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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 20, 2022 14:07:08 GMT
You laugh but Finland is a former member of the Russian Empire Part joke, part serious. The debate on Finland, and Sweden, joining NATO seems to be starting again. I’m sure the relatives of the 26,000 Fins killed by the Soviets in the Winter War would piss their pants laughing at your funny joke.......
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 20, 2022 14:08:02 GMT
I don't think they read the Oatcake......... Oh sorry. Arse licking Putin is completely fine then. Jolly good. Sharing a mildly amusing Family Guy clip is "arse licking Putin" now apparently. I thought you were a grown man for fucks sake?
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 20, 2022 14:15:28 GMT
Oh sorry. Arse licking Putin is completely fine then. Jolly good. Sharing a mildly amusing Family Guy clip is "arse licking Putin" now apparently. I thought you were a grown man for fucks sake? I thought you were a Putin apologist. One of us is right.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 20, 2022 14:35:17 GMT
Sharing a mildly amusing Family Guy clip is "arse licking Putin" now apparently. I thought you were a grown man for fucks sake? I thought you were a Putin apologist. One of us is right. Trying to understand the actions of a person you fundamentally disagree with isn't being an apologist for them, in the same way that trying to understand what makes young people knife each other in the stomach doesn't make you an apologist for knife crime. Apologies for the delayed response by the way I had to go out and get another "Countdown to Invasion" calendar as the last one has ran out of dates. I'm sure Biden is spot on when he says "tomorrow" this time though.......
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 20, 2022 16:23:11 GMT
Part joke, part serious. The debate on Finland, and Sweden, joining NATO seems to be starting again. I’m sure the relatives of the 26,000 Fins killed by the Soviets in the Winter War would piss their pants laughing at your funny joke....... I imagine that they will be rather more sanguine considering some 80+ years have passed since Russia attacked Finland whereas the latest deaths in the Ukraine at the hands of the Russian state occurred yesterday.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Feb 20, 2022 16:37:03 GMT
I thought you were a Putin apologist. One of us is right. Trying to understand the actions of a person you fundamentally disagree with isn't being an apologist for them, in the same way that trying to understand what makes young people knife each other in the stomach doesn't make you an apologist for knife crime. Apologies for the delayed response by the way I had to go out and get another "Countdown to Invasion" calendar as the last one has ran out of dates. I'm sure Biden is spot on when he says "tomorrow" this time though....... It’s ridiculous, the West seen hell bent on provoking him into it. I thought last Wednesday was the date. Don’t think I saw one positive media piece welcoming even the potential of a Russian withdrawal. Biden & Boris are useless
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 20, 2022 17:35:37 GMT
Trying to understand the actions of a person you fundamentally disagree with isn't being an apologist for them, in the same way that trying to understand what makes young people knife each other in the stomach doesn't make you an apologist for knife crime. Apologies for the delayed response by the way I had to go out and get another "Countdown to Invasion" calendar as the last one has ran out of dates. I'm sure Biden is spot on when he says "tomorrow" this time though....... It’s ridiculous, the West seen hell bent on provoking him into it. I thought last Wednesday was the date. Don’t think I saw one positive media piece welcoming even the potential of a Russian withdrawal. Biden & Boris are useless Our media don’t do the nuance of conflict. The troops in Ukraine wearing gear and driving tanks with Nazi symbols all over them barely gets a mention either. The innocent Ukrainian people waiting in limbo should be the ones at the forefront of every diplomat and politicians mind, hopefully everyone can put their egos to one side and come up with a pragmatic solution…….
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Feb 20, 2022 17:36:50 GMT
It’s ridiculous, the West seen hell bent on provoking him into it. I thought last Wednesday was the date. Don’t think I saw one positive media piece welcoming even the potential of a Russian withdrawal. Biden & Boris are useless Our media don’t do the nuance of conflict. The troops in Ukraine wearing gear and driving tanks with Nazi symbols all over them barely gets a mention either. The innocent Ukrainian people waiting in limbo should be the ones at the forefront of every diplomat and politicians mind, hopefully everyone can put their egos to one side and come up with a pragmatic solution……. Big Nige would sort this shit show out in an instant😉
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 20, 2022 18:21:24 GMT
Looks like Macron’s sorted it all out.
Nice one Manny.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 20, 2022 18:34:22 GMT
It’s ridiculous, the West seen hell bent on provoking him into it. I thought last Wednesday was the date. Don’t think I saw one positive media piece welcoming even the potential of a Russian withdrawal. Biden & Boris are useless Our media don’t do the nuance of conflict. The troops in Ukraine wearing gear and driving tanks with Nazi symbols all over them barely gets a mention either. The innocent Ukrainian people waiting in limbo should be the ones at the forefront of every diplomat and politicians mind, hopefully everyone can put their egos to one side and come up with a pragmatic solution……. You got a link for the Nazi stuff. Something other than the stories doing the rounds in 2014? Your desire to see nuance is admirable. Your ability to gauge it, let’s say, less so. But I may be misjudging you. Let’s be generous and say Putin is 98% responsible, the Wicked West can carry the can for the 2% balance. How would you apportion blame from what you’ve seen and read?
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 20, 2022 18:36:53 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 20, 2022 18:49:28 GMT
From the Guardian a couple of weeks ago… From eastern Europe we watch Ukraine in fear. Its fate could decide the continent’s futureI doubt the fears of many of the former soviet satellites have dissipated in recent days. Remember how these countries eagerly threw off the mantle of Russian control. It’s worth remembering why. It’s because they didn’t like it and didn’t want it. And they still don’t. But, now the big bear has rediscovered its bollocks it fancies bring back into the fold the countries that turned their backs, regardless of what those countries feel.
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Post by Northy on Feb 20, 2022 20:26:46 GMT
Best get on the phone tomorrow
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 20, 2022 20:43:14 GMT
Our media don’t do the nuance of conflict. The troops in Ukraine wearing gear and driving tanks with Nazi symbols all over them barely gets a mention either. The innocent Ukrainian people waiting in limbo should be the ones at the forefront of every diplomat and politicians mind, hopefully everyone can put their egos to one side and come up with a pragmatic solution……. You got a link for the Nazi stuff. Something other than the stories doing the rounds in 2014? Your desire to see nuance is admirable. Your ability to gauge it, let’s say, less so. But I may be misjudging you. Let’s be generous and say Putin is 98% responsible, the Wicked West can carry the can for the 2% balance. How would you apportion blame from what you’ve seen and read? How would I apportion blame? Blame for what the current situation, the situation over the last 8 years? 14 years? 30 years. Of course Putin is responsible for stationing 100 odd thousand troops on the Ukrainian border in an act of aggression, it would be deluded to say otherwise . But as I’ve said previously on this thread, what would America do if the roles were reversed and a country they saw to be of strategic importance decided to join a military alliance with Russia? Would they sit back and just accept it because the country in question was a sovereign independent nation? Like fuck they would. And why didn’t the EU against the advice of France and Germany sit down with Russia in 2014 to come up with a pragmatic and relatively peaceful solution? So I’m not going to put an arbitrary percentage figure on who is to blame, but mistakes have been made on both sides to lead us up to this point in my opinion…….
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 20, 2022 22:08:41 GMT
You got a link for the Nazi stuff. Something other than the stories doing the rounds in 2014? Your desire to see nuance is admirable. Your ability to gauge it, let’s say, less so. But I may be misjudging you. Let’s be generous and say Putin is 98% responsible, the Wicked West can carry the can for the 2% balance. How would you apportion blame from what you’ve seen and read? How would I apportion blame? Blame for what the current situation, the situation over the last 8 years? 14 years? 30 years. Of course Putin is responsible for stationing 100 odd thousand troops on the Ukrainian border in an act of aggression, it would be deluded to say otherwise . But as I’ve said previously on this thread, what would America do if the roles were reversed and a country they saw to be of strategic importance decided to join a military alliance with Russia? Would they sit back and just accept it because the country in question was a sovereign independent nation? Like fuck they would. And why didn’t the EU against the advice of France and Germany sit down with Russia in 2014 to come up with a pragmatic and relatively peaceful solution? So I’m not going to put an arbitrary percentage figure on who is to blame, but mistakes have been made on both sides to lead us up to this point in my opinion……. That’s fine. Your position is clear. You see equivalence. Quite pathetic.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 20, 2022 22:23:39 GMT
How would I apportion blame? Blame for what the current situation, the situation over the last 8 years? 14 years? 30 years. Of course Putin is responsible for stationing 100 odd thousand troops on the Ukrainian border in an act of aggression, it would be deluded to say otherwise . But as I’ve said previously on this thread, what would America do if the roles were reversed and a country they saw to be of strategic importance decided to join a military alliance with Russia? Would they sit back and just accept it because the country in question was a sovereign independent nation? Like fuck they would. And why didn’t the EU against the advice of France and Germany sit down with Russia in 2014 to come up with a pragmatic and relatively peaceful solution? So I’m not going to put an arbitrary percentage figure on who is to blame, but mistakes have been made on both sides to lead us up to this point in my opinion……. That’s fine. Your position is clear. You see equivalence. Quite pathetic. Simply commenting that "both sides have made mistakes" does not make equivalence. If you think Russia are 100% to blame for the situation we find ourselves in knock yourself out. What you think is "pathetic" is of absolutely no consequence to me........
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Post by foster on Feb 21, 2022 9:22:11 GMT
That’s fine. Your position is clear. You see equivalence. Quite pathetic. Simply commenting that "both sides have made mistakes" does not make equivalence. If you think Russia are 100% to blame for the situation we find ourselves in knock yourself out. What you think is "pathetic" is of absolutely no consequence to me........ Change your username to russianstokie mate.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 9:36:01 GMT
Simply commenting that "both sides have made mistakes" does not make equivalence. If you think Russia are 100% to blame for the situation we find ourselves in knock yourself out. What you think is "pathetic" is of absolutely no consequence to me........ Change your username to russianstokie mate. I was thinking of changing it to wokeystokie. But yeah yours has a nice ring to it...........
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Post by noustie on Feb 21, 2022 9:42:54 GMT
Change your username to russianstokie mate. I was thinking of changing it to wokeystokie. But yeah yours has a nice ring to it........... ProletariatPotter
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 9:46:47 GMT
I was thinking of changing it to wokeystokie. But yeah yours has a nice ring to it........... ProletariatPotter Like it, I better put my smoked salmon and avocado bagel down I'm just about to eat for breakfast then before I get accused of being a traitor to my class.........
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Post by noustie on Feb 21, 2022 9:59:31 GMT
This isn’t Star Wars with Putin being Darth Vader and Biden Yoda. Every war in history is through leaders claiming moral and ethical justification for their actions; none have done it on the basis of being the bad guy as it would bring their own power under threat from the local population as they always need their buy-in.
The issue here seems to be that Putin may very well be a wrong ‘un but the west seems to have a few of their own plus he’s arguably the most competent piece on the board of geo-political chess going on. In comparison Biden is struggling with incompetence and incontinence so every day is a struggle to avoid his bowel invading his underpants let alone Russia Ukraine and Johnson is like the kid in the playground shouting to be picked at football a couple of places before his actual position in the hierarchy.
The massive wild card too is China and it’s doubtful either side want that played which is apparent given Putin is playing poker with his cards on show yet arguably still winning. In his conference with Macron and in an interview on Japan state television he has stated quite clearly and categorically he is playing for a draw.
Surely understanding what he would consider a draw is the next stage in the process and wouldn’t be surprised if Ukraine got thrown under the bus to some extent in those negotiations by the good guys of the West.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 21, 2022 10:05:09 GMT
I was thinking of changing it to wokeystokie. But yeah yours has a nice ring to it........... ProletariatPotter PutinPotter.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 21, 2022 10:12:33 GMT
This isn’t Star Wars with Putin being Darth Vader and Biden Yoda. Every war in history is through leaders claiming moral and ethical justification for their actions; none have done it on the basis of being the bad guy as it would bring their own power under threat from the local population as they always need their buy-in. The issue here seems to be that Putin may very well be a wrong ‘un but the west seems to have a few of their own plus he’s arguably the most competent piece on the board of geo-political chess going on. In comparison Biden is struggling with incompetence and incontinence so every day is a struggle to avoid his bowel invading his underpants let alone Russia Ukraine and Johnson is like the kid in the playground shouting to be picked at football a couple of places before his actual position in the hierarchy. The massive wild card too is China and it’s doubtful either side want that played which is apparent given Putin is playing poker with his cards on show yet arguably still winning. In his conference with Macron and in an interview on Japan state television he has stated quite clearly and categorically he is playing for a draw. Surely understanding what he would consider a draw is the next stage in the process and wouldn’t be surprised if Ukraine got thrown under the bus to some extent in those negotiations by the good guys of the West. This exactly how I see this mess ending up. Russia recognises the two breakaway regions in the Donbas, Donetsk and Luhansk, which the west acknowledges meaning Ukraine loses a chunk of its territory. This results in a mass exodus of Ukrainian nationals paving the way for a referendum within a couple of years, as in the Crimea, that sees these regions join a Russian federation. Putin is satisfied. Satisfied in that he now has a modus operandi to undertake similar actions across more of the old soviet socialist republics. Which is why the Baltic nations and others are so worried. Ah well. So long as it keeps the peace. What harm can come from appeasing a bully.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Feb 21, 2022 10:21:31 GMT
The reports circulating around his proposed concentration camps, torturing and murder of journalists, anti corruption campaigners and minority communities (lgbt etc) is truly horrifying and sums up the sickening mind of Putin.
I look forward to hearing white, wealthy liberals in the UK continue to support his deranged, increasingly erratic and unhinged dictatorship.
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Post by noustie on Feb 21, 2022 10:48:10 GMT
This isn’t Star Wars with Putin being Darth Vader and Biden Yoda. Every war in history is through leaders claiming moral and ethical justification for their actions; none have done it on the basis of being the bad guy as it would bring their own power under threat from the local population as they always need their buy-in. The issue here seems to be that Putin may very well be a wrong ‘un but the west seems to have a few of their own plus he’s arguably the most competent piece on the board of geo-political chess going on. In comparison Biden is struggling with incompetence and incontinence so every day is a struggle to avoid his bowel invading his underpants let alone Russia Ukraine and Johnson is like the kid in the playground shouting to be picked at football a couple of places before his actual position in the hierarchy. The massive wild card too is China and it’s doubtful either side want that played which is apparent given Putin is playing poker with his cards on show yet arguably still winning. In his conference with Macron and in an interview on Japan state television he has stated quite clearly and categorically he is playing for a draw. Surely understanding what he would consider a draw is the next stage in the process and wouldn’t be surprised if Ukraine got thrown under the bus to some extent in those negotiations by the good guys of the West. This exactly how I see this mess ending up. Russia recognises the two breakaway regions in the Donbas, Donetsk and Luhansk, which the west acknowledges meaning Ukraine loses a chunk of its territory. This results in a mass exodus of Ukrainian nationals paving the way for a referendum within a couple of years, as in the Crimea, that sees these regions join a Russian federation. Putin is satisfied. Satisfied in that he now has a modus operandi to undertake similar actions across more of the old soviet socialist republics. Which is why the Baltic nations and others are so worried. Ah well. So long as it keeps the peace. What harm can come from appeasing a bully. Wouldn’t be surprised if during that phase Belarus were seen as low hanging fruit and next on the list to get the gang back together. It’s a familiar script definitely but still think China is a massive known unknown (they’re batshit mental but how far off the bat shit mental scale are they?) to both sides because Putin and the rest can fuck about playing chess whereas Xi could just decide to chuck the board off the table at any time and start playing Domino Rally instead. China and US seem to have been fighting each other via economics for years which is the elephant in the room on a lot of this because it would seem likely ‘when’ and not ‘if’ China become numero uno and how this transition actually manifests in world affairs then Russia themselves are a whole new ball game. More important than all this though – will Scotland get a bye vs Ukraine and walk into the final vs Wales or Austria?
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Post by noustie on Feb 21, 2022 11:00:23 GMT
The reports circulating around his proposed concentration camps, torturing and murder of journalists, anti corruption campaigners and minority communities (lgbt etc) is truly horrifying and sums up the sickening mind of Putin. I look forward to hearing white, wealthy liberals in the UK continue to support his deranged, increasingly erratic and unhinged dictatorship. Although when he speaks he has the gravitas a lot of western leaders lack and actually gives the impression of being a statesman I don’t doubt for a second his regime is repugnant. To be honest wouldn’t be surprised after his death it came out he batted for the other side and was massively overcompensating. Given my extended family I find the Chinese regime abhorrent as well. However, we’re not going get very far if we don’t understand their respective positions and see if we can engineer a fluffier compromise. If your neighbour has a mental rabid dog the last thing you do is kick it then complain about its reaction. The issue is likely diplomacy will be seen as a sign of weakness and last thing we need with the current crop of political leaders is a military cock measuring competition they don’t have the capacity to withdraw themselves from which is another familiar script. Dangerous times.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 12:18:46 GMT
I think those who believe Putin wants to physically unify those former Soviet countries back into a single state are way off the mark, it would be suicidal of Putin and he's not stupid, economically and militarily they just couldn't do it and even less so after the pandemic.
Would he swallow up those who still share the same "ideological values" or as someone called it "the low hanging fruit" such as Belarus, Eastern Ukraine and Northern Kazhakstan? Absolutely he would, but that ideology is not shared in Western Ukraine, Estonia, Uzbekistan and other parts of the region. What he wants is an alliance of these states both economically/militarily and to increase the power of both the Eurasian Economic Union and the Collective Security Treaty Organization so that they can increase ties with Asia and Africa particularly.
That's my take on it anyway, I wouldn't trust him but I still think long term there's no benefit to Putin putting thousands of troops on the ground in Ukraine and fighting a bloody war when they can increase their power base in other ways..............
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 21, 2022 12:29:30 GMT
Hopefully there will be some diplomatic solution worked out that avoids war.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the eastern part of Ukraine which appears to be full of Russian separatists become subject to a referendum about their future.
Putin would probably accept that for the time being as it allows him to present himself as acting on behalf of Russian interests in Ukraine without being the war-mongering despot the rest of the world would see him as. It also prevents punishing sanctions being applied.
The Baltic states are in NATO so are effectively untouchable now, unless Putin really wants to trigger a genuine WW3. That weird area around Kaliningrad might be a potential trigger point.
Ukraine missed the boat basically. If they were serious about looking west rather than east they had about 15 years from the fall of the Soviet empire to do so. Most of eastern Europe got it sorted quickly while Russia was trying to find its identity, but Ukraine was too slow and that's why we're where we are now.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Feb 21, 2022 12:33:12 GMT
I think those who believe Putin wants to physically unify those former Soviet countries back into a single state are way off the mark, it would be suicidal of Putin and he's not stupid, economically and militarily they just couldn't do it and even less so after the pandemic. Would he swallow up those who still share the same "ideological values" or as someone called it "the low hanging fruit" such as Belarus, Eastern Ukraine and Northern Kazhakstan? Absolutely he would, but that ideology is not shared in Western Ukraine, Estonia, Uzbekistan and other parts of the region. What he wants is an alliance of these states both economically/militarily and to increase the power of both the Eurasian Economic Union and the Collective Security Treaty Organization so that they can increase ties with Asia and Africa particularly. That's my take on it anyway, I wouldn't trust him but I still think long term there's no benefit to Putin putting thousands of troops on the ground in Ukraine and fighting a bloody war when they can increase their power base in other ways.............. Re Belarus would that look any different than the current setup? As it stands he could ask Lukashenko to jump and he'd ask 'how high?'. I agree with you that Putin will probably out fox the West and doesn't want to fight but why isn't it part of his dialogue to suggest a vote in the Donbas for independence? The current situation feels a little more aggressive than past stake outs. I can't recall that the annexation of Crimea being done with such military force and while there is definitely low hanging fruit it feels like he might be trying to reach a little higher. I find it difficult to see the case to line the northern part of Ukraine with troops unless of course they suddenly return home - I guess we will get to know the answer to this soon.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Feb 21, 2022 12:36:41 GMT
Hopefully there will be some diplomatic solution worked out that avoids war. I wouldn't be surprised to see the eastern part of Ukraine which appears to be full of Russian separatists become subject to a referendum about their future. Putin would probably accept that for the time being as it allows him to present himself as acting on behalf of Russian interests in Ukraine without being the war-mongering despot the rest of the world would see him as. It also prevents punishing sanctions being applied. The Baltic states are in NATO so are effectively untouchable now, unless Putin really wants to trigger a genuine WW3. That weird area around Kaliningrad might be a potential trigger point. Ukraine missed the boat basically. If they were serious about looking west rather than east they had about 15 years from the fall of the Soviet empire to do so. Most of eastern Europe got it sorted quickly while Russia was trying to find its identity, but Ukraine was too slow and that's why we're where we are now. Surely a ceasefire can be agreed between all parties for a couple of months? This would then mean that if the troops are just there for drills there will be no chance of things escalating.
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