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Post by mtrstudent on Dec 20, 2022 17:04:32 GMT
Rail lines and artillery at the least. The whole main supply rail line is in range of HIMARS. Luka could get kicked out of power and Ukraine would have a new ally. Got to be ripe for regime collapse, an expensive failing war could just get that going NATO, the EU need to have plans ready to facilitate if they can I don't think there's a big chance of it happening but how amazing would it be if Belarusians could be free as well? They really did try to free themselves back in 2020. I like the free Belarus flag too.
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Post by Northy on Dec 20, 2022 17:07:09 GMT
If Belarus does join this war then their cities and infrastructure should become legitimate targets for UKR. Lukashenko's tenure as President of Belarus is already crumbling and it could become the final act if they join this war for him to be deposed. He knows he's been treading a rocky path up to yet so he would have to be crazy to take his assistance to Russia any further. It may even be that NATO would join in against Belarus. They don't have nukes as backup to threaten anyone with. OS. A lot of missiles right onto his parliament building would help.
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Post by mtrstudent on Dec 20, 2022 23:05:02 GMT
Apparently not too long ago the Russians shot down one of their own attack helis.
If confirmed it's great news because the Ka-52 is very expensive, and funny news because Ukraine doesn't use Ka-52s so shooting one down was a proper special moment for the Russian AA.
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Post by mtrstudent on Dec 21, 2022 18:42:55 GMT
This tweet is about the city limits of Bakhmut. It's a bit like pushing an enemy out of Stoke & Hanley but they're still in Longton and Tunstall.
Russia now has to sacrifice more just to get back to where it was though. So a win for Ukraine!
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 21, 2022 19:14:33 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Dec 21, 2022 19:17:28 GMT
It's a stupid argument from Scholz. Saw polling saying there's plenty of public support to send tanks. The Greens who you'd think of as all fluffy were the most pro-tank. I think only the far right were opposed.
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Post by Gods on Dec 21, 2022 21:48:54 GMT
Good speech from Biden with Zelensky.
Have to hope the Republicans do not get in to power.
If US support for Ukraine ends then Ukraine will fall.
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Post by mtrstudent on Dec 22, 2022 1:42:40 GMT
Morocco to send 100 T-72 tanks to UkraineA brilliant world cup performance and now this? I'm feeling pretty warm about Morocco right now. These might be the same tanks announced in a US-Netherlands funding deal last month, but I hope they're extra.
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Post by dirtclod on Dec 22, 2022 2:54:50 GMT
Morocco to send 100 T-72 tanks to UkraineA brilliant world cup performance and now this? I'm feeling pretty warm about Morocco right now. These might be the same tanks announced in a US-Netherlands funding deal last month, but I hope they're extra. The Marrekesh Express Delivers again! Good on ya Morocco! Listen - this whole "german tanks to Ukraine" really isn't what UKR needs right now. You must ALSO have the INFRASTRUCTURE that goes with a totally different tank firing a totally different set of rounds, requiring totally different crew training than what you currently have in inventory. Plus, these things have to be maintained - you wouldn't believe how much is involved with that, especially in the field, during a war. You can't go running ammo up to them in a Volkswagen Microbus either, no matter how many peace signs & flowers (Possibly MILLS OUT) are painted on the side Ukraine is a former Soviet state and their equipment comes from that legacy. Sure, it'd be a good idea to START converting them over to western weapons, but they have to get through the WINTER first! But sending them T-72's immediately? Now THAT's useful. If the West wants to help - facilitate/help the delivery of Russian/Soviet equipment from any number of these nations who have them but can't just afford to give away their military, even though they support Ukraine. Facilitate the delivery of mobile long-range artillery, ammo, food, uniforms, medical equipment, whatever else UKR needs. I think there ARE several doing this as we speak, but don't send a totally foreign made piece of equipment, firing NATO rounds and needing special support vehicles not in the UKR inventory either. You might as well send Hans and Franz along WITH the tank to operate it. (They can qualify to play on your football team as well for their service). So I think long-term, maybe Leopards but short-term - let's find a way to get some of this excess Soviet-era equipment, ammo and parts scattered all over the world to Ukraine. The stuff is ALL over the place! Wouldn't be surprised if that kid across the street has a T-72 in his garage. (I already suspect him of having a suitcase nuke, the evil little dwarf) But I feel as though I'm preaching to the choir, because I know that many individuals in the UK have gone over there in person and that takes guts. We've got some crazy 'Mericans over there too, but it doesn't sound like as many "per-capita." as the UK. Meanwhile I earnestly continue to hope and pray for Ukraine. I can't even begin to understand how difficult things are for them, but they are an amazing lot. Edit: Oh and the footage of that tank taking out that T-72? Looks totally legit to me. It happens so quick - Bang/Clack (Shell impacting target) is nearly simultaneous. That's a big bad smoothbore gun that belches death lickety-split. The ATGM (Guided Round) that the newer Russian tanks fire take only slightly longer to hit a target at 5000 meters. I've seen footage of those things hitting targets hard to see with the naked eye. (Which really isn't a surprise when you see how accurate ATGMs fired off a shoulder are when aimed at a tank) But what shocks you is how fast it gets there - definitely no time to duck, move, reverse or yell OH SHIT! It's like a Charlie Adam 65-yard blast to the net. (Had to work that one in there)
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Post by Marc01 on Dec 22, 2022 19:50:47 GMT
Russia’s fantastic propaganda machine strikes again: An indirect war is obviously more serious than a direct war by a country that started and continues a war and, thereby, definitely doesn’t want peace…. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64066584
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Post by questionable on Dec 23, 2022 10:48:45 GMT
I understand the State owned TV/Press but in this day and age surely nobody is that stupid or naive enough in Russia to believe the absolute bull shit that these idiots come out with.
It’s scary, mind in saying this PM Question Time is not far behind.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 23, 2022 19:38:46 GMT
Patriot missile systems to Ukraine seems to be seriously overhyped and expensive to maintain and use (3-4 mil a missile)
Also they are relatively old systems and they didn’t provide the Saudis much protection against drones and cheap missiles lobbed by the Houthi’s.
This looks like it’s gonna be a very long drawn out conflict.
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Post by Gods on Dec 23, 2022 19:48:35 GMT
Patriot missile systems to Ukraine seems to be seriously overhyped and expensive to maintain and use (3-4 mil a missile) Also they are relatively old systems and they didn’t provide the Saudis much protection against drones and cheap missiles lobbed by the Houthi’s. This looks like it’s gonna be a very long drawn out conflict. Yep, Putin will never stop. We have to hope Western support for Ukraine continues of even increases, if it doesn't I think Ukraine will fall.
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Post by mtrstudent on Dec 23, 2022 20:40:34 GMT
Patriot missile systems to Ukraine seems to be seriously overhyped and expensive to maintain and use (3-4 mil a missile) Also they are relatively old systems and they didn’t provide the Saudis much protection against drones and cheap missiles lobbed by the Houthi’s. This looks like it’s gonna be a very long drawn out conflict. It looks like they can stop ballistic missiles. Ukraine doesn't have anything else for that and Russia's Iskanders are also listed at ~$3m each so maybe it makes sense? Especially if Russia starts sending like 10 Iskanders at a target instead of one to guarantee a hit. Also maybe Ukraine is running low on Buk and S-300 missiles? Or wants to free those up to cover counteroffensives. But I basically agree with you - it looks overhyped to me.
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Post by mtrstudent on Dec 23, 2022 20:43:22 GMT
Patriot missile systems to Ukraine seems to be seriously overhyped and expensive to maintain and use (3-4 mil a missile) Also they are relatively old systems and they didn’t provide the Saudis much protection against drones and cheap missiles lobbed by the Houthi’s. This looks like it’s gonna be a very long drawn out conflict. Yep, Putin will never stop. We have to hope Western support Ukraine support continues of even increases, if it doesn't I think Ukraine will fall. House just passed $45 bn for Ukraine. The new Congress has a republican house so they'll probably do something like shut the government down this time next year to score political points. And I wouldn't be surprised if they demand something really painful from the democrats to get support for Ukraine. Like cut off millions of poor people from healthcare or something. There's time for Europe to step up and another 2 years with a pro-Democracy, anti-Putin guy in the White House at least.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 23, 2022 21:25:10 GMT
Patriot missile systems to Ukraine seems to be seriously overhyped and expensive to maintain and use (3-4 mil a missile) Also they are relatively old systems and they didn’t provide the Saudis much protection against drones and cheap missiles lobbed by the Houthi’s. This looks like it’s gonna be a very long drawn out conflict. It looks like they can stop ballistic missiles. Ukraine doesn't have anything else for that and Russia's Iskanders are also listed at ~$3m each so maybe it makes sense? Especially if Russia starts sending like 10 Iskanders at a target instead of one to guarantee a hit. Also maybe Ukraine is running low on Buk and S-300 missiles? Or wants to free those up to cover counteroffensives. But I basically agree with you - it looks overhyped to me. Can’t S-300’s intercept ballistic missiles?
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Post by mtrstudent on Dec 23, 2022 21:37:39 GMT
It looks like they can stop ballistic missiles. Ukraine doesn't have anything else for that and Russia's Iskanders are also listed at ~$3m each so maybe it makes sense? Especially if Russia starts sending like 10 Iskanders at a target instead of one to guarantee a hit. Also maybe Ukraine is running low on Buk and S-300 missiles? Or wants to free those up to cover counteroffensives. But I basically agree with you - it looks overhyped to me. Can’t S-300’s intercept ballistic missiles? Adverts say S-300 does anti-ballistic missile duty but the Ukrainians I saw were warning theirs are no good against some. If I see it again I'll share the link. There are definitely videos of what look like S-300 (BIG air burst) hitting cruise missiles but they were saying they've really struggled with ballistics like some Iskanders. It could be that Ukraine's S-300s are the wrong version for ballistics?
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Post by dirtclod on Dec 23, 2022 21:53:13 GMT
Informative thread, as you guys know your missiles! Agree that Patriot is showing its age and expensive to maintain. I just hope our (US) government never pulls support but the Republicans are against it, which enrages me. Cut back on a carrier group for a year then ffs. Believe me, I work in the defense industry and we can afford it.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 23, 2022 23:07:50 GMT
Can’t S-300’s intercept ballistic missiles? Adverts say S-300 does anti-ballistic missile duty but the Ukrainians I saw were warning theirs are no good against some. If I see it again I'll share the link. There are definitely videos of what look like S-300 (BIG air burst) hitting cruise missiles but they were saying they've really struggled with ballistics like some Iskanders. It could be that Ukraine's S-300s are the wrong version for ballistics? Fair enough I thought I’d read that the S-300/400 had a longer range/payload than Patriots and was also capable against ballistic missiles
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 24, 2022 0:13:25 GMT
Patriot missile systems to Ukraine seems to be seriously overhyped and expensive to maintain and use (3-4 mil a missile) Also they are relatively old systems and they didn’t provide the Saudis much protection against drones and cheap missiles lobbed by the Houthi’s. This looks like it’s gonna be a very long drawn out conflict. Yet Israel use them to good effect. For cruise missiles they will be very useful.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 24, 2022 0:15:16 GMT
Can’t S-300’s intercept ballistic missiles? Adverts say S-300 does anti-ballistic missile duty but the Ukrainians I saw were warning theirs are no good against some. If I see it again I'll share the link. There are definitely videos of what look like S-300 (BIG air burst) hitting cruise missiles but they were saying they've really struggled with ballistics like some Iskanders. It could be that Ukraine's S-300s are the wrong version for ballistics? Hasn’t this war just shown like most things Russian, they’re a bit shit?
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 24, 2022 0:22:23 GMT
Patriot missile systems to Ukraine seems to be seriously overhyped and expensive to maintain and use (3-4 mil a missile) Also they are relatively old systems and they didn’t provide the Saudis much protection against drones and cheap missiles lobbed by the Houthi’s. This looks like it’s gonna be a very long drawn out conflict. Yet Israel use them to good effect. For cruise missiles they will be very useful. Not really, the claimed success rate was definitely less than 50%
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 24, 2022 0:23:21 GMT
Yet Israel use them to good effect. For cruise missiles they will be very useful. Not really, the claimed success rate was definitely less than 50% Combined with other systems that’s useful.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 24, 2022 0:28:31 GMT
Not really, the claimed success rate was definitely less than 50% Combined with other systems that’s useful. Not really, it was virtually useless for the Saudis and if you do some looking you should find that even that 50% figure has been exaggerated. It’s an expensive flop for me.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 24, 2022 0:30:25 GMT
Combined with other systems that’s useful. Not really, it was virtually useless for the Saudis and if you do some looking you should find that even that 50% figure has been exaggerated. It’s an expensive flop for me. It is. The Israelis use it well and unlike the Saudi’s they know how to fight. Yet you big the S300 up that has been found wanting in this war 😂
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Post by mtrstudent on Dec 24, 2022 0:47:26 GMT
Not really, it was virtually useless for the Saudis and if you do some looking you should find that even that 50% figure has been exaggerated. It’s an expensive flop for me. It is. The Israelis use it well and unlike the Saudi’s they know how to fight. Yet you big the S300 up that has been found wanting in this war 😂 I can't find any detailed numbers but the Russians probably believe the S-300 is working well enough at its main job? They're not sending in any high altitude jet attacks that we've seen. Everyone seems to be struggling with the smaller/cheaper drones and ballistic missiles.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 24, 2022 0:50:48 GMT
It is. The Israelis use it well and unlike the Saudi’s they know how to fight. Yet you big the S300 up that has been found wanting in this war 😂 I can't find any detailed numbers but the Russians probably believe the S-300 is working well enough at its main job? They're not sending in any high altitude jet attacks that we've seen. Everyone seems to be struggling with the smaller/cheaper drones and ballistic missiles. The Gerard’s seem to be the one for the drones. Good old fashioned(ish) AA gun. Which when you see them makes sense.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 24, 2022 0:52:33 GMT
Not really, it was virtually useless for the Saudis and if you do some looking you should find that even that 50% figure has been exaggerated. It’s an expensive flop for me. It is. The Israelis use it well and unlike the Saudi’s they know how to fight. Yet you big the S300 up that has been found wanting in this war 😂 Can you please post a link showing the efficiency of the Patriot system You haven’t a clue, a Patriot system needs specialist crews and each missile costs 3-4 mil. Do some research before giving it billy big bollocks on here
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 24, 2022 0:56:00 GMT
Not really, it was virtually useless for the Saudis and if you do some looking you should find that even that 50% figure has been exaggerated. It’s an expensive flop for me. It is. The Israelis use it well and unlike the Saudi’s they know how to fight. Yet you big the S300 up that has been found wanting in this war 😂 You’re also too dense to realise it was the Ukrainian S-300’s I was referring too
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 24, 2022 0:56:29 GMT
It is. The Israelis use it well and unlike the Saudi’s they know how to fight. Yet you big the S300 up that has been found wanting in this war 😂 Can you please post a link showing the efficiency of the Patriot system You haven’t a clue, a Patriot system needs specialist crews and each missile costs 3-4 mil. Do some research before giving it billy big bollocks on here Of course I don’t 😂🤦♂️ As I’ve said Israel use them to great effect. And I wouldn’t trust anything the Saudi’s with war. They’re a bit like us with the Championship. Throw money at it and think that’s enough. Like most Russian military equipment the s300 has been overrated by the west and it seems crazy to think the Patriot won’t be an upgrade and a fine addition to a network of defence that is already very capable and in very capable hands.
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