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Post by jokker on May 30, 2022 11:36:16 GMT
And if from 0 games you have 0 xG this is seen as a personal fault apparently. Like it couldn't possibly be the club's coaching policy that is wrong... Brown vs Porter is a false equivalence. I agree. This was never about Brown. I just used him as an example of how any player signed by O'Neill will get tons of chances in his team, no matter how often the player misfires, while a player brought through the academy, which O'Neill despises - although he whistles a merry tune when asked about it by the Sentinel - will get none.
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Post by nottsover60 on May 30, 2022 12:17:14 GMT
Brown vs Porter is a false equivalence. I agree. This was never about Brown. I just used him as an example of how any player signed by O'Neill will get tons of chances in his team, no matter how often the player misfires, while a player brought through the academy, which O'Neill despises - although he whistles a merry tune when asked about it by the Sentinel - will get none. If he despises the academy so much how come he has had virtually every single one of them up training with the first team?
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Post by spitthedog on May 30, 2022 12:44:10 GMT
Brown vs Porter is a false equivalence. I agree. This was never about Brown. I just used him as an example of how any player signed by O'Neill will get tons of chances in his team, no matter how often the player misfires, while a player brought through the academy, which O'Neill despises - although he whistles a merry tune when asked about it by the Sentinel - will get none. Surridge is also an example of a player signed but he didn't get tons of chances?
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Post by cvillestokie on May 30, 2022 13:05:29 GMT
Just imagine the uproar if we signed players not to play them 😂
Shocking that this is even a discussion point. Players identified by the manager, who are also typically more developed and cost the club much more (wages/fees) will of course get more game time and opportunities to succeed. Why wouldn’t they? What manager wouldn’t do that? Why would that signal that MON then ‘despises’ the academy?
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Post by jokker on May 30, 2022 13:57:27 GMT
I agree. This was never about Brown. I just used him as an example of how any player signed by O'Neill will get tons of chances in his team, no matter how often the player misfires, while a player brought through the academy, which O'Neill despises - although he whistles a merry tune when asked about it by the Sentinel - will get none. Surridge is also an example of a player signed but he didn't get tons of chances? He still got 100% more chances than Porter did in the league.
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Post by jokker on May 30, 2022 14:02:24 GMT
I agree. This was never about Brown. I just used him as an example of how any player signed by O'Neill will get tons of chances in his team, no matter how often the player misfires, while a player brought through the academy, which O'Neill despises - although he whistles a merry tune when asked about it by the Sentinel - will get none. If he despises the academy so much how come he has had virtually every single one of them up training with the first team? To make the board happy. To show them that he takes youth development seriously and intends to play them in the league team. Only...he has no intension of playing them and he only appeases the board to make them think he's just about to establish academy players in the league team. It's just a way of keeping himself in the job, because he fails at the other main perimeter of his job, running a promotion chasing first team.
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Post by jokker on May 30, 2022 14:04:10 GMT
Just imagine the uproar if we signed players not to play them 😂 Shocking that this is even a discussion point. Players identified by the manager, who are also typically more developed and cost the club much more (wages/fees) will of course get more game time and opportunities to succeed. Why wouldn’t they? What manager wouldn’t do that? Why would that signal that MON then ‘despises’ the academy? We can't keep signing players as if we were a soon to be PL club. We have to rely on our own sources, especially if we drop further down the leagues.
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Post by spitthedog on May 30, 2022 14:05:51 GMT
Surridge is also an example of a player signed but he didn't get tons of chances? He still got 100% more chances than Porter did in the league. Why wouldn't he? I imagine he thought Surridge was more capable of Championship level football (for a while he did anyway) and presumably Cooper thought the same. If a Championship club come in for Porter at some stage and he does well then I think you will have a reasonable point.
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Post by jokker on May 30, 2022 14:14:30 GMT
He still got 100% more chances than Porter did in the league. Why wouldn't he? I imagine he thought Surridge was more capable of Championship level football (for a while he did anyway) and presumably Cooper thought the same. If a Championship club come in for Porter at some stage and he does well then I think you will have a reasonable point. O'Neill kept singing Porter's praises for over a year, since before his leg was healed even, so I imagine he thought Porter was capable of Championship level football. What Porter then goes on to in his afterstoke life has zero relevance to the valuation O'Neill has made on him.
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Post by nottsover60 on May 30, 2022 14:43:22 GMT
He still got 100% more chances than Porter did in the league. Why wouldn't he? I imagine he thought Surridge was more capable of Championship level football (for a while he did anyway) and presumably Cooper thought the same. If a Championship club come in for Porter at some stage and he does well then I think you will have a reasonable point. Cooper thought the same having managed him for a season on loan at Swansea. I wonder if Porter's loan manager this season will offer him a contract or if another Championship club will look at him?
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Post by nottsover60 on May 30, 2022 14:46:33 GMT
If he despises the academy so much how come he has had virtually every single one of them up training with the first team? To make the board happy. To show them that he takes youth development seriously and intends to play them in the league team. Only...he has no intension of playing them and he only appeases the board to make them think he's just about to establish academy players in the league team. It's just a way of keeping himself in the job, because he fails at the other main perimeter of his job, running a promotion chasing first team. Well no other previous Stoke manager has had to do that. Do you seriously think a manager of his stature would accept a job where he had to do something he didn't want to do? He'd have stayed with N Ireland just as he had when previously approached by other clubs.
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Post by jokker on May 30, 2022 16:50:59 GMT
Why wouldn't he? I imagine he thought Surridge was more capable of Championship level football (for a while he did anyway) and presumably Cooper thought the same. If a Championship club come in for Porter at some stage and he does well then I think you will have a reasonable point. Cooper thought the same having managed him for a season on loan at Swansea. I wonder if Porter's loan manager this season will offer him a contract or if another Championship club will look at him? Porter doesn't have a loan manager. Stoke may have one, although I've never heard him mentioned by name. At any rate, it's not the loan manager that offers contracts.
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Post by jokker on May 30, 2022 17:10:55 GMT
To make the board happy. To show them that he takes youth development seriously and intends to play them in the league team. Only...he has no intension of playing them and he only appeases the board to make them think he's just about to establish academy players in the league team. It's just a way of keeping himself in the job, because he fails at the other main perimeter of his job, running a promotion chasing first team. Well no other previous Stoke manager has had to do that. Do you seriously think a manager of his stature would accept a job where he had to do something he didn't want to do? He'd have stayed with N Ireland just as he had when previously approached by other clubs. I don't think O'Neill had any idea what he was getting into at Stoke. He probably thought he could do "a Cooper", i.e. take a near bottom club, turn it around and six months later win promotion. He might have, if he'd been a better manager. He had no previous English league club experience and I don't think he even thought about the academy when he took the job. He just said yes, yes, and yes, whenever Jon Coates flashed the £££££££ sign. I don't know exactly what his "stature" was as NI manager except I was very disappointed when he was named, but whatever it was it's got to have declined considerably by 2022. Now this may sound strange coming from someone who's been among the hardcore fighters in O'Neill's corner versus all the critics in the 200+ pages in the O'Neill thread. I still think he's the right manager for Stoke at this point, because 75-80% of all the players are MON signees, and I doubt another manager will catch a tune from most of them. So if Stoke is to launch a successful attempt at avoiding relegation next season, he's the one to do it. Otherwise any new manager will want to get rid of all our current players except Powell, and this will take as long as it took MON to get rid of all the Jones/Rowett waste of spaces, and we will probably go down in the process We can't keep doing this new players all the time. We've got to build a team in Stoke's own image. Best way to do that is to bring on players trained at the club. Not all at once, just bit by bit.
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Post by lordb on May 30, 2022 18:40:49 GMT
Well no other previous Stoke manager has had to do that. Do you seriously think a manager of his stature would accept a job where he had to do something he didn't want to do? He'd have stayed with N Ireland just as he had when previously approached by other clubs. I don't think O'Neill had any idea what he was getting into at Stoke. He probably thought he could do "a Cooper", i.e. take a near bottom club, turn it around and six months later win promotion. He might have, if he'd been a better manager. He had no previous English league club experience and I don't think he even thought about the academy when he took the job. He just said yes, yes, and yes, whenever Jon Coates flashed the £££££££ sign. I don't know exactly what his "stature" was as NI manager except I was very disappointed when he was named, but whatever it was it's got to have declined considerably by 2022. Now this may sound strange coming from someone who's been among the hardcore fighters in O'Neill's corner versus all the critics in the 200+ pages in the O'Neill thread. I still think he's the right manager for Stoke at this point, because 75-80% of all the players are MON signees, and I doubt another manager will catch a tune from most of them. So if Stoke is to launch a successful attempt at avoiding relegation next season, he's the one to do it. Otherwise any new manager will want to get rid of all our current players except Powell, and this will take as long as it took MON to get rid of all the Jones/Rowett waste of spaces, and we will probably go down in the process We can't keep doing this new players all the time. We've got to build a team in Stoke's own image. Best way to do that is to bring on players trained at the club. Not all at once, just bit by bit. O'Neill turned down several jobs, e.g West Brom and Scotland jobs, it's nonsense to say he just said yes to anything Stoke said to him Any new manager would love to work with most of our squad Souttar, Baker, Tymon for starters
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Post by nottsover60 on May 30, 2022 20:44:31 GMT
Cooper thought the same having managed him for a season on loan at Swansea. I wonder if Porter's loan manager this season will offer him a contract or if another Championship club will look at him? Porter doesn't have a loan manager. Stoke may have one, although I've never heard him mentioned by name. At any rate, it's not the loan manager that offers contracts. I meant the manager of the team where he was on loan last season - Altrincham was it? I wondered if he was interested in giving him a contract seeing as according to you he is good enough to have been kept at Stoke if MON had any intention of playing academy players. Surely if he's good enough for us Altrincham will leap at the chance of signing him as Cooper did Surridge?
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Post by jokker on May 31, 2022 10:31:54 GMT
I don't think O'Neill had any idea what he was getting into at Stoke. He probably thought he could do "a Cooper", i.e. take a near bottom club, turn it around and six months later win promotion. He might have, if he'd been a better manager. He had no previous English league club experience and I don't think he even thought about the academy when he took the job. He just said yes, yes, and yes, whenever Jon Coates flashed the £££££££ sign. I don't know exactly what his "stature" was as NI manager except I was very disappointed when he was named, but whatever it was it's got to have declined considerably by 2022. Now this may sound strange coming from someone who's been among the hardcore fighters in O'Neill's corner versus all the critics in the 200+ pages in the O'Neill thread. I still think he's the right manager for Stoke at this point, because 75-80% of all the players are MON signees, and I doubt another manager will catch a tune from most of them. So if Stoke is to launch a successful attempt at avoiding relegation next season, he's the one to do it. Otherwise any new manager will want to get rid of all our current players except Powell, and this will take as long as it took MON to get rid of all the Jones/Rowett waste of spaces, and we will probably go down in the process We can't keep doing this new players all the time. We've got to build a team in Stoke's own image. Best way to do that is to bring on players trained at the club. Not all at once, just bit by bit. O'Neill turned down several jobs, e.g West Brom and Scotland jobs, it's nonsense to say he just said yes to anything Stoke said to him Any new manager would love to work with most of our squad Souttar, Baker, Tymon for starters Tymon might stay, but Souttar and Baker are high on the list of players most likely to be wanted by other clubs.
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Post by jokker on May 31, 2022 10:42:28 GMT
Porter doesn't have a loan manager. Stoke may have one, although I've never heard him mentioned by name. At any rate, it's not the loan manager that offers contracts. I meant the manager of the team where he was on loan last season - Altrincham was it? I wondered if he was interested in giving him a contract seeing as according to you he is good enough to have been kept at Stoke if MON had any intention of playing academy players. Surely if he's good enough for us Altrincham will leap at the chance of signing him as Cooper did Surridge? If he's lucky Vale might offer him a contract. I've never said "he is good enough to have been kept at Stoke". I don't have the data to make that judgment. I've suggested he was good enough to be given a chance to play in the first team based on games in the u23s - which means MON and I agree on one thing, because that's exactly what he has said over and over and over again in Sentinel interviews. But his ears don't hear what his mouth says. The chance to see if he was good enough to play in the league never happened, though it wouldn't have hurt to see him in action towards the end of the season when we had nothing to play for. THEN you can make the judgment. But by then he'd already been ditched.
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Post by jokker on May 31, 2022 10:50:41 GMT
I don't think O'Neill had any idea what he was getting into at Stoke. He probably thought he could do "a Cooper", i.e. take a near bottom club, turn it around and six months later win promotion. He might have, if he'd been a better manager. He had no previous English league club experience and I don't think he even thought about the academy when he took the job. He just said yes, yes, and yes, whenever Jon Coates flashed the £££££££ sign. I don't know exactly what his "stature" was as NI manager except I was very disappointed when he was named, but whatever it was it's got to have declined considerably by 2022. Now this may sound strange coming from someone who's been among the hardcore fighters in O'Neill's corner versus all the critics in the 200+ pages in the O'Neill thread. I still think he's the right manager for Stoke at this point, because 75-80% of all the players are MON signees, and I doubt another manager will catch a tune from most of them. So if Stoke is to launch a successful attempt at avoiding relegation next season, he's the one to do it. Otherwise any new manager will want to get rid of all our current players except Powell, and this will take as long as it took MON to get rid of all the Jones/Rowett waste of spaces, and we will probably go down in the process We can't keep doing this new players all the time. We've got to build a team in Stoke's own image. Best way to do that is to bring on players trained at the club. Not all at once, just bit by bit. O'Neill turned down several jobs, e.g West Brom and Scotland jobs, it's nonsense to say he just said yes to anything Stoke said to him Any new manager would love to work with most of our squad Souttar, Baker, Tymon for starters The fact that he turned down other jobs don't tell us anything about his stature. The fact that he hasn't been offered a better job or any other job, while he's been at Stoke, might hint at what that stature is in the game. The notion of other managers saying on matchdays that they would like to have scfc's players is just mind games. It don't mean nothing. Very few of our players have been targetted in the last few transfer windows, which ought to tell you the realities of those statements. No one has tried to prise Powell away, which is mindblowing, but I'm relieved that he's still here.
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Post by gaznandi on Jun 1, 2022 15:48:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2022 18:57:18 GMT
Glad to see he's able to forge a career for himself! I like that he's out there playing in some of the smaller European leagues. I'd sooner play in the top tier in Hungary than 4th tier in England.
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Post by jokker on Jun 2, 2022 14:20:13 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 4, 2022 18:48:23 GMT
Jack Griffiths scored for the England u17s.
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Post by jokker on Jun 4, 2022 19:49:06 GMT
Glad to see he's able to forge a career for himself! I like that he's out there playing in some of the smaller European leagues. I'd sooner play in the top tier in Hungary than 4th tier in England. Maybe he's better off playing in the top tier in Hungary than in the top tier in England...?
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Post by onefatcopper on Jun 4, 2022 19:58:17 GMT
Jack Griffiths scored for the England u17s. How great to escape from the never ending threads about MON, Allen’s contract the new kit etc and hear about one of our youngsters representing his country and scoring, his parents the club and staff must be tremendously proud of him.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2022 22:57:19 GMT
Glad to see he's able to forge a career for himself! I like that he's out there playing in some of the smaller European leagues. I'd sooner play in the top tier in Hungary than 4th tier in England. Maybe he's better off playing in the top tier in Hungary than in the top tier in England...? Not entirely sure how you figure that...
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Post by jokker on Jun 5, 2022 3:19:15 GMT
Maybe he's better off playing in the top tier in Hungary than in the top tier in England...? Not entirely sure how you figure that... Hungary 1 England 0
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Post by mickstupp on Jun 5, 2022 9:32:37 GMT
Not entirely sure how you figure that... Hungary 1 England 0 What a strange thought process.
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Post by lordb on Jun 5, 2022 9:54:17 GMT
What a strange thought process. Denmark beat France (away) therefore the Danish league is better than the French league That's how it works isn't it? I'm 6 years old by the way
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Post by SuperRickyFuller on Jun 5, 2022 9:57:34 GMT
What a strange thought process. Denmark beat France (away) therefore the Danish league is better than the French league That's how it works isn't it? I'm 6 years old by the way North Macedonia have a better league than European Champions Italy as well 😀
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Post by jokker on Jun 5, 2022 10:36:26 GMT
You're all jumping to conclusions. The Hungarian league may be a better place to develop as a player than the PL. That doesn't mean that Honved are better than Citeh, or that you get better paid in Budapest than any old English club. Denmark's win vs France doesn't mean that FCK is better than PSG. But it does signify that Danish footballers are getting a good education at youth level and are able to apply it when playing internationally.
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