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Post by OldStokie on Sept 10, 2022 20:04:40 GMT
The British constitution is the greatest piece of legal Catch 22 ever created The monarch is the most powerful person in the land just so long as they don't use it. If they do, parliament can take it away from them, yet parliament must seek their permission to create laws It's the most elegant check and balance and the role of the monarch is one of total contridction: wealth but no power, privileged but a public servant, freedom to live how they wish but forever in the public eye, free to have opinion but not allowed to express them openly, freedom to never work but always on duty, sovereignty over subjects but dedicated to serving, rooted in ritual and archaicly juxtaposed to the fragmented digital era A true embodiment of Ying and Yang in everyway To rid ourselves of this would be a catastrophe and create an existential crisis in a land full of those already obsessed with their identify. It opposes chaos through its order Brilliantly put. Checks and balances on both sides that actually works. OS.
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Post by toppercorner on Sept 10, 2022 21:55:51 GMT
On a humanist level, it's extremely sad that someone loved has died, and was apparently an actual decent human being. It's the entire establishment aspect that is utter bullshit.
I'm not trying to be contrary or purposefully disrespectful, but i find it so ludicrous that taxpayer funded billionaires 'chosen by god' should rule us and we should bow down to them.
I hate the "it's only a quid a year" argument. Someone else can pay mine and my entire extended family's in perpetuity then then if that's the case.
I also don't like the "they work hard" line either. It's utter bollocks. They're not teachers, nurses, doctors, firemen, coppers etc... They have people paid by the taxpayer do do all that menial stuff for them. They don't have to think about bills, or keeping a roof over their head, or nipping out to sainburys to go to the sale section, or try not to overspend at the petrol pumps. They doesn't sit there planning all the engagements that we ultimately foot the bill for.
It also leaves a bit of a taste in the mouth that one of her last major acts was to pay off her non-sex offender's son's victim, with £12m in cash so the family didn't have to expose any info in court.
I'm sorry, I really, genuinely don't want to piss anyone off, but I can't help how i feel.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Sept 10, 2022 22:01:39 GMT
On a humanist level, it's extremely sad that someone loved has died, and was apparently an actual decent human being. It's the entire establishment aspect that is utter bullshit. I'm not trying to be contrary or purposefully disrespectful, but i find it so ludicrous that taxpayer funded billionaires 'chosen by god' should rule us and we should bow down to them. I hate the "it's only a quid a year" argument. Someone else can pay mine and my entire extended family's in perpetuity then then if that's the case. I also don't like the "they work hard" line either. It's utter bollocks. They're not teachers, nurses, doctors, firemen, coppers etc... They have people paid by the taxpayer do do all that menial stuff for them. They don't have to think about bills, or keeping a roof over their head, or nipping out to sainburys to go to the sale section, or try not to overspend at the petrol pumps. They doesn't sit there planning all the engagements that we ultimately foot the bill for. It also leaves a bit of a taste in the mouth that one of her last major acts was to pay off her non-sex offender's son's victim, with £12m in cash so the family didn't have to expose any info in court. I'm sorry, I really, genuinely don't want to piss anyone off, but I can't help how i feel. You make some excellent points mate, I disagree with most of them but fair play to you for expressing your opinion in one fell swoop. I’m not being sarky by the way, I think you make a good argument👍🏻
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 10, 2022 22:34:50 GMT
Get them gone. Tomorrow.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 10, 2022 22:35:31 GMT
On a humanist level, it's extremely sad that someone loved has died, and was apparently an actual decent human being. It's the entire establishment aspect that is utter bullshit. I'm not trying to be contrary or purposefully disrespectful, but i find it so ludicrous that taxpayer funded billionaires 'chosen by god' should rule us and we should bow down to them. I hate the "it's only a quid a year" argument. Someone else can pay mine and my entire extended family's in perpetuity then then if that's the case. I also don't like the "they work hard" line either. It's utter bollocks. They're not teachers, nurses, doctors, firemen, coppers etc... They have people paid by the taxpayer do do all that menial stuff for them. They don't have to think about bills, or keeping a roof over their head, or nipping out to sainburys to go to the sale section, or try not to overspend at the petrol pumps. They doesn't sit there planning all the engagements that we ultimately foot the bill for. It also leaves a bit of a taste in the mouth that one of her last major acts was to pay off her non-sex offender's son's victim, with £12m in cash so the family didn't have to expose any info in court. I'm sorry, I really, genuinely don't want to piss anyone off, but I can't help how i feel. Outstanding.
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Post by themistocles on Sept 10, 2022 23:27:16 GMT
Can this not wait. Show some fucking respect.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Sept 11, 2022 6:54:23 GMT
Can this not wait. Show some fucking respect. Sad isn’t it. Regardless of how people feel about the monarchy now is not the time after the recent passing of a much loved lady. I’m sure none of those calling for monarchy to be dissolved have ever met her. It’s all about flexing their political muscles. It’s totally disrespectful. When people pass it’s about the individual not the family or history from 100s of years ago or when she was a child. There’s murderers who’d get less bile posted about them than our departed queen. People can have their pops at Andrew he deserves it but some of the comments made about the queen on social media over the past few days have been a disgrace and embarrassing. One day they might lose someone they love whether it’s family, close friend or hero perhaps then they may ponder over there behaviour / comments over the last few days. It’s so sad that there’s so much hatred around at the moment.
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Post by xchpotter on Sept 11, 2022 6:58:13 GMT
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Post by questionable on Sept 11, 2022 7:02:39 GMT
I haven’t got a problem with the “direct” Royal family but what really annoys me is all the hangers on and now some bullshit Queen consent title, scandalous.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Sept 11, 2022 7:13:45 GMT
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Post by andystokey on Sept 11, 2022 7:32:09 GMT
On a humanist level, it's extremely sad that someone loved has died, and was apparently an actual decent human being. It's the entire establishment aspect that is utter bullshit. I'm not trying to be contrary or purposefully disrespectful, but i find it so ludicrous that taxpayer funded billionaires 'chosen by god' should rule us and we should bow down to them. I hate the "it's only a quid a year" argument. Someone else can pay mine and my entire extended family's in perpetuity then then if that's the case. I also don't like the "they work hard" line either. It's utter bollocks. They're not teachers, nurses, doctors, firemen, coppers etc... They have people paid by the taxpayer do do all that menial stuff for them. They don't have to think about bills, or keeping a roof over their head, or nipping out to sainburys to go to the sale section, or try not to overspend at the petrol pumps. They doesn't sit there planning all the engagements that we ultimately foot the bill for. It also leaves a bit of a taste in the mouth that one of her last major acts was to pay off her non-sex offender's son's victim, with £12m in cash so the family didn't have to expose any info in court. I'm sorry, I really, genuinely don't want to piss anyone off, but I can't help how i feel. I've been here philosophically, in fact for many years, but one of my thoughts about the current status quo is that if you decide to get rid you do need to replace it well. The head of state is an important role in a successful democracy and it costs money. It costs money to provide all the administrative acts that privy council, aldermen etc. perform so firstly there is no way you ever get your £1.29 back sadly. In fact an alternative would probably drain more and in a corrupt way. My intuitive tendency is a republican model but in the last 20 years I've come to watch the British democratic process fail us all and the thought of another elective role fills me with dread. In my view a replacement system that is democratic has a lot of failings. Firstly when anyone puts themselves up for any role they do so for some gain and they have strong views, moral or political. Any system of voting for a head if stare that encourages populism or political views seems wrong to me. It will suffer the same problems that the second chamber does. Even an elected representative like David Attenborough as head of state he would have his views twisted on the world stage to be pro climate change or something. The Queen has been our national representative for 70 years and I doubt anyone could tell you her views politically on any subject. She has met all leaders without fear or favour. Secondly there is something reassuring that the head of state is a diplomat for life and not just a term. The Queen has consistently represented the position and culture of the UK and commonwealth for 70 years as politicians of our Parliament and others come and go. The longevity of her lifetime diplomacy seems an essential part of a successful system of head of state. In fact on multiple occasions she bailed out the government of the day for its stupidity e.g. the visit to America after Suez. She rebuilt the relationship after Eden's unilateral war in Egypt.The recurring re-invention of head of state via election is politically troubling to me. Thirdly your point about scandal and the luck of birth to find the right candidate is a good one. I would say in the last 100 years some self regulation has occurred. This regulation has in the main been a reflection of the acceptance by the Roysl family that they need to ultimately be head of state by consent. The PM and privy Council control the monarch in that regard. The abdication of Edward whilst ostensibly about his choice of spouse and latterly his blatant support of Nazism a case in point. I think this part of monarchy could be strengthened by the government. However since Victoria almost without exception the Royals have been decent candidates. That might be luck or it could be the system. I think the Queen knew Andrew could never be monarch even by unfortunate circumstances and has moved to protect the process. In Charles and probably William I see nothing but two men who have been trained their whole life to be heads of state. Perhaps unlike a four year representative from a different polital elite. They in my view will represent the country in a good light and their positions will mirror the British people by generation because of the relationship between them the people and the government. Now don't get me wrong my position is essentially Republican but in the last years I've been more cynical of the position that abolition of the monarchy is simple. I'd agree on the face of it it us anachronistic but weirdly if you set that aside there is no denying it actually works quite well. It allows us all to concentrate on Government and trust that head of state "just works". The anachronism seems to be the part that once upset me and still doesn't sit well with many others. However there are many disgusting oligarchs who are rich and from family wealth for me to sort out ahead of the Royals. I also have more of an axe to grind with people who put themselves up for power selfishly than those that had it thrust upon them as an accident of birth. I'm happy to debate the subject without emotion but the oversimplification of positions on both sides doesn't wash in reality, I need to hear about viable alternatives at my age.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 7:50:49 GMT
Our future King is a really good man, and he will be a great head of state when Charles hands over the crown.
While I'm not a fierce royalist, I like the fact we have our traditions and our monarchy, it's what sets us apart from everyone else. Other countries have royalty, but we do it properly and that makes me proud.
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 11, 2022 8:49:04 GMT
It appears that nothing unites a nation apart from maybe a common aggressor/enemy.
Religion, politics, constitution are subjects with millions of points of view down to each individual. I'm certain there is no model fits all, and am totally opposed to anyone imposing their model on the rest of society which happens in many countries.
We are where we are, and my final argument in favour of our present constitution is that it is not written in stone, but living and evolving unlike many others. The monarchy has changed a huge amount under the Queen (she will always be "the Queen" to me), and it will evolve further under Charles and William in the future.
So those opposed to the system can continue to have their say and their views will be absorbed over time as the constitution evolves.
However I think the present outpouring of grief by the nations she reigned over, and condolences of the rest of the world, including Macron's kind words and Germany's illuminated gesture and even Putin nodding his respect for her, demonstrates we have a good system that lifts our place in the world. We risk at our peril making any precipitant change. Let it evolve, I say.
The corruption of politicians of all persuasions is endemic throughout the world, and we are best distancing them from affairs of state as much as practicable. I have strong reservation for example about Truss going on a national tour with the King.
God Save The King
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Post by maninasuitcase on Sept 11, 2022 9:38:48 GMT
The Monarchy Or President Truss
Think about that for second.
Im in favour of the monarchy. Im not ashamed to say i shed a tear when the Queen passed. It was like losing a family member.
I never shed a tear at previous prime ministers or politicians who've passed as they are all self centred corrupt twats.
I agree that only the successors to the throne and those who have represented the country in a positive light, ie Princess Anne, should represent the country, and all the hangers on should be taken off the payroll, but i would never want it abolished.
William will be a great king when its his turn and i hope i get to see his ascension to the throne.
God bless the Queen God save the King
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 11, 2022 9:51:32 GMT
It makes no sense to.
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Post by maninasuitcase on Sept 11, 2022 10:01:38 GMT
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Sept 11, 2022 10:04:48 GMT
The Monarchy Or President Truss Think about that for second. Im in favour of the monarchy. Im not ashamed to say i shed a tear when the Queen passed. It was like losing a family member. I never shed a tear at previous prime ministers or politicians who've passed as they are all self centred corrupt twats. I agree that only the successors to the throne and those who have represented the country in a positive light, ie Princess Anne, should represent the country, and all the hangers on should be taken off the payroll, but i would never want it abolished. William will be a great king when its his turn and i hope i get to see his ascension to the throne. God bless the Queen God save the King I don't have to think about it. It's not a binary option. I come at this from a position that is essentially Republican - if you were starting a country from scratch the last thing you would consider is appointing a King/Queen. But we're not - we have 1000+ years of monarchic tradition and that's reflected in popular opinion - which consistently shows preference for retaining a monarchy and (60-75%) and only 20% in favour of a Republic with an elected head of state. As a citizen I have to respect that and acknowledge that any democratic republican campaign would be doomed to failure any time soon. That doesn't mean it has to sit comfortably with me though. It's still a throwback to fealty, entitlement, priviledge through birthright and oppression. They'll be there but discussion, in my opinion, should be less about abolition and more about transparency and value for money to the taxpayer. If these people are, as they claim, serving the nation they should effectively have job descriptions and their performance measured against it. I hope that some of the proposals Charles is kicking around make steps in this direction. Younger people (18-24) as you might expect - are less enamored. It would be nice to think that when they get to disussing the monarchy at the next major milestone (Accession of William?) it can be more informed than just the anecdotal ('ooh they do do much for the country", "they attract visitors") that seems to dominate todays exchanges.
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Post by andystokey on Sept 11, 2022 10:18:05 GMT
The Monarchy Or President Truss Think about that for second. Im in favour of the monarchy. Im not ashamed to say i shed a tear when the Queen passed. It was like losing a family member. I never shed a tear at previous prime ministers or politicians who've passed as they are all self centred corrupt twats. I agree that only the successors to the throne and those who have represented the country in a positive light, ie Princess Anne, should represent the country, and all the hangers on should be taken off the payroll, but i would never want it abolished. William will be a great king when its his turn and i hope i get to see his ascension to the throne. God bless the Queen God save the King I don't have to think about it. It's not a binary option. I come at this from a position that is essentially Republican - if you were starting a country from scratch the last thing you would consider is appointing a King/Queen. But we're not - we have 1000+ years of monarchic tradition and that's reflected in popular opinion - which consistently shows preference for retaining a monarchy and (60-75%) and only 20% in favour of a Republic with an elected head of state. As a citizen I have to respect that and acknowledge that any democratic republican campaign would be doomed to failure any time soon. That doesn't mean it has to sit comfortably with me though. It's still a throwback to fealty, entitlement, priviledge through birthright and oppression.They'll be there but discussion, in my opinion, should be less about abolition and more about transparency and value for money to the taxpayer. If these people are, as they claim, serving the nation they should effectively have job descriptions and their performance measured against it. I hope that some of the proposals Charles is kicking around make steps in this direction. Younger people (18-24) as you might expect - are less enamored. It would be nice to think that when they get to disussing the monarchy at the next major milestone (Accession of William?) it can be more informed than just the anecdotal ('ooh they do do much for the country", "they attract visitors") that seems to dominate todays exchanges. That point above highlighted I always thought myself. Yesterday's visible process of accession actually gave me a different view. It reaffirmed for me the Cromwellian act of removal of the monarch's power. Much of it involved the privy council agreeing to who is their chosen head of state. Charles basically had to reaffirm giving up his lands in return for a purse from the government. He also had to reaffirm never to meddle. One could look at the ceremonial aspect as a reminder of who is now in charge. I have no doubt that Charles will reduce the monarchy in size and will gradually modernise and shrink as he has often stated. The one thing I would like to see is s removal of the male entitlement in favour of a first born. In my opinion the Queens have always been better than the men with all their frailties.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Sept 11, 2022 10:20:52 GMT
I don't have to think about it. It's not a binary option. I come at this from a position that is essentially Republican - if you were starting a country from scratch the last thing you would consider is appointing a King/Queen. But we're not - we have 1000+ years of monarchic tradition and that's reflected in popular opinion - which consistently shows preference for retaining a monarchy and (60-75%) and only 20% in favour of a Republic with an elected head of state. As a citizen I have to respect that and acknowledge that any democratic republican campaign would be doomed to failure any time soon. That doesn't mean it has to sit comfortably with me though. It's still a throwback to fealty, entitlement, priviledge through birthright and oppression.They'll be there but discussion, in my opinion, should be less about abolition and more about transparency and value for money to the taxpayer. If these people are, as they claim, serving the nation they should effectively have job descriptions and their performance measured against it. I hope that some of the proposals Charles is kicking around make steps in this direction. Younger people (18-24) as you might expect - are less enamored. It would be nice to think that when they get to disussing the monarchy at the next major milestone (Accession of William?) it can be more informed than just the anecdotal ('ooh they do do much for the country", "they attract visitors") that seems to dominate todays exchanges. That point above highlighted I always thought myself. Yesterday's visible process of accession actually gave me a different view. It reaffirmed for me the Cromwellian act of removal of the monarch's power. Much of it involved the privy council agreeing to who is their chosen head of state. Charles basically had to reaffirm giving up his lands in return for a purse from the government. He also had to reaffirm never to meddle. One could look at the ceremonial aspect as a reminder of who is now in charge. I have no doubt that Charles will reduce the monarchy in size and will gradually modernise and shrink as he has often stated. The one thing I would like to see is s removal of the male entitlement in favour of a first born. In my opinion the Queens have always been better than the men with all their frailties. It would be a simple signal of a shift to modernity. I think I'm right in saying male entitlement has already been removed Andy. Charlotte sits ahead of Louis in line to the throne.
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Post by knype on Sept 11, 2022 10:23:40 GMT
What a surprise, disgusting
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Post by andystokey on Sept 11, 2022 10:24:38 GMT
That point above highlighted I always thought myself. Yesterday's visible process of accession actually gave me a different view. It reaffirmed for me the Cromwellian act of removal of the monarch's power. Much of it involved the privy council agreeing to who is their chosen head of state. Charles basically had to reaffirm giving up his lands in return for a purse from the government. He also had to reaffirm never to meddle. One could look at the ceremonial aspect as a reminder of who is now in charge. I have no doubt that Charles will reduce the monarchy in size and will gradually modernise and shrink as he has often stated. The one thing I would like to see is s removal of the male entitlement in favour of a first born. In my opinion the Queens have always been better than the men with all their frailties. It would be a simple signal of a shift to modernity. I think I'm right in saying male entitlement has already been removed Andy. Charlotte sits ahead of Louis in line to the throne. Yep you're right www.bbc.com/news/uk-15492607
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 11, 2022 10:50:10 GMT
What a surprise, disgusting You're under the misapprehension that I actually care about your opinion.....
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Post by knype on Sept 11, 2022 11:02:36 GMT
What a surprise, disgusting You're under the misapprehension that I actually care about your opinion..... Just shows what you are
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Post by Eggybread on Sept 11, 2022 11:17:06 GMT
They should all go every last one of them and whilst they're at it take their bull shit religion with them.
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Post by themistocles on Sept 11, 2022 11:18:57 GMT
Let me know when one of your elderly relatives die. I'll then create a thread that very day to argue about cancelling everything they stood for. I don't know you personally but judging by your views on this board your an absolute loser in life aren't you.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 11, 2022 11:26:38 GMT
Let me know when one of your elderly relatives die. I'll then create a thread that very day to argue about cancelling everything they stood for. I don't know you personally but judging by your views on this board your an absolute loser in life aren't you. Hilarious and poor gaslighting.
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Post by knype on Sept 11, 2022 11:34:34 GMT
Let me know when one of your elderly relatives die. I'll then create a thread that very day to argue about cancelling everything they stood for. I don't know you personally but judging by your views on this board your an absolute loser in life aren't you. The left love everyone but the English...
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Post by yeswilko on Sept 11, 2022 14:15:21 GMT
Let me know when one of your elderly relatives die. I'll then create a thread that very day to argue about cancelling everything they stood for. I don't know you personally but judging by your views on this board your an absolute loser in life aren't you. The left love everyone but the English... Who you refer to as "English" will massively vary depending on the colour of their skin and social status though innit bruv..
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Post by werrington on Sept 11, 2022 16:00:30 GMT
Let me know when one of your elderly relatives die. I'll then create a thread that very day to argue about cancelling everything they stood for. I don't know you personally but judging by your views on this board your an absolute loser in life aren't you. The left love everyone but the English... Sorry mate, I’m as left as they come and I love my country ….loving your country and not a fan of the monarchy can be separated Also “the left” have cancelled all their planned strikes in sympathy for the queen and in order to get people to London this weekend I’d have a bit of a rethink over your statement 👍
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Post by thevoid on Sept 11, 2022 16:11:45 GMT
Let me know when one of your elderly relatives die. I'll then create a thread that very day to argue about cancelling everything they stood for. I don't know you personally but judging by your views on this board your an absolute loser in life aren't you. The left love everyone but the English... Billy Bragg dislikes this
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