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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 4, 2024 23:05:56 GMT
I’m going to talk like I’m not caring about human life for this bit. Which isn’t the case but it’s where my thinking was and is now on what I perceive to be the wider thing here. Israel had a massive open goal to garner international sympathy and by that I mean from governments that are usually opposed to them or from the majority of the public in the world who I would argue weren’t big fans of Israel to start with. And my God they have fucked it. I genuinely thought it would be difficult for Israel to be more hated than they were before the 7th October attack but my word they’ve done it. If they played it right they could have done a lot but this has gone so badly. And despite knowing that atrocities are being committed our shitehawks still back that tyrant Netanyahu. Biden has no control over him despite thinking he did and just what a shit show. And what for? On another note If Iran isn’t bluffing it’ll be interesting to see how the Israeli defences cope about the forthcoming barrage they’re gonna get. It’s about the best art defence system in the world so will have a lot of eyes on it for lessons to be learned. Fair play to you for changing your position slightly based on how things have transversed. Agree with alot of that. I think they had every right to go after them initially but as I said at the time they were creating a pr disaster. And again I know this sounds heartless but it is taking the emotion of the numbers of dead out of it and trying to look at it from a more geopolitical angle rather than just the callous loss of life. Like with Ukraine and Putin, Israel’s only real good get out is Trump as long as Netanyahu is in power.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 5, 2024 6:58:32 GMT
See their military have evaded a refugee camp to commit more senseless murders. Quite ironic if you ask me. Sorry for being antisemitic. Because any criticism of Israel is apparently antisemitism. I agree with OldStokie it is the Zionists both Inside and Outside Israel that are driving this hard line provocation There are many Jews again Inside and Outside Israel who do not agree with the Netanyahu Regime which he is pursuing not only to keep himself out of Gaol The shameful vote in HoC is hardly surprising given the Zionist reach and any dissenter is attacked like by a Pack of Dogs Those opposing BDS have conveniently short memories of how it was ultimately effective against another Apartheid Regime South Africa it was. Let's be honest about the Elephant in the Room. While Israel is under the Protectorate of World Policeman US under the influence of the Jewish Lobby (now saying THAT is apparently antisemitic) Since 2015 there have been 15 UN General Assembly Resolutions against Israel, all ignored, there have been 13 against all other Countries in the World including 6 against Russia The Two State solution doesn't work, not least because of a dirty great big Wall cutting off Palestine. The Oslo Accord isn't fit for purpose Moving forward it needs to be a shared Secular space with equal rights, including the refugees, for all. You have a unique insight into this given where you reside. At present a solution seems far away and there are very entrenched views on both sides with Hamas being supported by Iran equally determined to obliterate the State of Israel How can you claim the two state solution doesn't work when there isn't a two state solution in place? At the moment Palestine is not a state - Palestinians live in enclaves with limited political independence under the rule of the Isreali government. A two state solution means giving Palestinians the status of an internationally recognised independent state. This is viewed by the majority of nations (including the UK) as the preferred long term solution. A shared secular space is a lovely idea but there isn't actually that much support for it on the ground. A two state solution is the most likely long term solution but it will require the Palestinians in Gaza to ditch Hamas as their representatives and for there is be a change of government in Israel.
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Post by gawa on Apr 5, 2024 9:01:31 GMT
It's a beautiful sight to see. Pleased that people are now fighting back against the smear campaigns.
Can't wait to see Farages apology next 😅
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Israel
Apr 5, 2024 9:36:18 GMT
Post by mrcoke on Apr 5, 2024 9:36:18 GMT
I agree with OldStokie it is the Zionists both Inside and Outside Israel that are driving this hard line provocation There are many Jews again Inside and Outside Israel who do not agree with the Netanyahu Regime which he is pursuing not only to keep himself out of Gaol The shameful vote in HoC is hardly surprising given the Zionist reach and any dissenter is attacked like by a Pack of Dogs Those opposing BDS have conveniently short memories of how it was ultimately effective against another Apartheid Regime South Africa it was. Let's be honest about the Elephant in the Room. While Israel is under the Protectorate of World Policeman US under the influence of the Jewish Lobby (now saying THAT is apparently antisemitic) Since 2015 there have been 15 UN General Assembly Resolutions against Israel, all ignored, there have been 13 against all other Countries in the World including 6 against Russia The Two State solution doesn't work, not least because of a dirty great big Wall cutting off Palestine. The Oslo Accord isn't fit for purpose Moving forward it needs to be a shared Secular space with equal rights, including the refugees, for all. You have a unique insight into this given where you reside. At present a solution seems far away and there are very entrenched views on both sides with Hamas being supported by Iran equally determined to obliterate the State of Israel How can you claim the two state solution doesn't work when there isn't a two state solution in place? At the moment Palestine is not a state - Palestinians live in enclaves with limited political independence under the rule of the Isreali government. A two state solution means giving Palestinians the status of an internationally recognised independent state. This is viewed by the majority of nations (including the UK) as the preferred long term solution. A shared secular space is a lovely idea but there isn't actually that much support for it on the ground. A two state solution is the most likely long term solution but it will require the Palestinians in Gaza to ditch Hamas as their representatives and for there is be a change of government in Israel. How do the Palestinians in Gaza ditch Hamas, who have seized power, got rid of the opposition, and now they are under attack hide amongst women and children and under hospitals? The centre ground wants a 2 state solution, but the extremists on both sides want to exterminate the other side and take total control and have no regard for human life, liberty, or rights. Neither side is prepared to accept a compromise. Maybe one day they will all become true Christians and believe in brotherly love.
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Israel
Apr 5, 2024 10:13:42 GMT
Post by wannabee on Apr 5, 2024 10:13:42 GMT
I agree with OldStokie it is the Zionists both Inside and Outside Israel that are driving this hard line provocation There are many Jews again Inside and Outside Israel who do not agree with the Netanyahu Regime which he is pursuing not only to keep himself out of Gaol The shameful vote in HoC is hardly surprising given the Zionist reach and any dissenter is attacked like by a Pack of Dogs Those opposing BDS have conveniently short memories of how it was ultimately effective against another Apartheid Regime South Africa it was. Let's be honest about the Elephant in the Room. While Israel is under the Protectorate of World Policeman US under the influence of the Jewish Lobby (now saying THAT is apparently antisemitic) Since 2015 there have been 15 UN General Assembly Resolutions against Israel, all ignored, there have been 13 against all other Countries in the World including 6 against Russia The Two State solution doesn't work, not least because of a dirty great big Wall cutting off Palestine. The Oslo Accord isn't fit for purpose Moving forward it needs to be a shared Secular space with equal rights, including the refugees, for all. You have a unique insight into this given where you reside. At present a solution seems far away and there are very entrenched views on both sides with Hamas being supported by Iran equally determined to obliterate the State of Israel How can you claim the two state solution doesn't work when there isn't a two state solution in place? At the moment Palestine is not a state - Palestinians live in enclaves with limited political independence under the rule of the Isreali government. A two state solution means giving Palestinians the status of an internationally recognised independent state. This is viewed by the majority of nations (including the UK) as the preferred long term solution. A shared secular space is a lovely idea but there isn't actually that much support for it on the ground. A two state solution is the most likely long term solution but it will require the Palestinians in Gaza to ditch Hamas as their representatives and for there is be a change of government in Israel. Although my post was pre October 7 Kissinger who negotiated the Peace Treaty after Yom Kippur War which led to UN Resolutions 242 and 338 and ultimately the Oslo Accords of 1993 and 1995 reached the same conclusion post October 7 in his final interview. www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/12/02/henry-kissinger-interview-israel-hamas-war-00129374#:~:text=In%20one%20of%20the%20final,U.S.%20must%20reconcile%20with%20China. A Two State Solution is a lovely idea but there isn't actually that much support for it on the ground. The conditions for a lasting Peace were not there when I made my comment in July 2023 and they certainly are not there today. The Peel Commission was the original proposer of the Two State solution, a typically British solution when it finds it can no longer control a former Colony. It was grudgingly accepted by Israel but never and not to this day by the Arab States. It led to the 1947/48 Conflict resulting in the Nakba with millions of Palestinians displaced and also displacement of 800,000 Jews from Arab Lands and subsequently the 1967.and 1973 Conflicts and October 7 brings us up to date and the Genocidal reaction of Israel I'm sure you're aware that Gawa lives in NI which was why I referenced the Two State Solution in his part of the World. There are many similarities. This was an earlier British botched solution in a former Colony. The NI Statelet was artificially created to ensure for ever a Protestant Majority and it Governed on that basis. Partition was accepted by the NI Protestant Majority but never by Nationalists North or South. A Civil War occurred in the South between those that wished to continue the conflict for a United Ireland and those that accepted it as an interim solution, much like Kissinger viewed his Peace negotiations as Interim Solutions. The pragmatists in the South prevailed but it didn't stop intermittent acts of Terrorism happening in NI. The Governance in NI as an Apartheid Statelet eventually led to the "Troubles". It wasn't until both sides Britain/IRA. reached the conclusion that neither could win an outright Military Victory that a Peace Formula Good Friday Agreement. The GFA is deliberately a short and ambiguous document as very few even many Unionists believe it is anything other than an interim solution which ultimately leads to a One State United Ireland. The reason for this reality is purely down to Demographics which was not foreseen when the NI Statelet was established in that already the number of NationalIsts outnumber Unionists albeit not all favour unification it is inevitable in time Israel's biggest paranoia Is obviously being surrounded by Arab States but next on the list is Demographics where the Palestinian Population is growing at a much quicker rate than the Jewish one. This necessitates importation of Settlers to take over Palestinian Lands in West Bank and also purges as we are seeing now in Gaza. Gaza itself was an experiment by Ariel Sharon to see how a Two State Solution might work He was shot for his troubles by Right Wing Zionists. The Arab world is not yet ready to accept a Two State Solution never mind the Palestinians. The Arab World generally has never been overly supportive of Palestinians millions of whom now live in Refugee Camps in Syria Jordon and Lebanon after the Nakba and. 1967 and 1973 reversals. They are happy to use, particularly Iran, Palestinians in a Proxy engagement with Israel. Any Peaceful solution is further away today than ever
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Post by wannabee on Apr 5, 2024 10:30:57 GMT
How can you claim the two state solution doesn't work when there isn't a two state solution in place? At the moment Palestine is not a state - Palestinians live in enclaves with limited political independence under the rule of the Isreali government. A two state solution means giving Palestinians the status of an internationally recognised independent state. This is viewed by the majority of nations (including the UK) as the preferred long term solution. A shared secular space is a lovely idea but there isn't actually that much support for it on the ground. A two state solution is the most likely long term solution but it will require the Palestinians in Gaza to ditch Hamas as their representatives and for there is be a change of government in Israel. How do the Palestinians in Gaza ditch Hamas, who have seized power, got rid of the opposition, and now they are under attack hide amongst women and children and under hospitals? The centre ground wants a 2 state solution, but the extremists on both sides want to exterminate the other side and take total control and have no regard for human life, liberty, or rights. Neither side is prepared to accept a compromise. Maybe one day they will all become true Christians and believe in brotherly love. I'll keep it short as I wrote at length on this above Christianity in one part of the UK didn't prevent one Bunch of Christians Murdering and Killing another Bunch of Christians and vice versa purely based on their allegiance to a particular Branch of Christianity Never mind those lovable Crusaders Conflicts may not be rooted strictly in religion and instead may be a cover for the underlying secular power, ethnic, social, political, and economic reasons for conflict
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Post by gawa on Apr 5, 2024 12:00:19 GMT
Oh look just another mistake to add to the other 40,000 mistakes.
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Post by gawa on Apr 5, 2024 12:39:15 GMT
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Israel
Apr 5, 2024 13:45:23 GMT
Post by mrcoke on Apr 5, 2024 13:45:23 GMT
A couple of Christian friends of mine have just returned from a holiday in Israel. They toured the country visiting religious sites. They were greeted very well by the locals they met. The main thing they observed from the war was that all the Israel hotels are over-flowing, many having far more occupants than their proper capacity. The reason was the amount of people displaced from the border regions (as happened in southern coastal England in WWII) or displaced because of their homes damaged/destroyed (as happened with many residents of major UK cities like London in WWII). They did hear some gunfire/shelling? from the North. Their guide was armed for their protection. It is wrong to tar every Israeli with the same brush. There are over a score of political parties and 10 in their parliament. Their government is no more representative of the population than the UK Tory government, of which we have had 5 different leaders in the last 10 years. No matter whether you come from the UK, US, France, Germany, or Israel you get the politicians you get. The Israel population is highly diverse like the UK's. www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/Further to my above post above, My friends who visited Israel raised the question of the UK supplying weapons to Israel. They are retired anaesthetist consultant and midwife so know nothing about defence issues as indeed neither do I, but they had been talking to someone who is. That person told them that refusing to supply weapons to Israel would not only be of no significant effect, if Israel took reciprocal action it could be very damaging to the UK's defence. Apparently UK arms supplies to Israel are minimal which appears the case according to the BBC: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68737412Where's apparently Israel suppliers significant important weapons/systems to the UK. So we could actually end up weakening our our defence.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 5, 2024 13:52:46 GMT
A couple of Christian friends of mine have just returned from a holiday in Israel. They toured the country visiting religious sites. They were greeted very well by the locals they met. The main thing they observed from the war was that all the Israel hotels are over-flowing, many having far more occupants than their proper capacity. The reason was the amount of people displaced from the border regions (as happened in southern coastal England in WWII) or displaced because of their homes damaged/destroyed (as happened with many residents of major UK cities like London in WWII). They did hear some gunfire/shelling? from the North. Their guide was armed for their protection. It is wrong to tar every Israeli with the same brush. There are over a score of political parties and 10 in their parliament. Their government is no more representative of the population than the UK Tory government, of which we have had 5 different leaders in the last 10 years. No matter whether you come from the UK, US, France, Germany, or Israel you get the politicians you get. The Israel population is highly diverse like the UK's. www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/Further to my above post above, My friends who visited Israel raised the question of the UK supplying weapons to Israel. They are retired anaesthetist consultant and midwife so know nothing about defence issues as indeed neither do I, but they had been talking to someone who is. That person told them that refusing to supply weapons to Israel would not only be of no significant effect, if Israel took reciprocal action it could be very damaging to the UK's defence. Apparently UK arms supplies to Israel are minimal which appears the case according to the BBC: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68737412Where's apparently Israel suppliers significant important weapons/systems to the UK. So we could actually end up weakening our our defence. So what you're saying is business over ethics at all times? 68% come from America and 26% from Germany but that's not the point. Canada, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, France, Australia and Japan think otherwise as they have banned all exports irrespective of how small they were.
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Apr 5, 2024 14:05:04 GMT
How many other airstrikes, which aren't investigated, go against the IDF's so called 'standard operating procedures'?
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Post by felonious on Apr 5, 2024 14:13:40 GMT
A couple of Christian friends of mine have just returned from a holiday in Israel. They toured the country visiting religious sites. They were greeted very well by the locals they met. The main thing they observed from the war was that all the Israel hotels are over-flowing, many having far more occupants than their proper capacity. The reason was the amount of people displaced from the border regions (as happened in southern coastal England in WWII) or displaced because of their homes damaged/destroyed (as happened with many residents of major UK cities like London in WWII). They did hear some gunfire/shelling? from the North. Their guide was armed for their protection. It is wrong to tar every Israeli with the same brush. There are over a score of political parties and 10 in their parliament. Their government is no more representative of the population than the UK Tory government, of which we have had 5 different leaders in the last 10 years. No matter whether you come from the UK, US, France, Germany, or Israel you get the politicians you get. The Israel population is highly diverse like the UK's. www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/Further to my above post above, My friends who visited Israel raised the question of the UK supplying weapons to Israel. They are retired anaesthetist consultant and midwife so know nothing about defence issues as indeed neither do I, but they had been talking to someone who is. That person told them that refusing to supply weapons to Israel would not only be of no significant effect, if Israel took reciprocal action it could be very damaging to the UK's defence. Apparently UK arms supplies to Israel are minimal which appears the case according to the BBC: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68737412Where's apparently Israel suppliers significant important weapons/systems to the UK. So we could actually end up weakening our our defence. We supply 0.02% of the arms to Israel. If we're buying anything off them then it needs to stop. I heard the above figures on the radio a few days back I must admit to being surprised how much blood Germany has on it's hands.
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Israel
Apr 5, 2024 14:17:22 GMT
Post by felonious on Apr 5, 2024 14:17:22 GMT
Fair play to you for changing your position slightly based on how things have transversed. Agree with alot of that. I think they had every right to go after them initially but as I said at the time they were creating a pr disaster. And again I know this sounds heartless but it is taking the emotion of the numbers of dead out of it and trying to look at it from a more geopolitical angle rather than just the callous loss of life. Like with Ukraine and Putin, Israel’s only real good get out is Trump as long as Netanyahu is in power. Whilst it's difficult to believe words that come out of Trump's mouth this was reported a few days ago as a negative for Israel. www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/04/trump-israel-gaza-netanyahu-comments/
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 5, 2024 15:48:49 GMT
Further to my above post above, My friends who visited Israel raised the question of the UK supplying weapons to Israel. They are retired anaesthetist consultant and midwife so know nothing about defence issues as indeed neither do I, but they had been talking to someone who is. That person told them that refusing to supply weapons to Israel would not only be of no significant effect, if Israel took reciprocal action it could be very damaging to the UK's defence. Apparently UK arms supplies to Israel are minimal which appears the case according to the BBC: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68737412Where's apparently Israel suppliers significant important weapons/systems to the UK. So we could actually end up weakening our our defence. We supply 0.02% of the arms to Israel. If we're buying anything off them then it needs to stop. I heard the above figures on the radio a few days back I must admit to being surprised how much blood Germany has on it's hands.
I think there's a reason why Germany supplies so many arms to Israel, in a word ... guilt.
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Israel
Apr 5, 2024 15:51:19 GMT
Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 5, 2024 15:51:19 GMT
We supply 0.02% of the arms to Israel. If we're buying anything off them then it needs to stop. I heard the above figures on the radio a few days back I must admit to being surprised how much blood Germany has on it's hands.
I think there's a reason why Germany supplies so many arms to Israel, in a word ... guilt.
It's crazy......
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Israel
Apr 5, 2024 15:52:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by serpico on Apr 5, 2024 15:52:33 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Apr 5, 2024 16:01:00 GMT
Further to my above post above, My friends who visited Israel raised the question of the UK supplying weapons to Israel. They are retired anaesthetist consultant and midwife so know nothing about defence issues as indeed neither do I, but they had been talking to someone who is. That person told them that refusing to supply weapons to Israel would not only be of no significant effect, if Israel took reciprocal action it could be very damaging to the UK's defence. Apparently UK arms supplies to Israel are minimal which appears the case according to the BBC: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68737412Where's apparently Israel suppliers significant important weapons/systems to the UK. So we could actually end up weakening our our defence. So what you're saying is business over ethics at all times? 68% come from America and 26% from Germany but that's not the point. Canada, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, France, Australia and Japan think otherwise as they have banned all exports irrespective of how small they were. The 0.02% is currently being misquoted as it only includes what UK Government sells to Israel It doesn't include Private UK Companies who Export to Israel under a General Licence who have no £ limit or obligation to report how much they Export and don't for Commercial reasons For instance it is known that 15% of the Components of the F-35 which are bombing Gaza every night are manufactured in UK It's hard to imagine if any other State Murdered 3 British Nationals that it would elicit such a muted Government reaction
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 5, 2024 16:01:29 GMT
I think there's a reason why Germany supplies so many arms to Israel, in a word ... guilt.
It's crazy......
Indeed PP.
I know it is apparently regarded as an antisemitic trope, to suggest that the Palestinian people are the ones who have to pay for Germany's guilt but I'm more than comfortable in suggesting as much and if other people want to call me antisemitic as a result of that suggestion, then it is what it is.
It just seems utterly incredible to me, that we have ultimately ended up with a second people's being persecuted, as a result of the wrongs perpetrated by the Nazi's originally.
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Israel
Apr 5, 2024 16:54:50 GMT
Post by felonious on Apr 5, 2024 16:54:50 GMT
So what you're saying is business over ethics at all times? 68% come from America and 26% from Germany but that's not the point. Canada, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, France, Australia and Japan think otherwise as they have banned all exports irrespective of how small they were. The 0.02% is currently being misquoted as it only includes what UK Government sells to Israel It doesn't include Private UK Companies who Export to Israel under a General Licence who have no £ limit or obligation to report how much they Export and don't for Commercial reasons For instance it is known that 15% of the Components of the F-35 which are bombing Gaza every night are manufactured in UK It's hard to imagine if any other State Murdered 3 British Nationals that it would elicit such a muted Government reaction Is not the 15% components included in the 68% (USA) above? Obviously as only a tiny percentage in itself I wasn't aware of the extent of the Brighton factory protests presumably something else not newsworthy. Arms sales are queried here particularly by Jeremy Corbyn. hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2023-12-12/debates/BF12F435-8E9A-44B0-AA34-ADA9D01616E0/ArmsExportLicencesIsraelSurely they can't continue despite the apathy of the majority of the British public?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 5, 2024 16:54:58 GMT
How can you claim the two state solution doesn't work when there isn't a two state solution in place? At the moment Palestine is not a state - Palestinians live in enclaves with limited political independence under the rule of the Isreali government. A two state solution means giving Palestinians the status of an internationally recognised independent state. This is viewed by the majority of nations (including the UK) as the preferred long term solution. A shared secular space is a lovely idea but there isn't actually that much support for it on the ground. A two state solution is the most likely long term solution but it will require the Palestinians in Gaza to ditch Hamas as their representatives and for there is be a change of government in Israel. How do the Palestinians in Gaza ditch Hamas, who have seized power, got rid of the opposition, and now they are under attack hide amongst women and children and under hospitals? The centre ground wants a 2 state solution, but the extremists on both sides want to exterminate the other side and take total control and have no regard for human life, liberty, or rights. Neither side is prepared to accept a compromise. Maybe one day they will all become true Christians and believe in brotherly love. There are people in Gaza and in Isreal who want a peaceful solution and the only way that is going to happen is for them to adopt representatives who are prepared to work towards that solution. The alternative is all out war which in practice means the people of Gaza will be slaughtered. Worst case scenario is Iran gets sucked in and the whole area kicks off. There are moves behind the scenes to turn Fatah into a technocratic political administration capable of taking over from Hamas in Gaza. For that to succeed the people of Gaza will have to reject Hamas. It would also require a change of of government in Israel. I never claimed this was easy but as far as I can see it is the only practical solution and it actually has backing in the west and in some areas of the middle east. As a solution it's a damn sight more likely to to lead to a peaceful solution than the Jews and Muslims becoming Christians - firstly because they won't and secondly because the track record of Christians living in peace and harmony is a complete nonsense. Christianity and brotherly love? When has that ever happened?
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Israel
Apr 5, 2024 18:30:27 GMT
Post by wannabee on Apr 5, 2024 18:30:27 GMT
The 0.02% is currently being misquoted as it only includes what UK Government sells to Israel It doesn't include Private UK Companies who Export to Israel under a General Licence who have no £ limit or obligation to report how much they Export and don't for Commercial reasons For instance it is known that 15% of the Components of the F-35 which are bombing Gaza every night are manufactured in UK It's hard to imagine if any other State Murdered 3 British Nationals that it would elicit such a muted Government reaction Is not the 15% components included in the 68% (USA) above? Obviously as only a tiny percentage in itself I wasn't aware of the extent of the Brighton factory protests presumably something else not newsworthy. Arms sales are queried here particularly by Jeremy Corbyn. hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2023-12-12/debates/BF12F435-8E9A-44B0-AA34-ADA9D01616E0/ArmsExportLicencesIsraelSurely they can't continue despite the apathy of the majority of the British public? You may be correct but this would still underestimate the value of Arms sales to Israel as its done indirectly? The whole Arms Trade seems to be opaque ostensibly for commercial reasons but more likely for secrecy CAAT attempt to get some level of accuracy but even they have to rely on estimates and extrapolation You may be able to navigate through their various reports better than I caat.org.uk/news/statement-on-uk-arms-exports-to-israel/
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 6, 2024 7:43:57 GMT
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Post by gawa on Apr 6, 2024 13:26:10 GMT
Oh look amongst all the criticism of Israel suddenly a wild hostage is recovered. One who was "murdered" according to the IDF.
By who I don't know. One of another 40k to either be shelled or starved I'm sure but no doubt the IDF will try to push propoganda on this.
The relatives of the person are already on social media blaming the Israeli government.
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Post by gawa on Apr 6, 2024 17:02:35 GMT
When support from the morally redundant Boris is considered moral clarity you know you're on the wrong side.
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Israel
Apr 6, 2024 18:16:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 6, 2024 18:16:59 GMT
How can you claim the two state solution doesn't work when there isn't a two state solution in place? At the moment Palestine is not a state - Palestinians live in enclaves with limited political independence under the rule of the Isreali government. A two state solution means giving Palestinians the status of an internationally recognised independent state. This is viewed by the majority of nations (including the UK) as the preferred long term solution. A shared secular space is a lovely idea but there isn't actually that much support for it on the ground. A two state solution is the most likely long term solution but it will require the Palestinians in Gaza to ditch Hamas as their representatives and for there is be a change of government in Israel. Although my post was pre October 7 Kissinger who negotiated the Peace Treaty after Yom Kippur War which led to UN Resolutions 242 and 338 and ultimately the Oslo Accords of 1993 and 1995 reached the same conclusion post October 7 in his final interview. www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/12/02/henry-kissinger-interview-israel-hamas-war-00129374#:~:text=In%20one%20of%20the%20final,U.S.%20must%20reconcile%20with%20China. A Two State Solution is a lovely idea but there isn't actually that much support for it on the ground. The conditions for a lasting Peace were not there when I made my comment in July 2023 and they certainly are not there today. The Peel Commission was the original proposer of the Two State solution, a typically British solution when it finds it can no longer control a former Colony. It was grudgingly accepted by Israel but never and not to this day by the Arab States. It led to the 1947/48 Conflict resulting in the Nakba with millions of Palestinians displaced and also displacement of 800,000 Jews from Arab Lands and subsequently the 1967.and 1973 Conflicts and October 7 brings us up to date and the Genocidal reaction of Israel I'm sure you're aware that Gawa lives in NI which was why I referenced the Two State Solution in his part of the World. There are many similarities. This was an earlier British botched solution in a former Colony. The NI Statelet was artificially created to ensure for ever a Protestant Majority and it Governed on that basis. Partition was accepted by the NI Protestant Majority but never by Nationalists North or South. A Civil War occurred in the South between those that wished to continue the conflict for a United Ireland and those that accepted it as an interim solution, much like Kissinger viewed his Peace negotiations as Interim Solutions. The pragmatists in the South prevailed but it didn't stop intermittent acts of Terrorism happening in NI. The Governance in NI as an Apartheid Statelet eventually led to the "Troubles". It wasn't until both sides Britain/IRA. reached the conclusion that neither could win an outright Military Victory that a Peace Formula Good Friday Agreement. The GFA is deliberately a short and ambiguous document as very few even many Unionists believe it is anything other than an interim solution which ultimately leads to a One State United Ireland. The reason for this reality is purely down to Demographics which was not foreseen when the NI Statelet was established in that already the number of NationalIsts outnumber Unionists albeit not all favour unification it is inevitable in time Israel's biggest paranoia Is obviously being surrounded by Arab States but next on the list is Demographics where the Palestinian Population is growing at a much quicker rate than the Jewish one. This necessitates importation of Settlers to take over Palestinian Lands in West Bank and also purges as we are seeing now in Gaza. Gaza itself was an experiment by Ariel Sharon to see how a Two State Solution might work He was shot for his troubles by Right Wing Zionists. The Arab world is not yet ready to accept a Two State Solution never mind the Palestinians. The Arab World generally has never been overly supportive of Palestinians millions of whom now live in Refugee Camps in Syria Jordon and Lebanon after the Nakba and. 1967 and 1973 reversals. They are happy to use, particularly Iran, Palestinians in a Proxy engagement with Israel. Any Peaceful solution is further away today than ever The position of a number of Arab states is that they will not recognise Israel until Palestine is established as a separate state and the US are working behind the scenes to get the likes of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Egypt to support a two state solution - see www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-says-there-will-be-no-diplomatic-relations-with-israel-without-an-2024-02-07/. No-one is talking about a unified Israel. The two state is the only option being pursued on the international stage. It may be a long way off but a two state solution is definitely on the table and behind the scenes some big players from the west and the Arab world are working to that end.
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Israel
Apr 6, 2024 19:19:26 GMT
Post by wannabee on Apr 6, 2024 19:19:26 GMT
Although my post was pre October 7 Kissinger who negotiated the Peace Treaty after Yom Kippur War which led to UN Resolutions 242 and 338 and ultimately the Oslo Accords of 1993 and 1995 reached the same conclusion post October 7 in his final interview. www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/12/02/henry-kissinger-interview-israel-hamas-war-00129374#:~:text=In%20one%20of%20the%20final,U.S.%20must%20reconcile%20with%20China. A Two State Solution is a lovely idea but there isn't actually that much support for it on the ground. The conditions for a lasting Peace were not there when I made my comment in July 2023 and they certainly are not there today. The Peel Commission was the original proposer of the Two State solution, a typically British solution when it finds it can no longer control a former Colony. It was grudgingly accepted by Israel but never and not to this day by the Arab States. It led to the 1947/48 Conflict resulting in the Nakba with millions of Palestinians displaced and also displacement of 800,000 Jews from Arab Lands and subsequently the 1967.and 1973 Conflicts and October 7 brings us up to date and the Genocidal reaction of Israel I'm sure you're aware that Gawa lives in NI which was why I referenced the Two State Solution in his part of the World. There are many similarities. This was an earlier British botched solution in a former Colony. The NI Statelet was artificially created to ensure for ever a Protestant Majority and it Governed on that basis. Partition was accepted by the NI Protestant Majority but never by Nationalists North or South. A Civil War occurred in the South between those that wished to continue the conflict for a United Ireland and those that accepted it as an interim solution, much like Kissinger viewed his Peace negotiations as Interim Solutions. The pragmatists in the South prevailed but it didn't stop intermittent acts of Terrorism happening in NI. The Governance in NI as an Apartheid Statelet eventually led to the "Troubles". It wasn't until both sides Britain/IRA. reached the conclusion that neither could win an outright Military Victory that a Peace Formula Good Friday Agreement. The GFA is deliberately a short and ambiguous document as very few even many Unionists believe it is anything other than an interim solution which ultimately leads to a One State United Ireland. The reason for this reality is purely down to Demographics which was not foreseen when the NI Statelet was established in that already the number of NationalIsts outnumber Unionists albeit not all favour unification it is inevitable in time Israel's biggest paranoia Is obviously being surrounded by Arab States but next on the list is Demographics where the Palestinian Population is growing at a much quicker rate than the Jewish one. This necessitates importation of Settlers to take over Palestinian Lands in West Bank and also purges as we are seeing now in Gaza. Gaza itself was an experiment by Ariel Sharon to see how a Two State Solution might work He was shot for his troubles by Right Wing Zionists. The Arab world is not yet ready to accept a Two State Solution never mind the Palestinians. The Arab World generally has never been overly supportive of Palestinians millions of whom now live in Refugee Camps in Syria Jordon and Lebanon after the Nakba and. 1967 and 1973 reversals. They are happy to use, particularly Iran, Palestinians in a Proxy engagement with Israel. Any Peaceful solution is further away today than ever The position of a number of Arab states is that they will not recognise Israel until Palestine is established as a separate state and the US are working behind the scenes to get the likes of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Egypt to support a two state solution - see www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-says-there-will-be-no-diplomatic-relations-with-israel-without-an-2024-02-07/. No-one is talking about a unified Israel. The two state is the only option being pursued on the international stage. It may be a long way off but a two state solution is definitely on the table and behind the scenes some big players from the west and the Arab world are working to that end. One State exists currently de facto with Gaza, even before October 7, under Siege and the West Bank and East Jerusalem under Occupation. This besides a multitude of UN Resolutions Platitudes about a Two State Solution muttered by the West for almost 30 years are a cover for doing nothing and turning a blind eye Israel withdrawing to the 1967 Boundaries for Saudi recognition are Fsntasy Island stuff, I have a greater chance of winning the Euro Millions Support for Hamas since October 7 has surged in West Bank with most Palestinians wanting PLO to be disbanded. They most likely will get their wish when the 88 year old Mahmoud Abbas pops off unless the US can install another Puppet in his place to allegedly represent the Palestinians. I'm quite sure a majority of Palestinians would accept and welcome a Two State Solution on 1967 Borders, not Hamas, but for the foreseeable future unless imposed Militarily by US/UN its a non runner As i say, any Peaceful solution is further away today than ever
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Israel
Apr 6, 2024 20:00:26 GMT
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 6, 2024 20:00:26 GMT
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Israel
Apr 6, 2024 22:10:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 6, 2024 22:10:30 GMT
The position of a number of Arab states is that they will not recognise Israel until Palestine is established as a separate state and the US are working behind the scenes to get the likes of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Egypt to support a two state solution - see www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-says-there-will-be-no-diplomatic-relations-with-israel-without-an-2024-02-07/. No-one is talking about a unified Israel. The two state is the only option being pursued on the international stage. It may be a long way off but a two state solution is definitely on the table and behind the scenes some big players from the west and the Arab world are working to that end. One State exists currently de facto with Gaza, even before October 7, under Siege and the West Bank and East Jerusalem under Occupation. This besides a multitude of UN Resolutions Platitudes about a Two State Solution muttered by the West for almost 30 years are a cover for doing nothing and turning a blind eye Israel withdrawing to the 1967 Boundaries for Saudi recognition are Fsntasy Island stuff, I have a greater chance of winning the Euro Millions Support for Hamas since October 7 has surged in West Bank with most Palestinians wanting PLO to be disbanded. They most likely will get their wish when the 88 year old Mahmoud Abbas pops off unless the US can install another Puppet in his place to allegedly represent the Palestinians. I'm quite sure a majority of Palestinians would accept and welcome a Two State Solution on 1967 Borders, not Hamas, but for the foreseeable future unless imposed Militarily by US/UN its a non runner As i say, any Peaceful solution is further away today than ever So basically you have nothing to offer by way of a solution and your entire posting history on this subject is simply a catalogue of futile despair. If your analysis is correct the only outcome is the annihilation of the people of Gaza or the intervention of Iran and nuclear war. What exactly is the point of your posts? I know full well the difficulties of implementing a two state solution but at least I'm offering the possibility of a solution. You offer nothing.
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Post by wannabee on Apr 6, 2024 22:59:57 GMT
One State exists currently de facto with Gaza, even before October 7, under Siege and the West Bank and East Jerusalem under Occupation. This besides a multitude of UN Resolutions Platitudes about a Two State Solution muttered by the West for almost 30 years are a cover for doing nothing and turning a blind eye Israel withdrawing to the 1967 Boundaries for Saudi recognition are Fsntasy Island stuff, I have a greater chance of winning the Euro Millions Support for Hamas since October 7 has surged in West Bank with most Palestinians wanting PLO to be disbanded. They most likely will get their wish when the 88 year old Mahmoud Abbas pops off unless the US can install another Puppet in his place to allegedly represent the Palestinians. I'm quite sure a majority of Palestinians would accept and welcome a Two State Solution on 1967 Borders, not Hamas, but for the foreseeable future unless imposed Militarily by US/UN its a non runner As i say, any Peaceful solution is further away today than ever So basically you have nothing to offer by way of a solution and your entire posting history on this subject is simply a catalogue of futile despair. If your analysis is correct the only outcome is the annihilation of the people of Gaza or the intervention of Iran and nuclear war. What exactly is the point of your posts? I know full well the difficulties of implementing a two state solution but at least I'm offering the possibility of a solution. You offer nothing. Your pomposity that an obscure Football Forum can offer a solution to a 75 year old Middle East Conflict is something to behold I'm not offering a solution, I'm presenting the facts as they are. You are presenting a proposal that neither of the combatants are willing to accept I will half credit your analysis that one possible outcome is the annihilation or possibly dispersment of Palestinians in Gaza. Are you not aware ocean front plots on Gaza Strip are being auctioned in Tel Aviv and New York? The Oil and Gas reserves off the Gaza Marine are also being looked at enviously. I think it unlikely but possible that Iran would launch a Neuclear Strike on Israel in support of Palestinians but I'm quite sure both this and the above scenario have been worked out in the War Rooms of the Pentagon as to which provides the best strategic advantage to US Interests Wake up and smell the Coffee, US will provide Israel with enough Military Hardware to maintain the equilibrium in the Middle East and keep the Oil flowing on the assumption that if either side were to gain a Military advantage they would wipe the other out. The Palestinians are collateral damage and will remain so unless the US Electorate or wider Western Electorate can't stomach the Genocide any longer Netanyahu has gone off the Reservation, normally by now a US President would have reigned him in but a combination of a senile US President and a Israeli Prime Minister who when he stops the blood letting and steps down faces years of litigation to avoid going to Gaol has created a perfect storm.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 7, 2024 17:56:34 GMT
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