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Post by davethebass on Sept 3, 2022 18:14:44 GMT
I mean there clearly is. We haven’t had a team that look fit for years. That is clearly wrong. Two seasons of loads of injuries in a row and the third starting the same isn’t a coincidence. If they start at peaek they'll plateau for a period then begin to fall away and be on their arse by the end of the season(Pulis). If you come in slightly undercooked build to peak then plateau then start to fall away again(Hughes) the concept is that they're never on their arse. I doubt the injuries will be much different but the likelihood is that they'll occur at different stages of the season ie on the upward curve, the downward curve and the most likely when they're on their arse. Reading this thread so far I've been fully onboard with the plain and simple, we're not fit enough we've been too soft. But you make a really good point here and got me thinking
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Post by loosestools on Sept 3, 2022 18:18:52 GMT
I've listened to 2 or 3 Alex Neil interviews now and here is what I have taken from them. That he believes we should be pressing and working much harder than we have been for the full 90 minutes. He believes the will is there from the players to do that but the side he currently has at his disposal is not able to because they simply don't have the hard miles in their legs. If he can build a team which is willing to die for the cause then we have half a chance. There might be the will but is there the skill? Individually yes in the majority, its piecing the jigsaw together that is the problem.
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Post by canadianmoose on Sept 3, 2022 18:41:57 GMT
"Sometimes it’s difficult because you haven’t got any time really to put foundations in. Pre-season is the key time because you can embed your principles in, you get the lads working and understanding and you can recruit for the shape you’re going to play and how you’re going to play. You have the best players utilised to do those roles and then you can really set yourself up for the season." Thank the Lord we have someone who views pre season as a vital part of determining the strategy and not just getting fit after a holiday. Our pre season looked a shambles to me and that's when alarm bells rang in my head. Sounds like a manager getting his excuses in early to me. Please coach the team Alex and win football matches... you'll be surprised how fit footballers can be when winning games of football. I don’t think he’s getting excuses in. He’s simply being coy on how he’s communicating to the outside world that our training regime has been a load of old bollox. It doesn’t even take a football genius to see it. Last 3 seasons (and beyond really) the players have looked like they move about at half the speed of other teams and then are all blowing out of their arses at 70 mins. It’s been piss poor and anyone could see it. Neil is just stating the facts, albeit in a nice way. You want to win football matches? Then you need to earn the right to win them. You do that by at least competing with the other team on the pitch in technique, tactics and being physically fit to do so.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 3, 2022 18:45:02 GMT
We haven’t looked like a very fit team for a long time.
And you would have to think that the injury frequency could be linked.
Hopefully we improve in both areas.
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Post by SuperRickyFuller on Sept 3, 2022 18:49:44 GMT
"Sometimes it’s difficult because you haven’t got any time really to put foundations in. Pre-season is the key time because you can embed your principles in, you get the lads working and understanding and you can recruit for the shape you’re going to play and how you’re going to play. You have the best players utilised to do those roles and then you can really set yourself up for the season." Thank the Lord we have someone who views pre season as a vital part of determining the strategy and not just getting fit after a holiday. Our pre season looked a shambles to me and that's when alarm bells rang in my head. Sounds like a manager getting his excuses in early to me. Please coach the team Alex and win football matches... you'll be surprised how fit footballers can be when winning games of football. Think that's a bit harsh Pugs. There's been far too many games where we've wondered why we're looking second best to teams in terms of strength and pace and why we were rarely scoring late on too (fitness). This season alone, we were outfought and outrun by Morecombe which isn't AN's fault, that's on MON. I don't think he's one to make excuses either, he's saying it how he sees it.
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Post by J-Roar on Sept 3, 2022 18:49:54 GMT
The conditioning under MoN was frightening but then it hasn’t been too different under the blokes before him too. We just haven’t looked a fit energised team since the first few Hughes sides. And with poor conditioning you’ll get injuries. There is no wrong and right. It's just different approaches. It's impossible to keep a player at their peak for 9 months or however long a season lasts. We've pulled the trick off of looking unfit for all 9 months. Takes some doing.
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Post by Olgrligm on Sept 3, 2022 19:48:20 GMT
I thought the explanation I posted was pretty complex. It's certainly as complex as I can manage I'm not a scientist. I understand the concept in a pretty loose way that it's impossible to keep elite athletes at their peak for the length of an entire season. I accept that concept I've never tested it. The theory sounds credible ie not starting at peak but working upto a plateau then coming down the other side ensuring you're never actually on your arse. I'm not sure the comfortable that Clive Clarke was on about was alluding to that at all. I think he was on about all this Oh morale and team spirt is so good and everybody loves one another all the nicey nicey harmony bollocks when theres no edge no anger when you're losing, players should be getting into each other demanding more of each other and themselves. It's not something I've witnessed if you'd just walked into the game you'd have a job to know they were losing without looking at the scoreboard and even after the final whistle they don't look that arsed that the've lost again at home. I will have to refresh on what Clive Clark stated but I’m sure he referred to pre season fitness regimes. I do remember Mark Hughes making specific reference to building to strong second halves of the season as part of their scientific planning. There was certainly demonstrative proof of that working in the first part of his time here. Then everything seemed to get too comfortable (and that hasn’t changed in my perception since). The signing of Berahino perhaps gave an insight into a more laid back approach from MH. For a number of reasons we shouldn’t have touched him with a barge pole. From his debut appearance the warning signs were there. He looked as though running was a chore. There were no excuses for him not to stay in top shape whilst not playing for WBA, but he obviously didn’t bother to do so. Yet, we were quite happy to sign him in a condition that reflected his attitude. Someone recorded that 23 min debut, as a sub against Everton: The highlight was warming up and running onto the pitch… 🙂 I think you will find this interview with Hughes' fitness guru quite interesting. trainingground.guru/articles/damian-roden-struggles-at-stoke-and-settled-in-seattleRoden was the guy who had the method that meant our players reached peak fitness in the second half of the season, leading to us having storming ends to the season for the first few years of Hughes. He talks a bit about how the approach changed so that players were protected from injury instead, which led to a drop in fitness levels.
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Post by onefatcopper on Sept 3, 2022 20:22:41 GMT
The players fitness has been in question since TP left the club, and believe me I was no fan of his footballing ideals but you knew that his players would run to the very last second of a game. I think MH brought with him a more European technical approach to his training regime and we seemed to enter and rely on the sports science world for the individuals conditioning and fitness. I know we all think that our club, be it Liverpool, United, Chelsea or even Leyton Orient has the worst injury crisis, but in Stokes case I really believe that we must be near the top of the League, how many times since Bojan have we lost a player to a serious injury only for the player to fight back to full recovery but never be the same player again (Cambell) ? How many players do we loose to the same niggling injures that seem to last for a eternity (Powell) ? Something is very wrong with the Stoke medical and training teams, is there a common denominator, I don’t know, but something is not right, be it training methods, recovery after training, recouping correctly after surgery, or even as daft as it seems the length and type of grass that they play on, something is not right and it’s costing us dearly, not only in important personnel but also financially in wages and at a genuine tilt at promotion.
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Post by moon on Sept 4, 2022 5:06:53 GMT
how many times since Bojan have we lost a player to a serious injury only for the player to fight back to full recovery but never be the same player again (Cambell) ? How many players do we loose to the same niggling injures that seem to last for a eternity (Powell) ? Both Oatcake myths for me. Way too early to say that for Campbell, he has looked very sharp in recent weeks and seems to have that pace back, it was always going to take time to recover from such a serious injury. As for Powell, 86 appearances in his three years here is pretty good - it was only last season he missed any significant time when he played 18 games, part of that with a broken leg (cracked fibula).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2022 6:42:02 GMT
It's the oldest trick in the book. Walk into a club and slate the fitness or in this case, slightly dance around it.
It is and isn't excuses but we've also had excuses about not having much time with the players, yet in the next breath he's saying he's not asking them to do what they haven't done before. Again, nothing any other manager doesn't do. They're all the bloody same.
All that aside, I actually think there are two issues with the squad surrounding fitness. I think the players, or some of them are nowhere near their peak fitness and sharpness but equally I think we have too many players, and have signed too many players in the past that are not naturally athletic players and/or too old, which compounds the issue.
Going forwards I can actually see more injuries happening in the short term as the intensity increases and he's asking players to play at an unnatural intensity.
It all boils back down to empowering your managers too much and asking them to do too much. Great if you have a top dollar general manager that is hot on everything, not so great if you have a manager with holes in his game.
Thankfully going forwards, it seems like we've dropped onto a good one here who seems quite hot on a lot of things.
It would help if we weren't set up like this though to reduce that risk, but we've gone over that too many times now and it's clear it isn't changing anytime soon.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 4, 2022 7:30:47 GMT
It's the oldest trick in the book. Walk into a club and slate the fitness or in this case, slightly dance around it. It is and isn't excuses but we've also had excuses about not having much time with the players, yet in the next breath he's saying he's not asking them to do what they haven't done before. Again, nothing any other manager doesn't do. They're all the bloody same. All that aside, I actually think there are two issues with the squad surrounding fitness. I think the players, or some of them are nowhere near their peak fitness and sharpness but equally I think we have too many players, and have signed too many players in the past that are not naturally athletic players and/or too old, which compounds the issue. Going forwards I can actually see more injuries happening in the short term as the intensity increases and he's asking players to play at an unnatural intensity. It all boils back down to empowering your managers too much and asking them to do too much. Great if you have a top dollar general manager that is hot on everything, not so great if you have a manager with holes in his game. Thankfully going forwards, it seems like we've dropped onto a good one here who seems quite hot on a lot of things. It would help if we weren't set up like this though to reduce that risk, but we've gone over that too many times now and it's clear it isn't changing anytime soon. I agree, people are getting a lit bit carried away with Neil's first couple of interviews, and his first training session (I do similar drills at u-14/u-15 level it's not rocket science). It's a bit like when you get a builder in to do some work, or go for a haircut and they always grimace and say "Who did this last time?"
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Post by J-Roar on Sept 4, 2022 8:02:13 GMT
It's the oldest trick in the book. Walk into a club and slate the fitness or in this case, slightly dance around it. It is and isn't excuses but we've also had excuses about not having much time with the players, yet in the next breath he's saying he's not asking them to do what they haven't done before. Again, nothing any other manager doesn't do. They're all the bloody same. All that aside, I actually think there are two issues with the squad surrounding fitness. I think the players, or some of them are nowhere near their peak fitness and sharpness but equally I think we have too many players, and have signed too many players in the past that are not naturally athletic players and/or too old, which compounds the issue. Going forwards I can actually see more injuries happening in the short term as the intensity increases and he's asking players to play at an unnatural intensity. It all boils back down to empowering your managers too much and asking them to do too much. Great if you have a top dollar general manager that is hot on everything, not so great if you have a manager with holes in his game. Thankfully going forwards, it seems like we've dropped onto a good one here who seems quite hot on a lot of things. It would help if we weren't set up like this though to reduce that risk, but we've gone over that too many times now and it's clear it isn't changing anytime soon. I agree, people are getting a lit bit carried away with Neil's first couple of interviews, and his first training session (I do similar drills at u-14/u-15 level it's not rocket science). It's a bit like when you get a builder in to do some work, or go for a haircut and they always grimace and say "Who did this last time?" I once had to tell a barber that he'd cut it last time. We didn't talk much after that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2022 8:07:33 GMT
I agree, people are getting a lit bit carried away with Neil's first couple of interviews, and his first training session (I do similar drills at u-14/u-15 level it's not rocket science). It's a bit like when you get a builder in to do some work, or go for a haircut and they always grimace and say "Who did this last time?" I once had to tell a barber that he'd cut it last time. We didn't talk much after that. 🤣
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Post by Marc01 on Sept 4, 2022 8:11:52 GMT
I will have to refresh on what Clive Clark stated but I’m sure he referred to pre season fitness regimes. I do remember Mark Hughes making specific reference to building to strong second halves of the season as part of their scientific planning. There was certainly demonstrative proof of that working in the first part of his time here. Then everything seemed to get too comfortable (and that hasn’t changed in my perception since). The signing of Berahino perhaps gave an insight into a more laid back approach from MH. For a number of reasons we shouldn’t have touched him with a barge pole. From his debut appearance the warning signs were there. He looked as though running was a chore. There were no excuses for him not to stay in top shape whilst not playing for WBA, but he obviously didn’t bother to do so. Yet, we were quite happy to sign him in a condition that reflected his attitude. Someone recorded that 23 min debut, as a sub against Everton: The highlight was warming up and running onto the pitch… 🙂 I think you will find this interview with Hughes' fitness guru quite interesting. trainingground.guru/articles/damian-roden-struggles-at-stoke-and-settled-in-seattleRoden was the guy who had the method that meant our players reached peak fitness in the second half of the season, leading to us having storming ends to the season for the first few years of Hughes. He talks a bit about how the approach changed so that players were protected from injury instead, which led to a drop in fitness levels. Yes, thanks for that, very interesting. I understand that it’s not the first example of a Stoke manager having success and then changing direction with damaging consequences. "We had high availability for the first couple of seasons at Stoke, but then there was this prevailing thought that we needed to protect the players, so volume and intensity decreased.” "Because we weren’t training hard enough, players started to get injured. If you don’t have your best players available then results suffer.” Roden, who also worked with Hughes at Blackburn Rovers, Manchester City and QPR, adds: “Mark took Blackburn to Europe, we were on the right track at Manchester City and were headed in the right direction at Stoke,” he says. “What happened there is sad.” Another interview: www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-damian-roden-hughes-6034617.amp
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Post by knype on Sept 4, 2022 8:15:17 GMT
Anyone can see we are not fit enough, maybe whoever said about training at International level vs club football has it spot on, the intensity surely is different?
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Post by chuckrocky on Sept 4, 2022 8:16:55 GMT
Not surprised to see O’Neil’s disciples already getting stuck into the new manager for subtlety pointing out their messiahs quite glaring failings.
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Post by knype on Sept 4, 2022 8:18:29 GMT
Not surprised to see O’Neil’s disciples already getting stuck into the new manager for subtlety pointing out their messiahs quite glaring failings. Me neither
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 4, 2022 8:23:53 GMT
Not surprised to see O’Neil’s disciples already getting stuck into the new manager for subtlety pointing out their messiahs quite glaring failings. How did you feel after “the Messiah’s” first game at Barnsley after the shit show we’d been enduring? I’m simply pointing out that people are getting carried away over a fairly basic couple of training drills and some comments about fitness that many new managers comment on. No more no less…….
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2022 8:24:08 GMT
Anyone can see we are not fit enough, maybe whoever said about training at International level vs club football has it spot on, the intensity surely is different? It was heavily discussed when MON appointed his ex NI and ex Sunderland fitness guru on here but was swiftly dismissed as a non issue.
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Post by knype on Sept 4, 2022 8:26:09 GMT
Anyone can see we are not fit enough, maybe whoever said about training at International level vs club football has it spot on, the intensity surely is different? It was heavily discussed when MON appointed his ex NI and ex Sunderland fitness guru on here but was swiftly dismissed as a non issue. It has to be different though surely? International games training will be completely different to the Championship training, we looks low on energy after pressing hard which comes from a intense pressure season
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Post by chuckrocky on Sept 4, 2022 8:29:48 GMT
Not surprised to see O’Neil’s disciples already getting stuck into the new manager for subtlety pointing out their messiahs quite glaring failings. How did you feel after “the Messiah’s” first game at Barnsley after the shit show we’d been enduring? I’m simply pointing out that people are getting carried away over a fairly basic couple of training drills and some comments about fitness that many new managers comment on. No more no less……. His first six months in charge when he played with a back four was a breath of fresh air and I honestly thought we’d found a good en. I haven’t been on the board enough recently to see people getting carried away but I would imagine the vast majority of supporters will pay little attention to what comes out of the club on social media and instead base their opinions on what they see on the pitch over the coming months.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2022 8:37:39 GMT
It was heavily discussed when MON appointed his ex NI and ex Sunderland fitness guru on here but was swiftly dismissed as a non issue. It has to be different though surely? International games training will be completely different to the Championship training, we looks low on energy after pressing hard which comes from a intense pressure season Absolutely and I can remember being shut down on here for trying to point it out at the time. I think I went down the road of 'in international football the fitness is just a ticking over for a few weeks before being sent back to their clubs for more regular, planned and intense training the rest of the time". That's just the last manager though. There has been an issue in my eyes spanning quite a few managers now. I think we've looked sluggish most seasons from mid Mark Hughes's term until Nathan Jones' first full season where we looked very sharp (but shite...). Total outlier. Alex Neil is just doing what all manager's do though when they go into a new job, and that is to chuck a few points down on the table. It's part excuse but also part metric to say what he's improved over the coming months. No different to any other manager.
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Post by knype on Sept 4, 2022 8:38:57 GMT
Hughes was also an international manager too
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 4, 2022 8:41:42 GMT
How did you feel after “the Messiah’s” first game at Barnsley after the shit show we’d been enduring? I’m simply pointing out that people are getting carried away over a fairly basic couple of training drills and some comments about fitness that many new managers comment on. No more no less……. His first six months in charge when he played with a back four was a breath of fresh air and I honestly thought we’d found a good en. I haven’t been on the board enough recently to see people getting carried away but I would imagine the vast majority of supporters will pay little attention to what comes out of the club on social media and instead base their opinions on what they see on the pitch over the coming months. I think Neil has all the right attributes to move us forward and I hope he’s able to do that. Here’s hoping……
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Post by chuckrocky on Sept 4, 2022 8:42:27 GMT
His first six months in charge when he played with a back four was a breath of fresh air and I honestly thought we’d found a good en. I haven’t been on the board enough recently to see people getting carried away but I would imagine the vast majority of supporters will pay little attention to what comes out of the club on social media and instead base their opinions on what they see on the pitch over the coming months. I think Neil has all the right attributes to move us forward and I hope he’s able to do that. Here’s hoping…… Me too, it’s the hope that kills you.
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