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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Sept 25, 2023 0:16:14 GMT
Very rational and lovely use of the English language. I’d like to see you put your neck on the line and put yourself in the way of a terrorist or some knife wielding maniac or someone with a gun pointed at you. You just don’t get it do you? Would you be saying the same to those striking for the NHS or the Rails. The police don’t have a union so they can’t strike but them handing in their cards is the equivalent of them going on strike because they’re not happy with the support they’ve received. I’m pretty sure that being in the same force or even a colleague of the officer that’s being charged with murder they know more about the case than you and I and that they’ve simply come to the conclusion that rather than do a voluntary role (they don’t have to carry a firearm) they’d rather not risk there own or there families future if it could result in them being charged with murder. They’re simply exercising their right to not do a specialist role that’s far more dangerous and risky for a more safe and less griefy position within the force. I haven’t signed up to that. They have. They are judged by the law and the law has deemed this to be murder. They will then get a fair trial and will be held to the law. Every one of them that has handed their card is saying they don’t agree with the rule of law. They need to be fucked off sharpish as they are absolute dangers. In what way are they dangers? You know them all personally and there circumstances, family etc? |
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Post by wannabee on Sept 25, 2023 1:35:47 GMT
I haven’t signed up to that. They have. They are judged by the law and the law has deemed this to be murder. They will then get a fair trial and will be held to the law. Every one of them that has handed their card is saying they don’t agree with the rule of law. They need to be fucked off sharpish as they are absolute dangers. In what way are they dangers? You know them all personally and there circumstances, family etc? They are dangerous if they do not respect the rule of law they pledged to uphold. By their actions of handing in their card they confirm they are unable to carry out their duties in circumstances which may require them to legally discharging a firearm It would be wrong to speculate on why individual Police Officers reached that conclusion You, I or even Bayern couldn't possibly know the reasons why they reached that conclusion. |
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Post by franklin on Sept 25, 2023 5:35:25 GMT
In what way are they dangers? You know them all personally and there circumstances, family etc? They are dangerous if they do not respect the rule of law they pledged to uphold. By their actions of handing in their card they confirm they are unable to carry out their duties in circumstances which may require them to legally discharging a firearm It would be wrong to speculate on why individual Police Officers reached that conclusion You, I or even Bayern couldn't possibly know the reasons why they reached that conclusion. It's not rocket science they are handing in their firearms tickets because they make split second decisions where they may shoot a person dead and the risk of a murder charge is too much for them to bear. Humans make mistakes at work but most mistakes don't carry the threat of a life sentence. No need for speculation it's obvious and to deny that is just being bloody minded and to suggest they are dangerous for protecting their families and themselves by reducing the risk is just wrong. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 25, 2023 6:33:00 GMT
I haven’t signed up to that. They have. They are judged by the law and the law has deemed this to be murder. They will then get a fair trial and will be held to the law. Every one of them that has handed their card is saying they don’t agree with the rule of law. They need to be fucked off sharpish as they are absolute dangers. In what way are they dangers? You know them all personally and there circumstances, family etc? They think they’re above the law. That’s dangerous. The CPS have deemed the case to reach certain thresholds, you respect that and let the due process happen. Like any other law abiding citizen. |
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Post by knype on Sept 25, 2023 6:45:35 GMT
In what way are they dangers? You know them all personally and there circumstances, family etc? They think they’re above the law. That’s dangerous. The CPS have deemed the case to reach certain thresholds, you respect that and let the due process happen. Like any other law abiding citizen. Crock of shit! |
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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Sept 25, 2023 7:04:32 GMT
In what way are they dangers? You know them all personally and there circumstances, family etc? They think they’re above the law. That’s dangerous. The CPS have deemed the case to reach certain thresholds, you respect that and let the due process happen. Like any other law abiding citizen. If you read Franklins post he gets it spot on. They’re simply choosing not to do a (voluntary) role within the police that could result in them ending up in prison if they make a genuine mistake. That’s there right. I’m not sure why that makes them in your words quote “cunts.” Braverman’s support is too little too late. She’s only getting involved now because she’s terrified there’s going to be no one to deal with a serious terrorist incident and she’s going to be left with the army who may be a little more robust and won’t be as well trained. In relation to the stats there have been over 18000 firearms incidents in the U.K. (incidents involving people with firearms or other weapons). How many of those incidents do you think officers have discharged a firearm? 10 is the answer or 1 in 1800. Hardly the behaviour of a group of men or women who are gung ho or dangerous is it and that figures highly unlikely to change any time soon. Perhaps the reason it’s so low is because they receive extensive training where I’m sure it’s made quite clear re the consequence of firing. Even those that shot the terrorists in London Bridge were immediately suspended and they were heroes. No wonder it’s a job no one wants to do. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 25, 2023 7:41:57 GMT
They think they’re above the law. That’s dangerous. The CPS have deemed the case to reach certain thresholds, you respect that and let the due process happen. Like any other law abiding citizen. If you read Franklins post he gets it spot on. They’re simply choosing not to do a (voluntary) role within the police that could result in them ending up in prison if they make a genuine mistake. That’s there right. I’m not sure why that makes them in your words quote “cunts.” Braverman’s support is too little too late. She’s only getting involved now because she’s terrified there’s going to be no one to deal with a serious terrorist incident and she’s going to be left with the army who may be a little more robust and won’t be as well trained. In relation to the stats there have been over 18000 firearms incidents in the U.K. (incidents involving people with firearms or other weapons). How many of those incidents do you think officers have discharged a firearm? 10 is the answer or 1 in 1800. Hardly the behaviour of a group of men or women who are gung ho or dangerous is it and that figures highly unlikely to change any time soon. Perhaps the reason it’s so low is because they receive extensive training where I’m sure it’s made quite clear re the consequence of firing. Even those that shot the terrorists in London Bridge were immediately suspended and they were heroes. No wonder it’s a job no one wants to do. They’re deciding the law. Which is dangerous. As for Braverman commenting on an active murder case in public, she should be suspended immediately. But of course this government have no standards. |
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Post by knype on Sept 25, 2023 7:57:12 GMT
They think they’re above the law. That’s dangerous. The CPS have deemed the case to reach certain thresholds, you respect that and let the due process happen. Like any other law abiding citizen. If you read Franklins post he gets it spot on. They’re simply choosing not to do a (voluntary) role within the police that could result in them ending up in prison if they make a genuine mistake. That’s there right. I’m not sure why that makes them in your words quote “cunts.” Braverman’s support is too little too late. She’s only getting involved now because she’s terrified there’s going to be no one to deal with a serious terrorist incident and she’s going to be left with the army who may be a little more robust and won’t be as well trained. In relation to the stats there have been over 18000 firearms incidents in the U.K. (incidents involving people with firearms or other weapons). How many of those incidents do you think officers have discharged a firearm? 10 is the answer or 1 in 1800. Hardly the behaviour of a group of men or women who are gung ho or dangerous is it and that figures highly unlikely to change any time soon. Perhaps the reason it’s so low is because they receive extensive training where I’m sure it’s made quite clear re the consequence of firing. Even those that shot the terrorists in London Bridge were immediately suspended and they were heroes. No wonder it’s a job no one wants to do. Spot on! |
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Post by roylandstoke on Sept 25, 2023 7:57:27 GMT
For some of the Firearms officers the only way from a professional perspective they think they could avoid criticism would be to never shoot and to potentially let innocent people die due to taking no action which is probably why they’re handing there cards in. In relation to Cousins he’s a scumbag but you have to separate what he did off duty which was truly evil from someone trying to do their job on duty or do you think he and the other idiot represent the vast majority of honest decent officers. Those 2 deserve everything they get for what they did. By chance did you post anything positive about the officers actions when they put there necks on the line when they were shooting the terrorists at London Bridge or Borough Market or were they just doing their job? Maybe part of the problem is they feel undervalued and that’s why they think why bother and now want the easier life. It’s clear this guy hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about. I wouldn’t waste your time Do you know what I’m talking about? My comment suggested there needed to be a review of the vetting procedure for police officers, including firearms officers. Are you comfortable with a procedure that empowered ‘the rapist’ and ‘bastard Dave’? |
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Post by franklin on Sept 25, 2023 9:12:30 GMT
All armed response officers and counter terrorism officers have given in their tickets so as of now there are no armed officers in London.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Sept 25, 2023 9:22:31 GMT
All armed response officers and counter terrorism officers have given in their tickets so as of now there are no armed officers in London. Do you have a link. The last report on msm was "about 100 out of over 2500". If all have turned in their licence then that’s very worrying. |
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Post by franklin on Sept 25, 2023 9:23:37 GMT
All armed response officers and counter terrorism officers have given in their tickets so as of now there are no armed officers in London. Do you have a link. The last report on msm was "about 100 out of over 2500". If all have turned in their licence then that’s very worrying. Breaking news on GB News albeit I've not seen it elsewhere. www.gbnews.com/news/met-police-firearms-officers-step-back-from-armed-duties-in-worsening-crisisReporting all but 5 who are on holiday have handed in their tickets this morning. Sky News reporting it now. |
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Post by wannabee on Sept 25, 2023 10:05:30 GMT
They are dangerous if they do not respect the rule of law they pledged to uphold. By their actions of handing in their card they confirm they are unable to carry out their duties in circumstances which may require them to legally discharging a firearm It would be wrong to speculate on why individual Police Officers reached that conclusion You, I or even Bayern couldn't possibly know the reasons why they reached that conclusion. It's not rocket science they are handing in their firearms tickets because they make split second decisions where they may shoot a person dead and the risk of a murder charge is too much for them to bear. Humans make mistakes at work but most mistakes don't carry the threat of a life sentence. No need for speculation it's obvious and to deny that is just being bloody minded and to suggest they are dangerous for protecting their families and themselves by reducing the risk is just wrong. I am not entirely unsympathetic to your/Police Officers position but as it has been pointed out the incidence of a Police Officer fatally shooting someone is rare and facing a criminal charge non existent, up to now Obviously in the past when such incidents have occurred an Independent Investigation was conducted and no charges were brought Why is this case different? I don't know and respectfully neither do you. By questioning the integrity of the IOPC Investigation and/or CPS Charging decision it brings the whole legal process into disrepute If in the course of their duties a Surgeon, a Train/Taxi Driver or any other person does something reckless that results in Wrongful Death they can and are prosecuted. Should a Police Officer not be subject to the same Laws? If it is proved in Court that it was as you say a split second decision then no "intent" could be proved they would not be convicted of Murder which has a very high bar. As for the egregious intervention of Braverman this is nothing short of Abuse of Process. If her intervention was related to a Trial of a person accused of Murdering a Police Officer it would present them with very good grounds that they are unable to get a Fair Trial It was for good reasons the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 redefined the Lord Chancellors role to further seperate the Executive (Cabinet) from the Judiciary |
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Post by Gawa on Sept 25, 2023 10:06:53 GMT
I personally support the officers myself and feel this is them basically standing up and exercising the closest thing they can to striking.
Former chief constable for Manchester has been doing the interview rounds and had this to say:
"It is part of a bigger picture where there is a huge level of discontent among ordinary police officers where there is a huge gulf between policing and the Home Office," Sir Peter said.
"Officers understand the impact of some of the serious cases, particularly involving the Met Police, but feel a lot of the criticism is unbalanced, that they are underappreciated and that the media and politicians don't understand the reality of day-to-day policing."
I think the olde phrase "the straw which broke the camels back" fits in here.
This action isn't simply just about the Chris Kaba incident. It runs much deeper and is just another indictment on the failures of this government.
He talks about the gulf between policing and the Home Office. He talks about politicians not helping and not understanding policing.
Idiots like this:
It's not the first public service to take unprecedented action and it won't be the last.
We need a general election yesterday, not next year. The countries went to the dogs.
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Post by wannabee on Sept 25, 2023 10:27:32 GMT
I personally support the officers myself and feel this is them basically standing up and exercising the closest thing they can to striking. Former chief constable for Manchester has been doing the interview rounds and had this to say: "It is part of a bigger picture where there is a huge level of discontent among ordinary police officers where there is a huge gulf between policing and the Home Office," Sir Peter said. "Officers understand the impact of some of the serious cases, particularly involving the Met Police, but feel a lot of the criticism is unbalanced, that they are underappreciated and that the media and politicians don't understand the reality of day-to-day policing." I think the olde phrase "the straw which broke the camels back" fits in here. This action isn't simply just about the Chris Kaba incident. It runs much deeper and is just another indictment on the failures of this government. He talks about the gulf between policing and the Home Office. He talks about politicians not helping and not understanding policing. Idiots like this: It's not the first public service to take unprecedented action and it won't be the last. We need a general election yesterday, not next year. The countries went to the dogs. I'll repeat my answer/question where you posted this previously on Met Police thread Should they extend the Northern Ireland Legacy Bill to include Met Police Officers? |
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Post by Gawa on Sept 25, 2023 10:30:26 GMT
I personally support the officers myself and feel this is them basically standing up and exercising the closest thing they can to striking. Former chief constable for Manchester has been doing the interview rounds and had this to say: "It is part of a bigger picture where there is a huge level of discontent among ordinary police officers where there is a huge gulf between policing and the Home Office," Sir Peter said. "Officers understand the impact of some of the serious cases, particularly involving the Met Police, but feel a lot of the criticism is unbalanced, that they are underappreciated and that the media and politicians don't understand the reality of day-to-day policing." I think the olde phrase "the straw which broke the camels back" fits in here. This action isn't simply just about the Chris Kaba incident. It runs much deeper and is just another indictment on the failures of this government. He talks about the gulf between policing and the Home Office. He talks about politicians not helping and not understanding policing. Idiots like this: It's not the first public service to take unprecedented action and it won't be the last. We need a general election yesterday, not next year. The countries went to the dogs. I'll repeat my answer/question where you posted this previously on Met Police thread Should they extend the Northern Ireland Legacy Bill to include Met Police Officers? Can you tell me exactly what's been requested wannabe as you're obviously closer to the source than me. I've not read anything which suggests they want this legacy bill which applies to incidents during the troubles to be applied to England I'm not even sure how this would help either? What's closing old historical legacy investigations going to achieve in the Chris Kaba situation, a current ongoing recent investigation? |
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Post by wannabee on Sept 25, 2023 10:41:36 GMT
I'll repeat my answer/question where you posted this previously on Met Police thread Should they extend the Northern Ireland Legacy Bill to include Met Police Officers? Can you tell me exactly what's been requested wannabe as you're obviously closer to the source than me. I've not read anything which suggests they want this legacy bill which applies to incidents during the troubles to be applied to England I'm not even sure how this would help either? What's closing old historical legacy investigations going to achieve in the Chris Kaba situation, a current ongoing recent investigation? We seem to be following each other around on different threads asking and answering the same questions I'll repeat my answer here My contention is is that if those who are entrusted to maintain the Law are not subject to the same scrutiny the result is anarchy or a Totalitarian State By the way I think the NILB is an appalling piece of legislation but it has done a remarkable thing of uniting everyone in Ireland North/South against it, quite an achievement |
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Post by superjw on Sept 25, 2023 11:02:59 GMT
Very rational and lovely use of the English language. I’d like to see you put your neck on the line and put yourself in the way of a terrorist or some knife wielding maniac or someone with a gun pointed at you. You just don’t get it do you? Would you be saying the same to those striking for the NHS or the Rails. The police don’t have a union so they can’t strike but them handing in their cards is the equivalent of them going on strike because they’re not happy with the support they’ve received. I’m pretty sure that being in the same force or even a colleague of the officer that’s being charged with murder they know more about the case than you and I and that they’ve simply come to the conclusion that rather than do a voluntary role (they don’t have to carry a firearm) they’d rather not risk there own or there families future if it could result in them being charged with murder. They’re simply exercising their right to not do a specialist role that’s far more dangerous and risky for a more safe and less griefy position within the force. I haven’t signed up to that. They have. They are judged by the law and the law has deemed this to be murder. They will then get a fair trial and will be held to the law. Every one of them that has handed their card is saying they don’t agree with the rule of law. They need to be fucked off sharpish as they are absolute dangers. Well you have your wish, looks like the Met now have zero armed officers available. Don’t really know where they go from here, but let’s hope it’s not into a serious incident that requires the use of such force |
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Post by Gawa on Sept 25, 2023 11:19:38 GMT
Can you tell me exactly what's been requested wannabe as you're obviously closer to the source than me. I've not read anything which suggests they want this legacy bill which applies to incidents during the troubles to be applied to England I'm not even sure how this would help either? What's closing old historical legacy investigations going to achieve in the Chris Kaba situation, a current ongoing recent investigation? We seem to be following each other around on different threads asking and answering the same questions I'll repeat my answer here My contention is is that if those who are entrusted to maintain the Law are not subject to the same scrutiny the result is anarchy or a Totalitarian State By the way I think the NILB is an appalling piece of legislation but it has done a remarkable thing of uniting everyone in Ireland North/South against it, quite an achievement I think where we're differing here is. You see these officers handing in their permits to be more directly related to this particular incident and you believe it's because they wish to avoid scrutiny or something along those lines. I know this won't be precisely what you mean but something like that. I see this action more as the straw which broke the camels back. Idiots like Lee Anderson and Suella Braverman have been criticising our police officers for months. You get cunts walking about outside stations and throwing their phones in officers faces to do "audits". Then you have the law changes where the tories want to prevent people from the right to protest which is more shit thrown at them. Then the large numbers of videos which get posted online, and often edited and taken out of context, to potray officers badly. Of course some of these are legit too and highlight corruption or mistakes made as well. Fact of the matter is though it's a very difficult job which in todays society doesn't pay enough for the responsibility which comes with it. When you add the sharp reduction in the number of officers too and that number of residents per police officer is at record levels, again adding further pressure and stress to the job - enough is enough. This isn't solely about "Chris Kaba" in my opinion. If officers were allowed to strike by law, I imagine they'd have been striking months ago due to a range of issues in the force. This is them finally standing up, putting their fingers up to the politicians and whoever else, and saying "fuck it - we're done". And I support that decision and their right to do that. And if people do think they're all corrupt then I'd presume they'd be happy too? As there's 100 less corrupt cops with guns to worry about. We can't have it both ways though. We can't allege and suggest every police officer is this or that and then when the police officers give up their permits complain again that they shouldn't be doing that. It's a very difficult and complex role made even more challenging with the rise of social media and a government not fit to serve. For every mistake which gets shared all over social and main stream meida, there are another 100 cases of good work which don't get recorded or shared widely. The media which we see in relation to the police is only the "bad news" which in my opinion influences peoples views as we only ever see one side of the story. Now I honestly do not know what they're requesting or asking for here with this action/protest. I haven't read into the details enough and I'm not sure if anyone knows the full picture either right now given it's still breaking. But I personally feel this isn't happening solely due to the Chris Kaba case. I think police are fed up and rightly so, and I support their action because it is a difficult thankless task which everyone wants to have their say on. But the thing nobody seems to talk about is the solution or how to fix the problem. The majority of the biggest critics wouldn't want to do the job themselves. And if we are unable to propose or find solutions to the problems and just want to complain about them then that's not really helping in my opinion. I do think police should still come under the same rule of law as ourselves and their actions scrutinised in a court where it's found they maybe haven't acted appropriately. At the same time though, I don't have a strong enough understanding of what the processes faced currently are and what, if any, changes these and other police want done to that. Pulling a trigger is very much a split second action where someone has to think on their feet and just like any job people will get things wrong at times. And I think when reviewing cases this needs to be taking into account too along with all other supporting evidence. It's like reviewing a football match though and saying during match of the day that a player should do XYZ instead. It's much easier to say that when watching the highlights after than it is to do it in the heat of the moment under pressure. And while yes I agree it's their job, we also need to be realistic with expectations too. If NI is anything to go by, the last thing people will want in England is the army on the streets filling in for the police. If history is anything to go by, they're even more trigger happy. |
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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Sept 25, 2023 12:05:42 GMT
I haven’t signed up to that. They have. They are judged by the law and the law has deemed this to be murder. They will then get a fair trial and will be held to the law. Every one of them that has handed their card is saying they don’t agree with the rule of law. They need to be fucked off sharpish as they are absolute dangers. Well you have your wish, looks like the Met now have zero armed officers available. Don’t really know where they go from here, but let’s hope it’s not into a serious incident that requires the use of such force God help us if there’s a terrorist attack in London. |
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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Sept 25, 2023 12:18:11 GMT
We seem to be following each other around on different threads asking and answering the same questions I'll repeat my answer here My contention is is that if those who are entrusted to maintain the Law are not subject to the same scrutiny the result is anarchy or a Totalitarian State By the way I think the NILB is an appalling piece of legislation but it has done a remarkable thing of uniting everyone in Ireland North/South against it, quite an achievement I think where we're differing here is. You see these officers handing in their permits to be more directly related to this particular incident and you believe it's because they wish to avoid scrutiny or something along those lines. I know this won't be precisely what you mean but something like that. I see this action more as the straw which broke the camels back. Idiots like Lee Anderson and Suella Braverman have been criticising our police officers for months. You get cunts walking about outside stations and throwing their phones in officers faces to do "audits". Then you have the law changes where the tories want to prevent people from the right to protest which is more shit thrown at them. Then the large numbers of videos which get posted online, and often edited and taken out of context, to potray officers badly. Of course some of these are legit too and highlight corruption or mistakes made as well. Fact of the matter is though it's a very difficult job which in todays society doesn't pay enough for the responsibility which comes with it. When you add the sharp reduction in the number of officers too and that number of residents per police officer is at record levels, again adding further pressure and stress to the job - enough is enough. This isn't solely about "Chris Kaba" in my opinion. If officers were allowed to strike by law, I imagine they'd have been striking months ago due to a range of issues in the force. This is them finally standing up, putting their fingers up to the politicians and whoever else, and saying "fuck it - we're done". And I support that decision and their right to do that. And if people do think they're all corrupt then I'd presume they'd be happy too? As there's 100 less corrupt cops with guns to worry about. We can't have it both ways though. We can't allege and suggest every police officer is this or that and then when the police officers give up their permits complain again that they shouldn't be doing that. It's a very difficult and complex role made even more challenging with the rise of social media and a government not fit to serve. For every mistake which gets shared all over social and main stream meida, there are another 100 cases of good work which don't get recorded or shared widely. The media which we see in relation to the police is only the "bad news" which in my opinion influences peoples views as we only ever see one side of the story. Now I honestly do not know what they're requesting or asking for here with this action/protest. I haven't read into the details enough and I'm not sure if anyone knows the full picture either right now given it's still breaking. But I personally feel this isn't happening solely due to the Chris Kaba case. I think police are fed up and rightly so, and I support their action because it is a difficult thankless task which everyone wants to have their say on. But the thing nobody seems to talk about is the solution or how to fix the problem. The majority of the biggest critics wouldn't want to do the job themselves. And if we are unable to propose or find solutions to the problems and just want to complain about them then that's not really helping in my opinion. I do think police should still come under the same rule of law as ourselves and their actions scrutinised in a court where it's found they maybe haven't acted appropriately. At the same time though, I don't have a strong enough understanding of what the processes faced currently are and what, if any, changes these and other police want done to that. Pulling a trigger is very much a split second action where someone has to think on their feet and just like any job people will get things wrong at times. And I think when reviewing cases this needs to be taking into account too along with all other supporting evidence. It's like reviewing a football match though and saying during match of the day that a player should do XYZ instead. It's much easier to say that when watching the highlights after than it is to do it in the heat of the moment under pressure. And while yes I agree it's their job, we also need to be realistic with expectations too. If NI is anything to go by, the last thing people will want in England is the army on the streets filling in for the police. If history is anything to go by, they're even more trigger happy. What an absolutely brilliant and fair post. 🙌 What this situation highlights is the power of social media and the impact it can have on those at the top and those that should know better. As you say it’s not all about the Kaba case it’s more about the total lack of support from the media, Politicians and Senior management. I think it’s fair to say that those officers on the street are sick of being hung out to dry, badly reported, used as a government pawn and unsupported by those at the top. It’s just a case of this case being the straw that broke the camels back. Imagine doing a job where you put your neck on the line every shift just to be constantly told that you’re a wrong un because of the actions of some idiots that you have nothing in common with. This has been a long time coming. |
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Post by wannabee on Sept 25, 2023 13:08:05 GMT
We seem to be following each other around on different threads asking and answering the same questions I'll repeat my answer here My contention is is that if those who are entrusted to maintain the Law are not subject to the same scrutiny the result is anarchy or a Totalitarian State By the way I think the NILB is an appalling piece of legislation but it has done a remarkable thing of uniting everyone in Ireland North/South against it, quite an achievement I think where we're differing here is. You see these officers handing in their permits to be more directly related to this particular incident and you believe it's because they wish to avoid scrutiny or something along those lines. I know this won't be precisely what you mean but something like that. I see this action more as the straw which broke the camels back. Idiots like Lee Anderson and Suella Braverman have been criticising our police officers for months. You get cunts walking about outside stations and throwing their phones in officers faces to do "audits". Then you have the law changes where the tories want to prevent people from the right to protest which is more shit thrown at them. Then the large numbers of videos which get posted online, and often edited and taken out of context, to potray officers badly. Of course some of these are legit too and highlight corruption or mistakes made as well. Fact of the matter is though it's a very difficult job which in todays society doesn't pay enough for the responsibility which comes with it. When you add the sharp reduction in the number of officers too and that number of residents per police officer is at record levels, again adding further pressure and stress to the job - enough is enough. This isn't solely about "Chris Kaba" in my opinion. If officers were allowed to strike by law, I imagine they'd have been striking months ago due to a range of issues in the force. This is them finally standing up, putting their fingers up to the politicians and whoever else, and saying "fuck it - we're done". And I support that decision and their right to do that. And if people do think they're all corrupt then I'd presume they'd be happy too? As there's 100 less corrupt cops with guns to worry about. We can't have it both ways though. We can't allege and suggest every police officer is this or that and then when the police officers give up their permits complain again that they shouldn't be doing that. It's a very difficult and complex role made even more challenging with the rise of social media and a government not fit to serve. For every mistake which gets shared all over social and main stream meida, there are another 100 cases of good work which don't get recorded or shared widely. The media which we see in relation to the police is only the "bad news" which in my opinion influences peoples views as we only ever see one side of the story. Now I honestly do not know what they're requesting or asking for here with this action/protest. I haven't read into the details enough and I'm not sure if anyone knows the full picture either right now given it's still breaking. But I personally feel this isn't happening solely due to the Chris Kaba case. I think police are fed up and rightly so, and I support their action because it is a difficult thankless task which everyone wants to have their say on. But the thing nobody seems to talk about is the solution or how to fix the problem. The majority of the biggest critics wouldn't want to do the job themselves. And if we are unable to propose or find solutions to the problems and just want to complain about them then that's not really helping in my opinion. I do think police should still come under the same rule of law as ourselves and their actions scrutinised in a court where it's found they maybe haven't acted appropriately. At the same time though, I don't have a strong enough understanding of what the processes faced currently are and what, if any, changes these and other police want done to that. Pulling a trigger is very much a split second action where someone has to think on their feet and just like any job people will get things wrong at times. And I think when reviewing cases this needs to be taking into account too along with all other supporting evidence. It's like reviewing a football match though and saying during match of the day that a player should do XYZ instead. It's much easier to say that when watching the highlights after than it is to do it in the heat of the moment under pressure. And while yes I agree it's their job, we also need to be realistic with expectations too. If NI is anything to go by, the last thing people will want in England is the army on the streets filling in for the police. If history is anything to go by, they're even more trigger happy. I have never criticised AFOs for handing in their ticket to carry firearms. I believe its a fundamental right of anyone to withdraw their, in this case, voluntary labour. Ironic as some who are supporting their decision to withdraw were critical of others namely Doctors and Nurses doing the same I don't think you can conflate other unstated potential grievances e.g. Pay as reasons they have taken the action they have. The stated grievance from their representatives is specifically with the CPSs decision to charge NX121 with Murder as they perceive this as a change in assessment of what is described as split second decisions. They are also not happy with Mark Rowley as they do not feel he is supportive. Quite what Mark Rowley could have done to influence an independent organisation I don't know. They may have a point regarding CPS, I don't know, but who is to say if previous criteria for evaluation was correct. This will be the first prosecution of a Met Police Officer discharging a firearm in the line of duty resulting in death. It also pays no regard that there may be particular circumstances in this case which will only be revealed in Court If you read this thread from the beginning, first there was a rush to exonerate the Police Officer and character assinate the deceased. Then there were attempts to analyse the "known" evidence to justify the first impulse Now people are attempting to discredit the whole legal process of investigation and charging decision. Perhaps it is the influence of "Reality" Shows and Facebook that encourage people to give instant uninformed opinions. In that realm it is merely trivial, in this case its very serious It's also silly to conflate "all Met Police are corrupt" I certainly don't believe that but it doesn't alter the fact that 1600 or about 5% of the force is under investigation for alleged violence against women or sexual abuse. Maybe the Job elevates testosterone levels Where I will agree with you is being a Police Officer is not an easy Job made more difficult under this Government Administration by swinging cuts rather than as you point out increased resources to account for population increases. It is no different to other Jobs in the Public Service who have suffered a similar fate. Emergency Wards at chucking out time tend to resemble a War Zone where the inebriated "Casualties" pass the time harassing the Medical Staff or worse You agree that the Rule of Law should be applied equally to Police and Civilians. Like you I have no idea what processes Police Officers feel they should be subject to differently to the general Public, if that is indeed their position. |
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Post by knype on Sept 25, 2023 13:10:59 GMT
Well you have your wish, looks like the Met now have zero armed officers available. Don’t really know where they go from here, but let’s hope it’s not into a serious incident that requires the use of such force God help us if there’s a terrorist attack in London. We will just hold hands, carry banners and hold a vigil for the mentally ill terrorist |
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Post by phileetin on Sept 25, 2023 13:40:43 GMT
most have now returned back www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66909729wasn't the car associated with a previous armed incident ? and can't a vehelce driven dangerously on purpose be considered to be a weapon ? i think we have to wait for the full facts of the incident before jumping to conclusions . i suspect that if the officer hadn't been charged in the way he has riots would have erupted in the racial community affected as in the USA. don't know if any of these points have been reflected in the earlier part of the thread but i wasn't prepared to trawl through 10 pages |
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Post by Gawa on Sept 25, 2023 14:01:08 GMT
I think where we're differing here is. You see these officers handing in their permits to be more directly related to this particular incident and you believe it's because they wish to avoid scrutiny or something along those lines. I know this won't be precisely what you mean but something like that. I see this action more as the straw which broke the camels back. Idiots like Lee Anderson and Suella Braverman have been criticising our police officers for months. You get cunts walking about outside stations and throwing their phones in officers faces to do "audits". Then you have the law changes where the tories want to prevent people from the right to protest which is more shit thrown at them. Then the large numbers of videos which get posted online, and often edited and taken out of context, to potray officers badly. Of course some of these are legit too and highlight corruption or mistakes made as well. Fact of the matter is though it's a very difficult job which in todays society doesn't pay enough for the responsibility which comes with it. When you add the sharp reduction in the number of officers too and that number of residents per police officer is at record levels, again adding further pressure and stress to the job - enough is enough. This isn't solely about "Chris Kaba" in my opinion. If officers were allowed to strike by law, I imagine they'd have been striking months ago due to a range of issues in the force. This is them finally standing up, putting their fingers up to the politicians and whoever else, and saying "fuck it - we're done". And I support that decision and their right to do that. And if people do think they're all corrupt then I'd presume they'd be happy too? As there's 100 less corrupt cops with guns to worry about. We can't have it both ways though. We can't allege and suggest every police officer is this or that and then when the police officers give up their permits complain again that they shouldn't be doing that. It's a very difficult and complex role made even more challenging with the rise of social media and a government not fit to serve. For every mistake which gets shared all over social and main stream meida, there are another 100 cases of good work which don't get recorded or shared widely. The media which we see in relation to the police is only the "bad news" which in my opinion influences peoples views as we only ever see one side of the story. Now I honestly do not know what they're requesting or asking for here with this action/protest. I haven't read into the details enough and I'm not sure if anyone knows the full picture either right now given it's still breaking. But I personally feel this isn't happening solely due to the Chris Kaba case. I think police are fed up and rightly so, and I support their action because it is a difficult thankless task which everyone wants to have their say on. But the thing nobody seems to talk about is the solution or how to fix the problem. The majority of the biggest critics wouldn't want to do the job themselves. And if we are unable to propose or find solutions to the problems and just want to complain about them then that's not really helping in my opinion. I do think police should still come under the same rule of law as ourselves and their actions scrutinised in a court where it's found they maybe haven't acted appropriately. At the same time though, I don't have a strong enough understanding of what the processes faced currently are and what, if any, changes these and other police want done to that. Pulling a trigger is very much a split second action where someone has to think on their feet and just like any job people will get things wrong at times. And I think when reviewing cases this needs to be taking into account too along with all other supporting evidence. It's like reviewing a football match though and saying during match of the day that a player should do XYZ instead. It's much easier to say that when watching the highlights after than it is to do it in the heat of the moment under pressure. And while yes I agree it's their job, we also need to be realistic with expectations too. If NI is anything to go by, the last thing people will want in England is the army on the streets filling in for the police. If history is anything to go by, they're even more trigger happy. I have never criticised AFOs for handing in their ticket to carry firearms. I believe its a fundamental right of anyone to withdraw their, in this case, voluntary labour. Ironic as some who are supporting their decision to withdraw were critical of others namely Doctors and Nurses doing the same I don't think you can conflate other unstated potential grievances e.g. Pay as reasons they have taken the action they have. The stated grievance from their representatives is specifically with the CPSs decision to charge NX121 with Murder as they perceive this as a change in assessment of what is described as split second decisions. They are also not happy with Mark Rowley as they do not feel he is supportive. Quite what Mark Rowley could have done to influence an independent organisation I don't know. They may have a point regarding CPS, I don't know, but who is to say if previous criteria for evaluation was correct. This will be the first prosecution of a Met Police Officer discharging a firearm in the line of duty resulting in death. It also pays no regard that there may be particular circumstances in this case which will only be revealed in Court If you read this thread from the beginning, first there was a rush to exonerate the Police Officer and character assinate the deceased. Then there were attempts to analyse the "known" evidence to justify the first impulse Now people are attempting to discredit the whole legal process of investigation and charging decision. Perhaps it is the influence of "Reality" Shows and Facebook that encourage people to give instant uninformed opinions. In that realm it is merely trivial, in this case its very serious It's also silly to conflate "all Met Police are corrupt" I certainly don't believe that but it doesn't alter the fact that 1600 or about 5% of the force is under investigation for alleged violence against women or sexual abuse. Maybe the Job elevates testosterone levels Where I will agree with you is being a Police Officer is not an easy Job made more difficult under this Government Administration by swinging cuts rather than as you point out increased resources to account for population increases. It is no different to other Jobs in the Public Service who have suffered a similar fate. Emergency Wards at chucking out time tend to resemble a War Zone where the inebriated "Casualties" pass the time harassing the Medical Staff or worse You agree that the Rule of Law should be applied equally to Police and Civilians. Like you I have no idea what processes Police Officers feel they should be subject to differently to the general Public, if that is indeed their position. I'm basing my opinion that the decision wasn't solely based on the Chris Kaba case on the quotes provided by the former chief constable of Greater Manchester police. He said: "It is part of a bigger picture where there is a huge level of discontent among ordinary police officers where there is a huge gulf between policing and the Home Office. Officers feel a lot of the criticism is unbalanced, that they are underappreciated and that the media and politicians don't understand the reality of day-to-day policing." Of course this decision has came off the back of this particular case so it certainly was a major influence but I think the issues run deeper than just this incident and this incident was the straw which broke the camels back. I did read parts of the thread, but not from start to finish. And I don't agree myself with the rhetoric of "yeh but he committed this crime before so that makes it ok." It rings similar to what people said about George Floyd and I disagree with that. Whatever force or action which is used at the time should most certainly be appropriate and someones past crimes shouldn't be used as a justification for when mistakes are made. I don't know enough on the case though to be certain if it was or wasn't appropriate. I'd like to think there were plenty of police with body cams on at the time though which should be able to prove if the officer was right or wrong and I'll leave the courts to decide that. I would be concerned if there was very little body cam footage available because I believe there were a number of officers at the scene so there should be plenty of footage. In terms of 5% of the force being under investigation. I've had lots of heated arguments with my girlfriend over this sort of stuff as she likes to stereotype the police and bring out similar stats. Of course I don't think that's ok but at the same time I'm conscious of the fact that we already don't have enough police as it is and I reckon there is very little appetite for people to join, and the recent recruitment struggles seem to show that too. So I just route back to "well what's the solution", we all know the problems and can shout about them till our throats sore but it doesn't actually fix anything. And this is what I say to my girlfriend too, of course it isn't ok but I'm not going to assume under investigation means guilty and I'm not going to stereotype the many by the actions of a few either. And ultimately I come back to the government and that's who I hold most accountable because this is happening under their watch and as usual they're doing little to tackle it. If anything people like Lee Anderson and Suella Braverman are adding fuel to the fire themselves along with the media. Completely agree with your second to last paragraph and that's my worry. There are alot of people seemingly desperate to be journalists solely reporting on police nowadays and that makes the job very difficult. From these daft auditers to others who want to just record police anytime they see them and try to catch them out or crop a video to paint them in a bad light. I imagine as an officer it must be incredibly pressured comepared to 20 years ago because literally every second of your job is potentially being recorded. And the pay hasn't risen enough over the last 20 years to have to deal with that bs as well. Don't get me wrong, it has it's benefits in the sense of catching out corrupt officers doing wrong but I imagine there are also alot of very good resposible cops finding themselves on the wrong side of these videos too over silly things such as maybe not knowing a specific law word by word. If my job meant that people could record me then I'm sure I'd be found out for slacking and making mistakes too which would make me look bad. I really have little to no idea though in terms of what the government/police/cps wish to change in terms of dealing with these cases and that does concern me too because police should still be held accountable for their actions especially where a life is taken. But at the same time context is also very important and I don't think an officer who truly felt at risk and pulled a trigger should be punished with the full extent of the law either. And I guess this is where things get a bit grey. Trying to establish the risk at the time as well any potential motives. I certainly don't trust this conservative government in finding the right solution to the problem either. No doubt they'll try and use this for political point scoring because they don't really give a shit about anything other than power. |
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Post by franklin on Sept 25, 2023 14:37:12 GMT
I think where we're differing here is. You see these officers handing in their permits to be more directly related to this particular incident and you believe it's because they wish to avoid scrutiny or something along those lines. I know this won't be precisely what you mean but something like that. I see this action more as the straw which broke the camels back. Idiots like Lee Anderson and Suella Braverman have been criticising our police officers for months. You get cunts walking about outside stations and throwing their phones in officers faces to do "audits". Then you have the law changes where the tories want to prevent people from the right to protest which is more shit thrown at them. Then the large numbers of videos which get posted online, and often edited and taken out of context, to potray officers badly. Of course some of these are legit too and highlight corruption or mistakes made as well. Fact of the matter is though it's a very difficult job which in todays society doesn't pay enough for the responsibility which comes with it. When you add the sharp reduction in the number of officers too and that number of residents per police officer is at record levels, again adding further pressure and stress to the job - enough is enough. This isn't solely about "Chris Kaba" in my opinion. If officers were allowed to strike by law, I imagine they'd have been striking months ago due to a range of issues in the force. This is them finally standing up, putting their fingers up to the politicians and whoever else, and saying "fuck it - we're done". And I support that decision and their right to do that. And if people do think they're all corrupt then I'd presume they'd be happy too? As there's 100 less corrupt cops with guns to worry about. We can't have it both ways though. We can't allege and suggest every police officer is this or that and then when the police officers give up their permits complain again that they shouldn't be doing that. It's a very difficult and complex role made even more challenging with the rise of social media and a government not fit to serve. For every mistake which gets shared all over social and main stream meida, there are another 100 cases of good work which don't get recorded or shared widely. The media which we see in relation to the police is only the "bad news" which in my opinion influences peoples views as we only ever see one side of the story. Now I honestly do not know what they're requesting or asking for here with this action/protest. I haven't read into the details enough and I'm not sure if anyone knows the full picture either right now given it's still breaking. But I personally feel this isn't happening solely due to the Chris Kaba case. I think police are fed up and rightly so, and I support their action because it is a difficult thankless task which everyone wants to have their say on. But the thing nobody seems to talk about is the solution or how to fix the problem. The majority of the biggest critics wouldn't want to do the job themselves. And if we are unable to propose or find solutions to the problems and just want to complain about them then that's not really helping in my opinion. I do think police should still come under the same rule of law as ourselves and their actions scrutinised in a court where it's found they maybe haven't acted appropriately. At the same time though, I don't have a strong enough understanding of what the processes faced currently are and what, if any, changes these and other police want done to that. Pulling a trigger is very much a split second action where someone has to think on their feet and just like any job people will get things wrong at times. And I think when reviewing cases this needs to be taking into account too along with all other supporting evidence. It's like reviewing a football match though and saying during match of the day that a player should do XYZ instead. It's much easier to say that when watching the highlights after than it is to do it in the heat of the moment under pressure. And while yes I agree it's their job, we also need to be realistic with expectations too. If NI is anything to go by, the last thing people will want in England is the army on the streets filling in for the police. If history is anything to go by, they're even more trigger happy. I have never criticised AFOs for handing in their ticket to carry firearms. I believe its a fundamental right of anyone to withdraw their, in this case, voluntary labour. Ironic as some who are supporting their decision to withdraw were critical of others namely Doctors and Nurses doing the same I don't think you can conflate other unstated potential grievances e.g. Pay as reasons they have taken the action they have. The stated grievance from their representatives is specifically with the CPSs decision to charge NX121 with Murder as they perceive this as a change in assessment of what is described as split second decisions. They are also not happy with Mark Rowley as they do not feel he is supportive. Quite what Mark Rowley could have done to influence an independent organisation I don't know. They may have a point regarding CPS, I don't know, but who is to say if previous criteria for evaluation was correct. This will be the first prosecution of a Met Police Officer discharging a firearm in the line of duty resulting in death. It also pays no regard that there may be particular circumstances in this case which will only be revealed in Court If you read this thread from the beginning, first there was a rush to exonerate the Police Officer and character assinate the deceased. Then there were attempts to analyse the "known" evidence to justify the first impulse Now people are attempting to discredit the whole legal process of investigation and charging decision. Perhaps it is the influence of "Reality" Shows and Facebook that encourage people to give instant uninformed opinions. In that realm it is merely trivial, in this case its very serious It's also silly to conflate "all Met Police are corrupt" I certainly don't believe that but it doesn't alter the fact that 1600 or about 5% of the force is under investigation for alleged violence against women or sexual abuse. Maybe the Job elevates testosterone levels Where I will agree with you is being a Police Officer is not an easy Job made more difficult under this Government Administration by swinging cuts rather than as you point out increased resources to account for population increases. It is no different to other Jobs in the Public Service who have suffered a similar fate. Emergency Wards at chucking out time tend to resemble a War Zone where the inebriated "Casualties" pass the time harassing the Medical Staff or worse You agree that the Rule of Law should be applied equally to Police and Civilians. Like you I have no idea what processes Police Officers feel they should be subject to differently to the general Public, if that is indeed their position. You've not described them as "dangerous" for handing in their tickets ?? If that's not critical of them I don't know what is. |
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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Sept 25, 2023 15:08:33 GMT
most have now returned back www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66909729wasn't the car associated with a previous armed incident ? and can't a vehelce driven dangerously on purpose be considered to be a weapon ? i think we have to wait for the full facts of the incident before jumping to conclusions . i suspect that if the officer hadn't been charged in the way he has riots would have erupted in the racial community affected as in the USA. don't know if any of these points have been reflected in the earlier part of the thread but i wasn't prepared to trawl through 10 pages I think part of the problem is the clear bias from mainstream media against police in the way they portray members of the public who have lost their lives when there’s been an incident. They simply don’t give honest portrayals whether it’s the lads in Wales or Chris Kaba. They portray Kaba as this fun guy who has a child on the way who was studying as an architect when the reality was very different. Some of what’s said is quite subtle. In the case of the young lads in Wales they displayed photos of them as 8 year olds rather than more recent ones where they had their fingers in the usual gun poses. |
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Post by wannabee on Sept 25, 2023 15:22:33 GMT
I have never criticised AFOs for handing in their ticket to carry firearms. I believe its a fundamental right of anyone to withdraw their, in this case, voluntary labour. Ironic as some who are supporting their decision to withdraw were critical of others namely Doctors and Nurses doing the same I don't think you can conflate other unstated potential grievances e.g. Pay as reasons they have taken the action they have. The stated grievance from their representatives is specifically with the CPSs decision to charge NX121 with Murder as they perceive this as a change in assessment of what is described as split second decisions. They are also not happy with Mark Rowley as they do not feel he is supportive. Quite what Mark Rowley could have done to influence an independent organisation I don't know. They may have a point regarding CPS, I don't know, but who is to say if previous criteria for evaluation was correct. This will be the first prosecution of a Met Police Officer discharging a firearm in the line of duty resulting in death. It also pays no regard that there may be particular circumstances in this case which will only be revealed in Court If you read this thread from the beginning, first there was a rush to exonerate the Police Officer and character assinate the deceased. Then there were attempts to analyse the "known" evidence to justify the first impulse Now people are attempting to discredit the whole legal process of investigation and charging decision. Perhaps it is the influence of "Reality" Shows and Facebook that encourage people to give instant uninformed opinions. In that realm it is merely trivial, in this case its very serious It's also silly to conflate "all Met Police are corrupt" I certainly don't believe that but it doesn't alter the fact that 1600 or about 5% of the force is under investigation for alleged violence against women or sexual abuse. Maybe the Job elevates testosterone levels Where I will agree with you is being a Police Officer is not an easy Job made more difficult under this Government Administration by swinging cuts rather than as you point out increased resources to account for population increases. It is no different to other Jobs in the Public Service who have suffered a similar fate. Emergency Wards at chucking out time tend to resemble a War Zone where the inebriated "Casualties" pass the time harassing the Medical Staff or worse You agree that the Rule of Law should be applied equally to Police and Civilians. Like you I have no idea what processes Police Officers feel they should be subject to differently to the general Public, if that is indeed their position. I'm basing my opinion that the decision wasn't solely based on the Chris Kaba case on the quotes provided by the former chief constable of Greater Manchester police. He said: "It is part of a bigger picture where there is a huge level of discontent among ordinary police officers where there is a huge gulf between policing and the Home Office. Officers feel a lot of the criticism is unbalanced, that they are underappreciated and that the media and politicians don't understand the reality of day-to-day policing." Of course this decision has came off the back of this particular case so it certainly was a major influence but I think the issues run deeper than just this incident and this incident was the straw which broke the camels back. I did read parts of the thread, but not from start to finish. And I don't agree myself with the rhetoric of "yeh but he committed this crime before so that makes it ok." It rings similar to what people said about George Floyd and I disagree with that. Whatever force or action which is used at the time should most certainly be appropriate and someones past crimes shouldn't be used as a justification for when mistakes are made. I don't know enough on the case though to be certain if it was or wasn't appropriate. I'd like to think there were plenty of police with body cams on at the time though which should be able to prove if the officer was right or wrong and I'll leave the courts to decide that. I would be concerned if there was very little body cam footage available because I believe there were a number of officers at the scene so there should be plenty of footage. In terms of 5% of the force being under investigation. I've had lots of heated arguments with my girlfriend over this sort of stuff as she likes to stereotype the police and bring out similar stats. Of course I don't think that's ok but at the same time I'm conscious of the fact that we already don't have enough police as it is and I reckon there is very little appetite for people to join, and the recent recruitment struggles seem to show that too. So I just route back to "well what's the solution", we all know the problems and can shout about them till our throats sore but it doesn't actually fix anything. And this is what I say to my girlfriend too, of course it isn't ok but I'm not going to assume under investigation means guilty and I'm not going to stereotype the many by the actions of a few either. And ultimately I come back to the government and that's who I hold most accountable because this is happening under their watch and as usual they're doing little to tackle it. If anything people like Lee Anderson and Suella Braverman are adding fuel to the fire themselves along with the media. Completely agree with your second to last paragraph and that's my worry. There are alot of people seemingly desperate to be journalists solely reporting on police nowadays and that makes the job very difficult. From these daft auditers to others who want to just record police anytime they see them and try to catch them out or crop a video to paint them in a bad light. I imagine as an officer it must be incredibly pressured comepared to 20 years ago because literally every second of your job is potentially being recorded. And the pay hasn't risen enough over the last 20 years to have to deal with that bs as well. Don't get me wrong, it has it's benefits in the sense of catching out corrupt officers doing wrong but I imagine there are also alot of very good resposible cops finding themselves on the wrong side of these videos too over silly things such as maybe not knowing a specific law word by word. If my job meant that people could record me then I'm sure I'd be found out for slacking and making mistakes too which would make me look bad. I really have little to no idea though in terms of what the government/police/cps wish to change in terms of dealing with these cases and that does concern me too because police should still be held accountable for their actions especially where a life is taken. But at the same time context is also very important and I don't think an officer who truly felt at risk and pulled a trigger should be punished with the full extent of the law either. And I guess this is where things get a bit grey. Trying to establish the risk at the time as well any potential motives. I certainly don't trust this conservative government in finding the right solution to the problem either. No doubt they'll try and use this for political point scoring because they don't really give a shit about anything other than power. I think we'll have to agree to differ on the cause of the angst I just watched an interview with Mark Williams CEO of PFOA He first stated the principle that Police Officers should be subject to the same Laws as everyone else. He said, my words, generally when Officers are involved in a Firearms incidents they are ostracised but if they shoot a Terrorist people fall over themselves for photo opportunities. Another grievance was the length of time investigations take, I totally concur. But the principle reason he cited was Legal Clarity due to the July 2023 Supreme Court Decision which the Met lost against IOPC. This I contend is "The Straw that broke the Camels back" and coincidentally the Kaba case is the first since that Supreme Court decision You can read the full details of the case in the link but this is the main point The ruling means that in use of force self-defence cases involving police officers, it is the civil law test that should be applied in police disciplinary proceedings, rather than the criminal law test. The main difference is that under the civil law test, a person who uses force cannot rely on unreasonable mistakes when seeking to justify their use of force, whereas they can in criminal proceedings. www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/supreme-court-backs-iopc-landmark-rulingIf I'm understanding you correctly I would agree more with your girlfriend than you. Of course being under investigation doesn't mean guilty but Mark Rowley has warned of more unpleasant revelations and requested additional power to dismiss rogue officers. It's also interesting to note that the Baroness Casey Report into the Met singled out Firearms Divisions in particular as having an attitude of being above the Law. Of course there should be ample Police Bodycam evidence available In fact at least some, if not all, has been shown to Kaba's Family. When the Family made no comment after viewing the Bodycam evidence it was enough for the experts on here to signal "there's nothing to see here" Case Closed One final point. The AFOs dissatisfaction with the Supreme Court decision would require an Act of Parliament. This will give Cruella plenty of opportunity to score Political Points and create a Culture War. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Sept 25, 2023 15:34:16 GMT
If you read Franklins post he gets it spot on. They’re simply choosing not to do a (voluntary) role within the police that could result in them ending up in prison if they make a genuine mistake. That’s there right. I’m not sure why that makes them in your words quote “cunts.” Braverman’s support is too little too late. She’s only getting involved now because she’s terrified there’s going to be no one to deal with a serious terrorist incident and she’s going to be left with the army who may be a little more robust and won’t be as well trained. In relation to the stats there have been over 18000 firearms incidents in the U.K. (incidents involving people with firearms or other weapons). How many of those incidents do you think officers have discharged a firearm? 10 is the answer or 1 in 1800. Hardly the behaviour of a group of men or women who are gung ho or dangerous is it and that figures highly unlikely to change any time soon. Perhaps the reason it’s so low is because they receive extensive training where I’m sure it’s made quite clear re the consequence of firing. Even those that shot the terrorists in London Bridge were immediately suspended and they were heroes. No wonder it’s a job no one wants to do. They’re deciding the law. Which is dangerous. As for Braverman commenting on an active murder case in public, she should be suspended immediately. But of course this government have no standards.  |
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Post by Gawa on Sept 25, 2023 15:34:43 GMT
most have now returned back www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66909729wasn't the car associated with a previous armed incident ? and can't a vehelce driven dangerously on purpose be considered to be a weapon ? i think we have to wait for the full facts of the incident before jumping to conclusions . i suspect that if the officer hadn't been charged in the way he has riots would have erupted in the racial community affected as in the USA. don't know if any of these points have been reflected in the earlier part of the thread but i wasn't prepared to trawl through 10 pages I think part of the problem is the clear bias from mainstream media against police in the way they portray members of the public who have lost their lives when there’s been an incident. They simply don’t give honest portrayals whether it’s the lads in Wales or Chris Kaba. They portray Kaba as this fun guy who has a child on the way who was studying as an architect when the reality was very different. Some of what’s said is quite subtle. In the case of the young lads in Wales they displayed photos of them as 8 year olds rather than more recent ones where they had their fingers in the usual gun poses. I made an observation a few months ago myself mate that it appears the media, for whatever reason, have been ramping up their reporting on anything which could be deemed or considered misconduct by police. Shortly after the incident with the 2 boys in Wales there was a similar one in the North somewhere which was being reported as "police pursueing" and trying to put blame on the police. Then I think new details came out quite quickly to disprove any wrong doing and the story just disappeared. Also does nobody else find it very strange how the media have ramped up their reporting of any police controversies over the last few months. The police don't become corrupt in a couple of months. But a decision has been made to report alot more on their conduct recently. The media don't give a fuck about police corruption, its gone on for years, so why now. Just feels like there's more behind this. The difference for me between Chris Kaba and the boys in Wales is that the boys in Wales in my opinion died due to their own actions. Chris Kaba similarly evaded police but rather than crashing and died, he was killed due to being shot. Had the police shot those boys in Wales, who also had a criminal past, I don't think I'd be able to stand by and defend it under the "oh well he did this once" angle. I don't think many people wake up and suddenly decide they want to be a criminal either. And in the current cost of living crisis there's going to be even more people which resort to a criminal life, not for the thrill of it, but to survive and live. This doesn't mean that if the police suddenly shoot them that I can stand by and say "oh well he robbed a shop in 2019 so he's a scumbag and got what he deserved". Not sure where I'm going with this, rambling as usual. I do agree though in a sense that the media haven't helped at all. I don't think in Chris Kaba's case though that his criminal background has been hidden. The daily mail and other news websites did numerous stories highlighting his links to criminal activity - www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11392487/Chris-Kaba-suspected-five-men-nightclub-gun-attack-days-earlier.htmlAnyway rambling. But I do agree and disagree  The media certainly are up to tricks in some shape or form on both sides of the political compass. |
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The media certainly are up to tricks in some shape or form on both sides of the political compass. 
