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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 6, 2022 1:17:43 GMT
Here's a crappy old Russian T-62 captured by Ukraine, probably in Kherson region. One of about 12 taken in last few days.
Who knows if the Ukrainians will even be able to do anything useful with that junk?
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Post by wannabee on Oct 6, 2022 2:05:46 GMT
Forgive a stupid question from someone who dips in and out of this thread due to a lack of knowledge to contribute but Taking Khariv as an example it had a population of about 1.5M before the war began. I assume the people that remained after occupation were either those unable to relocate or indifferent to occupation or positively supportive. I have no idea what the number remaining might be but would guess its a lot. If as you suggest if Ukraine successfully liberate Khariv and Russian would suffer heavy losses wouldn't there be repercussions for the Civilian population My questions, finally, are a) are the Ukrainian Army indifferent to civilian casualties b) are the local Civilians likely to welcome or resent liberation and c) are the Civilians of Khariv likely to aid or hinder their liberation Apologies if these questions are asked and answered previously but my question equally holds for other areas of occupied Ukraine That's a scary question isn't it? And miles away from being stupid. I can only say what things *look like* from videos. In the cities that fell quickly this year and are behind the lines (Kherson, Melitopol, Berdiansk) there are still more working age people around in videos. In front line places (Izyum, Lyman etc) you mostly see old or young. Russia does "filtration" on occupied cities: torturing, enslaving and murdering working age folk that don't bow to Putin. Even just being related to a Ukrainian soldier is enough to get you "filtered". Kharkiv *region* is being freed - the city has been held by Ukraine the whole time. Kherson city is Russian held. So far the Russians has bombed the shit out of cities that have loads of civilians while Ukraine makes careful strikes with accurate weapons, trying to save civilians. I dunno what Ukraine'll do if it gets to attack Kherson city. They'd have inside help, accurate weapons and he Russians would be cut off from supplies. It could be done carefully. The biggest risk to civilians seems to be what the Russians will do while they hold it. Thanks for your reply I only used Kharkiv which you understood as an example not knowing the Demographics of each large population area Again only using Lyman as an example from the outside looking in the Russian Army simply fucked off (on orders) because their supply lines were cut off and it was futile to remain. My fear is that as things become more desperate for Russia their instructions ( from Putin and the Generals) may be to "dig in" the consequences could be catastrophic I listened to an interview today with a Ukrainian Female MP and she was obviously guarded in her reply about how many fatalities Ukraine had suffered At first she ventured a few thousand and then countered by saying no figures are available from Mariupol ( which Ukrainians dug in) its still under Russian occupation but went on to say reports suggest it could be between 20/80 thousand this from a city of less than half a million Holy crap Great that the Ukrainians are on the offensive but this catastrophe is likely to last for quite a while with even more extreme consequences
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Post by swampmongrel on Oct 6, 2022 5:50:59 GMT
That's a scary question isn't it? And miles away from being stupid. I can only say what things *look like* from videos. In the cities that fell quickly this year and are behind the lines (Kherson, Melitopol, Berdiansk) there are still more working age people around in videos. In front line places (Izyum, Lyman etc) you mostly see old or young. Russia does "filtration" on occupied cities: torturing, enslaving and murdering working age folk that don't bow to Putin. Even just being related to a Ukrainian soldier is enough to get you "filtered". Kharkiv *region* is being freed - the city has been held by Ukraine the whole time. Kherson city is Russian held. So far the Russians has bombed the shit out of cities that have loads of civilians while Ukraine makes careful strikes with accurate weapons, trying to save civilians. I dunno what Ukraine'll do if it gets to attack Kherson city. They'd have inside help, accurate weapons and he Russians would be cut off from supplies. It could be done carefully. The biggest risk to civilians seems to be what the Russians will do while they hold it. Thanks for your reply I only used Kharkiv which you understood as an example not knowing the Demographics of each large population area Again only using Lyman as an example from the outside looking in the Russian Army simply fucked off (on orders) because their supply lines were cut off and it was futile to remain. My fear is that as things become more desperate for Russia their instructions ( from Putin and the Generals) may be to "dig in" the consequences could be catastrophic I listened to an interview today with a Ukrainian Female MP and she was obviously guarded in her reply about how many fatalities Ukraine had suffered At first she ventured a few thousand and then countered by saying no figures are available from Mariupol ( which Ukrainians dug in) its still under Russian occupation but went on to say reports suggest it could be between 20/80 thousand this from a city of less than half a million Holy crap Great that the Ukrainians are on the offensive but this catastrophe is likely to last for quite a while with even more extreme consequences Kharkiv wasn’t occupied. Do you mean Kherson?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2022 7:11:01 GMT
A right cunts alliance forming
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2022 7:13:23 GMT
Here's a crappy old Russian T-62 captured by Ukraine, probably in Kherson region. One of about 12 taken in last few days. Who knows if the Ukrainians will even be able to do anything useful with that junk? The best thing would be to make them a purely defensive threat? Build them into mini strongholds, surround them with earthworks to the front and side to add protection and have the guns facing towards where Russians may come from.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2022 9:47:04 GMT
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Post by scfcfred on Oct 6, 2022 9:57:12 GMT
I'll try a quick update from what I've been reading. As longdistancekiddy has pointed out, I'm no expert but worst case is I look stupid in a few weeks and you can laugh at me! North/East (Kharkiv/Luhansk)- Ukraine still mopping up in Kharkiv Oblast - everyone thinks Russia will fall back to a place called Svatove. Then Kharkiv should be fully liberated. - Apparently Russia should expect heavy losses if they defend there, Ukraine would have higher ground and there are woods near the supply roads. Ukraine has been ambushing convoys from those. East (Donetsk)- Russia claims it's advancing but they've said the same since February and have gone far less distance than a literal snail would have done. - Ukraine says Russia keeps attacking so should be taking heavy casualties since this is very heavily fortified. - But it's close to Donetsk city so Russian artillery is well-supplied and can hide among civilians. Ukraine is probably taking heavy casualties. South (Kherson)- Occupied Kherson city is on the west bank of the massive Dnipro river and Ukraine has been hitting all the bridges to cut off Russian supplies. - Huge advances by Ukraine in the north. The Russians seem to be retreating without major losses though. Ukraine is losing more than anywhere else I've seen (10-20 vehicles a day, including a couple of tanks). Pics show more Russian than Ukrainian losses, but plenty of crap like old T-62 tanks. Ukraine probably can't re-use these too easily. - Rumours are all over the place though. - If Putin did send ~20k soldiers including his best, then Kherson is a huge deal. The city is surrounded by open land where Russian artillery could slaughter attackers and swing things Putin's way. But unless Russia has been secretly shipping its good soldiers and equipment back over the river every night, then a win for Ukraine would be massive. Overall- Photos and videos are looking muddy, that could slow things down. Forgive a stupid question from someone who dips in and out of this thread due to a lack of knowledge to contribute but Taking Khariv as an example it had a population of about 1.5M before the war began. I assume the people that remained after occupation were either those unable to relocate or indifferent to occupation or positively supportive. I have no idea what the number remaining might be but would guess its a lot. If as you suggest if Ukraine successfully liberate Khariv and Russian would suffer heavy losses wouldn't there be repercussions for the Civilian population My questions, finally, are a) are the Ukrainian Army indifferent to civilian casualties b) are the local Civilians likely to welcome or resent liberation and c) are the Civilians of Khariv likely to aid or hinder their liberation Apologies if these questions are asked and answered previously but my question equally holds for other areas of occupied Ukraine Kharkiv was never occupied Maybe you mean Kherson. This video was made shortly after it was occupied. You can draw your own conclusions, but even more so now there is only very minimal Russian support in any Ukrainian regions.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 6, 2022 10:03:42 GMT
Here's a crappy old Russian T-62 captured by Ukraine, probably in Kherson region. One of about 12 taken in last few days. Who knows if the Ukrainians will even be able to do anything useful with that junk? Does anyone on here remember the store of old American tanks in Apedale after WWII? I used to go and play in them after school in the 50s, until some old geezer came and chased us off. Then we would go and play in the air raid shelter in Chesterton Park or go and play in a marl hole. Happy days! Kids today don't know what they missed!
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Post by scfcfred on Oct 6, 2022 10:07:55 GMT
Great footage ambush and surrender
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Post by scfcfred on Oct 6, 2022 10:22:14 GMT
vote in the 1991 referendum in 🇺🇦 on independence. Every single region voted clearly for independence.
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Post by steve66 on Oct 6, 2022 11:21:53 GMT
But we know putin/russia will say Ukrainian’s blown own people up
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 6, 2022 14:39:56 GMT
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Post by lordb on Oct 6, 2022 15:02:14 GMT
I'll try a quick update from what I've been reading. As longdistancekiddy has pointed out, I'm no expert but worst case is I look stupid in a few weeks and you can laugh at me! North/East (Kharkiv/Luhansk)- Ukraine still mopping up in Kharkiv Oblast - everyone thinks Russia will fall back to a place called Svatove. Then Kharkiv should be fully liberated. - Apparently Russia should expect heavy losses if they defend there, Ukraine would have higher ground and there are woods near the supply roads. Ukraine has been ambushing convoys from those. East (Donetsk)- Russia claims it's advancing but they've said the same since February and have gone far less distance than a literal snail would have done. - Ukraine says Russia keeps attacking so should be taking heavy casualties since this is very heavily fortified. - But it's close to Donetsk city so Russian artillery is well-supplied and can hide among civilians. Ukraine is probably taking heavy casualties. South (Kherson)- Occupied Kherson city is on the west bank of the massive Dnipro river and Ukraine has been hitting all the bridges to cut off Russian supplies. - Huge advances by Ukraine in the north. The Russians seem to be retreating without major losses though. Ukraine is losing more than anywhere else I've seen (10-20 vehicles a day, including a couple of tanks). Pics show more Russian than Ukrainian losses, but plenty of crap like old T-62 tanks. Ukraine probably can't re-use these too easily. - Rumours are all over the place though. - If Putin did send ~20k soldiers including his best, then Kherson is a huge deal. The city is surrounded by open land where Russian artillery could slaughter attackers and swing things Putin's way. But unless Russia has been secretly shipping its good soldiers and equipment back over the river every night, then a win for Ukraine would be massive. Overall- Photos and videos are looking muddy, that could slow things down. Forgive a stupid question from someone who dips in and out of this thread due to a lack of knowledge to contribute but Taking Khariv as an example it had a population of about 1.5M before the war began. I assume the people that remained after occupation were either those unable to relocate or indifferent to occupation or positively supportive. I have no idea what the number remaining might be but would guess its a lot. If as you suggest if Ukraine successfully liberate Khariv and Russian would suffer heavy losses wouldn't there be repercussions for the Civilian population My questions, finally, are a) are the Ukrainian Army indifferent to civilian casualties b) are the local Civilians likely to welcome or resent liberation and c) are the Civilians of Khariv likely to aid or hinder their liberation Apologies if these questions are asked and answered previously but my question equally holds for other areas of occupied Ukraine re question a: Ukraine army is fighting for their own country, their own people they are absolutely not going to be indifferent to civilian casualties re b: the civilians have been reacting with utter unadulterated delight so far at their liberation C: the civilians will not be hindering liberation no maybe in areas further east &/or Crimea should/when Ukraine army gets there there might be more pro Russian areas? that remains to be seen
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 6, 2022 15:16:52 GMT
Good article IMO. Managed to criticise mistakes of both the West and Putin without doing "both sides are bad so we should let Putin genocide the Ukrainians" which I think is one of the stupidest and cruellest arguments I keep seeing. Might not agree on every detail but I can respect the honesty and thoughtfulness.
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 6, 2022 15:46:16 GMT
re question a: Ukraine army is fighting for their own country, their own people they are absolutely not going to be indifferent to civilian casualties re b: the civilians have been reacting with utter unadulterated delight so far at their liberation C: the civilians will not be hindering liberation no maybe in areas further east &/or Crimea should/when Ukraine army gets there there might be more pro Russian areas? that remains to be seen If Ukraine can push into the bits occupied pre-2014 I have no idea what'll happen. They used to vote quite strongly pro-Russian. But lots of the working-age men there have been forced to the front and killed or maimed. Telegram channels from Donetsk were complaining about Russian bullying and corruption even before the war, but they've also lived in a Putinist bubble. In the US I see people complain about getting fucked by politicians and then vote for those politicians to keep fucking them in the same way and they could easily escape their propaganda chamber... Donetsk and Luhansk cities are also massive and fortified. If Ukraine ever gets to that stage they'll have to be clever once again.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 6, 2022 15:47:06 GMT
Forgive a stupid question from someone who dips in and out of this thread due to a lack of knowledge to contribute but Taking Khariv as an example it had a population of about 1.5M before the war began. I assume the people that remained after occupation were either those unable to relocate or indifferent to occupation or positively supportive. I have no idea what the number remaining might be but would guess its a lot. If as you suggest if Ukraine successfully liberate Khariv and Russian would suffer heavy losses wouldn't there be repercussions for the Civilian population My questions, finally, are a) are the Ukrainian Army indifferent to civilian casualties b) are the local Civilians likely to welcome or resent liberation and c) are the Civilians of Khariv likely to aid or hinder their liberation Apologies if these questions are asked and answered previously but my question equally holds for other areas of occupied Ukraine re question a: Ukraine army is fighting for their own country, their own people they are absolutely not going to be indifferent to civilian casualties re b: the civilians have been reacting with utter unadulterated delight so far at their liberation C: the civilians will not be hindering liberation no maybe in areas further east &/or Crimea should/when Ukraine army gets there there might be more pro Russian areas? that remains to be seen I don't think is as simple as you make out, perhaps and I hope I'm wrong The population of Ukraine is about 44 Million (Well it used to be) about 78% Identity as Ukrainian 17.3% identify as Russian or just over 7.5 Million It's safe to assume the vast Majority live in the Regions bordering Russia Being Ethnically Russian doesn't automatically mean you will fight against Ukraine but that is still a hell of a lot of people with divided loyalties Historically we have seen Civil War type situations which this may become with family members on opposing sides. I do not think its too far fetched to envisage this happening here Crimea is a whole different kettle of fish with the Demographic of the 2.4 Million people being 70% Russian 15% Ukrainian and the remainder Tartars who would side with Russia I can't conceive of a Ukrainian attack on Crimea anytime soon I prefaced my original post by saying I have no direct knowledge so my musings my be complete Bow Locks
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Post by andystokey on Oct 6, 2022 16:49:50 GMT
But we know putin/russia will say Ukrainian’s blown own people up He blew up a apartments full of Russians in Moscow, I don't think he'd think twice about "pretend" Russians in Ukraine.
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 6, 2022 22:53:52 GMT
The population of Ukraine is about 44 Million (Well it used to be) about 78% Identity as Ukrainian 17.3% identify as Russian or just over 7.5 Million It's safe to assume the vast Majority live in the Regions bordering Russia Being Ethnically Russian doesn't automatically mean you will fight against Ukraine but that is still a hell of a lot of people with divided loyalties Zelenskyy's first language is Russian & he won the oblasts with many ethnic Russians except Donetsk and Luhansk. It seems there's a strong Ukrainian identity that's also held by Russian speakers. People greeted Russian invaders with huge protests under Ukrainian flags, followed by car bombs. Ukrainian liberators are met with love and food in areas with lots of ethnic Russian-Ukrainians. The videos could be biased but the Russians would share anything they could to look good and they've got basically nada. Ukrainians have said how opinions changed as occupied Donbas went to corrupt shit. Even in December 2021 Russia was unpopular. Basically I would be shocked if there's a serious problem with pro-Russian folk outside the bits conquered in 2014. A lot of colonisers might need to be returned to Russia when this is done though.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2022 0:15:05 GMT
The population of Ukraine is about 44 Million (Well it used to be) about 78% Identity as Ukrainian 17.3% identify as Russian or just over 7.5 Million It's safe to assume the vast Majority live in the Regions bordering Russia Being Ethnically Russian doesn't automatically mean you will fight against Ukraine but that is still a hell of a lot of people with divided loyalties Zelenskyy's first language is Russian & he won the oblasts with many ethnic Russians except Donetsk and Luhansk. It seems there's a strong Ukrainian identity that's also held by Russian speakers. People greeted Russian invaders with huge protests under Ukrainian flags, followed by car bombs. Ukrainian liberators are met with love and food in areas with lots of ethnic Russian-Ukrainians. The videos could be biased but the Russians would share anything they could to look good and they've got basically nada.Ukrainians have said how opinions changed as occupied Donbas went to corrupt shit. Even in December 2021 Russia was unpopular. Basically I would be shocked if there's a serious problem with pro-Russian folk outside the bits conquered in 2014. A lot of colonisers might need to be returned to Russia when this is done though.
There is absolutely nothing is there? They're not even trying to stage it.
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 7, 2022 0:23:17 GMT
Zelenskyy's first language is Russian & he won the oblasts with many ethnic Russians except Donetsk and Luhansk. It seems there's a strong Ukrainian identity that's also held by Russian speakers. People greeted Russian invaders with huge protests under Ukrainian flags, followed by car bombs. Ukrainian liberators are met with love and food in areas with lots of ethnic Russian-Ukrainians. The videos could be biased but the Russians would share anything they could to look good and they've got basically nada.Ukrainians have said how opinions changed as occupied Donbas went to corrupt shit. Even in December 2021 Russia was unpopular. Basically I would be shocked if there's a serious problem with pro-Russian folk outside the bits conquered in 2014. A lot of colonisers might need to be returned to Russia when this is done though. There is absolutely nothing is there? They're not even trying to stage it. I've seen some... But then local people show videos of the "pro Russian locals" arriving in armoured cars before. Even then they look tiny with hardly any attendance. Iirc happened in Kherson earlier after the Russians spilled the locals' blood on the streets to shut them up. The Luhansk "celebrations" for being conquered also looked like a damp squib.
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Post by lordb on Oct 7, 2022 7:31:22 GMT
re question a: Ukraine army is fighting for their own country, their own people they are absolutely not going to be indifferent to civilian casualties re b: the civilians have been reacting with utter unadulterated delight so far at their liberation C: the civilians will not be hindering liberation no maybe in areas further east &/or Crimea should/when Ukraine army gets there there might be more pro Russian areas? that remains to be seen I don't think is as simple as you make out, perhaps and I hope I'm wrong The population of Ukraine is about 44 Million (Well it used to be) about 78% Identity as Ukrainian 17.3% identify as Russian or just over 7.5 Million It's safe to assume the vast Majority live in the Regions bordering Russia Being Ethnically Russian doesn't automatically mean you will fight against Ukraine but that is still a hell of a lot of people with divided loyalties Historically we have seen Civil War type situations which this may become with family members on opposing sides. I do not think its too far fetched to envisage this happening here Crimea is a whole different kettle of fish with the Demographic of the 2.4 Million people being 70% Russian 15% Ukrainian and the remainder Tartars who would side with Russia I can't conceive of a Ukrainian attack on Crimea anytime soon I prefaced my original post by saying I have no direct knowledge so my musings my be complete Bow Locks I'll stand by my previous post but with the caveat that the answers to your questions are much harder to answer once Ukraine reaches those Eastern regions That may never happen, Russia will pull out eventually
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 7, 2022 11:05:05 GMT
Interesting thread, related to what wannabee was asking. Claims this guy was in the pro-Russia party and now posing in Ukraine army uniform
Glory hunter?
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 7, 2022 11:28:19 GMT
Another one.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 7, 2022 11:38:18 GMT
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Post by xchpotter on Oct 7, 2022 11:41:30 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 7, 2022 11:43:25 GMT
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Post by FranktheRabbit on Oct 7, 2022 12:32:57 GMT
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Post by OldStokie on Oct 7, 2022 13:21:48 GMT
I haven't got a lot of time for Macron but somebody has got to try and talk some sense into the mad bastard that is Putin. At the end of the day, this war will end in one of three ways: through dialogue a solution can be found that, even though it might leave a nasty taste in the mouth for one or both, will stop the madness. 2: Somebody bumps off Putin. 3) We end up with a nuclear war. Nobody thought we would ever get peace in N. Ireland but the US managed to get both sides around the table and stopped it. When Kennedy faced down the Soviet Union in 1963, although it wasn't trumpeted by The Media, he had to agree to withdraw nuclear weapons from Turkey to stop WW3. If Putin survives assassination, he will need to save face before a solution is found. Equally, Zelensky may need to be prepared to relinquish some territory to appease the madman. OS.
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 7, 2022 13:49:00 GMT
I haven't got a lot of time for Macron but somebody has got to try and talk some sense into the mad bastard that is Putin. At the end of the day, this war will end in one of three ways: through dialogue a solution can be found that, even though it might leave a nasty taste in the mouth for one or both, will stop the madness. 2: Somebody bumps off Putin. 3) We end up with a nuclear war. Nobody thought we would ever get peace in N. Ireland but the US managed to get both sides around the table and stopped it. When Kennedy faced down the Soviet Union in 1963, although it wasn't trumpeted by The Media, he had to agree to withdraw nuclear weapons from Turkey to stop WW3. If Putin survives assassination, he will need to save face before a solution is found. Equally, Zelensky may need to be prepared to relinquish some territory to appease the madman. OS. I thought Ukraine might have to surrender Crimea and the bits of Donbas conquered in 2014 but I've changed my mind now. Putin escalated too far and needs to be kicked out of Ukraine. Otherwise the floodgates open all over the world. There will probably have to be some concessions. Putin and his cronies should be sent to the Hague and made to pay to rebuild Ukraine. In exchange for withdrawing we might have to accept that Putin gets to live a free life a bit longer and the only reparations come out of already frozen assets. Ukraine could also do some symbolic things like add some legal protections to the Russian language, agree not to join NATO for 5 years etc. Stuff Putin could sell at home.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 7, 2022 13:57:18 GMT
You won't be wishing him a Happy 70th Birthday today then I take it.
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