Putin invades Ukraine

[mtrstudent]

May 22, 2024 13:38:05 GMT Gawa said:

May 21, 2024 16:04:41 GMT mtrstudent said:

I'm about to head to a meeting so will need to get links later...

But "both sides" and "West bad" are distractions. Obviously the most evil side always wants to push "butbothsides".

Russia compulsively lies and we westerners struggle to comprehend just how little reality matters to their words. It's like our reaction to Donald Trump.

My Ukrainian friends from Mykolaiv and Odesa openly speak russian in the street. Videos of rescuers after russian terror bombing in Kharkiv or Kostyantinivka have victims screaming in russian and rescuers shouting back in russian. Many Ukrainian units speak russian. Ukrainians elected Zelenskyy, a native Russian speaker.

There are some linguistic frictions, but the claims of "Donbas genocide" and russian being punished are russian lies. They will say anything they think will get sympathy or justification or help them to murder Ukrainians.

Do you think a Russian person, following Russian coverage, would be saying much different to yourself now? I'm sure they'd shut down any criticism of Russia with the same rhetorics. 

I can look at the actions of western military in Iraq, Israel, Northern Ireland, Afghanistan, Vietnam and many other countries and on reflection realise "wait we did alot of bad things there which didn't come out of the grapevine till years later". Now with that knowledge I'm not suddenly going to think "Oh well I know we made mistakes in alot of previous conflicts but this time I am absolutely certain that we are defo 100% the good guys and what we are doing is for the greater good of humanity".

Just this week we found out how the british government and NHS gave thousands of people infected blood and have tried their best to cover it up for decades. A few months before we found out about how thousands of people got themselves into debts and some even did prison time, and some unfortunately killed themselves because they were being prosecuted under the post office scandal which again was another cover up. 

Or what about Julian Assange, still imprisoned in the UK today while the US try and extradicate him, a journalist. What was his crime? Disclosing the truth and the extent of some of the crimes we commit in the west? 

Does none of the above come into your mind when processing everything which is happening in Russia? Is it just blind faith that we've been told Russia is bad for years so everything is completely justified and we have to stop Russia at all costs because this time we the west are being 100% genuine in our intentions? 

Critical thinking isn't following Russian propaganda and it isn't a distraction either. But here we are where a few years ago all the western leaders were condemning Russia based on an ICC ruling. And today the same leaders are ignoring an ICC ruling because it doesn't suit them and they're opposing it. Correct for Putin but incorrect for Netanyahu? How does that work?

It's important that we all try to educate ourselves and do our research across a variety of sources because Russia lies, Israel lies, Uk lies, America lies. So if you want the truth you aren't going to ever get it just by following one side of the argument and discounting any alternative as propoganda. The Donbas region has a long and complex history which not many of us can comprehend. Yet it's spoken about as if it's been an Ukranian territory for centuries when it hasn't. It's been under the power of Poland, Lithuania and Russia for significantly longer than it's been Ukranian. Alot of the names for places in the region are derived from the Russian language because it was the Russians under Catherine the Great which built up the region. 

Now with the above said that doesn't mean I'm saying everyone there wants to be a part of Russia. But did I know any of that before doing my own research? No. To me I thought it would be like France coming across and taking the South of England. Instead it's a bit more like Ireland taking back the North of Ireland. Where some of the population identify more as Irish, some identify more as British. It's more complex than made out. 

But I'm absolutely not going to blindly follow the narrative pushed out by the same countries who want to honour an ICC ruling when it suits them and speak out against an ICC ruling when it doesn't suit them. We are also complicit in war crimes and have a history of doing bad and I hope the Russians who get told about how bad the west is, I hope some of them have the nuance to think outside the box and think maybe the issue is the leaders and not the people. Just look at the rife inequality unfolding across the west today, the poverty, homelessness, lack of health care and everything else. Do those leaders even care about the people they're meant to represent? How do so many of these countries oversee such growing inequality and always seem to take the side of the corporations over their population? And cover up anything they do wrong until they're finally caught out. How many blood scandals and post office scandals have there been which haven't been uncovered. 

So I understand and respect why people may want to flee and not fight in these wars because there is more to life than dying for a load of narcissists who put their greed above their people. "fighting for your country" is the biggest load of propaganda there is. Aside from a few countries which have been around for centuries, the vast majority of them have continually swapped hands and borders throughout their existence. Are australian indigenous people remembered for fighting back? The roman empire for defending Britain against invaders? Vikings for defending territories in Ireland they once ruled? People from Donbas who fought to keep the region in the Poland-Lithuanian alliance? 

Short term they may think they're fighting for "their country" but as years turn into decades which turn into centuries these countries and borders will always change. You don't fight for your country. You fight for your paymaster. And for some there's more to life than fighting a war for leaders who put their own self importance first.

I'd agree that "fighting for your country" isn't logically a good reason. I'd fight for people, rights, ideals etc. If I were Ukrainian I'd fight to defend Ukraine, but as a russian I wouldn't to invade Ukraine. Irl I didn't sign up for the Afghanistan occupation, but I would fight a Nazi invasion. Also - I didn't write a judgment of Ukrainians who fled! The russians put them in a horrendous place and I don't feel I can judge those individuals.

One way I react badly is many of those arguments sound to me just like "butwhataboutbutwhataboutbutwhataboutbuthwatabout". And it's always the most shitty side who benefits from buthwatabout. In my head I organise arguments like this: "argument" SO "conclusion in this case", and then decide if I think that's ok or not. So my interpretation of parts of your post includes stuff like:

- "The NHS has a blood scandal" SO "we should support russian Imperialism and the mass slaughter of innocents".
- "Some people in Donbas identify with their russian culture" SO "we should support russian Imperialism and the mass slaughter of innocents".

Also, I'm saying people are far too trusting of russian propaganda, Western propaganda doesn't have much to do with it. Even people who say "I'm an independent thinker I don't just trust the narrative" will think there's some possible credibility for "genocide in Donbas" because they somehow believe a little bit of the russian lies. It's really fucking dangerous, and we're seeing Trump exploit people's trust and credulity in the same way.

[mtrstudent]

May 21, 2024 14:25:23 GMT Gawa said:

May 21, 2024 14:07:29 GMT mtrstudent said:

It's a decade since russian agents organised the occupation of parts of Luhansk and Donetsk under the barrels of russian guns and tanks.

That's quite a different thing.

Where is your source Mtrstudent for that claim? There were also similar claims from Russia about Ukraine torturing and murdering Russian speakers in the region.

First off: will it change your opinion on whether to put weight into russian propaganda in future if you find out it was bullshit?

Here's a November 2014 post with Russian ex-FSB agent Igor Strelkov talking about the occupation of Slovyansk and "It was the disarmament - under the trunks of the machine guns". He claims his unit was organised, formed and ordered by russia, but included "volunteers" and veterans, some with Ukrainian citizenship for propaganda cover. He has done other interviews and explained how russia invaded Crimea and Donbas, and how he had to rely on force in Crimea because there wasn't the local support needed for the russian conquest.

Here's a Russian T-72B3 tank belonging to the 200th Motorised Infantry Brigade of the Russian Armed Forces near Luhansk airport in 2014. The 74th and 136th were also proven to be in the area. Many of the other vehicles seen on photos or videos inside Ukraine during 2014 had distinct markings that allows them to be IDd. They were later photographed back at their military bases inside Russia.

Remember - russian propaganda insisted this didn't happen. It was an extreme and blatant lie. Can you show me a case where western propaganda denied the presence of western armoured regiments while footage was going around showing our tanks in place?

[mtrstudent]

Thread by a journalist on the famous "peaky blinders" drone unit, now in Kharkiv.

It's worrying. We've seen a lot of famous units sent to Kharkiv - like the 3rd assault and 82nd air assault who are responsible for some of the most famous combat last summer.

It's not clear how many reserves Ukraine has left right now, it's still a race to see if Russia can crack the defences before new recruits and ammo arrive.

[mtrstudent]

A very bad development. If China sends military kit en masse to Russia then that's catastrophic.

Without China, Putin is relying almost entirely on pro-dictatorship groups in the West like MAGA republicans. If the Democrats win the US election he's screwed. With China involved things get a lot, lot harder.

[mtrstudent]

Russian rocket bombardment of Bilohorivka village area. The Ukrainians stopped russia here in July 2022 and have held the line since.

Just one more horrible, brutal battleground.

[scfcno1fan]

May 22, 2024 15:37:23 GMT mtrstudent said:

Russian rocket bombardment of Bilohorivka village area. The Ukrainians stopped russia here in July 2022 and have held the line since.

Just one more horrible, brutal battleground.

Madness.

Things like that just don’t seem real.

Elections coming up in the UK and US will deter their focus. I’m worried about the outcome for Ukraine in the medium term.

[Gawa]

May 22, 2024 14:33:14 GMT mtrstudent said:

May 21, 2024 14:25:23 GMT Gawa said:

Where is your source Mtrstudent for that claim? There were also similar claims from Russia about Ukraine torturing and murdering Russian speakers in the region.

First off: will it change your opinion on whether to put weight into russian propaganda in future if you find out it was bullshit?

Here's a November 2014 post with Russian ex-FSB agent Igor Strelkov talking about the occupation of Slovyansk and "It was the disarmament - under the trunks of the machine guns". He claims his unit was organised, formed and ordered by russia, but included "volunteers" and veterans, some with Ukrainian citizenship for propaganda cover. He has done other interviews and explained how russia invaded Crimea and Donbas, and how he had to rely on force in Crimea because there wasn't the local support needed for the russian conquest.

Here's a Russian T-72B3 tank belonging to the 200th Motorised Infantry Brigade of the Russian Armed Forces near Luhansk airport in 2014. The 74th and 136th were also proven to be in the area. Many of the other vehicles seen on photos or videos inside Ukraine during 2014 had distinct markings that allows them to be IDd. They were later photographed back at their military bases inside Russia.

Remember - russian propaganda insisted this didn't happen. It was an extreme and blatant lie. Can you show me a case where western propaganda denied the presence of western armoured regiments while footage was going around showing our tanks in place?

I believe there is certainly Russian propoganda. But equally I think we also have our own propoganda and bias. The governments response to the Israel situation is testament to that bias.

To be honest though I'm more just opposed to conscription and I think everyone should be given the option on whether or not they wish to fight.

I know I probably appear anti west and maybe even insulting to ex military. I think I'm over compensating in trying to give a different perspective which contributes. And in terms of military, I don't blame the individuals who serve and I also recognise they do alot of good too in those countries I listed earlier. I'm more so just trying to highlight that we commit war crimes too. As they say there is always 3 truths; there's, ours and the actual.

[musik]

May 22, 2024 15:35:34 GMT mtrstudent said:

With China involved things get a lot, lot harder.

They're best buddies and China give a shit about Europe. Especially when they in partnership w Russia have taken Europe and made it their own.

[mtrstudent]

ATACMS blew up yet another of Russia's most modern air defence systems, this time in Donetsk.

They sell these systems for about $1bn export. ATACMS have also blown up a missile corvette, at least 4 jets, around 20 helicopters, half another S-400 air defence system and a training camp with 100+ russians.

Imagine if a thousand had been sent in the buildup to Ukraine's 2023 counteroffensive.

[mtrstudent]

The West are talking more about seizing profits from frozen russian assets to fund Ukraine's defence.

They should just hand over the assets tbh.

Anyway, Putin just signed a decree allowing Russia to seize any western assets inside Russia in retaliation. The finance guy I follow says that most "western" assets inside russia are actually things owned by western shell companies of russian oligarchs. It's kinda funny that he'd just be stealing more from the billionaire russians who stole their wealth in the first place.

And if you're a westerner with assets in Russia that get stolen well tough shit. You fucked up betting on dictatorship.

[mtrstudent]

Whoops they left a grenade sized hole in their cage 😂

[LDE76]

May 23, 2024 14:50:27 GMT mtrstudent said:

And if you're a westerner with assets in Russia that get stolen well tough shit. You fucked up betting on dictatorship.

Not sure how much use they get out of Steven Seagal's dojo.

They'd probably just hand it over to their Belorussian mates.

[mtrstudent]

Trainload of russian vehicles going to the Kharkiv front. Two interesting things:

- the modern ones have parade ribbons on. They might have been sent straight from Moscow's "victory day" parade.

- lots of old old vehicles. T-62 tank, MT-LBs they don't make any more, and crappy BRDM-2 scout cars they were retiring.

[scfcno1fan]

Russia testing the resolve of Estonia by moving some water barriers?

[mtrstudent]

Ukraine took out a couple of Russian jets with drones last week.

Appears there was also a decoy there, so it's 2 jets rather than 3. Still, very nicely done!

[mtrstudent]

Incredibile footage of russia's most modern S-400 air defence system trying to protect itself against what looks like an M39 ATACMS. Half a battery gone.

The cluster ATACMS was introduced in 1991 at $1 million and the US was saying they're out of date and would be junked soon.

The US basically saved itself disposal costs to wipe out one of russia's most valuable assets.

[mtrstudent]

Drone video shows how much kit russia loses for each bit of land it conquers near Bilohorivka village. Astonishing.

[mtrstudent]

One thing that surprised me is stuff like this. A leaked list of missing russian soldiers, and the researchers confirmed many of the names are real missing people by checking social media of the families etc.

One russian regiment records they're missing 193 soldiers. That's on top of killed and wounded!

The tweeter asks "why does command hate these guys so much" - fair question!

[mrcoke]

www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/german-danish-dutch-leopard-1-tanks-delivered-to-ukraine-could-not-function-danish-state-media/3229952

[LDE76]

Additional commentary not required.

[mtrstudent]

Russia is going to try and murder as many people as possible in Kharkiv. 😢 😢

Also for gawa: notice the local Telegram channel spells the name in russian, not Ukrainian.

I've regularly spoken to russian-speaking Ukrainians and seen russian freely spoken on Ukrainian streets for years, yet russian propaganda about widespread horrible treatment for russian speakers keeps leaking out and being taken seriously.

[mtrstudent]

Remember these Russian threats are all lies to scare us into letting them conquer Ukraine.

Unleash the ukrainiand on military targets in Russia, and order a ton more cruise and ballistic missiles.

[musik]

On Swedish TV yesterday, Russia want peace.
Anything else today about that? 🤠

However, they want the map to be re-drawn and how it is today, not how it was before the war.

[butlerstbob]

May 25, 2024 15:24:30 GMT mtrstudent said:

Remember these Russian threats are all lies to scare us into letting them conquer Ukraine.

Unleash the ukrainiand on military targets in Russia, and order a ton more cruise and ballistic missiles.

It's all bluster, they just wouldn't fuckin dare!

[mtrstudent]

May 25, 2024 17:00:59 GMT butlerstbob said:

May 25, 2024 15:24:30 GMT mtrstudent said:

Remember these Russian threats are all lies to scare us into letting them conquer Ukraine.

Unleash the ukrainiand on military targets in Russia, and order a ton more cruise and ballistic missiles.

It's all blister, they just wouldn't fuckin dare!

Yep!

Before the invasion Putin promised consequences the like we'd never seen if we sent help.

The russians screamed about javelins, artillery, tanks, F-16s etc. They screamed about the liberation of Kherson and the bombing of Crimea.

And they did fuck all about it except watch as their military got smoked.

The problem was, all this Russian screaming has scared a lot of politicians and constantly delayed help to Ukraine. It's been one of russia's best weapons, even thoug it's all fake.

[butlerstbob]

May 25, 2024 17:29:47 GMT mtrstudent said:

May 25, 2024 17:00:59 GMT butlerstbob said:

It's all blister, they just wouldn't fuckin dare!

Yep!

Before the invasion Putin promised consequences the like we'd never seen if we sent help.

The russians screamed about javelins, artillery, tanks, F-16s etc. They screamed about the liberation of Kherson and the bombing of Crimea.

And they did fuck all about it except watch as their military got smoked.

The problem was, all this Russian screaming has scared a lot of politicians and constantly delayed help to Ukraine. It's been one of russia's best weapons, even thoug it's all fake.

Mate I totally agree, they are full of shit, built on a reputation of fear! Just like the playground bully...if NATO etc stood up to them they would wilt up and into their own arseholes

[RichieBarkerOut!]

May 25, 2024 15:24:30 GMT mtrstudent said:

Remember these Russian threats are all lies to scare us into letting them conquer Ukraine.

Unleash the ukrainiand on military targets in Russia, and order a ton more cruise and ballistic missiles.

Well that's good to hear that the Russians do not count Crimea as Russian territory.

[mtrstudent]

Swedish weapons can be used to attack military targets inside russia.

It's possible the US is using its leverage to stop Ukraine from using any NATO weapons though - I guess we'll see.

[mtrstudent]

About 8 burned out russian vans that tried to supply infantry who'd invaded Kharkiv.

That's why I didn't think they'd go far and quickly. Doesn't seem easy to advance on foot when your supplies get blown up.

[mtrstudent]

Seems like another ATACMS attack, this time near Luhansk airport.

Fro what I saw it looked like russian air defence missed again, but so far the only evidence of damage is some grass on fire. Hopefully soon we'll see more wrecked russian stuff.