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Post by cheadlepotter on Aug 10, 2021 20:52:14 GMT
Have they won a cup final or scraped a penalty win against a League 2 team? Christ. I thought the two Stevenage fans running onto the pitch after beating Luton was small time then up step Derby! EDIT: Apologies, Wayne Rooney’s Derby.
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Post by theonlooker on Aug 10, 2021 20:55:04 GMT
The way Derby have just celebrated winning the shoot-out is the most cingeworthy thing I've seen in years. Players running around screaming and shouting, you'd think they'd just won the competition. You surely can understand it though? The club must be in complete turmoil and they mustn't know if they're coming or going. Hardly any players at the club, being asked to sign valueless contracts etc. I feel for them in all honesty. At the end of the day it is their job and income. Everyone has a breaking point.
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Post by Northy on Aug 10, 2021 20:57:29 GMT
Have they won a cup final or scraped a penalty win against a League 2 team? Christ. I thought the two Stevenage fans running onto the pitch after beating Luton was small time then up step Derby! EDIT: Apologies, Wayne Rooney’s Derby. That's a big local Derby for them though, and Luton the bigger club. I could have been there but now down there the next 2 nights, the locals will be made up with that win.
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Post by lordb on Aug 10, 2021 21:00:34 GMT
Luton, Blackburn and Bristol City all go out to lower league opposition
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Post by everyoneneedsawhelan on Aug 10, 2021 21:24:51 GMT
Luton, Blackburn and Bristol City all go out to lower league opposition + Hull to Wigan. Jordan Cousins scoring the winning pen incidentally.
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Post by nottsover60 on Aug 11, 2021 9:16:03 GMT
The way Derby have just celebrated winning the shoot-out is the most cingeworthy thing I've seen in years. Players running around screaming and shouting, you'd think they'd just won the competition. You surely can understand it though? The club must be in complete turmoil and they mustn't know if they're coming or going. Hardly any players at the club, being asked to sign valueless contracts etc. I feel for them in all honesty. At the end of the day it is their job and income. Everyone has a breaking point. I think we should all feel for them. Remember Mel Morris was a local businessman who wanted to help out his favourite football club which had not long ago been a Premier team but were now struggling to get back there. He now realises exactly how much money he is losing just trying to keep them afloat and suffering from ill health has decided to stop bankrolling them. He is paying the players wages from his own funds not the club's. For Morris read Coates and ask what would happen to Stoke if the Coates family reached the same conclusion. I think there is a bit too much gloating on here. I get dislike of a club but gloating about something which could just as easily happen to us is a bit too much like pride before a fall for my liking.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 11, 2021 9:30:02 GMT
You surely can understand it though? The club must be in complete turmoil and they mustn't know if they're coming or going. Hardly any players at the club, being asked to sign valueless contracts etc. I feel for them in all honesty. At the end of the day it is their job and income. Everyone has a breaking point. I think we should all feel for them. Remember Mel Morris was a local businessman who wanted to help out his favourite football club which had not long ago been a Premier team but were now struggling to get back there. He now realises exactly how much money he is losing just trying to keep them afloat and suffering from ill health has decided to stop bankrolling them. He is paying the players wages from his own funds not the club's. For Morris read Coates and ask what would happen to Stoke if the Coates family reached the same conclusion. I think there is a bit too much gloating on here. I get dislike of a club but gloating about something which could just as easily happen to us is a bit too much like pride before a fall for my liking. I don't hate Derby went to uni there but I don't feel any sympathy for them either, its clear with the questionable accounting and messing around with the stadium he has known how much money they were losing for some time, they could have biten the bullet like we have had to do but instead they carried on as if nothing has happened, I don't see the comparison with Stoke either we have no external debt, own the ground and now have manageable losses for any new buyer should that ever be required.
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Post by stantheman on Aug 11, 2021 9:30:18 GMT
The way Derby have just celebrated winning the shoot-out is the most cingeworthy thing I've seen in years. Players running around screaming and shouting, you'd think they'd just won the competition. You surely can understand it though? The club must be in complete turmoil and they mustn't know if they're coming or going. Hardly any players at the club, being asked to sign valueless contracts etc. I feel for them in all honesty. At the end of the day it is their job and income. Everyone has a breaking point. No. Regardless of circumstances, beating a Salford in the Carabo Cup is not something to scream about.
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Post by thehoof on Aug 11, 2021 9:43:08 GMT
I think we should all feel for them. Remember Mel Morris was a local businessman who wanted to help out his favourite football club which had not long ago been a Premier team but were now struggling to get back there. He now realises exactly how much money he is losing just trying to keep them afloat and suffering from ill health has decided to stop bankrolling them. He is paying the players wages from his own funds not the club's. For Morris read Coates and ask what would happen to Stoke if the Coates family reached the same conclusion. I think there is a bit too much gloating on here. I get dislike of a club but gloating about something which could just as easily happen to us is a bit too much like pride before a fall for my liking. I don't hate Derby went to uni there but I don't feel any sympathy for them either, its clear with the questionable accounting and messing around with the stadium he has known how much money they were losing for some time, they could have biten the bullet like we have had to do but instead they carried on as if nothing has happened, I don't see the comparison with Stoke either we have no external debt, own the ground and now have manageable losses for any new buyer should that ever be required. Any new investor MAY be asked to pay off the loans put into the club by the Coates family. IF that were the case I wouldn’t call £180m a manageable loss.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 11, 2021 10:10:34 GMT
I don't hate Derby went to uni there but I don't feel any sympathy for them either, its clear with the questionable accounting and messing around with the stadium he has known how much money they were losing for some time, they could have biten the bullet like we have had to do but instead they carried on as if nothing has happened, I don't see the comparison with Stoke either we have no external debt, own the ground and now have manageable losses for any new buyer should that ever be required. Any new investor MAY be asked to pay off the loans put into the club by the Coates family. IF that were the case I wouldn’t call £180m a manageable loss. They wont ever be asked to pay off the loans, there would be a purchase price agreed where they would hope to get as much of their investment back as possible that will never be £180m unless we have qualified regularly for the champions league in which case that £180m would be more like £600m or £800m anyway, in my opinion a bigger concern than a potential takeover is bet 365 floating and becoming a listed company as at that point we would lose their direct funding and would be reliant on the families personal fortunes.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 11, 2021 10:17:27 GMT
Rumoured to have offered 37 year old Glenn Whelan a short term deal.......
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Post by thehoof on Aug 11, 2021 11:13:52 GMT
Any new investor MAY be asked to pay off the loans put into the club by the Coates family. IF that were the case I wouldn’t call £180m a manageable loss. They wont ever be asked to pay off the loans, there would be a purchase price agreed where they would hope to get as much of their investment back as possible that will never be £180m unless we have qualified regularly for the champions league in which case that £180m would be more like £600m or £800m anyway, in my opinion a bigger concern than a potential takeover is bet 365 floating and becoming a listed company as at that point we would lose their direct funding and would be reliant on the families personal fortunes. How do you know what the Coates family may want if they sold the club. Not as they would, but what if they simply said enough is enough, no more investing in the club? Under your thinking they could quite easily cut their losses that way. We should be grateful for the Coates’ involvement, but we shouldn’t think that it’s a given that when Peter leaves, Denise will have the same view with regard to funding.
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Post by nottsover60 on Aug 11, 2021 11:20:57 GMT
They wont ever be asked to pay off the loans, there would be a purchase price agreed where they would hope to get as much of their investment back as possible that will never be £180m unless we have qualified regularly for the champions league in which case that £180m would be more like £600m or £800m anyway, in my opinion a bigger concern than a potential takeover is bet 365 floating and becoming a listed company as at that point we would lose their direct funding and would be reliant on the families personal fortunes. How do you know what the Coates family may want if they sold the club. Not as they would, but what if they simply said enough is enough, no more investing in the club? Under your thinking they could quite easily cut their losses that way. We should be grateful for the Coates’ involvement, but we shouldn’t think that it’s a given that when Peter leaves, Denise will have the same view with regard to funding. Exactly. Mocking Derby and the regular criticism of the Coates family is asking for an almighty fall. Remember Derby have done nothing illegal with their accounts in fact the way they have worked is common practice in business just different from the rest of the football league. They did nothing undercover, notifying the League of what they were doing and getting their approval for everything they did.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 11, 2021 11:48:32 GMT
They wont ever be asked to pay off the loans, there would be a purchase price agreed where they would hope to get as much of their investment back as possible that will never be £180m unless we have qualified regularly for the champions league in which case that £180m would be more like £600m or £800m anyway, in my opinion a bigger concern than a potential takeover is bet 365 floating and becoming a listed company as at that point we would lose their direct funding and would be reliant on the families personal fortunes. How do you know what the Coates family may want if they sold the club. Not as they would, but what if they simply said enough is enough, no more investing in the club? Under your thinking they could quite easily cut their losses that way. We should be grateful for the Coates’ involvement, but we shouldn’t think that it’s a given that when Peter leaves, Denise will have the same view with regard to funding. I am talking in practical terms of what happens when a company is taken over, I have never known loans to be repaid in the way you suggest as its largely pointless, the selling company records a gain or loss on its investment (share capital and loans) against the sales price, for Stoke under almost any circumstances this will be a loss. Yes the family could decide to stop funding the club the outcome of that unless they get very likely is a reduced sales price. Peter's leaving is irrelevant its bet 365 that is funding the club not him, the increased involvement of Jon suggests this will continue as I said a greater risk is bet 365 floating and the club no longer being funded by them and then being reliant on the personal fortunes of the family.
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Post by nottsover60 on Aug 11, 2021 12:46:11 GMT
How do you know what the Coates family may want if they sold the club. Not as they would, but what if they simply said enough is enough, no more investing in the club? Under your thinking they could quite easily cut their losses that way. We should be grateful for the Coates’ involvement, but we shouldn’t think that it’s a given that when Peter leaves, Denise will have the same view with regard to funding. I am talking in practical terms of what happens when a company is taken over, I have never known loans to be repaid in the way you suggest as its largely pointless, the selling company records a gain or loss on its investment (share capital and loans) against the sales price, for Stoke under almost any circumstances this will be a loss. Yes the family could decide to stop funding the club the outcome of that unless they get very likely is a reduced sales price. Peter's leaving is irrelevant its bet 365 that is funding the club not him, the increased involvement of Jon suggests this will continue as I said a greater risk is bet 365 floating and the club no longer being funded by them and then being reliant on the personal fortunes of the family. Yes and also the fact that Bet365 is run by Denise who as I understand it is none too happy with her father investing in Stoke after the way he was hounded out of the club the first time around. I suspect she has no sentiment at all for Stoke and only wants to keep Peter and Jon happy. How much of that is for her father and how much for her brother we don't know. I just wish people would look at Derby and realise how lucky we are as but for the grace of the gods (or the Coates) go we.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Aug 11, 2021 12:59:16 GMT
How do you know what the Coates family may want if they sold the club. Not as they would, but what if they simply said enough is enough, no more investing in the club? Under your thinking they could quite easily cut their losses that way. We should be grateful for the Coates’ involvement, but we shouldn’t think that it’s a given that when Peter leaves, Denise will have the same view with regard to funding. I am talking in practical terms of what happens when a company is taken over, I have never known loans to be repaid in the way you suggest as its largely pointless, the selling company records a gain or loss on its investment (share capital and loans) against the sales price, for Stoke under almost any circumstances this will be a loss. Yes the family could decide to stop funding the club the outcome of that unless they get very likely is a reduced sales price. Peter's leaving is irrelevant its bet 365 that is funding the club not him, the increased involvement of Jon suggests this will continue as I said a greater risk is bet 365 floating and the club no longer being funded by them and then being reliant on the personal fortunes of the family. If it floated there are a whole number of options ie leave the entity in , take it out etc , create a trust as Jack Walker did , but one things fore sure money wouldnt be an issue if inclination wasn’t its the desire to prop up thats always a risk floated or not
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Post by miggo on Aug 11, 2021 13:01:45 GMT
I am talking in practical terms of what happens when a company is taken over, I have never known loans to be repaid in the way you suggest as its largely pointless, the selling company records a gain or loss on its investment (share capital and loans) against the sales price, for Stoke under almost any circumstances this will be a loss. Yes the family could decide to stop funding the club the outcome of that unless they get very likely is a reduced sales price. Peter's leaving is irrelevant its bet 365 that is funding the club not him, the increased involvement of Jon suggests this will continue as I said a greater risk is bet 365 floating and the club no longer being funded by them and then being reliant on the personal fortunes of the family. Yes and also the fact that Bet365 is run by Denise who as I understand it is none too happy with her father investing in Stoke after the way he was hounded out of the club the first time around. I suspect she has no sentiment at all for Stoke and only wants to keep Peter and Jon happy. How much of that is for her father and how much for her brother we don't know. I just wish people would look at Derby and realise how lucky we are as but for the grace of the gods (or the Coates) go we. As much as Denise may hate the club it is also works as a tax relief for Bet365 as part of the 365 profits are run into the operating costs of a smaller business, Stoke City Holdings PLC. They did not buy the club out of sentiment (or not fully anyway ) they did it because it still makes them money and is sound business sense to do so and whilst that remains the case you can guarantee that nothing will change regardless of Denise's feelings on the matter. The more money you have the more you make.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 11, 2021 13:32:53 GMT
I am talking in practical terms of what happens when a company is taken over, I have never known loans to be repaid in the way you suggest as its largely pointless, the selling company records a gain or loss on its investment (share capital and loans) against the sales price, for Stoke under almost any circumstances this will be a loss. Yes the family could decide to stop funding the club the outcome of that unless they get very likely is a reduced sales price. Peter's leaving is irrelevant its bet 365 that is funding the club not him, the increased involvement of Jon suggests this will continue as I said a greater risk is bet 365 floating and the club no longer being funded by them and then being reliant on the personal fortunes of the family. Yes and also the fact that Bet365 is run by Denise who as I understand it is none too happy with her father investing in Stoke after the way he was hounded out of the club the first time around. I suspect she has no sentiment at all for Stoke and only wants to keep Peter and Jon happy. How much of that is for her father and how much for her brother we don't know. I just wish people would look at Derby and realise how lucky we are as but for the grace of the gods (or the Coates) go we. I think that is probably an over pessimistic view of Denise's thoughts on Stoke. If she was as dubious about the club as you say she would not have been happy about her husband being an executive director of the club with responsibility for buildings and capital works. Huge though the losses appear to the likes of you and I, the total debt in the form of bet365 loans is rather less than Denise's gross income for 1 year!!!!!!
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Post by skemstokie on Aug 11, 2021 14:35:53 GMT
You surely can understand it though? The club must be in complete turmoil and they mustn't know if they're coming or going. Hardly any players at the club, being asked to sign valueless contracts etc. I feel for them in all honesty. At the end of the day it is their job and income. Everyone has a breaking point. I think we should all feel for them. Remember Mel Morris was a local businessman who wanted to help out his favourite football club which had not long ago been a Premier team but were now struggling to get back there. He now realises exactly how much money he is losing just trying to keep them afloat and suffering from ill health has decided to stop bankrolling them. He is paying the players wages from his own funds not the club's. For Morris read Coates and ask what would happen to Stoke if the Coates family reached the same conclusion. I think there is a bit too much gloating on here. I get dislike of a club but gloating about something which could just as easily happen to us is a bit too much like pride before a fall for my liking. I was taught as a lad to never wish ill on anyone and it has stayed with me through my life,thanks dad.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 11, 2021 14:36:13 GMT
I am talking in practical terms of what happens when a company is taken over, I have never known loans to be repaid in the way you suggest as its largely pointless, the selling company records a gain or loss on its investment (share capital and loans) against the sales price, for Stoke under almost any circumstances this will be a loss. Yes the family could decide to stop funding the club the outcome of that unless they get very likely is a reduced sales price. Peter's leaving is irrelevant its bet 365 that is funding the club not him, the increased involvement of Jon suggests this will continue as I said a greater risk is bet 365 floating and the club no longer being funded by them and then being reliant on the personal fortunes of the family. If it floated there are a whole number of options ie leave the entity in , take it out etc , create a trust as Jack Walker did , but one things fore sure money wouldnt be an issue if inclination wasn’t its the desire to prop up thats always a risk floated or not The football club is most likely always going to run at a loss or breakeven at best, any money going into the club would if bet 365 had floated be coming out of shareholders dividends so I don't see it staying part of the entity in those circumstances. You are right things could be put in place in those circumstances my point was more at present we have within reason unlimited funding subject to ffp, if that funding was coming out of someones bank account instead it might be less generous which isn't necessarily bad when you look at this years recruitment on a budget against Rowett playing championship manager.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 11, 2021 14:44:02 GMT
Yes and also the fact that Bet365 is run by Denise who as I understand it is none too happy with her father investing in Stoke after the way he was hounded out of the club the first time around. I suspect she has no sentiment at all for Stoke and only wants to keep Peter and Jon happy. How much of that is for her father and how much for her brother we don't know. I just wish people would look at Derby and realise how lucky we are as but for the grace of the gods (or the Coates) go we. As much as Denise may hate the club it is also works as a tax relief for Bet365 as part of the 365 profits are run into the operating costs of a smaller business, Stoke City Holdings PLC. They did not buy the club out of sentiment (or not fully anyway ) they did it because it still makes them money and is sound business sense to do so and whilst that remains the case you can guarantee that nothing will change regardless of Denise's feelings on the matter. The more money you have the more you make. Not this tax relief rubbish again, firstly yes the football club losses reduce the bet 365 group tax bill but that isn't that attractive put a million into Stoke they get zero profit but a tax credit of £190k against bet 365 profits so they lose £810k, put a million into bet 365 they make a profit of 5% or 7% or whatever so Stoke is not being run as a tax relief for bet 365........
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 11, 2021 14:54:08 GMT
I am talking in practical terms of what happens when a company is taken over, I have never known loans to be repaid in the way you suggest as its largely pointless, the selling company records a gain or loss on its investment (share capital and loans) against the sales price, for Stoke under almost any circumstances this will be a loss. Yes the family could decide to stop funding the club the outcome of that unless they get very likely is a reduced sales price. Peter's leaving is irrelevant its bet 365 that is funding the club not him, the increased involvement of Jon suggests this will continue as I said a greater risk is bet 365 floating and the club no longer being funded by them and then being reliant on the personal fortunes of the family. Yes and also the fact that Bet365 is run by Denise who as I understand it is none too happy with her father investing in Stoke after the way he was hounded out of the club the first time around. I suspect she has no sentiment at all for Stoke and only wants to keep Peter and Jon happy. How much of that is for her father and how much for her brother we don't know. I just wish people would look at Derby and realise how lucky we are as but for the grace of the gods (or the Coates) go we. We were fairly close to being in the position of Derby at the end of Coates Mk I and ironically could have been heading the same way at the end of icelanders reign, clubs of our size and Derby will always find a buyer when the price is right, Derby are struggling because they have sold the ground, have external loans and are losing money hand over fist each month, Derby's problem is I believe their finances are so bad administration may be the only way out unless Morris pays offs the debts before sale either way Morris is going to lose a lot more money, I don't wish derby any harm but I sure as fuck dont feel sorry for them.
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Post by Northy on Aug 11, 2021 15:18:46 GMT
Rumoured to have offered 37 year old Glenn Whelan a short term deal....... Wythenshawe Amateurs will not be happy
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Post by robwahlmann on Aug 11, 2021 15:27:58 GMT
I think it's sad to see any football club go out of business!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2021 15:46:14 GMT
I think it's sad to see any football club go out of business! Apart from Wolves.
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Post by robwahlmann on Aug 11, 2021 17:02:15 GMT
I think it's sad to see any football club go out of business! Apart from Wolves. Also Wolves!
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Post by dirtclod on Aug 11, 2021 17:09:56 GMT
I see two sides of this. No, I don't revel in watching another club get into trouble. At the same time, I wouldn't expect much sympathy coming from the environs of Wycombe.
Derby, (With Rooney's shenanigans added in) are in this situation for reasons of their own making. The EFL has had plenty of sympathy for them, otherwise that points reduction would have been immediate and they could have levied an insolvency-inducing fine.
They had time, but instead, hosted a multi-year circus of unrealistic and unsuitable buyers, assuming that there was a long queue poised to swoop in buy them out of trouble. And don't kid yourself, they weren't listening to anyone with sense - they already knew all the answers. Even if someone had come in and bought them, they'd still be headed into trouble.
Now they find themselves in a situation where decent buyers are taking a pass on the risk. I don't envy them, but don't ask me to lose any sleep over them either.
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Post by nottsover60 on Aug 11, 2021 18:18:42 GMT
I see two sides of this. No, I don't revel in watching another club get into trouble. At the same time, I wouldn't expect much sympathy coming from the environs of Wycombe. Derby, (With Rooney's shenanigans added in) are in this situation for reasons of their own making. The EFL has had plenty of sympathy for them, otherwise that points reduction would have been immediate and they could have levied an insolvency-inducing fine. They had time, but instead, hosted a multi-year circus of unrealistic and unsuitable buyers, assuming that there was a long queue poised to swoop in buy them out of trouble. And don't kid yourself, they weren't listening to anyone with sense - they already knew all the answers. Even if someone had come in and bought them, they'd still be headed into trouble. Now they find themselves in a situation where decent buyers are taking a pass on the risk. I don't envy them, but don't ask me to lose any sleep over them either. On the contrary, the EFL know that they cannot hand Derby a points deduction as Derby would appeal and win. I keep saying in a court of law the case against them would be thrown out and the EFL know it. Derby were underhand and annoyed a lot of clubs by trying to circumvent the rules by finding loopholes in the rules, but it was all legit and as I keep saying the EFL approved everything they did. It was only when clubs like Middlesborough started to threaten legal action that the EFL tried to save face by giving a nominal punishment to Derby to prevent it all coming out. Now the EFL are watching them like a hawk and from what I've been told would love to ruin Derby. For example every other club don't count u23's as players of professional standing even when they play regularly (For example neither Bursik nor Wilmot will be listed in Stoke's squad of 25). However the EFL are counting Derby's youth team who played against Salford last season when the first team squad were isolating because of covid. The EFL are saying that because those players have all played one match they have to count towards the quota they have given Derby of 18 players of professional standing.
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Post by terrybovril on Aug 11, 2021 18:22:33 GMT
We should count ourselves lucky we have the owners we have. I think we forget sometimes there are others much worse off. (They should have binned off Tony Scholes a long time ago however).
Of course there are better run clubs, but there are many worse.
Whoever thought making Wayne Rooney manager was anything but idiotic is beyond me 😂
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Post by dirtclod on Aug 11, 2021 20:46:12 GMT
I see two sides of this. No, I don't revel in watching another club get into trouble. At the same time, I wouldn't expect much sympathy coming from the environs of Wycombe. Derby, (With Rooney's shenanigans added in) are in this situation for reasons of their own making. The EFL has had plenty of sympathy for them, otherwise that points reduction would have been immediate and they could have levied an insolvency-inducing fine. They had time, but instead, hosted a multi-year circus of unrealistic and unsuitable buyers, assuming that there was a long queue poised to swoop in buy them out of trouble. And don't kid yourself, they weren't listening to anyone with sense - they already knew all the answers. Even if someone had come in and bought them, they'd still be headed into trouble. Now they find themselves in a situation where decent buyers are taking a pass on the risk. I don't envy them, but don't ask me to lose any sleep over them either. On the contrary, the EFL know that they cannot hand Derby a points deduction as Derby would appeal and win. I keep saying in a court of law the case against them would be thrown out and the EFL know it. Derby were underhand and annoyed a lot of clubs by trying to circumvent the rules by finding loopholes in the rules, but it was all legit and as I keep saying the EFL approved everything they did. It was only when clubs like Middlesborough started to threaten legal action that the EFL tried to save face by giving a nominal punishment to Derby to prevent it all coming out. Now the EFL are watching them like a hawk and from what I've been told would love to ruin Derby. For example every other club don't count u23's as players of professional standing even when they play regularly (For example neither Bursik nor Wilmot will be listed in Stoke's squad of 25). However the EFL are counting Derby's youth team who played against Salford last season when the first team squad were isolating because of covid. The EFL are saying that because those players have all played one match they have to count towards the quota they have given Derby of 18 players of professional standing. Reason number 245 then that the EFL should have it's own ass kicked. If it was so legit then why did the EFL back off when Middlesborough threatened legal action? Legit would mean no case. So are we saying that the EFL approved something that was NOT legit in the first place? (Preferential treatment) But making them count the U23 players because they filled in during the middle of a pandemic is ridiculous. Derby are the ones that took the loophole risk, they are the ones that hired Rooney and they are the ones that entertained "buyers" we all chuckled at from the very beginning.
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