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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 21, 2022 13:16:00 GMT
Hopefully there will be some diplomatic solution worked out that avoids war. I wouldn't be surprised to see the eastern part of Ukraine which appears to be full of Russian separatists become subject to a referendum about their future. Putin would probably accept that for the time being as it allows him to present himself as acting on behalf of Russian interests in Ukraine without being the war-mongering despot the rest of the world would see him as. It also prevents punishing sanctions being applied. The Baltic states are in NATO so are effectively untouchable now, unless Putin really wants to trigger a genuine WW3. That weird area around Kaliningrad might be a potential trigger point. Ukraine missed the boat basically. If they were serious about looking west rather than east they had about 15 years from the fall of the Soviet empire to do so. Most of eastern Europe got it sorted quickly while Russia was trying to find its identity, but Ukraine was too slow and that's why we're where we are now. The only diplomatic solution worth a wank Is Russia allows the Ukrainian government to be in full charge within the borders of Ukraine If the West allow any annexation of Ukrainian land just to keep a few Germans warm this winter It will be a total disgrace
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Post by Gob Bluth on Feb 21, 2022 14:29:42 GMT
www.rt.com/russia/550123-ukraine-responds-claim-russia-soldiers-killed/The Russian Army claimed that a small reconnaissance unit crossed from Ukraine into Russia’s Rostov Region around 6am local time. Moscow said that when its forces were sent to confront the intruders, two Ukrainian armored infantry vehicles crossed into Russia as well. According to Moscow, both Ukrainian vehicles were destroyed and five service members were killed. There were no casualties among the Russian troops and border guards, Moscow said.
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Post by Northy on Feb 21, 2022 15:52:16 GMT
www.rt.com/russia/550123-ukraine-responds-claim-russia-soldiers-killed/The Russian Army claimed that a small reconnaissance unit crossed from Ukraine into Russia’s Rostov Region around 6am local time. Moscow said that when its forces were sent to confront the intruders, two Ukrainian armored infantry vehicles crossed into Russia as well. According to Moscow, both Ukrainian vehicles were destroyed and five service members were killed. There were no casualties among the Russian troops and border guards, Moscow said. HHmm, sounds similar to how the invasion of Poland was justified in 1939
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Post by superjw on Feb 21, 2022 16:22:56 GMT
All we are basically waiting for is for the pan to boil over, whoever it is that does that probably doesn't matter now.
I think as soon as it does, it will keep going
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Post by spitthedog on Feb 21, 2022 16:25:58 GMT
The only thing that is certain is that it is now impossible to know who to believe when it comes to this saga.
These are games being played out by both sides with very high stakes. Ukraine being used as a battering ram as it has for decades by both sides with no interest in the human cost in that territory.
The other thing to say is that this has not obviously come out the blue. Both sides have had so many opportunities to address potential conflict here and turned down the opportunities.
There is an agreement in place (Minsk 2) but its hardly mentioned interestingly.
The West is full of 'Go on then, have a go'. Seems like the West are really on their hands and knees begging the Russians to commit this suicidal act.
Why because they know that getting Russia to commit this suicide is probably the best way to weaken them. Again no interest in potential human cost from either side.
Both sides pushing each other to the edge. Of course it's scary. That's the whole idea and the way these states work.
Propaganda at the max! god knows what's going on in the background and what the short term strategies are.
One thing for sure, you cant believe a word that's coming out of either sides propaganda machines.
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Post by lordb on Feb 21, 2022 17:02:51 GMT
The only thing that is certain is that it is now impossible to know who to believe when it comes to this saga. These are games being played out by both sides with very high stakes. Ukraine being used as a battering ram as it has for decades by both sides with no interest in the human cost in that territory. The other thing to say is that this has not obviously come out the blue. Both sides have had so many opportunities to address potential conflict here and turned down the opportunities. There is an agreement in place (Minsk 2) but its hardly mentioned interestingly. The West is full of 'Go on then, have a go'. Seems like the West are really on their hands and knees begging the Russians to commit this suicidal act. Why because they know that getting Russia to commit this suicide is probably the best way to weaken them. Again no interest in potential human cost from either side. Both sides pushing each other to the edge. Of course it's scary. That's the whole idea and the way these states work. Propaganda at the max! god knows what's going on in the background and what the short term strategies are. One thing for sure, you cant believe a word that's coming out of either sides propaganda machines. interesting points however don't see that 'West are really on their hands and knees begging the Russians to commit this suicidal act' I think they are playing catch up, constantly reacting to Putins moves With the US having replaced the ultimate erratic/volatile & incredibly stupid President with a tired second rate old man the Russians probably see this as the best time to achieve a long term aim factor in Germany have a new untested Chancellor, the French are as distanced from the US as they have been since the 1960's (re Aukus) the UK increasingly irrelevant & with a lame duck PM what isnt being mentioned much is China China have interest in Ukraine & will not want that disrupted by war > what China & Russia re saying to each other is perhaps key?
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Post by Gob Bluth on Feb 21, 2022 17:24:34 GMT
Putin talking with his ministers about Ukraine with an apparent conclusion of 'we're all going to decide the fate of Ukraine today'.
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Post by questionable on Feb 21, 2022 18:05:45 GMT
The only thing that is certain is that it is now impossible to know who to believe when it comes to this saga. These are games being played out by both sides with very high stakes. Ukraine being used as a battering ram as it has for decades by both sides with no interest in the human cost in that territory. The other thing to say is that this has not obviously come out the blue. Both sides have had so many opportunities to address potential conflict here and turned down the opportunities. There is an agreement in place (Minsk 2) but its hardly mentioned interestingly. The West is full of 'Go on then, have a go'. Seems like the West are really on their hands and knees begging the Russians to commit this suicidal act. Why because they know that getting Russia to commit this suicide is probably the best way to weaken them. Again no interest in potential human cost from either side. Both sides pushing each other to the edge. Of course it's scary. That's the whole idea and the way these states work. Propaganda at the max! god knows what's going on in the background and what the short term strategies are. One thing for sure, you cant believe a word that's coming out of either sides propaganda machines. I read something recently where it alleged that 14,000 Ukrainians had been killed due to fighting in the very remote border areas, think the figures were from around 2001 to current day
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 18:13:23 GMT
The only thing that is certain is that it is now impossible to know who to believe when it comes to this saga. These are games being played out by both sides with very high stakes. Ukraine being used as a battering ram as it has for decades by both sides with no interest in the human cost in that territory. The other thing to say is that this has not obviously come out the blue. Both sides have had so many opportunities to address potential conflict here and turned down the opportunities. There is an agreement in place (Minsk 2) but its hardly mentioned interestingly. The West is full of 'Go on then, have a go'. Seems like the West are really on their hands and knees begging the Russians to commit this suicidal act. Why because they know that getting Russia to commit this suicide is probably the best way to weaken them. Again no interest in potential human cost from either side. Both sides pushing each other to the edge. Of course it's scary. That's the whole idea and the way these states work. Propaganda at the max! god knows what's going on in the background and what the short term strategies are. One thing for sure, you cant believe a word that's coming out of either sides propaganda machines. I read something recently where it alleged that 14,000 Ukrainians had been killed due to fighting in the very remote border areas, think the figures were from around 2001 to current day Since 2014, approx. 6,000 Russian separatists, around 5,000 Ukranian forces, 3,000 Civilians and 500 Russian forces so yes around that figure if all sources are to be believed. The UN have verified the civilian deaths......
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 18:14:45 GMT
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Post by hcstokie on Feb 21, 2022 18:23:37 GMT
War is good for business. It’s no wonder the west keeps fanning the flames when they are supplying arms to Ukraine. You just need to have a look at the stock prices of companies like Lockheed Martin and BAE to see why we want it to kick off.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 19:03:52 GMT
Putin has made his move it seems, be interesting to see what the response is………
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 21, 2022 19:32:03 GMT
Putin has made his move it seems, be interesting to see what the response is……… The response should be the rolling in of sanctions But I shan’t hold my breath that the West have the bollocks
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 19:36:24 GMT
Putin has made his move it seems, be interesting to see what the response is……… The response should be the rolling in of sanctions But I shan’t hold my breath that the West have the bollocks My gut feeling is that as long as Russia stay east of the Dnieper there will be a lot of posturing and noise but little action……
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Post by richie22 on Feb 21, 2022 19:38:18 GMT
Putin has made his move it seems, be interesting to see what the response is……… The response should be the rolling in of sanctions But I shan’t hold my breath that the West have the bollocks small skirmish , NATO will move probably this time next week, Boris will sound off about sanctions till he gets reminded the uk is infested with Russian money, putin will back down once nato rolls up .. as he wont want to stack body’s high … unfortunately it ll be a little bit of a mess for a wee while.
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Post by hcstokie on Feb 21, 2022 20:08:34 GMT
Putin has made his move it seems, be interesting to see what the response is……… The response should be the rolling in of sanctions But I shan’t hold my breath that the West have the bollocks Maybe continue with appeasement, that worked well in the past. He should have been held to account over Crimea!
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 21, 2022 20:21:54 GMT
The response should be the rolling in of sanctions But I shan’t hold my breath that the West have the bollocks Maybe continue with appeasement, that worked well in the past. He should have been held to account over Crimea! Totally agree NATO and western governments should hang there head in shame
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Feb 21, 2022 20:37:46 GMT
Putin's going to rapidly start losing diplomatic leverage if he continues to outright lie and ignore reality. This stuff about genocide and Ukraine "not being a true state" is totally unfounded and unhinged. He's completely losing the plot and Im starting to think for the first time he's actually going to invade.
Be fascinating to see legitimate Russian polling on Putin invading Ukraine. Clearly we will never see that but I imagine there are a lot of very angry, scared and bemused Russians both in Russia and in London right now.
No one of moral standing can support this madness.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Feb 21, 2022 20:44:19 GMT
Putin's going to rapidly start losing diplomatic leverage if he continues to outright lie and ignore reality. This stuff about genocide and Ukraine "not being a true state" is totally unfounded and unhinged. He's completely losing the plot and Im starting to think for the first time he's actually going to invade. Be fascinating to see legitimate Russian polling on Putin invading Ukraine. Clearly we will never see that but I imagine there are a lot of very angry, scared and bemused Russians both in Russia and in London right now. No one of moral standing can support this madness. How about wokeystokie?😉 He’s a Putin sympathiser don’t you know🤣
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Post by hcstokie on Feb 21, 2022 20:50:48 GMT
Putin's going to rapidly start losing diplomatic leverage if he continues to outright lie and ignore reality. This stuff about genocide and Ukraine "not being a true state" is totally unfounded and unhinged. He's completely losing the plot and Im starting to think for the first time he's actually going to invade. Be fascinating to see legitimate Russian polling on Putin invading Ukraine. Clearly we will never see that but I imagine there are a lot of very angry, scared and bemused Russians both in Russia and in London right now. No one of moral standing can support this madness. He will invade if we and others do not firmly put our foot down NOW. This is a precursor to legitimise an invasion. Send in the troops as peacekeepers, wait for Ukrainian resistance, then invade. The last few weeks have so many similarities with Hitler and the start of the Second World War it’s a real worry. If history taught us anything it should be that you do not keep negotiating with someone intent on expansion and war. At some point you need to draw a line in the sand, as uncomfortable as that truth may sound. The West cannot show weakness at this moment. It needs strong, decisive action otherwise he will do it again, and again, and again. Peace in our time anyone?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 21:02:40 GMT
Our media don’t do the nuance of conflict. The troops in Ukraine wearing gear and driving tanks with Nazi symbols all over them barely gets a mention either. The innocent Ukrainian people waiting in limbo should be the ones at the forefront of every diplomat and politicians mind, hopefully everyone can put their egos to one side and come up with a pragmatic solution……. Big Nige would sort this shit show out in an instant😉
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Feb 21, 2022 21:06:50 GMT
We need Gavin Williamson to put them straight.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Feb 21, 2022 21:08:31 GMT
Big Nige would sort this shit show out in an instant😉 Good old Nige, he’s always right😉 I must say the mask has slipped this week, firstly the the support of Putin followed by searching out Big Nigel’s best videos. You’ll be watching “Talking Pints” next. Thursday 8pm, don’t miss it👍🏻
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 21:15:29 GMT
Parallels with the 2008 Georgia conflict in which South Ossetia and Abkhazia were announced as independent by Russia and condemned by NATO and western powers (albeit on a smaller scale).
The UK pushed for a hard intervention then as well and were reigned in by France and Germany, let’s see if there’s a broader consensus this time……
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 21, 2022 21:17:15 GMT
Good old Nige, he’s always right😉 I must say the mask has slipped this week, firstly the the support of Putin followed by searching out Big Nigel’s best videos. You’ll be watching “Talking Pints” next. Thursday 8pm, don’t miss it👍🏻 I stumbled across it on Twitter. I think it’s Farage being accused of being a Putin supporter right now though in fairness he’ll just follow the highest bidder…….
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Post by lordb on Feb 21, 2022 21:18:57 GMT
Putin's going to rapidly start losing diplomatic leverage if he continues to outright lie and ignore reality. This stuff about genocide and Ukraine "not being a true state" is totally unfounded and unhinged. He's completely losing the plot and Im starting to think for the first time he's actually going to invade. Be fascinating to see legitimate Russian polling on Putin invading Ukraine. Clearly we will never see that but I imagine there are a lot of very angry, scared and bemused Russians both in Russia and in London right now. No one of moral standing can support this madness. He's consistently described Ukraine as not a state, not a country for years
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Post by lordb on Feb 21, 2022 21:19:44 GMT
Putin's going to rapidly start losing diplomatic leverage if he continues to outright lie and ignore reality. This stuff about genocide and Ukraine "not being a true state" is totally unfounded and unhinged. He's completely losing the plot and Im starting to think for the first time he's actually going to invade. Be fascinating to see legitimate Russian polling on Putin invading Ukraine. Clearly we will never see that but I imagine there are a lot of very angry, scared and bemused Russians both in Russia and in London right now. No one of moral standing can support this madness. He will invade if we and others do not firmly put our foot down NOW. This is a precursor to legitimise an invasion. Send in the troops as peacekeepers, wait for Ukrainian resistance, then invade. The last few weeks have so many similarities with Hitler and the start of the Second World War it’s a real worry. If history taught us anything it should be that you do not keep negotiating with someone intent on expansion and war. At some point you need to draw a line in the sand, as uncomfortable as that truth may sound. The West cannot show weakness at this moment. It needs strong, decisive action otherwise he will do it again, and again, and again. Peace in our time anyone? What does putting our foot down look like?
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 21, 2022 21:19:45 GMT
Putin has made his move it seems, be interesting to see what the response is……… The response should be the rolling in of sanctions But I shan’t hold my breath that the West have the bollocks It’s no great surprise. But still extremely worrying. Putin wants to put right the wrongs he feels were done to Russia after the breakup of the USSR. He doesn’t care a hoot what the countries involved think, or what international law says. The west need to hit him hard, because this isn’t the end of his ambitions. I suspect that not much will happen providing they stick to the two regions they’ve just recognised. The US first response is as underwhelming as you might have expected. Putin behaving pretty much as Hitler behaved in the 30s. Taking the piss.
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Post by hcstokie on Feb 21, 2022 21:26:27 GMT
He will invade if we and others do not firmly put our foot down NOW. This is a precursor to legitimise an invasion. Send in the troops as peacekeepers, wait for Ukrainian resistance, then invade. The last few weeks have so many similarities with Hitler and the start of the Second World War it’s a real worry. If history taught us anything it should be that you do not keep negotiating with someone intent on expansion and war. At some point you need to draw a line in the sand, as uncomfortable as that truth may sound. The West cannot show weakness at this moment. It needs strong, decisive action otherwise he will do it again, and again, and again. Peace in our time anyone? What does putting our foot down look like? Well they could impose the full range of sanctions they’ve spoken about so often as a start. What Putin has just done has broken international law. The build up of troops on the border for weeks has been a clear show of intent. It shouldn’t need a ‘Russian toecap on Ukrainian soil’ before action is taken. He’s broken the law and is clearly warmongering, so no action is not an option. What would you suggest?
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Feb 21, 2022 21:27:29 GMT
The response should be the rolling in of sanctions But I shan’t hold my breath that the West have the bollocks It’s no great surprise. But still extremely worrying. Putin wants to put right the wrongs he feels were done to Russia after the breakup of the USSR. He doesn’t care a hoot what the countries involved think, or what international law says. The west need to hit him hard, because this isn’t the end of his ambitions. I suspect that not much will happen providing they stick to the two regions they’ve just recognised. The US first response is as underwhelming as you might have expected. Putin behaving pretty much as Hitler behaved in the 30s. Taking the piss. It's almost like we all know how this movie goes. Very eerie.
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