|
|
Post by Gawa on Oct 31, 2022 11:57:16 GMT
Isn’t the biggest problem the stoking up of anger, whether it’s the right wing Mail, left wing Guardian or the extreme views of some on social media (from both sides). If you have someone who’s easily coerced and has issues it doesn’t take long for someone to act beyond typing on the internet and act out what they believe to be justice. Ultimately no one wins when these incidents happen other than those (on both sides) looking to use deaths / murder to push their political views even more. The sad thing is 99 percent of people are pretty central just not in the 1 percents eyes. Not really no. I could give you 5 examples of Islamic attacks and right wing terror attacks off the top of my head. When it comes to left wing all I can think of is people being a nuisance and causing disturbances or protesting for causes they believe in. If you've got a list of left wing terrorist attacks in recent memory though then please do share. I just can't think of any myself. The guardian I don't think promotes anger either. You're going down the long treaded "just as bad as each other path" here but with little or no evidence to back up that point. Let's not try and defend the indefensible. |
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 31, 2022 11:59:38 GMT
When will the white community come out and denounce this act of terrorism? Are they doing enough to help eradicate what's going on right in front of their eyes? We never seem to hear enough from the moderate whites. I'm sure the majority of whites aren't extremist terrorists but if only they'd denounce these people more it would send a good message. |
|
|
|
Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Oct 31, 2022 12:05:44 GMT
Isn’t the biggest problem the stoking up of anger, whether it’s the right wing Mail, left wing Guardian or the extreme views of some on social media (from both sides). If you have someone who’s easily coerced and has issues it doesn’t take long for someone to act beyond typing on the internet and act out what they believe to be justice. Ultimately no one wins when these incidents happen other than those (on both sides) looking to use deaths / murder to push their political views even more. The sad thing is 99 percent of people are pretty central just not in the 1 percents eyes. Not really no. I could give you 5 examples of Islamic attacks and right wing terror attacks off the top of my head. When it comes to left wing all I can think of is people being a nuisance and causing disturbances or protesting for causes they believe in. If you've got a list of left wing terrorist attacks in recent memory though then please do share. I just can't think of any myself. The guardian I don't think promotes anger either. You're going down the long treaded "just as bad as each other path" here but with little or no evidence to back up that point. Let's not try and defend the indefensible. I rest my case. |
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on Oct 31, 2022 12:08:29 GMT
You are quite correct to highlight this very big problem and it's one of the Unintended Consequences of Brexit and I previously wrote about it on that thread When UK fully left EU after Transition period it could no longer have access to Schengen Information System (SIS 11) and Europol Databases It is relatively easy for Albanian Gang Masters to obtain 180 day Visas to UK, they have plenty of resources. What database do you think UK uses to assess if the Applicant has a Criminal Record? Before Brexit the number of Albanian Asylum Seekers was in the hundreds Now with Albanian Gang Masters on both sides of the Channel coordinating it is an avalanche 12,000 so far this year. Those crossing on small boasts are the foot soldiers and are being exploited into Slavery, Prostitution, Drug Trafficking etc The attached explains more www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2022/10/26/uk-sees-almost-40000-migrants-cross-channel-by-small-boat-this-year/%3foutputType=amp |
|
|
|
Post by Gawa on Oct 31, 2022 12:24:43 GMT
Not really no. I could give you 5 examples of Islamic attacks and right wing terror attacks off the top of my head. When it comes to left wing all I can think of is people being a nuisance and causing disturbances or protesting for causes they believe in. If you've got a list of left wing terrorist attacks in recent memory though then please do share. I just can't think of any myself. The guardian I don't think promotes anger either. You're going down the long treaded "just as bad as each other path" here but with little or no evidence to back up that point. Let's not try and defend the indefensible. I rest my case. So you can't think of any. What I thought. |
|
|
|
Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Oct 31, 2022 12:34:07 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by knype on Oct 31, 2022 12:42:06 GMT
When will the white community come out and denounce this act of terrorism? Are they doing enough to help eradicate what's going on right in front of their eyes? We never seem to hear enough from the moderate whites. I'm sure the majority of whites aren't extremist terrorists but if only they'd denounce these people more it would send a good message. Are you a moderate white? |
|
|
|
Post by thewonderstuff on Oct 31, 2022 12:55:59 GMT
Are you saying that the people who hijacked this prefectly legitimate protest against a heinous pices of legislation are part of the 'liberal left'?!  |
|
|
|
Post by Gawa on Oct 31, 2022 12:56:12 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by cheadlepotter on Oct 31, 2022 13:19:07 GMT
I think we all need to remember that the real battle isn’t between left and right, it’s between the rich and the poor. All this left/right stuff is a convenient distraction from the fact that the rich keep getting richer whilst most of us (your average football fan) are getting poorer. And that distraction is all over the media, whether it’s to the left or right. Media owned by the rich.
|
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Oct 31, 2022 13:50:01 GMT
The last military security brief I attended said that the right wing terror threat was negligible. Ok so that was in 2018, so something may have changed in the four years hence. The terror threats that were highlighted were in the main extremist Islamic and dissident Irish republicans. It seems that extreme right wing terror incidents are growing in number on the continent too, where there is a tradition of extreme right politics, fascism etc in everyday politics in a way that is incomprehensible in this country. A military unit in Germany was disbanded due to right wing ideology permeating it, and the Reichstag was stormed by Far right extremists in 2021- is the UK becoming like this? The murder of two British soldiers in Antrim in 2009 by an Irish terrorist were not regarded as acts of terror (for example), so perhaps we need the dust to settle a bit before we draw premature conclusions? What about the countless amount of innocent people called by the British state in Ireland over multiple decades? They don't get considered acts of terrorism either. Killing innocent people while wearing military uniform doesn't make it OK. Once you decide to put in the uniform and carry out acts on innocent people on behalf of the state, you're just a facilitator and enabler. Doing your duty protecting British citizens on British soil And getting murdered and maimed by a bunch of cowardly scumbag bastards financially supported by even bigger cowards Is also not ok |
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on Oct 31, 2022 15:04:31 GMT
What about the countless amount of innocent people called by the British state in Ireland over multiple decades? They don't get considered acts of terrorism either. Killing innocent people while wearing military uniform doesn't make it OK. Once you decide to put in the uniform and carry out acts on innocent people on behalf of the state, you're just a facilitator and enabler. Doing your duty protecting British citizens on British soil And getting murdered and maimed by a bunch of cowardly scumbag bastards financially supported by even bigger cowards Is also not ok Perhaps if the UK Government had acknowledged the legitimate grievances of the Nationalist population being treated in an Apartheid Manner as second class citizens which prompted peaceful protest marches things might have worked out differently These Peaceful Protest Marches were met with violence and thuggery by the Northern Ireland Police Force the RUC and even more notoriously the B Specials Operation Banner which brought the British Army to the streets of Northern-ireland in a "Peacekeeping Role" were initially welcomed by the Nationalist Population who were literally being burnt out of their homes but the actions of the British Army soon altered that opinion Into that vacuum stepped the IRA who had been largely dormant since the mid 1950s And the rest is History As an addendum if the British Army behaved impeccable why are the British Government trying to shut down all legacy investigations many at a very advanced stage and why are they trying to give a Blanket Amnesty to British Soldiers Many hundreds of those who were killed in whatever manner have not even been granted an inquest into how they may have died.to their relatives The Policy being pursued by British Government is condemned on all sides Nationalist and Unionist |
|
|
|
Post by Gawa on Oct 31, 2022 15:40:19 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Oct 31, 2022 15:47:06 GMT
Doing your duty protecting British citizens on British soil And getting murdered and maimed by a bunch of cowardly scumbag bastards financially supported by even bigger cowards Is also not ok Perhaps if the UK Government had acknowledged the legitimate grievances of the Nationalist population being treated in an Apartheid Manner as second class citizens which prompted peaceful protest marches things might have worked out differently These Peaceful Protest Marches were met with violence and thuggery by the Northern Ireland Police Force the RUC and even more notoriously the B Specials Operation Banner which brought the British Army to the streets of Northern-ireland in a "Peacekeeping Role" were initially welcomed by the Nationalist Population who were literally being burnt out of their homes but the actions of the British Army soon altered that opinion Into that vacuum stepped the IRA who had been largely dormant since the mid 1950s And the rest is History As an addendum if the British Army behaved impeccable why are the British Government trying to shut down all legacy investigations many at a very advanced stage and why are they trying to give a Blanket Amnesty to British Soldiers Many hundreds of those who were killed in whatever manner have not even been granted an inquest into how they may have died.to their relatives The Policy being pursued by British Government is condemned on all sides Nationalist and Unionist I haven’t stated the British army were totally blameless I sure there were events to which they were guilty of crimes But the bunch who called there selves soldiers who were at best faux polystyrene cowards who hid behind women and children who systematically maimed and killed completely innocent people who’s crime was to go to a shop or a pub Are equally if not more guilty As are anyone who offered them practical or financial support As for legacy hearings bring them on I’m all for it they can start with that murdering bastard Gerry adams |
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Oct 31, 2022 15:51:53 GMT
We can carry this on as long as you like what about children in Warrington Pub goers in Birmingham Democratically elected politicians in Brighton As for the falklands it’s something you’ve got to learn to live with the right of the British government to protect British citizens on British soil |
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Oct 31, 2022 16:20:53 GMT
I’ll leave you too it Bayern …..you’re in one of those not up for debate moods I’m always up for debate but there’s just not a comparison. As lordb says one kills, one throws paint. It’s not even close. And the fact this thread has been spun 180 into it’s the left and what about the Muslims is no shock and says an awful lot. No one had mentioned Muslims apart from yourself (and I'm only doing so as I'm paraphrasing you) |
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on Oct 31, 2022 16:21:28 GMT
Perhaps if the UK Government had acknowledged the legitimate grievances of the Nationalist population being treated in an Apartheid Manner as second class citizens which prompted peaceful protest marches things might have worked out differently These Peaceful Protest Marches were met with violence and thuggery by the Northern Ireland Police Force the RUC and even more notoriously the B Specials Operation Banner which brought the British Army to the streets of Northern-ireland in a "Peacekeeping Role" were initially welcomed by the Nationalist Population who were literally being burnt out of their homes but the actions of the British Army soon altered that opinion Into that vacuum stepped the IRA who had been largely dormant since the mid 1950s And the rest is History As an addendum if the British Army behaved impeccable why are the British Government trying to shut down all legacy investigations many at a very advanced stage and why are they trying to give a Blanket Amnesty to British Soldiers Many hundreds of those who were killed in whatever manner have not even been granted an inquest into how they may have died.to their relatives The Policy being pursued by British Government is condemned on all sides Nationalist and Unionist I haven’t stated the British army were totally blameless I sure there were events to which they were guilty of crimes Do you think these should be investigated then?But the bunch who called there selves soldiers who were at best faux polystyrene cowards who hid behind women and children who systematically maimed and killed completely innocent people who’s crime was to go to a shop or a pub Are equally if not more guilty As are anyone who offered them practical or financial support My overall point which you chose not to address was that if the British Government hadn't allowed a certain section of its British Citizens to be treated as second class citizens there would not have been a Vacuum to be filled by the IRA
Its a grim number but of 2 of the Insurgents the British Army lost more than double the lives of the IRA so there must have been some direct engagementsAs for legacy hearings bring them on I’m all for it they can start with that murdering bastard Gerry adams Do you think it was wrong of Charles 111 to shake hands with Gerry Adams then?
Wairfare is never clean and this one ended due to a Political and Military Stalemate
|
|
|
|
Post by Gawa on Oct 31, 2022 16:25:57 GMT
We can carry this on as long as you like what about children in Warrington Pub goers in Birmingham Democratically elected politicians in Brighton As for the falklands it’s something you’ve got to learn to live with the right of the British government to protect British citizens on British soil I don't support the IRA or agree with their actions, especially the amount of innocent people they murdered in both Ireland and the mainland. But at the same time, I feel the same with alot of the actions of the British army too. But obviously not all, there are many great soldiers too. And alot of the time they're just following orders. Anyway this is a bit off topic now. |
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Oct 31, 2022 16:31:24 GMT
I haven’t stated the British army were totally blameless I sure there were events to which they were guilty of crimes Do you think these should be investigated then?But the bunch who called there selves soldiers who were at best faux polystyrene cowards who hid behind women and children who systematically maimed and killed completely innocent people who’s crime was to go to a shop or a pub Are equally if not more guilty As are anyone who offered them practical or financial support My overall point which you chose not to address was that if the British Government hadn't allowed a certain section of its British Citizens to be treated as second class citizens there would not have been a Vacuum to be filled by the IRA
Its a grim number but of 2 of the Insurgents the British Army lost more than double the lives of the IRA so there must have been some direct engagementsAs for legacy hearings bring them on I’m all for it they can start with that murdering bastard Gerry adams Do you think it was wrong of Charles 111 to shake hands with Gerry Adams then?
Wairfare is never clean and this one ended due to a Political and Military Stalemate
Do you think they should be investigated YES direct engagement WAS THAT BY CAR BOMB Was it wrong for Charles the third to shake hands YES By all means investigate British soldiers But at the same time there should be no amnesty for anyone of any political persuasion |
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Oct 31, 2022 16:33:40 GMT
We can carry this on as long as you like what about children in Warrington Pub goers in Birmingham Democratically elected politicians in Brighton As for the falklands it’s something you’ve got to learn to live with the right of the British government to protect British citizens on British soil I don't support the IRA or agree with their actions, especially the amount of innocent people they murdered in both Ireland and the mainland. But at the same time, I feel the same with alot of the actions of the British army too. But obviously not all, there are many great soldiers too. And alot of the time they're just following orders. Anyway this is a bit off topic now. Yes we’ve gone off topic a touch so I’ll leave it at that |
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on Oct 31, 2022 16:40:37 GMT
Do you think they should be investigated YES direct engagement WAS THAT BY CAR BOMB Was it wrong for Charles the third to shake hands YES By all means investigate British soldiers But at the same time there should be no amnesty for anyone of any political persuasion I'd say your positions are not unreasonable (except not offering any opinion as the initial cause) and not a million miles from my own They are however vastly different to the actions being taken by British Government |
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Oct 31, 2022 17:17:48 GMT
Do you think they should be investigated YES direct engagement WAS THAT BY CAR BOMB Was it wrong for Charles the third to shake hands YES By all means investigate British soldiers But at the same time there should be no amnesty for anyone of any political persuasion I'd say your positions are not unreasonable (except not offering any opinion as the initial cause) and not a million miles from my own They are however vastly different to the actions being taken by British Government I think the good Friday agreement whilst bringing peace It has failed to deliver justice and answers to many people from both sides |
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Oct 31, 2022 17:29:08 GMT
After 60+ yrs of mass UNCONTROLLED immigration into this small island unfortunately this is/was all too predictable and will continue. You don't need to be Einstein to figure that out. We haven't had uncontrolled immigration, absoulute myth |
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Oct 31, 2022 17:46:36 GMT
Who’s done that?….certainly not myself I’ll repeat again the far right are vermin just as in a different type of way are the liberal left ( again I repeat NOT the left ) Thevoid of course. Has already managed to crowbar in both blaming the left for intolerance, and muslim terrorist atrocities (the market truck atrocity) into this thread! In your seemingly endless quest for cheap point scoring over other posters who see things differently than your esteemed self, you are missing the point as usual 🙂 Bayern made a rather fanciful claim- without evidence- that far right terrorists are passed off as mentally ill when in fact they are dealt with swiftly and harshly. National Action were quite rightly classed as a terrorist group and membership would mean a lengthy custodial sentence. As for Thomas Mair (killer of Jo Cox): 'At a September 2016 hearing, Mair's counsel said they would not advance a diminished responsibility argument...Mair was sentenced to life imprisonment'. (Admittedly it is easier to clamp down on a small, localised bunch of thugs such as NA than it is an organisation such as ISIS who have their tentacles all over the world) That's two of the more recent events in the UK involving far right terrorism before this latest incident. For balance, I reminded Bayern of some instances in the last few years whereby trucks were driven into Xmas shopping crowds (and numerous other incidents, mainly on the continent- especially France) and how these awful acts seemed to get passed off as a symptom of 'mental illness', as Bayern seemed to forget these. It's actually yourself and Bayern who did the mental gymnastics and mentioned Muslims first in this thread- I'm not even sure if all of these attacks were carried out by Muslims?* As for 'blaming the left for intolerance', some of the more extreme left wing posters on here are just as bad as those on the extreme right (and that doesn't just apply here either- social media is awash with it). For every 'partick' there's a 'yeswilko', for every me there's a MoMo (although as previously stated you do tend to turn a blind eye to those that are politically aligned with yourself). I do think that some of you people on the left are so convinced in your virtuousness that any comments to the contrary come as a bit of a shock- as evidenced by your last comment! *I would suggest that fanatical devotion to ANY religion should be classed as mental illness, but that's a discussion for another thread I think... |
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Oct 31, 2022 18:22:13 GMT
Isn’t the biggest problem the stoking up of anger, whether it’s the right wing Mail, left wing Guardian or the extreme views of some on social media (from both sides). If you have someone who’s easily coerced and has issues it doesn’t take long for someone to act beyond typing on the internet and act out what they believe to be justice. Ultimately no one wins when these incidents happen other than those (on both sides) looking to use deaths / murder to push their political views even more. The sad thing is 99 percent of people are pretty central just not in the 1 percents eyes. Not really no. I could give you 5 examples of Islamic attacks and right wing terror attacks off the top of my head. When it comes to left wing all I can think of is people being a nuisance and causing disturbances or protesting for causes they believe in. If you've got a list of left wing terrorist attacks in recent memory though then please do share. I just can't think of any myself. The guardian I don't think promotes anger either. You're going down the long treaded "just as bad as each other path" here but with little or no evidence to back up that point. Let's not try and defend the indefensible. Assuming we aren't just sticking to the UK, David Dorn (a black man no less) is the forgotten name when we discuss George Floyd and the shenanigans that went on afterwards en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_David_Dorn?wprov=sfla1Dorn was responding to an alarm at his friend's shop when he was fatally shot by a protestor. So much for 'Black Lives Matter' hey? The sad irony here is a career criminal and misogynist like Floyd becomes a martyr with murals and statues dedicated to him and a law abiding chap like Dorn is relegated to the status of afterthought. One wonders if more had been made of his death had it been the fault of the police? Closer to home, we had the Officer Ratana murder in Croydon (an immigrant of Maori descent no less) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Matt_Ratana?wprov=sfla1'The suspect (Louis de Zoysa) had previously been referred to the Prevent programme, an anti-extremism programme developed by the government in an attempt to prevent individuals from joining extremist groups and carrying out terrorist activities.' |
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Oct 31, 2022 18:29:40 GMT
What relevance does this have? |
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Oct 31, 2022 18:34:18 GMT
And also for people who drive trucks into Christmas shoppers What relevance does that have? Because Bayern's comment was one sided and inaccurate. |
|
|
|
Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 31, 2022 18:37:55 GMT
What relevance does that have? Because Bayern's comment was one sided and inaccurate. Par for the course with Bayern though that is. |
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Oct 31, 2022 18:38:06 GMT
I'm not very good at maths or wings but does that mean that 59% of all arrests for terrorism last year were left wing terrorists ?
what is left wing terrorism as opposed to right wing ?
is/was the knife killing of the conservative mp in his constituency office classed as left wing terrorism ?
sorry just seen gawa definitions
I think they try to keep Islamic terrorists in their own separate group? But not sure. I wouldn't say they're left wing myself personally with a lot of their views being very far right. Woman's rights, gay rights, relegious rights etc.. And of course the authorative regimes they run too. Few on here have Alot more in common with Isis that they'd like to think. Aren't most religious fanatics conservative by nature? Whether that be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or Jewish? |
|
|
|
Post by Gawa on Oct 31, 2022 18:43:29 GMT
Not really no. I could give you 5 examples of Islamic attacks and right wing terror attacks off the top of my head. When it comes to left wing all I can think of is people being a nuisance and causing disturbances or protesting for causes they believe in. If you've got a list of left wing terrorist attacks in recent memory though then please do share. I just can't think of any myself. The guardian I don't think promotes anger either. You're going down the long treaded "just as bad as each other path" here but with little or no evidence to back up that point. Let's not try and defend the indefensible. Assuming we aren't just sticking to the UK, David Dorn (a black man no less) is the forgotten name when we discuss George Floyd and the shenanigans that went on afterwards en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_David_Dorn?wprov=sfla1Dorn was responding to an alarm at his friend's shop when he was fatally shot by a protestor. So much for 'Black Lives Matter' hey? The sad irony here is a career criminal and misogynist like Floyd becomes a martyr with murals and statues dedicated to him and a law abiding chap like Dorn is relegated to the status of afterthought. One wonders if more had been made of his death had it been the fault of the police? Disgraceful act. Glad that they managed to identify those who committed the crime, should never have happened in the first place though. Especially over something as trivial as a TV. The difference between you and I, is that in both instances I see an individual who was called unlawfully and deserves justice. How many black people have been murdered by authorities and no justice has been served? It doesn't matter if they're a "career criminal", before all else they're a human being. Referencing someone's past crimes doesn't suddenly make their death OK, it just weakens the argument as it comes across that because of their past that means the death is justified. Just because you agree with the general message behind a movement, doesn't mean you're supporting all the extremist actions which may follow it. And similarly it doesn't mean you agree with all parts of it either. I don't agree with the IRA or the acts of terrorism they committed either. Lots of innocent people died needless deaths on all sides. I'll never support Sinn Fein either due to their links with the IRA. With that said though, I understand that catholics were treated as second class citizens for a long time and maybe if the troubles didn't break out, they'd still be second class citizens today. So I support the movement of the Northern Irish catholics to get equality and treated fairly. But I don't support IRA which attached themselves to it. From what I see though. Alot of those who are against the organisation "BLM" also appear to be against the general movement and message too. They don't recognise the amount of needless black deaths at the hand of the authorities and instead basically try to suggest "they must have deserved it". You can support "Black Lives Matter" and be opposed to all or some of the BLM actions at the same time. Do I think people should pull down historical statues in a protest? No. Even if they were slave traders, it is not the right of those protesting to take those actions. Leave that debate to the council and MP's. Do I agree with looting stores and murdering innocent people protecting their shops? No, not at all. Do I support people taking a knee to raise awareness of the problems faced by black people. Yes. That is an innocent act of solidarity and the right way to do it. |
|
