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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 2, 2022 21:21:48 GMT
A commitment to neutrality with respect to any military alliances, a change in internal policies around language that disadvantage Russian speakers, Crimea, they were all on the table recently in Istanbul. Even Zelensky himself knows they won't force Russia out of Ukranian territory, he's said as much......... We don't know the full details of the offer but it sounds like Russia also demanded "demilitarisation", the occupation of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts and allowing Russia to control Ukrainian politics. Would you have made those? whether I would have made that concession or not, that will happen at some point. In fact arguably it has been happening in Donetsk since 2014 and the advent of the DPR........
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Post by mtrstudent on Aug 2, 2022 21:34:08 GMT
We don't know the full details of the offer but it sounds like Russia also demanded "demilitarisation", the occupation of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts and allowing Russia to control Ukrainian politics. Would you have made those? whether I would have made that concession or not, that will happen at some point. In fact arguably it has been happening in Donetsk since 2014 and the advent of the DPR........ You expect Ukraine to accept: 1) Russian control of Donetsk and Luhansk 2) the dismantling of Ukraine's military 3) Russian control of its politics
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 2, 2022 21:36:49 GMT
whether I would have made that concession or not, that will happen at some point. In fact arguably it has been happening in Donetsk since 2014 and the advent of the DPR........ You expect Ukraine to accept: 1) Russian control of Donetsk and Luhansk 2) the dismantling of Ukraine's military 3) Russian control of its politics I don't expect any of it. I'm saying that some of the aforementioned concessions will happen, the question is when and how many people will die in the meantime..........
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 2, 2022 21:42:54 GMT
That's not how they see it.
They can (with the help of the West) attempt to repel the Russians by defending their country.
So you don't want them to surrender but instead, you want them to .... ?
I want them to drive Russia back over the border and reclaim their territory, but it’s not happening. At some point they will have to get round the negotiating table whether they like it or not. Reclaiming the whole of Crimea and the Donbas region is simply pie in the sky, there will have to be concessions unfortunately……..
Do you think Putin is going to be interested in negotiating in good faith, if Urkaine lays down it's weapons (suppled by the West) and says ... hey mate let's try and sort this out over a cup of tea?
The only chance they've got of getting round the negatiating table and having a decent hand to play, is if they stand up to Putin and he ultimately finds himself in a position where he has no other choice but to negotiate, it really is incredibly naive to think that a bully like Putin will understand 'negotiating' in any other terms.
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Post by mtrstudent on Aug 2, 2022 21:51:33 GMT
You expect Ukraine to accept: 1) Russian control of Donetsk and Luhansk 2) the dismantling of Ukraine's military 3) Russian control of its politics I don't expect any of it. I'm saying that some of the aforementioned concessions will happen, the question is when and how many people will die in the meantime.......... Ah gotcha. It sounds like Russia was demanding all of those things before. So by fighting on, Ukraine won't have to concede as much. IMO there's also the demilitarisation of Russia to consider. If Ukraine had conceded earlier, Russia would just have come back for more in a few years anyway and the same argument would apply. Russia's military is now weaker and Ukraine's is now stronger, and those trends look solid. Which is why Russia is so desperately squealing for Ukraine to give everything up.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 2, 2022 22:01:26 GMT
I want them to drive Russia back over the border and reclaim their territory, but it’s not happening. At some point they will have to get round the negotiating table whether they like it or not. Reclaiming the whole of Crimea and the Donbas region is simply pie in the sky, there will have to be concessions unfortunately……..
Do you think Putin is going to be interested in negotiating in good faith, if Urkaine lays down it's weapons (suppled by the West) and says ... hey mate let's try and sort this out over a cup of tea?
The only chance they've got of getting round the negatiating table and having a decent hand to play, is if they stand up to Putin and he ultimately finds himself in a position where he has no other choice but to negotiate, it really is incredibly naive to think that a bully like Putin will understand 'negotiating' in any other terms.
Putin will have his red lines but I certainly don't think they're as "extreme" as some are making out (annexing the whole of Ukraine and beyond), I'm not saying he wouldn't take it if the opportunity was handed to him but I still believe he would accept the Donbas region and Crimean Corridor. That's not going to be palatable for many but ultimately that's what I believe will happen........
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 2, 2022 22:18:56 GMT
Do you think Putin is going to be interested in negotiating in good faith, if Urkaine lays down it's weapons (suppled by the West) and says ... hey mate let's try and sort this out over a cup of tea?
The only chance they've got of getting round the negatiating table and having a decent hand to play, is if they stand up to Putin and he ultimately finds himself in a position where he has no other choice but to negotiate, it really is incredibly naive to think that a bully like Putin will understand 'negotiating' in any other terms.
Putin will have his red lines but I certainly don't think they're as "extreme" as some are making out (annexing the whole of Ukraine and beyond), I'm not saying he wouldn't take it if the opportunity was handed to him but I still believe he would accept the Donbas region and Crimean Corridor. That's not going to be palatable for many but ultimately that's what I believe will happen........
Wishful thinking on your part, or based on ... ?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 2, 2022 22:30:42 GMT
Putin will have his red lines but I certainly don't think they're as "extreme" as some are making out (annexing the whole of Ukraine and beyond), I'm not saying he wouldn't take it if the opportunity was handed to him but I still believe he would accept the Donbas region and Crimean Corridor. That's not going to be palatable for many but ultimately that's what I believe will happen........
Wishful thinking on your part, or based on ... ?
My belief is that Putin has two minimum aims, one is to secure the aforementioned regions, the other is that what remains of Ukraine becomes a neutral state, both militarily and economically (in laymans terms no EU or NATO membership). He will take more if the opportunity arises, he will settle for that (dressed up as the liberation of Ethnic Russians back home). It is an opinion based on our previous dealings with Putin, and our unwillingness to see the job through as shown in recent conflicts and the current state of play in those hotspots. I hope I'm wrong. I think I've said all I can say without repeating myself so I'll bid you goodnight.........
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Aug 3, 2022 0:15:53 GMT
I don't expect any of it. I'm saying that some of the aforementioned concessions will happen, the question is when and how many people will die in the meantime.......... Ah gotcha. It sounds like Russia was demanding all of those things before. So by fighting on, Ukraine won't have to concede as much. IMO there's also the demilitarisation of Russia to consider. If Ukraine had conceded earlier, Russia would just have come back for more in a few years anyway and the same argument would apply. Russia's military is now weaker and Ukraine's is now stronger, and those trends look solid. Which is why Russia is so desperately squealing for Ukraine to give everything up. You haven't a clue
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 3, 2022 6:56:10 GMT
Wishful thinking on your part, or based on ... ?
My belief is that Putin has two minimum aims, one is to secure the aforementioned regions, the other is that what remains of Ukraine becomes a neutral state, both militarily and economically (in laymans terms no EU or NATO membership). He will take more if the opportunity arises, he will settle for that (dressed up as the liberation of Ethnic Russians back home). It is an opinion based on our previous dealings with Putin, and our unwillingness to see the job through as shown in recent conflicts and the current state of play in those hotspots. I hope I'm wrong. I think I've said all I can say without repeating myself so I'll bid you goodnight......... His minimum aim, in the current war, is Ukraine becomes a client state. Let’s not kid ourselves about Putin. He’s as dictator in the mould of Hitler and Stalin. Kowtowing to the fucker just encourages him to keep going. You are right in that the West’s previous dealings with Putin have been indulgent and supine whether that’s been in his previous military excursions, economic relationship (gas to Germany or cash into the City of London) or his penchant for assassinating people on the streets of Britain. And look where that’s taken us. Putin ain’t stopping at the Donbas. And he ain’t stopping at Ukraine come to that. Unless someone stops him. Which is what is happening now. It might not work, but conceding to Putin now just means more of the same in the future. Which is why he needs to be defeated.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 3, 2022 7:07:11 GMT
My belief is that Putin has two minimum aims, one is to secure the aforementioned regions, the other is that what remains of Ukraine becomes a neutral state, both militarily and economically (in laymans terms no EU or NATO membership). He will take more if the opportunity arises, he will settle for that (dressed up as the liberation of Ethnic Russians back home). It is an opinion based on our previous dealings with Putin, and our unwillingness to see the job through as shown in recent conflicts and the current state of play in those hotspots. I hope I'm wrong. I think I've said all I can say without repeating myself so I'll bid you goodnight......... His minimum aim, in the current war, is Ukraine becomes a client state. Let’s not kid ourselves about Putin. He’s as dictator in the mould of Hitler and Stalin. Kowtowing to the fucker just encourages him to keep going. You are right in that the West’s previous dealings with Putin have been indulgent and supine whether that’s been in his previous military excursions, economic relationship (gas to Germany or cash into the City of London) or his penchant for assassinating people on the streets of Britain. And look where that’s taken us. Putin ain’t stopping at the Donbas. And he ain’t stopping at Ukraine come to that. Unless someone stops him. Which is what is happening now. It might not work, but conceding to Putin now just means more of the same in the future. Which is why he needs to be defeated. He'd love to take the whole of Ukraine and beyond I have no doubt, but militarily they just haven't got the capacity to do that and whilst Putin is an unhinged sociopath he's not daft either......
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 3, 2022 8:06:10 GMT
His minimum aim, in the current war, is Ukraine becomes a client state. Let’s not kid ourselves about Putin. He’s as dictator in the mould of Hitler and Stalin. Kowtowing to the fucker just encourages him to keep going. You are right in that the West’s previous dealings with Putin have been indulgent and supine whether that’s been in his previous military excursions, economic relationship (gas to Germany or cash into the City of London) or his penchant for assassinating people on the streets of Britain. And look where that’s taken us. Putin ain’t stopping at the Donbas. And he ain’t stopping at Ukraine come to that. Unless someone stops him. Which is what is happening now. It might not work, but conceding to Putin now just means more of the same in the future. Which is why he needs to be defeated. He'd love to take the whole of Ukraine and beyond I have no doubt, but militarily they just haven't got the capacity to do that and whilst Putin is an unhinged sociopath he's not daft either...... It’s not a question of daft or not. It’s one of intent. And the intent is still there. He will return to Ukraine when he is ready. Possibly with different tactics. Certainly when he is better equipped. But he will be back. The question is what might make him change his intent. I suspect a defeat is the only thing. It might not be a comprehensive defeat, but a defeat of some scale might do the trick. So Ukraine has the motivation to continue to fight, because they know that the alternative is subjugation under Moscow and they know what that means. They’ve been there before.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 3, 2022 8:11:08 GMT
He'd love to take the whole of Ukraine and beyond I have no doubt, but militarily they just haven't got the capacity to do that and whilst Putin is an unhinged sociopath he's not daft either...... It’s not a question of daft or not. It’s one of intent. And the intent is still there. He will return to Ukraine when he is ready. Possibly with different tactics. Certainly when he is better equipped. But he will be back. The question is what might make him change his intent. I suspect a defeat is the only thing. It might not be a comprehensive defeat, but a defeat of some scale might do the trick. So Ukraine has the motivation to continue to fight, because they know that the alternative is subjugation under Moscow and they know what that means. They’ve been there before. Yep they were there in 2014. And the world didn't even bat an eyelid..........
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 3, 2022 8:22:10 GMT
It’s not a question of daft or not. It’s one of intent. And the intent is still there. He will return to Ukraine when he is ready. Possibly with different tactics. Certainly when he is better equipped. But he will be back. The question is what might make him change his intent. I suspect a defeat is the only thing. It might not be a comprehensive defeat, but a defeat of some scale might do the trick. So Ukraine has the motivation to continue to fight, because they know that the alternative is subjugation under Moscow and they know what that means. They’ve been there before. Yep they were there in 2014. And the world didn't even bat an eyelid.......... Not quite true. Because 2014 was when the West finally accepted what Putin is, as evidenced by the wave of sanctions that kicked in. Perhaps the biggest example of the change in attitude was the decision to finally hold a public inquiry into the 2006 murder of Alexander Litvinenko which had been put off by both Blair and Cameron who were busy palling up with Putin and didn’t want to rock the boat. (And if you want to know how evil Putin is, check out why Litvinenko was killed). Btw, the response of the UK authorities to the murder of Litvinenko and the Salisbury poisoning is a good indicator of the change in approach to Russia. Of course, these changes in approach did nothing to change Putin’s intent. Which is a good indicator of why concession doesn’t work with Putin, as it didn’t with his contemporaries Hitler and Stalin.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 3, 2022 8:55:09 GMT
Yep they were there in 2014. And the world didn't even bat an eyelid.......... Not quite true. Because 2014 was when the West finally accepted what Putin is, as evidenced by the wave of sanctions that kicked in. Perhaps the biggest example of the change in attitude was the decision to finally hold a public inquiry into the 2006 murder of Alexander Litvinenko which had been put off by both Blair and Cameron who were busy palling up with Putin and didn’t want to rock the boat. (And if you want to know how evil Putin is, check out why Litvinenko was killed). Btw, the response of the UK authorities to the murder of Litvinenko and the Salisbury poisoning is a good indicator of the change in approach to Russia. Of course, these changes in approach did nothing to change Putin’s intent. Which is a good indicator of why concession doesn’t work with Putin, as it didn’t with his contemporaries Hitler and Stalin. They may have accepted it, but Russian money continued to flood into the City of London and surrounding areas. And those who lived in the Crimea unfortunately didn't get offered sanctuary, no one on Twitter was changing their bio to a Ukranian flag in solidarity. It was barely newsworthy. And what happened to Litvinenko was horrendous, what happened to Jamal Khashoggi equally so. An evil tyrant one day, someone worth holding our noses and doing business with the next. If nothing else I hope it's a lesson for the next few governments irrespective of their politics........
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 3, 2022 10:54:17 GMT
Not quite true. Because 2014 was when the West finally accepted what Putin is, as evidenced by the wave of sanctions that kicked in. Perhaps the biggest example of the change in attitude was the decision to finally hold a public inquiry into the 2006 murder of Alexander Litvinenko which had been put off by both Blair and Cameron who were busy palling up with Putin and didn’t want to rock the boat. (And if you want to know how evil Putin is, check out why Litvinenko was killed). Btw, the response of the UK authorities to the murder of Litvinenko and the Salisbury poisoning is a good indicator of the change in approach to Russia. Of course, these changes in approach did nothing to change Putin’s intent. Which is a good indicator of why concession doesn’t work with Putin, as it didn’t with his contemporaries Hitler and Stalin. They may have accepted it, but Russian money continued to flood into the City of London and surrounding areas. And those who lived in the Crimea unfortunately didn't get offered sanctuary, no one on Twitter was changing their bio to a Ukranian flag in solidarity. It was barely newsworthy. And what happened to Litvinenko was horrendous, what happened to Jamal Khashoggi equally so. An evil tyrant one day, someone worth holding our noses and doing business with the next. If nothing else I hope it's a lesson for the next few governments irrespective of their politics........ There is a huge difference between Litvinenko and Khashoggi - at least as far as I am aware. Khashoggi was a one off incident. Litvinenko is part of a series of assassinations Putin has carried out inside Russia and beyond including 14 in the UK. State sponsored murder is a key component of Putin’s method of government. And something he deploys frequently and carelessly. And yes, the UK, with various governments has looked the other way. It seems we’ve now learned a lesson on Putin. Let’s hope we remember it when we come across other evil leaders.
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Post by mtrstudent on Aug 3, 2022 18:42:24 GMT
Claimed to be a new Russian ammo supply hit. Dunno if this is true but there have been at least a dozen other ones just like this with videos and satellite images proving them.
Just look at all those rockets going off prematurely and exploding like fireworks instead of slaughtering innocents.
Lovely.
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Post by mtrstudent on Aug 3, 2022 18:49:03 GMT
He'd love to take the whole of Ukraine and beyond I have no doubt, but militarily they just haven't got the capacity to do that and whilst Putin is an unhinged sociopath he's not daft either...... It sounds like you've basically written off the occupied parts of Ukraine and also think the West will fold in our support. I reckon it could work out like you say, but it's just not guaranteed. If Trumpists are defeated in US elections and Europe makes it through the winter united then there's a great shot Ukraine will get what it needs to win. Ukraine has something like a 50:50 chance IMO and that's worth fighting for. Hell, even if you're right then wouldn't you agree it makes the most sense to flood Ukraine with weapons and ammo anyway? Making Ukraine stronger and Russia weaker is the safest protection against Russian violence in future.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 3, 2022 20:27:13 GMT
Claimed to be a new Russian ammo supply hit. Dunno if this is true but there have been at least a dozen other ones just like this with videos and satellite images proving them. Just look at all those rockets going off prematurely and exploding like fireworks instead of slaughtering innocents. Lovely. I think this is the same one? A 40 car train.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 3, 2022 20:30:36 GMT
They may have accepted it, but Russian money continued to flood into the City of London and surrounding areas. And those who lived in the Crimea unfortunately didn't get offered sanctuary, no one on Twitter was changing their bio to a Ukranian flag in solidarity. It was barely newsworthy. And what happened to Litvinenko was horrendous, what happened to Jamal Khashoggi equally so. An evil tyrant one day, someone worth holding our noses and doing business with the next. If nothing else I hope it's a lesson for the next few governments irrespective of their politics........ There is a huge difference between Litvinenko and Khashoggi - at least as far as I am aware. Khashoggi was a one off incident. Litvinenko is part of a series of assassinations Putin has carried out inside Russia and beyond including 14 in the UK. State sponsored murder is a key component of Putin’s method of government. And something he deploys frequently and carelessly. And yes, the UK, with various governments has looked the other way. It seems we’ve now learned a lesson on Putin. Let’s hope we remember it when we come across other evil leaders. They’re still at it The appeasement of Russia from some quarters is a bit sickening.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Aug 3, 2022 20:44:27 GMT
There is a huge difference between Litvinenko and Khashoggi - at least as far as I am aware. Khashoggi was a one off incident. Litvinenko is part of a series of assassinations Putin has carried out inside Russia and beyond including 14 in the UK. State sponsored murder is a key component of Putin’s method of government. And something he deploys frequently and carelessly. And yes, the UK, with various governments has looked the other way. It seems we’ve now learned a lesson on Putin. Let’s hope we remember it when we come across other evil leaders. They’re still at it The appeasement of Russia from some quarters is a bit sickening. Not helped by clowns like Nancy Pelosi, Biden and Von Der Liar running the west. Its a tragic state of affairs all round.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 3, 2022 20:45:51 GMT
They’re still at it The appeasement of Russia from some quarters is a bit sickening. Not helped by clowns like Nancy Pelosi, Biden and Von Der Liar running the west. Its a tragic state of affairs all round. Biden has been excellent for Ukraine. Trump set the ground work for this.
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Post by mtrstudent on Aug 3, 2022 21:03:02 GMT
Claimed to be a new Russian ammo supply hit. Dunno if this is true but there have been at least a dozen other ones just like this with videos and satellite images proving them. Just look at all those rockets going off prematurely and exploding like fireworks instead of slaughtering innocents. Lovely. I think this is the same one? A 40 car train. Might be the same one, I try not to get too excited each time but it's hard not to!
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Aug 3, 2022 21:04:30 GMT
Not helped by clowns like Nancy Pelosi, Biden and Von Der Liar running the west. Its a tragic state of affairs all round. Biden has been excellent for Ukraine. Trump set the ground work for this. Why has Biden been excellent for Ukraine? Why did Trump set the groundwork for this?
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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 3, 2022 21:05:24 GMT
Not helped by clowns like Nancy Pelosi, Biden and Von Der Liar running the west. Its a tragic state of affairs all round. Biden has been excellent for Ukraine. Trump set the ground work for this. Bidens been toss . It wouldn't of happened if Trump was still in charge
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 3, 2022 21:18:13 GMT
Biden has been excellent for Ukraine. Trump set the ground work for this. Why has Biden been excellent for Ukraine? Why did Trump set the groundwork for this? Under Biden they’ve give Ukraine 8.8bn worth of military aid. Trump was trying to use Ukraine as part of scandal and even now says we shouldn’t back them!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 3, 2022 21:19:07 GMT
Biden has been excellent for Ukraine. Trump set the ground work for this. Bidens been toss . It wouldn't of happened if Trump was still in charge 😂😂😂
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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 3, 2022 22:11:00 GMT
Why has Biden been excellent for Ukraine? Why did Trump set the groundwork for this? Under Biden they’ve give Ukraine 8.8bn worth of military aid. Trump was trying to use Ukraine as part of scandal and even now says we shouldn’t back them! 😂😂😂
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Post by mtrstudent on Aug 4, 2022 5:28:59 GMT
Claimed to be a new Russian ammo supply hit. Dunno if this is true but there have been at least a dozen other ones just like this with videos and satellite images proving them. Just look at all those rockets going off prematurely and exploding like fireworks instead of slaughtering innocents. Lovely. I think this is the same one? A 40 car train. Another claimed new one is here:
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 4, 2022 7:56:27 GMT
Ukraine is seeking an opportunity to speak “directly” with Chinese leader Xi Jinping to help end its war with Russia, according to reports this morning. Be interesting to see China's response if this is the case with everything they have going on at the moment.......
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