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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 12, 2021 2:01:07 GMT
Southgate wouldn't have left it to "the likes of Sterling to stand up and volunteer", he would have known who were his best penalty takers based on the data accumulated on the training ground. I was surprised as anybody when Maguire stepped up to take the second one, however he unleashed an utter thunderbolt that no keeper would have got anywhere near and then it all made sense ... he'd been doing this regularly in training no doubt. Maybe Sterling was prepared to take one but the ones he had been taking in training were just not very good. And I bet Rashford's and Sancho's penalties had been bloody good in training too, I can't believe Gareth would bring them on to just take penalties if they hadn't been. All this stuff can be over analysed. Italy had Jorginho down as 5th pen taker to win the game, an experienced player, who has an incredible track record of taking penalties. He missed it. It happens. It's not an exact science.Nobody has suggested that it's an exact science but there is actually science behind it ... Southgate himself, said in his post match press conference that he made the decision on who took the penalties and in which order they were taken, based on how they had been performing in training and how they had performed for their clubs in the previous season but for "some reason" it hadn't worked. Some of us (well quite a lot actually,) are simply suggesting what that reason might have been.
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Post by bingbang on Jul 12, 2021 4:28:47 GMT
If Pep or Klopp were England manager, we win that, simple as.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 12, 2021 5:45:23 GMT
If Pep or Klopp were England manager, we win that, simple as. Like the CL this season? Where Pep's selection choices effectively handed the trophy to Chelsea? Or the CL 2018 where Klopp lost to RM? It's really not that simple. I like the way Southgate has got us playing football that, finally, is on a par with other quality national sides. Now he needs to trust his more talented players more to really take England to the next level, hopefully with that solidity in defensive midfield and the back as a foundation underpinning it all. The WC will be a great opportunity to see if he's got it in him to learn the lessons and be brave.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Jul 12, 2021 5:55:51 GMT
Dunner werrit, Southgate will be given an extention, so when the W/C comes round we will most likely make the Q/F, play a MON type of football,then go out on Pens, yet again.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 12, 2021 6:04:02 GMT
I feel gutted but I do feel that England might be able to win something soon…. This tournament was our big chance. Italy failed to qualify for the last World Cup but Mancini has rejuvenated them and they will build on this. France and Spain will continue to be major players and only a fool would write off Germany. In the World Cup you've also got Brazil and Argentina to deal with. We've got some really good young players but we just haven't developed a winning mentality and though you can't judge this squad on the failings of the past, tonight was our big chance to start to put that to bed but we failed. France didn't win in their own back yard in 2016 and went on to win the World Cup in Russia so let's keep hoping. I agree it will be tough and as Roy Keane said last night the last step is always the hardest but we'll certainly be one of the favourites. Unfortunately in Qatar conditions could play a factor as well.....
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Post by nott1 on Jul 12, 2021 6:08:08 GMT
Sorry folks but I did warn you! Jul 10, 2021 at 11:41am nott1 said: I can envisage a lot of anguish, we are getting a little too cocky with all this football coming home shit......it might be football coming Rome yet! But I hope not!
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Post by salopstick on Jul 12, 2021 6:10:40 GMT
With a nights sleep. Still gutted.
I want to be mad or angry but I’m not. Just disappointed that the manager threw it away. We knew from the start, before the game that is you attack them they were there for the taking. We did and scored. However we are not the Italians we can’t sit back and control the game not conceding.
We had them on the back foot and practically gave up. The formation and team selection proved that. That’s on Southgate
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 12, 2021 6:13:00 GMT
I see online dick heads have already started with the racial abuse of Rashford, Sancho and Sako, and I simply despair at footage of innocent Italian fans getting picked off by fucking cowardly idiots whilst coming out of Wembley on the way to the underground.
This particular young England team have been excellent in lifting the current mood and representing the country impeccably, they deserve better than these wankers.......
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Post by salopstick on Jul 12, 2021 6:13:49 GMT
Also I’m not having that those three took stuttering penalties in training
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 12, 2021 6:17:14 GMT
Also I’m not having that those three took stuttering penalties in training Rashford takes all his penalties like that, an usually tucks them away. He just didn't strike it cleanly......
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 12, 2021 6:20:00 GMT
With a nights sleep. Still gutted. I want to be mad or angry but I’m not. Just disappointed that the manager threw it away. We knew from the start, before the game that is you attack them they were there for the taking. We did and scored. However we are not the Italians we can’t sit back and control the game not conceding. We had them on the back foot and practically gave up. The formation and team selection proved that. That’s on Southgate I wouldn't describe Italy as there for the taking on any level, despite agreeing that we needed to be more attacking. Spain attacked them with loads of possession and still lost... They're a good side with a good manager who saw what was happening in the first 20 minutes and changed it. They were the better side thereafter. Southgate's failure was not reacting himself as we got pushed further and further back, with not much outlet in the shape of a Grealish for example.
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Post by Olgrligm on Jul 12, 2021 6:20:12 GMT
To be fair, he's got every single major call right in this tournament right up until that shootout. What can you say? Three bad penalties. Too much pressure on a teenager who has had a poor tournament. Good sportsmanship from Italy at the end. The key thing is to recognise this tournament as a big step forward with a promising young team and not to go into full English tabloid scapegoating mode. Southgate has done extraordinary things with the national team. I hate when the casual supporters go from adulating the players as heroes to claiming that they're all wank. Too much pressure on a teenager? Saka shouldn't have even needed to take the fifth pen. I said the moment that Rashford and Sancho came on, that Southgate was piling an incredible amount of pressure on both players ... They knew that the ONLY reason they had been brought on, was for them to take a penalty, penalties are difficult enough even when you've been playing in the game itself but to put two of his players under that insane pressure was a very, very poor judgement call from Southgate. I agree. All of the takers were the sign of somebody being too clever for their own good. You also have to question the senior players who didn't step up like Sterling and Henderson.
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Post by nott1 on Jul 12, 2021 6:21:33 GMT
Also I’m not having that those three took stuttering penalties in training Rashford takes all his penalties like that, an usually tucks them away. He just didn't strike it cleanly...... Sidefooting penalties is not the way,it's a lace job and smack it for me!
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Post by salopstick on Jul 12, 2021 6:29:51 GMT
Too much pressure on a teenager? Saka shouldn't have even needed to take the fifth pen. I said the moment that Rashford and Sancho came on, that Southgate was piling an incredible amount of pressure on both players ... They knew that the ONLY reason they had been brought on, was for them to take a penalty, penalties are difficult enough even when you've been playing in the game itself but to put two of his players under that insane pressure was a very, very poor judgement call from Southgate. I agree. All of the takers were the sign of somebody being too clever for their own good. You also have to question the senior players who didn't step up like Sterling and Henderson. Henderson was taken off to bring sancho and rashford on
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Post by Han Solo on Jul 12, 2021 6:33:19 GMT
Thought we did well to get to the Final and Southgate on the whole has done a good job but I can’t help thinking how we would have done with a more expansive manager. Would we have got picked off and knocked out in the first round or would we have set the tournament alight? I guess we’ll never know but it just felt like a “what if” situation where we could have gone for it but chose not too. Southgate deserves a lot of credit but I do think he’s got a fantastic group of players at his disposal that he didn’t fully utilise. Foden, Grealish and Sancho criminally underused throughout the tournament yet Mount pretty much plays every minute yet I don’t remember any significant contribution but he “tracks back well.”
Hindsight is a great thing but I thought he managed the final really badly. Whilst Mancini was proactive constantly wanting to refresh the side and give them new options he just dawdled leaving players on that were dead on their feet and at the end of 90 allowing us to get overrun. In ET pace could have terrified there 2 CBs.
The pens were just plain crazy you can practice all you want in training but what we needed were match hardened experienced players but what does he do brings on 2 players with 30 secs to go who were cold and gives a talented teenager who’d had a stinker the 5th.
Massive respect to Saka for taking the 5th but where were Henderson, Walker and Sterling they should have been putting themselves forward to save the youngsters from that sort of pressure. You cannot replicate a pen shootout in training it’s all about bottle.
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Post by thevoid on Jul 12, 2021 6:35:32 GMT
Should have put Grealish on after 60 minutes
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Post by Northy on Jul 12, 2021 6:35:37 GMT
James McClean Will boo the wanker regardless next year What has he done this time
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Post by Northy on Jul 12, 2021 6:37:18 GMT
Thought we did well to get to the Final and Southgate on the whole has done a good job but I can’t help thinking how we would have done with a more expansive manager. Would we have got picked off and knocked out in the first round or would we have set the tournament alight? I guess we’ll never know but it just felt like a “what if” situation where we could have gone for it but chose not too. Southgate deserves a lot of credit but I do think he’s got a fantastic group of players at his disposal that he didn’t fully utilise. Foden, Grealish and Sancho criminally underused throughout the tournament yet Mount pretty much plays every minute yet I don’t remember any significant contribution but he “tracks back well.” Hindsight is a great thing but I thought he managed the final really badly. Whilst Mancini was proactive constantly wanting to refresh the side and give them new options he just dawdled leaving players on that were dead on their feet and at the end of 90 allowing us to get overrun. In ET pace could have terrified there 2 CBs. The pens were just plain crazy you can practice all you want in training but what we needed were match hardened experienced players but what does he do brings on 2 players with 30 secs to go who were cold and gives a talented teenager who’d had a stinker the 5th. Massive respect to Saka for taking the 5th but where were Henderson, Walker and Sterling they should have been putting themselves forward to save the youngsters from that sort of pressure. You cannot replicate a pen shootout in training it’s all about bottle. Henderson was subbed off for Rashford, agree about the other senior players
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Post by starkiller on Jul 12, 2021 6:40:58 GMT
If anything the penalties were over practiced.. Smart arse pogba rubbish coming on cold. Was just wierd It was all very odd. Were penalty takers selected to get the headline 'Boo the knee racists defeated'? I'm not saying this is what happened. Merely posing the possibility. Echoes of an ill Ronaldo being forced to play for Brazil in the world cup final for sponsorship reasons. Therefore, in a sense, it was out of Southgate's hands. Who knows what machinations go on behind the scenes when money and agendas come into play. I'm just saying it was odd choices, odd circumstances, and odd how it unfolded. Nothing against the lads, but no-one can say we that was our best five choices for that situation.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 12, 2021 6:41:08 GMT
With a nights sleep. Still gutted. I want to be mad or angry but I’m not. Just disappointed that the manager threw it away. We knew from the start, before the game that is you attack them they were there for the taking. We did and scored. However we are not the Italians we can’t sit back and control the game not conceding. We had them on the back foot and practically gave up. The formation and team selection proved that. That’s on Southgate I wouldn't describe Italy as there for the taking on any level, despite agreeing that we needed to be more attacking. Spain attacked them with loads of possession and still lost... They're a good side with a good manager who saw what was happening in the first 20 minutes and changed it. They were the better side thereafter. Southgate's failure was not reacting himself as we got pushed further and further back, with not much outlet in the shape of a Grealish for example. In fairness to Southgate, the change he would have liked to make he couldn’t. That change was to bring on Foden alongside Sako or Sancho and switch to 4-2-3-1 with Foden playing the middle of that forward midfield 3 feeding the runs of his forwards and asking more challenging questions of Italy’s defence. But Foden was injured. And Gareth didn’t really have much idea what to do to change the flow of the game. His substitutions didn’t really achieve much. Sako helped to some degree in changing the formation, but he seemed lost on the pitch. Henderson for Rice was utterly baffling.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2021 6:42:02 GMT
Totally agree with that Cobham.
Grealish for Mount after 60 ish mins as Mount was fairly anonymous throughout. Sterling did nothing last night but was on theitch for the entire game.
As for the penalties, where were Sterling, Walker and the other senior, more experienced players ?
Some bad calls by Southgate lost us that game.
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Post by Han Solo on Jul 12, 2021 6:42:17 GMT
I see online dick heads have already started with the racial abuse of Rashford, Sancho and Sako, and I simply despair at footage of innocent Italian fans getting picked off by fucking cowardly idiots whilst coming out of Wembley on the way to the underground. This particular young England team have been excellent in lifting the current mood and representing the country impeccably, they deserve better than these wankers....... Well said. We don’t deserve to win a final when you see the way the way these idiots behave. The sad thing is these aren’t a small number. I doubt the majority haven’t even been to a match but they latch themselves onto a cause and replicate what they do on a Friday night. This was always on the cards when you saw them assaulting the security to get in and take seats from those fans that had paid 1000s for their tickets. This isn’t a football problem it’s a society one and one of our own making. How long before the Police are accused of being “heavy handed.” There’s a reason that there were no issues in Russia.
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Post by Han Solo on Jul 12, 2021 6:43:08 GMT
Thought we did well to get to the Final and Southgate on the whole has done a good job but I can’t help thinking how we would have done with a more expansive manager. Would we have got picked off and knocked out in the first round or would we have set the tournament alight? I guess we’ll never know but it just felt like a “what if” situation where we could have gone for it but chose not too. Southgate deserves a lot of credit but I do think he’s got a fantastic group of players at his disposal that he didn’t fully utilise. Foden, Grealish and Sancho criminally underused throughout the tournament yet Mount pretty much plays every minute yet I don’t remember any significant contribution but he “tracks back well.” Hindsight is a great thing but I thought he managed the final really badly. Whilst Mancini was proactive constantly wanting to refresh the side and give them new options he just dawdled leaving players on that were dead on their feet and at the end of 90 allowing us to get overrun. In ET pace could have terrified there 2 CBs. The pens were just plain crazy you can practice all you want in training but what we needed were match hardened experienced players but what does he do brings on 2 players with 30 secs to go who were cold and gives a talented teenager who’d had a stinker the 5th. Massive respect to Saka for taking the 5th but where were Henderson, Walker and Sterling they should have been putting themselves forward to save the youngsters from that sort of pressure. You cannot replicate a pen shootout in training it’s all about bottle. Henderson was subbed off for Rashford, agree about the other senior players Yep because he didn’t fancy taking a pen or Southgate didn’t want him too.
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Post by moon on Jul 12, 2021 6:43:24 GMT
Southgate deserves a lot of credit but I do think he’s got a fantastic group of players at his disposal that he didn’t fully utilise. Ultimately that is what has cost us, we have a really exciting young squad full of attacking options and we didn’t play to our strengths. He needs to learn his lessons in time for the World Cup, I’m not convinced he learnt his lessons from Russia 2018 though when we tried to defend a narrow lead.
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Post by salopstick on Jul 12, 2021 6:43:38 GMT
Jose just said on talksport that a player who bottled and refused to take a penalty in 2018 wad not taken to this tournament because of it
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Post by moon on Jul 12, 2021 6:48:11 GMT
Chiellinis shameless pull on sakas neck was SHAMELESS. Yes, and that stamp on Grealish. Both could have been red. I don’t think either was a red, and Chiellini did exactly what he should’ve done in that situation, I don’t think he expected Saka to hit the ground with such force though. If an England player had been in that situation we’d have applauded him for taking one for the team. It was studs up on Grealish but not a stamp, I don’t think he intended to hurt him, and Jack was fine after it anyway.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 12, 2021 6:54:04 GMT
Yes, and that stamp on Grealish. Both could have been red. I don’t think either was a red, and Chiellini did exactly what he should’ve done in that situation, I don’t think he expected Saka to hit the ground with such force though. If an England player had been in that situation we’d have applauded him for taking one for the team. It was studs up on Grealish but not a stamp, I don’t think he intended to hurt him, and Jack was fine after it anyway. I think it's safe to say that had either of those situations been reversed, the Italian would still be rolling around this morning, and the rest of the side would've been screaming at the ref putting pressure on for a red card..cynical game management, another area we need to improve.
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Post by hardcastle on Jul 12, 2021 6:57:54 GMT
Well. I guess the better team won. Which makes it a bit less painful than when we went out to Argentina in 98 or Germany in 96 having played really well. On to Qatar then .....
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Post by hardcastle on Jul 12, 2021 6:58:06 GMT
Well. I guess the better team won. Which makes it a bit less painful than when we went out to Argentina in 98 or Germany in 96 having played really well. On to Qatar then .....
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Jul 12, 2021 7:01:35 GMT
Agh, same old England in the end, just that little further on in a tournament.
We'll never have a better chance of winning a tournament. :-(
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