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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 1, 2024 11:58:32 GMT
I think this is an interesting extract from an interview with the Estonian Prime Minister:  It's strikes me as being pretty realistic to the current situation but she concedes that joining NATO is the aim even with a loss to some Ukrainian territory................. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 1, 2024 18:20:34 GMT
Anniversary of the day Ukraine handed over their nukes, strategic bombers and cruise missiles to Russia in exchange for peace and Russia promised to respect their borders.
Supposedly markings on wreckage showed that several of the missiles Ukraine handed over were shot back into Ukraine.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 1, 2024 22:31:50 GMT
The russian army's latest vehicles.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 1, 2024 22:33:58 GMT
Russia's blitz continued last night. They hit more power stations and a dam.
Next winter they're hoping to freeze out and kill so many Ukrainians that they surrender.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 2, 2024 0:03:30 GMT
"‘We took out so many of them:’ Ukraine stabilizes Kharkiv front after brutal Russian offensive After making quick early gains across Ukraine’s northern border, Russia’s May offensive on Kharkiv Oblast has run out of steam." Ukrainian media sounding pretty bullish about Kharkiv. Joe Biden and other western leaders are allowing some strikes into Russia now. Russian sources claim that Ukraine blasted the crap out of a big convoy inside Russia, and others are saying ukraine has launched a big counterattack in Kharkiv. I guess we'll see. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 0:21:17 GMT
Thoughts?
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 2, 2024 0:24:48 GMT
I think imperialist propagandists shilling for a murderous dictatorship, spreading lies and half truths to try and help the side that's raping, torturing, murdering, genociding etc are fucking disgusting. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 0:27:13 GMT
I think imperialist propagandists shilling for a murderous dictatorship, spreading lies and half truths to try and help the side that's raping, torturing, murdering, genociding etc are fucking disgusting. Are you saying that you think the video is fake? |
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Post by Olgrligm on Jun 2, 2024 0:28:02 GMT
Who is Megatron? He makes some big claims. The Ukrainian soldiers are Nazis, which is a classic Russian propaganda line? Ukrainian politicians are making billions from the war? NATO troops are stopping Ukrainians fleeing the country? I'd like to see some real evidence for any of that. There's one admittedly unpleasant looking video of soldiers seemingly pressganging a man, but there's no context and, for my knowledge of the language, literally anything could be depicted happening in virtually any part of the world. Strange that there are plenty of able-bodied men in that video who aren't being dragged away by soldiers? |
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 2, 2024 0:31:32 GMT
I think imperialist propagandists shilling for a murderous dictatorship, spreading lies and half truths to try and help the side that's raping, torturing, murdering, genociding etc are fucking disgusting. Are you saying that you think the video is fake? I don't know. There have been tons of fake videos spread by the russians. Ukraine has a mobilisation law passed by the democratically elected government. I talk regularly with people in Ukrainian cities who tell me that they see the law being followed. If the law is violated, that is bad. And there are strong social pressures to fix it. Remember that russia force mobilises Ukrainians and uses them as meat shields. They have been sent to the slaughter en masse. Those who russians think are a risk are sent to basement torture chambers or shot in the back of the head. Pushing russian propaganda narratives is sick. |
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Post by Olgrligm on Jun 2, 2024 0:31:33 GMT
I've no idea how to do Twitter stuff, but here's another of Megatron's set of thoughts about Ukraine. x.com/Megatron_ron/status/1696121052953211272It doesn't sound very plausible to me at all. Every instinct I have to find reputable sources tells me to run a mile from this guy. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 2, 2024 0:32:14 GMT
I've no idea how to do Twitter stuff, but here's another of Megatron's set of thoughts about Ukraine. x.com/Megatron_ron/status/1696121052953211272It doesn't sound very plausible to me at all. Every instinct I have to find reputable sources tells me to run a mile from this guy. This is the guy who called a country that elected a Jewish person as president "Nazi". He's a moron, or he's lying to enable true evil on earth and is absolute fucking scum. |
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Post by Olgrligm on Jun 2, 2024 0:35:18 GMT
I've no idea how to do Twitter stuff, but here's another of Megatron's set of thoughts about Ukraine. x.com/Megatron_ron/status/1696121052953211272It doesn't sound very plausible to me at all. Every instinct I have to find reputable sources tells me to run a mile from this guy. This is the guy who called a country that elected a Jewish person as president "Nazi". He's a moron, or he's lying to enable true evil on earth and is absolute fucking scum. Scrolling through that feed gives me the strong impression that the guy is either an eccentric conspiracy theorist or somebody acting in bad faith, which I guess is what you just said. He's some random guy with millions of followers. It's frightening. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 0:39:26 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 2, 2024 0:43:39 GMT
Ukraine has a right to mobilise to defend itself. It's a war of national survival. I'm glad they have passed laws to go for ways other than snatching people off the streets. That is the worst possible way to do it, and it's not the law (to my knowledge, I used machine translation to read parts) or the experience my Ukrainian friends have seen or know from their friends. (Obviously above is just my opinion and I feel strongly about this). Remember this is all Russia's fault. They could go home any time they want. Are you more concerned about Ukrainian conscription, or what Russia does to Ukrainians? |
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Post by Olgrligm on Jun 2, 2024 0:44:37 GMT
Just to confirm, are we talking about people being press-ganged or the other, more 'questionable' stuff written in the Megatron post(s)? Or both? |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 0:47:28 GMT
Just to confirm, are we talking about people being press-ganged or the other, more 'questionable' stuff written in the Megatron post(s)? Or both? No I wasn't interested in megatron at all but the video itself, I could have chosen any one of hundreds. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 0:50:42 GMT
Are you more concerned about Ukrainian conscription, or what Russia does to Ukrainians? What a stupid question to ask. I think Russia press ganging people on the streets of Moscow is just as egregious as Ukraine press ganging people on the streets of Kiev, don't you? |
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 2, 2024 1:19:37 GMT
Are you more concerned about Ukrainian conscription, or what Russia does to Ukrainians? What a stupid question to ask. I think Russia press ganging people on the streets of Moscow is just as egregious as Ukraine press ganging people on the streets of Kiev, don't you? What about invading another country and press ganging the people there. Is that equal, better or worse? I see a big difference between unprovoked aggression Vs self defence. And between dictatorship Vs democracy. And between forcing people from occupied territories to be used as meat versus your own people. EDIT my view: the videos look bad. Ukraine is imperfect, but it has a right to mobilise to defend itself and it should do so using legal ways that protect its people's rights as much as possible. In a war to prevent your own exterminatio, you can mobilise more. The videos look like some of the centres have done it wrong. We don't know which videos are real, but Ukraine has a free press to report this and efforts to fix the wrongdoing. My friends haven't mentioned such wrongdoing, even when we've discussed mobilisation, so I can't believe it's common. Russia has no right to be in Ukraine, and is infinitely worse. This is as close to a morally black and white issue as we see anywhere, and focussing on spreading the propaganda for the evil side is bad IMO. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 1:36:14 GMT
What a stupid question to ask. I think Russia press ganging people on the streets of Moscow is just as egregious as Ukraine press ganging people on the streets of Kiev, don't you? What about invading another country and press ganging the people there. Is that equal, better or worse? I see a big difference between unprovoked aggression Vs self defence. And between dictatorship Vs democracy. And between forcing people from occupied territories to be used as meat versus your own people. EDIT my view: the videos look bad. Ukraine is imperfect, but it has a right to mobilise to defend itself and it should do so using legal ways that protect its people's rights as much as possible. In a war to prevent your own exterminatio, you can mobilise more. The videos look like some of the centres have done it wrong. We don't know which videos are real, but Ukraine has a free press to report this and efforts to fix the wrongdoing. My friends haven't mentioned such wrongdoing, even when we've discussed mobilisation, so I can't believe it's common. Russia has no right to be in Ukraine, and is infinitely worse. This is as close to a morally black and white issue as we see anywhere, and focussing on spreading the propaganda for the evil side is bad IMO. I'm not spreading propaganda, it's been reported in the mainstream press (both right and left) FFS! And I'm simply asking you if you're OK with it? A question that you're seemingly struggling to answer. Replying that 'Russia has no right to be in Ukraine' and talking about the difference between unprovoked agression vs self defence is just deflection, to avoid answering the question, nobody has remotely suggested any of that. As I said, I think it is wrong in both Ukraine and Russia but for some reason you seem unable to condemn it both countries. |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 2, 2024 3:24:10 GMT
What a stupid question to ask. I think Russia press ganging people on the streets of Moscow is just as egregious as Ukraine press ganging people on the streets of Kiev, don't you? What about invading another country and press ganging the people there. Is that equal, better or worse? I see a big difference between unprovoked aggression Vs self defence. And between dictatorship Vs democracy. And between forcing people from occupied territories to be used as meat versus your own people. EDIT my view: the videos look bad. Ukraine is imperfect, but it has a right to mobilise to defend itself and it should do so using legal ways that protect its people's rights as much as possible. In a war to prevent your own exterminatio, you can mobilise more. The videos look like some of the centres have done it wrong. We don't know which videos are real, but Ukraine has a free press to report this and efforts to fix the wrongdoing. My friends haven't mentioned such wrongdoing, even when we've discussed mobilisation, so I can't believe it's common. Russia has no right to be in Ukraine, and is infinitely worse. This is as close to a morally black and white issue as we see anywhere, and focussing on spreading the propaganda for the evil side is bad IMO. No-one can doubt your passion on behalf of the Ukrainian people, you have singlehandedly kept this thread on Page 1 I distrust most videos these days unless I independently vouch their accuracy What is undeniable is that last August Zelensky fired every single regional recruitment official for accepting bribes to recuse people from the Draft, 112 Officials are facing prosecution. Not everyone in Ukraine shares your passion and sums of up to $10,000 are reportedly offered to avoid conscription, a huge some in Ukraine. In that environment with tensions running high I wouldn't rule out anything Surely your Ukrainian friends must have discussed this with you and it was widely reported in US and UK media It's a legitimate subject to be discussed without being branded as some kind of Fifth Columnists |
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Post by adri2008 on Jun 2, 2024 9:22:28 GMT
Does anybody see a scenario where Ukraine (without NATO troops) has any chance to reclaim all of it's lost territory? - it feels like that opportunity has now been lost. If that is the case, then at what point do you think that a deal needs to be hammered out to preserve the lives of Ukrainian soldiers (or do they fight till the last man?)?
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Post by lordb on Jun 2, 2024 10:40:04 GMT
Does anybody see a scenario where Ukraine (without NATO troops) has any chance to reclaim all of it's lost territory? - it feels like that opportunity has now been lost. If that is the case, then at what point do you think that a deal needs to be hammered out to preserve the lives of Ukrainian soldiers (or do they fight till the last man?)? Don’t see any scenario where either side wins totally and unequivocally by military means Eventually an exhausted post Putin Russia will go home |
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Post by Olgrligm on Jun 2, 2024 12:30:14 GMT
Just to confirm, are we talking about people being press-ganged or the other, more 'questionable' stuff written in the Megatron post(s)? Or both? No I wasn't interested in megatron at all but the video itself, I could have chosen any one of hundreds. That's good. I'm fairly convinced that the anonymous feed of walls of text about Western 'globalist' conspiracies is a Russian propagandist hard at work. We are exceptionally lucky to live in a part of the World that has been in a state of peace domestically for around 80 years or so. We're not Gazan civilians, we're not Nigerian Christians being slaughtered in our thousands, we're not trapped in the never-ending cycle of war in North and South Sudan, we're not in the horrible mess in Haiti, we're not in Myanmar. War is horrific and is destroying millions of lives globally (obviously). It'll sound odd, but it's worth taking the time to watch Urbi et Orbi at Christmas or Easter just to hear the list of ongoing conflicts in countries that you've never heard of that our press just aren't interested in. I suppose what I'm trying to get across is that I don't take any of this particularly lightly. As posted above, this is a genuinely existential war for Ukrainians. It seems to be easily forgotten that the initial Russian strategy was a direct assault on Kiev that failed and various attempts to assassinate Zelensky. I would argue that, for Ukrainians, the conflict genuinely meets the traditional criteria for a just war, with point 3 being the closest to a sticking point. - the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; - all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; - there must be serious prospects of success; - the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. We've used conscription in this country in the past. You could argue that this conflict is a far bigger threat to Ukraine than the Second World War was for us, which we at least had the option of sitting out (not that we necessarily should have done), but not many people argue that conscription for that war was wrong. I doubt that it was all sunshine and light, and everybody eagerly raced down to the conscription office. It's just one of the many horrible parts of war, but less horrible than most of the other horrible things being inflicted on Ukrainians. If that makes sense? |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 12:51:03 GMT
No I wasn't interested in megatron at all but the video itself, I could have chosen any one of hundreds. That's good. I'm fairly convinced that the anonymous feed of walls of text about Western 'globalist' conspiracies is a Russian propagandist hard at work. We are exceptionally lucky to live in a part of the World that has been in a state of peace domestically for around 80 years or so. We're not Gazan civilians, we're not Nigerian Christians being slaughtered in our thousands, we're not trapped in the never-ending cycle of war in North and South Sudan, we're not in the horrible mess in Haiti, we're not in Myanmar. War is horrific and is destroying millions of lives globally (obviously). It'll sound odd, but it's worth taking the time to watch Urbi et Orbi at Christmas or Easter just to hear the list of ongoing conflicts in countries that you've never heard of that our press just aren't interested in. I suppose what I'm trying to get across is that I don't take any of this particularly lightly. As posted above, this is a genuinely existential war for Ukrainians. It seems to be easily forgotten that the initial Russian strategy was a direct assault on Kiev that failed and various attempts to assassinate Zelensky. I would argue that, for Ukrainians, the conflict genuinely meets the traditional criteria for a just war, with point 3 being the closest to a sticking point. - the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; - all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; - there must be serious prospects of success; - the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. We've used conscription in this country in the past. You could argue that this conflict is a far bigger threat to Ukraine than the Second World War was for us, which we at least had the option of sitting out (not that we necessarily should have done), but not many people argue that conscription for that war was wrong. I doubt that it was all sunshine and light, and everybody eagerly raced down to the conscription office. It's just one of the many horrible parts of war, but less horrible than most of the other horrible things being inflicted on Ukrainians. If that makes sense? It makes sense (I agree with most of it) but I don't think it actually addresses the question I was asking. Conscription is a very different concept to press ganging individuals. In modern times, we've jailed people for not heeding the call-up, not lifted people off the streets, bundled them into a van and ultimately shipped them off to the front line. This has been going in the cities of Russia and it has been rightly called out. But when exactly the same thing is happening in Ukraine, then people all of a sudden seem to become far less inclined to condemn it. It's a really straight forward question, do you think it's wrong? |
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jun 2, 2024 12:59:29 GMT
Are you saying that you think the video is fake? I don't know. There have been tons of fake videos spread by the russians. Ukraine has a mobilisation law passed by the democratically elected government. I talk regularly with people in Ukrainian cities who tell me that they see the law being followed. If the law is violated, that is bad. And there are strong social pressures to fix it. Remember that russia force mobilises Ukrainians and uses them as meat shields. They have been sent to the slaughter en masse. Those who russians think are a risk are sent to basement torture chambers or shot in the back of the head. Pushing russian propaganda narratives is sick. I thought elections were suspended in Ukraine and if so then democracy is on hold there? |
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Post by questionable on Jun 2, 2024 18:56:56 GMT
Ukraine has a right to mobilise to defend itself. It's a war of national survival. I'm glad they have passed laws to go for ways other than snatching people off the streets. That is the worst possible way to do it, and it's not the law (to my knowledge, I used machine translation to read parts) or the experience my Ukrainian friends have seen or know from their friends. (Obviously above is just my opinion and I feel strongly about this). Remember this is all Russia's fault. They could go home any time they want. Are you more concerned about Ukrainian conscription, or what Russia does to Ukrainians? I was in Nantwich a few weeks ago and there were ruSSians there who have fled ruSSia to avoid being called up. I had to ask what they thought of Putin and they hate him. They said it’s the older generation who support him and not the younger generation, long term ruSSia are screwed |
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Post by Olgrligm on Jun 2, 2024 19:04:41 GMT
That's good. I'm fairly convinced that the anonymous feed of walls of text about Western 'globalist' conspiracies is a Russian propagandist hard at work. We are exceptionally lucky to live in a part of the World that has been in a state of peace domestically for around 80 years or so. We're not Gazan civilians, we're not Nigerian Christians being slaughtered in our thousands, we're not trapped in the never-ending cycle of war in North and South Sudan, we're not in the horrible mess in Haiti, we're not in Myanmar. War is horrific and is destroying millions of lives globally (obviously). It'll sound odd, but it's worth taking the time to watch Urbi et Orbi at Christmas or Easter just to hear the list of ongoing conflicts in countries that you've never heard of that our press just aren't interested in. I suppose what I'm trying to get across is that I don't take any of this particularly lightly. As posted above, this is a genuinely existential war for Ukrainians. It seems to be easily forgotten that the initial Russian strategy was a direct assault on Kiev that failed and various attempts to assassinate Zelensky. I would argue that, for Ukrainians, the conflict genuinely meets the traditional criteria for a just war, with point 3 being the closest to a sticking point. - the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; - all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; - there must be serious prospects of success; - the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. We've used conscription in this country in the past. You could argue that this conflict is a far bigger threat to Ukraine than the Second World War was for us, which we at least had the option of sitting out (not that we necessarily should have done), but not many people argue that conscription for that war was wrong. I doubt that it was all sunshine and light, and everybody eagerly raced down to the conscription office. It's just one of the many horrible parts of war, but less horrible than most of the other horrible things being inflicted on Ukrainians. If that makes sense? It makes sense (I agree with most of it) but I don't think it actually addresses the question I was asking. Conscription is a very different concept to press ganging individuals. In modern times, we've jailed people for not heeding the call-up, not lifted people off the streets, bundled them into a van and ultimately shipped them off to the front line. This has been going in the cities of Russia and it has been rightly called out. But when exactly the same thing is happening in Ukraine, then people all of a sudden seem to become far less inclined to condemn it. It's a really straight forward question, do you think it's wrong? I don't think that it's right, no. I still think that there is a distinction between bundling people into a van to throw into a meatgrinder in a foreign country that you're invading, and dragging people off the street to defend in an existential war. War is simply horrific. Where is this discussion going, though? |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 19:14:45 GMT
It makes sense (I agree with most of it) but I don't think it actually addresses the question I was asking. Conscription is a very different concept to press ganging individuals. In modern times, we've jailed people for not heeding the call-up, not lifted people off the streets, bundled them into a van and ultimately shipped them off to the front line. This has been going in the cities of Russia and it has been rightly called out. But when exactly the same thing is happening in Ukraine, then people all of a sudden seem to become far less inclined to condemn it. It's a really straight forward question, do you think it's wrong? I don't think that it's right, no. I still think that there is a distinction between bundling people into a van to throw into a meatgrinder in a foreign country that you're invading, and dragging people off the street to defend in an existential war. War is simply horrific. Where is this discussion going, though? Nowhere in particular, I was just interested in people's reactions to it on here and in particular people being unable to condemn Ukraine. I've noticed today, that there has been far more discussion about it online. The video is literally EVERYWHERE, maybe I was guilty of raising the question too soon. |
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Post by serpico on Jun 2, 2024 20:13:41 GMT
I wonder how the pro war folk on here will feel about Ukraines territorial integrity when this absolute shit show affects them in a very direct way ? … it’s easy to sit thousands of miles away cheering it on when others are bearing the brunt of it, it’s easy to fight till the last drop of Ukrainian blood, but when it comes home to roost these same warmongers will shit in their pants!
I have absolutely no faith that the Churchill fetishist pretend leaders in the west will keep us out of a direct war with Russia and likely China! Clueless, Absolute wankers each and every one of them!
Just as with Israel, we have no national interest in supporting Ukraine, there’s no benefit for us, it’s all detrimental, the best thing we could do now is call for talks, negotiate and normalise relations with Russia, trade is the key to peace!
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