|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 20, 2024 12:16:22 GMT
Genocide For me Paul, that's why the two State solution ( which I used to believe in) will no longer work. Israel would not allow what they see as a rogue state to exist on their border. The excuse will be that Hamas have vowed to destroy Israel, and they will make no distinction between Palestinians and Hamas. Unfortunately a further long-term implication( which I have previously posted) is that I believe people will cease to make a distinction between Jews and Zionists and between Palestinians and Hamas ( which will simply be reduced to " terrrorists), things will be polarised, and not just in the Middle East. The two state solution HAS to work, until it does, the conflict will continue. In a 100 years time, school children will be taught about one of the darkest periods in the West's history, the time that it turned it's back on the Palestinian people. And (as I've said many times on here) that will only begin with a fundamental shift in US and UK foreign policy. When that will happen, I have absolutely no idea but ultimately, it will happen because it has to happen.
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 20, 2024 12:23:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 20, 2024 12:23:14 GMT
Genocide For me Paul, that's why the two State solution ( which I used to believe in) will no longer work. Israel would not allow what they see as a rogue state to exist on their border. The excuse will be that Hamas have vowed to destroy Israel, and they will make no distinction between Palestinians and Hamas. Unfortunately a further long-term implication( which I have previously posted) is that I believe people will cease to make a distinction between Jews and Zionists and between Palestinians and Hamas ( which will simply be reduced to " terrrorists), things will be polarised, and not just in the Middle East. The two state solution HAS to work, until it does, the conflict will continue. In a 100 years time, school children will be taught about one of the darkest periods in the West's history, the time that it turned it's back on the Palestinian people. And (as I've said many times on here) that will only begin with a fundamental shift in US and UK foreign policy. When that will happen, I have absolutely no idea but ultimately, it will happen because it has to happen. Unfortunately Paul, I don't think it would now. I think conflict between the two States would continue OR it would be two States in name only ( I think Israel would " oversee" security), I used to believe in it and can't think of a better solution . One thing ...where would the borders be?
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 20, 2024 12:28:33 GMT
via mobile
gawa likes this
Post by foster on Jan 20, 2024 12:28:33 GMT
Wannabee , when I responded to your post I wasn't particularly picking up on the use of the word " apologist"....I just genuinely can't recall any strong support whatsoever for what Israel are doing, so wondered what I'd missed.It still does seem to me thst there is almost general agreement that what Israel are doing is abhorent. I posted on Oct 8th Unfortunately the Hamas attack might give Israel the excuse to virtually annihilate the West Bank and Gaza strip, given the West's support for Israel. Which could be interpreted as genocide. In fairness to Bayern he has said that he condemns both sides....I don't know what more he can do, perhaps people don't believe him. Perhaps we always think there is a hidden agenda, I think the reasons for not posting on a thread could be many fold.....not being interested, not agreeing but not wanting to feel as though you are being attacked, someone has already said what you would have said, For me there are a lot of people more knowledgeable and the time factor....you just know if you post something you might be embarking on a two day argument, often on repeated back and forth points( Brexit). I am grateful to the posts of many on here, you included, for insights and information I would not already have ( I don't have a telly, so don't watch mainstream media)...this Israel thread and the Post office thread have been a credit to the posters and show the value of the Oatcake. Sometimes it gets too personal and people take sides instead of just sticking to the arguments. Plenty of people were excusing Israels actions and trying to justify them. And it wasn't just "woke lefties" who picked up on it either. Personally I've got more respect for those who have changed stance after following the conflict as some people seem too stubborn to do that.The destination of where you end up with your opinion is much more important than the journey. I genuinely don't remember you being particularly involved in this thread at the start which I think you admitted yourself, so not sure why you suddenly want to go on this crusade to say nobody was justifying Israels actions and that I'm an extremist with my views which nobody is on the same scale of Israels side. If you don't want to hear it from me, wannabe or another snowflake. Here's Foster calling it out Some real Israeli terror tactic sympathising whoppers appearing in this thread over the past couple of days. All I'll say is stop being racist and disregard skin colour and religion for a second, and then look at things from an objective point of view. I'm flattered that you're using an old post of mine to justify your POV in this discussion mate. Not sure how much weight it carrys though.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 20, 2024 12:33:20 GMT
It’s so important that as people continue to call Israel out on their actions they make a clear distinction between Zionists and Jews, that point can’t be made enough. Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. Anyone championing the Palestinian cause must be very vocal on that…… I think that is true Prestwich....but my point is that I think, in light of October 7th and subsequent events, people will do so , less and less....I'm not thinking about Posters on the EE board, but the wider world.....I hope I'm wrong Ki just want to EDIT this which does relate to order recent posts. I agree with everything you have said about the distinctions between Zionism/ Judaism, Hamas/Palestinian. and its importannce. You know much more about it than me and have explained it clearly and consistently....So I have not felt the need to post( possibly amongst other reasons). For what it’s worth the local Muslim and Jewish communities seem to have made a real concerted effort around Prestwich and the surrounding areas to stand in solidarity with one another at this time which is really heartwarming to see…..
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 20, 2024 13:07:19 GMT
I think that is true Prestwich....but my point is that I think, in light of October 7th and subsequent events, people will do so , less and less....I'm not thinking about Posters on the EE board, but the wider world.....I hope I'm wrong Ki just want to EDIT this which does relate to order recent posts. I agree with everything you have said about the distinctions between Zionism/ Judaism, Hamas/Palestinian. and its importannce. You know much more about it than me and have explained it clearly and consistently....So I have not felt the need to post( possibly amongst other reasons). For what it’s worth the local Muslim and Jewish communities seem to have made a real concerted effort around Prestwich and the surrounding areas to stand in solidarity with one another at this time which is really heartwarming to see….. When you say around " Prestwich " are you talking about yourself, the leader? And I think it is worth a lot.....as I say, I hope I'm wrong
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on Jan 20, 2024 13:23:39 GMT
Thank you Paul and Gawa, I already said I shouldn't have used the term Israeli Apologists and I regret it. For months we have been fed a line that using the phrase "From the River to the Sea" was proof positive that Hamas was intent on the annihilation of Nuclear Power Israel. The most frequent usage of this phrase reported in British Media was during the Pro Palestinian Rallies in London and it reached its Zeneth in the lead up to the Rememberance Weekend Some on here agreed swayed by the Media hype and the emotions attached to that Weekend, most did not. In fact the majority on this MB believed the opposite and Foster to his credit was one of the first to call it out that it was obvious Israe'ls intent was the Genocide of the Palestinian people (posted I believe 10th November) I thought it was obvious what my comment replied under your post Paul of Netanyahu uttering the very same phrase "From the River to the Sea" in his most recent speech describing what the Final Solution should be I shall be less cryptic in future Wannabee , when I responded to your post I wasn't particularly picking up on the use of the word " apologist"....I just genuinely can't recall any strong support whatsoever for what Israel are doing, so wondered what I'd missed.It still does seem to me thst there is almost general agreement that what Israel are doing is abhorent. I posted on Oct 8th Unfortunately the Hamas attack might give Israel the excuse to virtually annihilate the West Bank and Gaza strip, given the West's support for Israel. Which could be interpreted as genocide. In fairness to Bayern he has said that he condemns both sides....I don't know what more he can do, perhaps people don't believe him. Perhaps we always think there is a hidden agenda, I think the reasons for not posting on a thread could be many fold.....not being interested, not agreeing but not wanting to feel as though you are being attacked, someone has already said what you would have said, For me there are a lot of people more knowledgeable and the time factor....you just know if you post something you might be embarking on a two day argument, often on repeated back and forth points( Brexit). I am grateful to the posts of many on here, you included, for insights and information I would not already have ( I don't have a telly, so don't watch mainstream media)...this Israel thread and the Post office thread have been a credit to the posters and show the value of the Oatcake. Sometimes it gets too personal and people take sides instead of just sticking to the arguments. BJR we have been at cross purposes since my original post and as I made it its my problem I wasn’t clear. I was talking about the Politicians and Commentators but that's not to say there weren't some on her happy to defend Israel's actions. On October 7 there was Universal condemnation of Hamas on here and generally, rightly so. When the excesses of Israel retaliation escalated some were prepared to justify it because Hamas's aim is to wipe out Israel and the phrase "From the River to the Sea" was conflated with this ambition, without having any means to do so. Whether people generally or on here still believe that is neither here nor there. As someone pointed out, on here they are just words. My Original post was to the speech by Netanyahu who specifically used the phrase "From the River to the Sea" and he most certainly has the Arsenal to do so. In the recent past when lunatic Israeli Ministers have called for the Nuking of Gaza or other extreme actions there can be plausible deniability it was misinterpreted, not Government Policy etc. When Netanyahu says it there can be no such ambiguity of Israels intent. Since Netanyahu made the speech western leaders and spokesmen for Biden, Sunak etc have been scrambling to get on the airwaves to dampen this down by saying the Two State Solution is the only game in Town and Palestine has a right to exist in self determination. None have condemned Netanyahu's speech. But these words of a two State Solution also are just that without any conviction to make it happen. The Oslo Accords of 1993 + 95 The PLO accepted Israels right to exist and peacefully coexist and Israel the same for Palestine. The Architect of Israels renaging on the Peace Treaty they signed is yeah Netanyahu This is hardly revelatory information The truth is that it's more important for US and its followers UK etc to have a strong allay in Middle East and the 5 Million Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank and a further 5 million refugees in neighbouring Countries are acceptable Collateral damage. Is it any wonder when US speaks out on International moral issues they are greeted with a large dollop of scepticism in BRICS and other Middle East, South American, African etc Countries The only Morality is self interest and a pliant media reinforce the message The latest narrative being pushed is that the conflict between Israel and Palestine started on October 7
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 20, 2024 14:50:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 20, 2024 14:50:08 GMT
I think that is true Prestwich....but my point is that I think, in light of October 7th and subsequent events, people will do so , less and less....I'm not thinking about Posters on the EE board, but the wider world.....I hope I'm wrong Ki just want to EDIT this which does relate to order recent posts. I agree with everything you have said about the distinctions between Zionism/ Judaism, Hamas/Palestinian. and its importannce. You know much more about it than me and have explained it clearly and consistently....So I have not felt the need to post( possibly amongst other reasons). For what it’s worth the local Muslim and Jewish communities seem to have made a real concerted effort around Prestwich and the surrounding areas to stand in solidarity with one another at this time which is really heartwarming to see….. Hopefully, non Zionist Jews will not be put in fear.....not that anyone should be in fear from a peaceful protest www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/biggest-ever-birmingham-protest-rally-28470248
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 20, 2024 21:16:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 20, 2024 21:16:06 GMT
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 20, 2024 21:59:02 GMT
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 20, 2024 22:02:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 20, 2024 22:02:56 GMT
|
|
|
Post by roylandstoke on Jan 21, 2024 8:24:16 GMT
Israel continues to destroy homes in the illegally occupied West Bank, where they have murdered over 350 and taken thousands hostage.
The Israelis don’t want to destroy Hamas they want to end the existence of Palestinians in what they see as greater Israel. The governments of UK and USA continue to provide support for thes crimes against humanity.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 21, 2024 14:40:35 GMT
Israel continues to destroy homes in the illegally occupied West Bank, where they have murdered over 350 and taken thousands hostage. The Israelis don’t want to destroy Hamas they want to end the existence of Palestinians in what they see as greater Israel. The governments of UK and USA continue to provide support for thes crimes against humanity. The West Bank question is the one that those with sympathies towards the Israeli regime on here seem unable or unwilling to answer, and as always the huge herd of stampeding elephants in the room……
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 21, 2024 14:49:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Jan 21, 2024 14:49:05 GMT
Sweden National Top News today:
"USA after three months of war: Israel is a long way from erasing Hamas"
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 21, 2024 17:45:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Jan 21, 2024 17:45:26 GMT
Debate in Swedish television today concerning allowing Israel to participate in the Eurovision or not.
The panel agreed upon you can't compare the attacking Russia and Belarus with the Israel situation. Last words though was: No matter how it all started with the attacks from Hamas, it doesn't justify Israel to kill children and women at this stage.
Saw earlier today that Natanjahu didn't want a two nations-solution. I find that depressing. Why can't they just live side by side in peace.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 22, 2024 1:41:27 GMT
Just so that we can all be absolutely clear on what the proposed end game is from both Israel AND the US ...
|
|
|
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 22, 2024 6:45:18 GMT
Just so that we can all be absolutely clear on what the proposed end game is from both Israel AND the US ... Idiotic from Netanyahu. The only way to sort this shit show out is to make the Gaza strip and West Bank a formal Palestinian state. Which would in turn be safer for both the Israeli and Palestinian people. Id love to hear the argument against a two state solution.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 22, 2024 23:19:01 GMT
Well this is pretty big ...
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on Jan 22, 2024 23:58:11 GMT
Well this is pretty big ... Not really Paul this is another opportunity for China to embarrass and expose US and UK hypocrisy It will go the same way as the last Vote by the Security Council calling for an immediate Ceasefire when 13 of the 15 members including 3 of the 5 Permanent Members China, Russia and France voted in favour UK sat on the fence and abstained and US Vetoed The excuse will be, now is not the right time as to who is the proper authority to represent Palestinians When the motion is defeated feverish meetings will take place as to the wording of a non binding resolution of the General Council which will be passed by an overwhelming majority Rinse and repeat.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 23, 2024 1:02:49 GMT
Well this is pretty big ... Not really Paul this is another opportunity for China to embarrass and expose US and UK hypocrisy It will go the same way as the last Vote by the Security Council calling for an immediate Ceasefire when 13 of the 15 members including 3 of the 5 Permanent Members China, Russia and France voted in favour UK sat on the fence and abstained and US Vetoed The excuse will be, now is not the right time as to who is the proper authority to represent Palestinians When the motion is defeated feverish meetings will take place as to the wording of a non binding resolution of the General Council which will be passed by an overwhelming majority Rinse and repeat. That's exactly why it's big. The US and the UK can no longer hide behind a (pretend) call for a two state solution, whilst at exactly the same time, use a veto against one of the permanent members' call for one, it will completely (and officially) undermine their credibility and expose their genuine intentions. The lie will be laid out there for all to see and there can no longer be any ambiguity about the intended 'final solution'.
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 23, 2024 1:28:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Jan 23, 2024 1:28:07 GMT
Just so that we can all be absolutely clear on what the proposed end game is from both Israel AND the US ... Idiotic from Netanyahu. The only way to sort this shit show out is to make the Gaza strip and West Bank a formal Palestinian state. Which would in turn be safer for both the Israeli and Palestinian people. Id love to hear the argument against a two state solution. The explanation was given the day before yesterday by Natanjahu and was presented on the Swedish National TV text-tv service function: If we give in for the terrorist's demands now, it would be like to have fought for nothing and a betray to all the sacrified soldiers.
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 23, 2024 2:09:07 GMT
Post by wannabee on Jan 23, 2024 2:09:07 GMT
Not really Paul this is another opportunity for China to embarrass and expose US and UK hypocrisy It will go the same way as the last Vote by the Security Council calling for an immediate Ceasefire when 13 of the 15 members including 3 of the 5 Permanent Members China, Russia and France voted in favour UK sat on the fence and abstained and US Vetoed The excuse will be, now is not the right time as to who is the proper authority to represent Palestinians When the motion is defeated feverish meetings will take place as to the wording of a non binding resolution of the General Council which will be passed by an overwhelming majority Rinse and repeat. That's exactly why it's big. The US and the UK can no longer hide behind a (pretend) call for a two state solution, whilst at exactly the same time, use a veto against one of the permanent members' call for one, it will completely (and officially) undermine their credibility and expose their genuine intentions. The lie will be laid out there for all to see and there can no longer be any ambiguity about the intended 'final solution'. Oh I agree with you Paul but it doesn't stop shit from happening Heretofore US adopted the role of World Policeman, because it could, and for good or evil depending on your point of view. Sometime after I have passed on China will likely assume that mantle. Cynically China may bring forward a resolution while at the same time persecuting the Uyghurs, Russia continues to bomb the shit out of Ukraine Civilians but support the Two State Solution and France having complied with a UN Resolution to stop polutiting Polynesia with Nuclear Fallout still managed to sink the Rainbow Warrior more than 10 years later. Maybe I'm just too old and cynical
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 23, 2024 2:37:40 GMT
The news anchor really should be better informed, during the cease-fire last year, the Houthis ceased all attacks, rendering her question completely redundant.
Myriam Francois spells out where we're at now perfectly ...
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 23, 2024 7:15:51 GMT
via mobile
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 23, 2024 7:15:51 GMT
Idiotic from Netanyahu. The only way to sort this shit show out is to make the Gaza strip and West Bank a formal Palestinian state. Which would in turn be safer for both the Israeli and Palestinian people. Id love to hear the argument against a two state solution. The explanation was given the day before yesterday by Natanjahu and was presented on the Swedish National TV text-tv service function: If we give in for the terrorist's demands now, it would be like to have fought for nothing and a betray to all the sacrified soldiers. In other words, he wants to save face which isn't good enough.
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 23, 2024 8:54:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 23, 2024 8:54:42 GMT
The IDF are blowing themselves up now as well…….
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 23, 2024 12:25:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Jan 23, 2024 12:25:28 GMT
The explanation was given the day before yesterday by Natanjahu and was presented on the Swedish National TV text-tv service function: If we give in for the terrorist's demands now, it would be like to have fought for nothing and a betray to all the sacrified soldiers. In other words, he wants to save face which isn't good enough. It's tragic.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 23, 2024 12:57:35 GMT
|
|
|
Israel
Jan 23, 2024 13:40:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 23, 2024 13:40:59 GMT
This is really good, I found myself nodding in agreement from the very first minute, until the very last. If anybody does have a few spare minutes, I couldn't recommend it enough. Thanks for the link PP.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 23, 2024 14:06:44 GMT
This is really good, I found myself nodding in agreement from the very first minute, until the very last. If anybody does have a few spare minutes, I couldn't recommend it enough. Thanks for the link PP. It would be great for our democracy if new outlets like Double Down became more mainstream, there are many others out there and you don't necessarily have to agree with their output but it just puts a lot of the more established outfits to shame......
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 24, 2024 14:11:39 GMT
Fundamental shift in the reporting of the events of October 7th by Israeli mainstream media, I wonder what has prompted such an about turn?
|
|
|
Post by maxplonk on Jan 24, 2024 14:38:43 GMT
This is really good, I found myself nodding in agreement from the very first minute, until the very last. If anybody does have a few spare minutes, I couldn't recommend it enough. Thanks for the link PP. It would be great for our democracy if new outlets like Double Down became more mainstream, there are many others out there and you don't necessarily have to agree with their output but it just puts a lot of the more established outfits to shame...... The Byline group definitely but the msm to shame.
|
|