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Post by loosestools on Sept 3, 2022 9:59:01 GMT
"Sometimes it’s difficult because you haven’t got any time really to put foundations in. Pre-season is the key time because you can embed your principles in, you get the lads working and understanding and you can recruit for the shape you’re going to play and how you’re going to play. You have the best players utilised to do those roles and then you can really set yourself up for the season."
Thank the Lord we have someone who views pre season as a vital part of determining the strategy and not just getting fit after a holiday. Our pre season looked a shambles to me and that's when alarm bells rang in my head.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 3, 2022 10:11:27 GMT
The conditioning under MoN was frightening but then it hasn’t been too different under the blokes before him too.
We just haven’t looked a fit energised team since the first few Hughes sides.
And with poor conditioning you’ll get injuries.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 3, 2022 10:17:11 GMT
The conditioning under MoN was frightening but then it hasn’t been too different under the blokes before him too. We just haven’t looked a fit energised team since the first few Hughes sides. And with poor conditioning you’ll get injuries. There is no wrong and right. It's just different approaches. It's impossible to keep a player at their peak for 9 months or however long a season lasts. |
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Post by milky on Sept 3, 2022 10:21:19 GMT
We are where we are and I'm confident AN will get it right though we may have to accept a bumpy ride for the next month or 2 as he tries to implement his ideas and get players out of bad habits that have just become the norm eg ,looking like we actually know what do do with a throw in.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 3, 2022 10:22:00 GMT
The conditioning under MoN was frightening but then it hasn’t been too different under the blokes before him too. We just haven’t looked a fit energised team since the first few Hughes sides. And with poor conditioning you’ll get injuries. There is no wrong and right. It's just different approaches. It's impossible to keep a player at their peak for 9 months or however long a season lasts. I mean there clearly is. We haven’t had a team that look fit for years. That is clearly wrong. Two seasons of loads of injuries in a row and the third starting the same isn’t a coincidence. |
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Post by Marc01 on Sept 3, 2022 10:24:55 GMT
The conditioning under MoN was frightening but then it hasn’t been too different under the blokes before him too. We just haven’t looked a fit energised team since the first few Hughes sides. And with poor conditioning you’ll get injuries. Noting the approach to fitness of Lou Macari and TP (and their successes with the club), it would seem that criteria relating to appointment of recent managers has not necessarily focussed on a their commitment to the highest levels of fitness. It is a basic and key requirement. The perception is that everything has been far too comfortable; that took hold during the Mark Hughes era and has remained to date. |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 3, 2022 10:29:22 GMT
There is no wrong and right. It's just different approaches. It's impossible to keep a player at their peak for 9 months or however long a season lasts. I mean there clearly is. We haven’t had a team that look fit for years. That is clearly wrong. Two seasons of loads of injuries in a row and the third starting the same isn’t a coincidence. If they start at peak they'll plateau for a period then begin to fall away and be on their arse by the end of the season(Pulis). If you come in slightly undercooked build to peak then plateau then start to fall away again(Hughes) the concept is that they're never on their arse. I doubt the injuries will be much different but the likelihood is that they'll occur at different stages of the season ie on the upward curve, the downward curve and the most likely when they're on their arse. |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 3, 2022 10:31:19 GMT
The conditioning under MoN was frightening but then it hasn’t been too different under the blokes before him too. We just haven’t looked a fit energised team since the first few Hughes sides. And with poor conditioning you’ll get injuries. Noting the approach to fitness of Lou Macari and TP (and their successes with the club), it would seem that criteria relating to appointment of recent managers has not necessarily focussed on a their commitment to the highest levels of fitness. It is a basic and key requirement. The perception is that everything has been far too comfortable; that took hold during the Mark Hughes era and has remained to date. Not at all it's a different more scientific approach to fitness that doesn't involve starting at peak as explained in my other post. It's not because all these other managers are soft as shit. |
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Post by gawa on Sept 3, 2022 10:35:00 GMT
We are where we are and I'm confident AN will get it right though we may have to accept a bumpy ride for the next month or 2 as he tries to implement his ideas and get players out of bad habits that have just become the norm eg ,looking like we actually know what do do with a throw in. What even happened to our throw ins under MON. When he first joined I remember him identyfing throw ins as something to work on as we weren't retaining possession enough from them. Seems to have went to shit this year though :/ |
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Post by Marc01 on Sept 3, 2022 10:35:21 GMT
Noting the approach to fitness of Lou Macari and TP (and their successes with the club), it would seem that criteria relating to appointment of recent managers has not necessarily focussed on a their commitment to the highest levels of fitness. It is a basic and key requirement. The perception is that everything has been far too comfortable; that took hold during the Mark Hughes era and has remained to date. Not at all it's a different more scientific approach to fitness that doesn't involve starting at peak as explained in my other post. It's not because all these other managers are soft as shit. All of the managers have had fitness teams adopting a scientific approach. There have been obvious failures. |
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Post by milky on Sept 3, 2022 10:37:22 GMT
We are where we are and I'm confident AN will get it right though we may have to accept a bumpy ride for the next month or 2 as he tries to implement his ideas and get players out of bad habits that have just become the norm eg ,looking like we actually know what do do with a throw in. What even happened to our throw ins under MON. When he first joined I remember him identyfing throw ins as something to work on as we weren't retaining possession enough from them. Seems to have went to shit this year though :/ For whatever reason he completely lost his way and its why he is no longer the manager thankfully and we can ( hopefully) start looking a team that knows what they are doing again. |
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Post by gawa on Sept 3, 2022 10:40:24 GMT
What even happened to our throw ins under MON. When he first joined I remember him identyfing throw ins as something to work on as we weren't retaining possession enough from them. Seems to have went to shit this year though :/ For whatever reason he completely lost his way and its why he is no longer the manager thankfully and we can ( hopefully) start looking a team that knows what they are doing again. Hopefully we've seen the end of 10 players in a box defending a set piece too lol. That's been doing my nerves no good this season. |
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Post by wilcopotter on Sept 3, 2022 10:44:28 GMT
"Sometimes it’s difficult because you haven’t got any time really to put foundations in. Pre-season is the key time because you can embed your principles in, you get the lads working and understanding and you can recruit for the shape you’re going to play and how you’re going to play. You have the best players utilised to do those roles and then you can really set yourself up for the season." Thank the Lord we have someone who views pre season as a vital part of determining the strategy and not just getting fit after a holiday. Our pre season looked a shambles to me and that's when alarm bells rang in my head. I agree and the remaining coaching staff were all party to that. Would go as far to say, what’s O’Shea been doing with the defence for the last 6 weeks? They don’t even seem to be a cohesive unit at times. For example, Swansea goal the other night. |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 3, 2022 10:46:27 GMT
Not at all it's a different more scientific approach to fitness that doesn't involve starting at peak as explained in my other post. It's not because all these other managers are soft as shit. All of the managers have had fitness teams adopting a scientific approach. There have been obvious failures. But your explanation of it is way too simple and favouring a macho non scientific approach. |
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Post by Do it for dobing on Sept 3, 2022 10:59:39 GMT
The conditioning under MoN was frightening but then it hasn’t been too different under the blokes before him too. We just haven’t looked a fit energised team since the first few Hughes sides. And with poor conditioning you’ll get injuries. [/quote Not sure what Mark Hughes is getting dragged into this for I don't need to remind you we enjoyed 3 top 10 finishes plus a 13th which is light years ahead of our present situation Players like Arni, Shaw, Crouchy Peters etc seemed fit enough to compete at a much higher level than we are now |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2022 11:01:03 GMT
There is no wrong and right. It's just different approaches. It's impossible to keep a player at their peak for 9 months or however long a season lasts. I mean there clearly is. We haven’t had a team that look fit for years. That is clearly wrong. Two seasons of loads of injuries in a row and the third starting the same isn’t a coincidence. Last time I looked, we were on par with injuries with the majority of teams in this division. Where we got unlucky was getting those injuries to our most important players and getting them for longer |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 3, 2022 11:04:17 GMT
The conditioning under MoN was frightening but then it hasn’t been too different under the blokes before him too. We just haven’t looked a fit energised team since the first few Hughes sides. And with poor conditioning you’ll get injuries. Not sure what Mark Hughes is getting dragged into this for I don't need to remind you we enjoyed 3 top 10 finishes plus a 13th which is light years ahead of our present situation Players like Arni, Shaw, Crouchy Peters etc seemed fit enough to compete at a much higher level than we are now Indeed hence why I said since his first few seasons. I think his last couple though we did look an unfit side. |
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Post by Marc01 on Sept 3, 2022 11:07:04 GMT
All of the managers have had fitness teams adopting a scientific approach. There have been obvious failures. But your explanation of it is way too simple and favouring a macho non scientific approach. There’s nothing macho about it, it’s a basic requirement for professional athletes and those that manage them. Feel free to give a complex explanation of where all of the fitness teams adopting a scientific approach have failed in recent years. The approach of TP and Mark Hughes resulted in strong finishes and weak ones in respect of results. Results are not all down to fitness but the overriding perception is that things have been far too comfortable. It was interesting to hear Clive Clarke express a similar view. I recall Nathan Jones expressing an ethos (at the end of 18/19) that the next season we could look forward to high levels of fitness (I think he chose words to the effect of “boxing kangaroos”). We never got to find out, but it’s the only time I recall a recent manager expressing an ethos or commitment to fitness. |
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Post by canadianmoose on Sept 3, 2022 11:24:13 GMT
Whatever the “approach”, there are teams in this division that look like they could run through brick walls for 90 minutes. Our lot look like they couldn’t run through a wet paper bag.
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Post by loosestools on Sept 3, 2022 11:26:13 GMT
So, fitness levels should be 'a given' its the style of play which needs to be addressed by the manager and recruitment to suit. Pre season puts it all together. We were shocking. it was all over the place.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 3, 2022 11:39:55 GMT
But your explanation of it is way too simple and favouring a macho non scientific approach. There’s nothing macho about it, it’s a basic requirement for professional athletes and those that manage them. Feel free to give a complex explanation of where all of the fitness teams adopting a scientific approach have failed in recent years. The approach of TP and Mark Hughes resulted in strong finishes and weak ones in respect of results. Results are not all down to fitness but the overriding perception is that things have been far too comfortable. It was interesting to hear Clive Clarke express a similar view. I recall Nathan Jones expressing an ethos (at the end of 18/19) that the next season we could look forward to high levels of fitness (I think he chose words to the effect of “boxing kangaroos”). We never got to find out, but it’s the only time I recall a recent manager expressing an ethos or commitment to fitness. I thought the explanation I posted was pretty complex. It's certainly as complex as I can manage I'm not a scientist. I understand the concept in a pretty loose way that it's impossible to keep elite athletes at their peak for the length of an entire season. I accept that concept I've never tested it. The theory sounds credible ie not starting at peak but working upto a plateau then coming down the other side ensuring you're never actually on your arse. I'm not sure the comfortable that Clive Clarke was on about was alluding to that at all. I think he was on about all this Oh morale and team spirt is so good and everybody loves one another all the nicey nicey harmony bollocks when theres no edge no anger when you're losing, players should be getting into each other demanding more of each other and themselves. It's not something I've witnessed if you'd just walked into the game you'd have a job to know they were losing without looking at the scoreboard and even after the final whistle they don't look that arsed that the've lost again at home. |
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Post by xchpotter on Sept 3, 2022 12:02:20 GMT
He’s spot and I knew he’d reference fitness as frankly our players are not fit. Not since the days of TP have I felt our players to have been fit enough from day one of the season. Far too many trips abroad against mediocre opposition (who we still don’t manage to beat) and next to no intensity. Hence we go in half cooked.
I’d much rather see the players getting beasted up and down hills and as many games as possible against at least league one teams no more than four hours away by coach.
Hopefully Neil sorts it for next season and delivers conditioned, hungry footballers who know how they will be playing from the day one kick off.
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Post by stokecitydom on Sept 3, 2022 12:07:10 GMT
We are where we are and I'm confident AN will get it right though we may have to accept a bumpy ride for the next month or 2 as he tries to implement his ideas and get players out of bad habits that have just become the norm eg ,looking like we actually know what do do with a throw in. What even happened to our throw ins under MON. When he first joined I remember him identyfing throw ins as something to work on as we weren't retaining possession enough from them. Seems to have went to shit this year though :/ Stoke City have had a long running issue with throw ins. Most teams a throw in is a chance to work up the pitch or retain possession. With is it is a 50/50 lottery as to whether we give it away or not. The lack of movement or clue what to do has been a major annoyance to me for years. |
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Post by Marc01 on Sept 3, 2022 12:07:16 GMT
There’s nothing macho about it, it’s a basic requirement for professional athletes and those that manage them. Feel free to give a complex explanation of where all of the fitness teams adopting a scientific approach have failed in recent years. The approach of TP and Mark Hughes resulted in strong finishes and weak ones in respect of results. Results are not all down to fitness but the overriding perception is that things have been far too comfortable. It was interesting to hear Clive Clarke express a similar view. I recall Nathan Jones expressing an ethos (at the end of 18/19) that the next season we could look forward to high levels of fitness (I think he chose words to the effect of “boxing kangaroos”). We never got to find out, but it’s the only time I recall a recent manager expressing an ethos or commitment to fitness. I thought the explanation I posted was pretty complex. It's certainly as complex as I can manage I'm not a scientist. I understand the concept in a pretty loose way that it's impossible to keep elite athletes at their peak for the length of an entire season. I accept that concept I've never tested it. The theory sounds credible ie not starting at peak but working upto a plateau then coming down the other side ensuring you're never actually on your arse. I'm not sure the comfortable that Clive Clarke was on about was alluding to that at all. I think he was on about all this Oh morale and team spirt is so good and everybody loves one another all the nicey nicey harmony bollocks when theres no edge no anger when you're losing, players should be getting into each other demanding more of each other and themselves. It's not something I've witnessed if you'd just walked into the game you'd have a job to know they were losing without looking at the scoreboard and even after the final whistle they don't look that arsed that the've lost again at home. I will have to refresh on what Clive Clark stated but I’m sure he referred to pre season fitness regimes. I do remember Mark Hughes making specific reference to building to strong second halves of the season as part of their scientific planning. There was certainly demonstrative proof of that working in the first part of his time here. Then everything seemed to get too comfortable (and that hasn’t changed in my perception since). The signing of Berahino perhaps gave an insight into a more laid back approach from MH. For a number of reasons we shouldn’t have touched him with a barge pole. From his debut appearance the warning signs were there. He looked as though running was a chore. There were no excuses for him not to stay in top shape whilst not playing for WBA, but he obviously didn’t bother to do so. Yet, we were quite happy to sign him in a condition that reflected his attitude. Someone recorded that 23 min debut, as a sub against Everton: The highlight was warming up and running onto the pitch… 🙂 |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 3, 2022 12:13:31 GMT
I thought the explanation I posted was pretty complex. It's certainly as complex as I can manage I'm not a scientist. I understand the concept in a pretty loose way that it's impossible to keep elite athletes at their peak for the length of an entire season. I accept that concept I've never tested it. The theory sounds credible ie not starting at peak but working upto a plateau then coming down the other side ensuring you're never actually on your arse. I'm not sure the comfortable that Clive Clarke was on about was alluding to that at all. I think he was on about all this Oh morale and team spirt is so good and everybody loves one another all the nicey nicey harmony bollocks when theres no edge no anger when you're losing, players should be getting into each other demanding more of each other and themselves. It's not something I've witnessed if you'd just walked into the game you'd have a job to know they were losing without looking at the scoreboard and even after the final whistle they don't look that arsed that the've lost again at home. I will have to refresh on what Clive Clark stated but I’m sure he referred to pre season fitness regimes. I do remember Mark Hughes making specific reference to building to strong second halves of the season as part of their scientific planning. There was certainly demonstrative proof of that working in the first part of his time here. Then everything seemed to get too comfortable (and that hasn’t changed in my perception since). The signing of Berahino perhaps gave an insight into a more laid back approach from MH. For a number of reasons we shouldn’t have touched him with a barge pole. From his debut appearance the warning signs were there. He looked as though running was a chore. There were no excuses for him not to stay in top shape whilst not playing for WBA, but he obviously didn’t bother to do so. Yet, we were quite happy to sign him in a condition that reflected his attitude. Someone recorded that 23 min debut, as a sub against Everton: The highlight was warming up and running onto the pitch… 🙂 I suppose we can all read into it what fits our opinion. I think we've got far too comfortable with losing or even not winning games at home and as I said when we're losing playing like we're not and I just hope Neil sorts it out as one of his top priorities. I want to see them bustin a gut to win or not lose and when they fail I want to see it hurts their pride. These players just take losing far too well. |
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Post by bridgnorthstokie on Sept 3, 2022 14:32:41 GMT
What even happened to our throw ins under MON. When he first joined I remember him identyfing throw ins as something to work on as we weren't retaining possession enough from them. Seems to have went to shit this year though :/ Stoke City have had a long running issue with throw ins. Most teams a throw in is a chance to work up the pitch or retain possession. With is it is a 50/50 lottery as to whether we give it away or not. The lack of movement or clue what to do has been a major annoyance to me for years. You could add free kicks and corners to these free hits were just not looking dangerous on. Thought delap senior was brought in to oversee set plays...not seeing much fruit from his labour to be honest. |
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Post by abudhabistokie82 on Sept 3, 2022 15:19:56 GMT
To be fair when you look at a periodisation plan for the year the aim should be to be at peak or near peak fitness for the start of competition so in football for the start of the season. You then plan in fitness as a maintenance more than a focus as you have games so need to taper that particular aspect.
I would also think they would plan in the international breaks and any other breaks they may have to allow some active recovery so you can maintain relatively high levels of fitness throughout the whole season.
Injuries through contact etc in games are unavoidable but with correct conditioning and testing you should be able to minimise other injuries with development of correct muscle balance and power output being controlled. Technique may also be a factor if the players have poor biomechanics but again this could be identified and worked on.
It seems very strange that we accumulate so many injuries outside of game related contact and I have no idea why it has been so bad these past few years.
We can only hope the regime under AN is aligned with good sports science to improve this aspect for the lads. 🤞
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Post by dirtclod on Sept 3, 2022 17:36:31 GMT
Something's has been amiss for 6 seasons.
The least the coaching staff can do is ensure that players are as fit as they can be. Then they can move on to "fancy" stuff like how to do a throw-in lol.
You can't take on a grind like the Championship if you don't start out at least some reasonable fitness level.
Our preseason sucked, looked like walking football and it was shocking to me that the level of intensity was more befitting of a cribbage match.
I think our preseasons of "creeping round Ireland" might come to an end after this year. We need to "turn it up."
I have confidence that Alex will sort this even if it means moving certain players on next year who don't want to train hard enough.
Also think he's going to pay more attention to sports science than any of the previous managers.
I don't think there's many who aren't willing to train hard, but the regimen obviously hasn't been up to speed for those who are.
Also think that good organization on the pitch during matches with square pegs in square holes and everyone knowing where they should be has a lot to do with preventing injuries from "panic tackling" etc. (Trying to recover from mistakes or gaps in coverage) that's when you're going to push it to the extreme and end up getting hurt.
You guys who have played know how much of a change it is by simply switching positions on the pitch (square pegs and all...)- you can easily get hurt during that "transition."
A lot of opinion in this post I'll admit, but I can't really see where our team has been brought up to "peak" fitness at any point in these seasons. (As compared to the opposition who often run through brick walls the whole 90)
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Post by Pugsley on Sept 3, 2022 17:44:30 GMT
"Sometimes it’s difficult because you haven’t got any time really to put foundations in. Pre-season is the key time because you can embed your principles in, you get the lads working and understanding and you can recruit for the shape you’re going to play and how you’re going to play. You have the best players utilised to do those roles and then you can really set yourself up for the season." Thank the Lord we have someone who views pre season as a vital part of determining the strategy and not just getting fit after a holiday. Our pre season looked a shambles to me and that's when alarm bells rang in my head. Sounds like a manager getting his excuses in early to me. Please coach the team Alex and win football matches... you'll be surprised how fit footballers can be when winning games of football. |
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Post by Gods on Sept 3, 2022 17:52:23 GMT
I've listened to 2 or 3 Alex Neil interviews now and here is what I have taken from them.
That he believes we should be pressing and working much harder than we have been for the full 90 minutes. He believes the will is there from the players to do that but the side he currently has at his disposal is not able to that because they simply don't have the hard miles in their legs.
If he can build a team which is willing to die for the cause then we have half a chance.
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