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Post by mickeythemaestro on Dec 17, 2020 13:25:03 GMT
Which is why I said to him definitions will vary, because they do. Yet he claims taking the knee has NEVER been defined as an act of submission. See, I am prepared to be flexible, he however has a myopic view which he likes to hold everyone accountable to. I am suspecting he is disingenuous. My feeling is you both just have a different interpretation...which definitely happens! But he is saying very clearly that kneeling has NEVER been seen as an act of submission. I am currently waiting for him to prove this to be the case. I think he's set a very high bar that he has no chance of jumping. But lets see what he comes up with..................
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 17, 2020 13:27:25 GMT
My feeling is you both just have a different interpretation...which definitely happens! But he is saying very clearly that kneeling has NEVER been seen as an act of submission. I am currently waiting for him to prove this to be the case. I think he's set a very high bar that he has no chance of jumping. But lets see what he comes up with.................. My guess would be something along the lines of deflect, deny and discredit it's his Mo
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Post by RAF on Dec 17, 2020 13:29:58 GMT
I'd say reading a dictionary is a whole lot more educational than trying to educate myself via the BBC. But hey its just my opinion :D It's informing you on a definition of a word not a subject. That's like giving me the dictionary definition of Religion or Politics and telling me you've got it nailed. Just daft. So it absolutely is education then? Thanks for clearing that up. H :)
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 17, 2020 13:30:23 GMT
They are not all kneeling so they clearly were not forced, or under instruction to do it. Whether they should is a separate debate. Is it right that our Police Service are seen to be submitting to a political organisation ? I would need to ask them what their intentions were tbh to make any qualified judgement. Otherwise, I think there are several interpretations one could possibly draw from it One could be, they were just trying to re-assure the community they were interacting with that they distinguish themselves from the kind of policing in the USA that led to heightened tensions in the community they are working with. That could be thought of as good policing. Responsive to the context they are working, and maybe it was successful. I don't know. I don't know the story. This is just an example of one possible interpretation. I.e I am not presenting as a fact, or saying this is the only conclusion that can be drawn. That is of course speculative on my part because a) I wasn't there and b) I'm not convinced it always constructive to make assumptions on decontextualised content. But I would say, I'm quite confident you will have different interpretation.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Dec 17, 2020 13:31:07 GMT
But he is saying very clearly that kneeling has NEVER been seen as an act of submission. I am currently waiting for him to prove this to be the case. I think he's set a very high bar that he has no chance of jumping. But lets see what he comes up with.................. My guess would be something along the lines of deflect, deny and discredit it's his Mo I'm giving him a chance. I've been put in my place many times before. Can't see where he's going with this one though. I am excited to find out
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 17, 2020 13:33:22 GMT
My guess would be something along the lines of deflect, deny and discredit it's his Mo I'm giving him a chance. I've been put in my place many times before. Can't see where he's going with this one though. I am excited to find out Who do you think the players are submitting to? * *Warning, you may not be able to find this in a dictionary
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Post by dutchstokie on Dec 17, 2020 13:34:49 GMT
My guess would be something along the lines of deflect, deny and discredit it's his Mo I'm giving him a chance. I've been put in my place many times before. Can't see where he's going with this one though. I am excited to find out I can answer that one for you....... round and round and round and round and round and round........and round and round
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 17, 2020 13:34:58 GMT
My guess would be something along the lines of deflect, deny and discredit it's his Mo I'm giving him a chance. I've been put in my place many times before. Can't see where he's going with this one though. I am excited to find out You and the usual suspects are just to lazy to read into the history of taking the knee. A dictionary definition! Fuck me!
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Post by RAF on Dec 17, 2020 13:36:58 GMT
I'm giving him a chance. I've been put in my place many times before. Can't see where he's going with this one though. I am excited to find out :D You and the usual suspects are just to lazy to read into the history of taking the knee. A dictionary definition! Fuck me! :D Too. Education H :)
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 17, 2020 13:41:15 GMT
You and the usual suspects are just to lazy to read into the history of taking the knee. A dictionary definition! Fuck me! Too. Education H I also spelt dictionary wrong in the initial post 😀
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Post by thegooddoctor on Dec 17, 2020 13:45:17 GMT
Gawd.
This is a truly depressing thread for two key reasons:
1) 23 pages (and more) of argument over a symbolic gesture that - as Les Ferdinand has rightly pointed out - has long outlived its limited political efficacy.
2) You just know the self-same argument is taking place on every football forum in the country.
I just love the smell of impasse in the morning...
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Post by RAF on Dec 17, 2020 14:01:33 GMT
I also spelt dictionary wrong in the initial post 😀 Fcuiking Ricidulous! H :)
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Dec 17, 2020 14:07:32 GMT
I'm giving him a chance. I've been put in my place many times before. Can't see where he's going with this one though. I am excited to find out You and the usual suspects are just to lazy to read into the history of taking the knee. A dictionary definition! Fuck me! Depends whose history you want to pick and choose to suit whatever narrative it is one is trying to push. But without any googling I will imagine that when people got on their knees in front of Henry VIII he most certainly liked to think they were submitting to him. But you still haven't explained how kneeling has NEVER been seen as a form of submission. Come on I have admitted I am wrong on many occasions. Are you sure you can't just say you over shot the mark slightly. I don't expect an apology, I'm not mean
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Dec 17, 2020 14:11:50 GMT
The only reason I can think of as to why our players kneel before kick off is to imagine that Michael O’Neill is standing in front of them😏
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Dec 17, 2020 14:13:36 GMT
Gawd. This is a truly depressing thread for two key reasons: 1) 23 pages (and more) of argument over a symbolic gesture that - as Les Ferdinand has rightly pointed out - has long outlived its limited political efficacy. 2) You just know the self-same argument is taking place on every football forum in the country. I just love the smell of impasse in the morning... Its just lively debate. And on the whole it has been done is good spirit I think Apart from Momo telling me I am not very clever and a bit of a bigot
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Dec 17, 2020 14:23:24 GMT
Gawd. This is a truly depressing thread for two key reasons: 1) 23 pages (and more) of argument over a symbolic gesture that - as Les Ferdinand has rightly pointed out - has long outlived its limited political efficacy. 2) You just know the self-same argument is taking place on every football forum in the country. I just love the smell of impasse in the morning... Its just lively debate. And on the whole it has been done is good spirit I think Apart from Momo telling me I am not very clever and a bit of a bigot If you’re after a t shirt you’ll have to up the ante as the cut off for Christmas delivery is tomorrow😉
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 17, 2020 14:36:54 GMT
You and the usual suspects are just to lazy to read into the history of taking the knee. A dictionary definition! Fuck me! Depends whose history you want to pick and choose to suit whatever narrative it is one is trying to push. But without any googling I will imagine that when people got on their knees in front of Henry VIII he most certainly liked to think they were submitting to him. But you still haven't explained how kneeling has NEVER been seen as a form of submission. Come on I have admitted I am wrong on many occasions. Are you sure you can't just say you over shot the mark slightly. I don't expect an apology, I'm not mean Oh come on you're just being daft now. We're talking about taking the knee on a thread about footballers taking the knee and you said it was an act of submission. Now, again, who are the players submitting to?
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 17, 2020 14:42:11 GMT
Gawd. This is a truly depressing thread for two key reasons: 1) 23 pages (and more) of argument over a symbolic gesture that - as Les Ferdinand has rightly pointed out - has long outlived its limited political efficacy. 2) You just know the self-same argument is taking place on every football forum in the country. I just love the smell of impasse in the morning... I take it you didn't see the first thread that was binned then. Actually this has been a massive improvement on the other one, in a much better spirit overall, even if many of us get a bit hysterical and wound up from time to time.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Dec 17, 2020 14:42:37 GMT
I'm giving him a chance. I've been put in my place many times before. Can't see where he's going with this one though. I am excited to find out Who do you think the players are submitting to? * *Warning, you may not be able to find this in a dictionary Yep couldn't find it in the dictionary. But I suspect they as individuals are doing it for a variety of reasons. But I would like to think the general consensus was that they don't like seeing players being racially abused because of their colour. However I think preserving their handsome salaries was a big factor in making any decisions. Agent said do it so I did. But as I have said a number of times now the messaging got very confused because of the inability of the likes of the BBC to explain exactly what was going on. It might have worked on those who don't bother thinking before they join in but to people who are slightly more sceptical it didn't work because they are wanting to find a bit more before they submit themselves to a political organisation. And when they did a bit of research on the organisation a fair percentage thought I don't like this group even though I agree with their banner line. Maybe being sceptical is a new form of bigotry. But to answer your question I hope they don't feel they are submitting to anyone as I don't like to think that people feel coerced into submitting to anything. If they feel that they are just supporting their mates then I have said all along I am ok with that. Blame the media for the confusion not people who like to think about the whole thing a bit deeper than your average sheep.
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 17, 2020 14:45:06 GMT
Its just lively debate. And on the whole it has been done is good spirit I think Apart from Momo telling me I am not very clever and a bit of a bigot If you’re after a t shirt you’ll have to up the ante as the cut off for Christmas delivery is tomorrow😉 I will send him some of mine I have a wardrobe full tbf they are pretty wank cheap foreign rubbish
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 17, 2020 14:49:47 GMT
Who do you think the players are submitting to? * *Warning, you may not be able to find this in a dictionary Yep couldn't find it in the dictionary. But I suspect they as individuals are doing it for a variety of reasons. But I would like to think the general consensus was that they don't like seeing players being racially abused because of their colour. However I think preserving their handsome salaries was a big factor in making any decisions. Agent said do it so I did. But as I have said a number of times now the messaging got very confused because of the inability of the likes of the BBC to explain exactly what was going on. It might have worked on those who don't bother thinking before they join in but to people who are slightly more sceptical it didn't work because they are wanting to find a bit more before they submit themselves to a political organisation. And when they did a bit of research on the organisation a fair percentage thought I don't like this group even though I agree with their banner line. Maybe being sceptical is a new form of bigotry. But to answer your question I hope they don't feel they are submitting to anyone as I don't like to think that people feel coerced into submitting to anything. If they feel that they are just supporting their mates then I have said all along I am ok with that. Blame the media for the confusion not people who like to think about the whole thing a bit deeper than your average sheep. That final sentence could easily read, 'not people who are in denial or wilfully misrepresent the level of racism in this country and aren't really interested in change'
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 17, 2020 14:50:38 GMT
Gawd. This is a truly depressing thread for two key reasons: 1) 23 pages (and more) of argument over a symbolic gesture that - as Les Ferdinand has rightly pointed out - has long outlived its limited political efficacy. 2) You just know the self-same argument is taking place on every football forum in the country. I just love the smell of impasse in the morning... Its just lively debate. And on the whole it has been done is good spirit I think Apart from Momo telling me I am not very clever and a bit of a bigot What a shock more personal abuse with no repercussions amazing isn't it
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 17, 2020 14:55:53 GMT
Its just lively debate. And on the whole it has been done is good spirit I think Apart from Momo telling me I am not very clever and a bit of a bigot What a shock more personal abuse with no repercussions amazing isn't it Feel free to go and find any personal abuse on this thread. There's been some mild piss taking on both sides. You just wont rest, making things up, stalking me and crying to admin, until you get me banned. Pretty pathetic for a presumably grown man really.
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Post by thevoid on Dec 17, 2020 15:32:32 GMT
What a shock more personal abuse with no repercussions amazing isn't it Feel free to go and find any personal abuse on this thread. There's been some mild piss taking on both sides. You're just wont rest, making things up, stalking me and crying to admin, until you get me banned. Pretty pathetic for a presumably grown man really. It's probably as daft as your vest/playbook meme if we're being honest.
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Post by RAF on Dec 17, 2020 15:38:50 GMT
Gawd. This is a truly depressing thread for two key reasons: 1) 23 pages (and more) of argument over a symbolic gesture that - as Les Ferdinand has rightly pointed out - has long outlived its limited political efficacy. 2) You just know the self-same argument is taking place on every football forum in the country. I just love the smell of impasse in the morning... I take it you didn't see the first thread that was binned then. Actually this has been a massive improvement on the other one, in a much better spirit overall, even if many of us get a bit hysterical and wound up from time to time. I agree and in general apart from a few posts it's been pretty respectful regardless of views which is probably an Oatcake first? :) H
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 17, 2020 15:40:06 GMT
Like these "police officers" there to up hold the law or submit to a political organisation ? View Attachment
They are not all kneeling so they clearly were not forced, or under instruction to do it. Whether they should is a separate debate. From Truly News amongst others:
Police officers in the UK have been advised by their superiors to ‘take a knee’ in front of Black Lives Matter protesters and warned there’ll be drawbacks if they refused to do so.
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 17, 2020 15:51:43 GMT
They are not all kneeling so they clearly were not forced, or under instruction to do it. Whether they should is a separate debate. From Truly News amongst others:
Police officers in the UK have been advised by their superiors to ‘take a knee’ in front of Black Lives Matter protesters and warned there’ll be drawbacks if they refused to do so.
So the one's who weren't kneeling? Any specific details on these 'drawbacks'?
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Dec 17, 2020 15:53:30 GMT
Yep couldn't find it in the dictionary. But I suspect they as individuals are doing it for a variety of reasons. But I would like to think the general consensus was that they don't like seeing players being racially abused because of their colour. However I think preserving their handsome salaries was a big factor in making any decisions. Agent said do it so I did. But as I have said a number of times now the messaging got very confused because of the inability of the likes of the BBC to explain exactly what was going on. It might have worked on those who don't bother thinking before they join in but to people who are slightly more sceptical it didn't work because they are wanting to find a bit more before they submit themselves to a political organisation. And when they did a bit of research on the organisation a fair percentage thought I don't like this group even though I agree with their banner line. Maybe being sceptical is a new form of bigotry. But to answer your question I hope they don't feel they are submitting to anyone as I don't like to think that people feel coerced into submitting to anything. If they feel that they are just supporting their mates then I have said all along I am ok with that. Blame the media for the confusion not people who like to think about the whole thing a bit deeper than your average sheep. That final sentence could easily read, 'not people who are in denial or wilfully misrepresent the level of racism in this country and aren't really interested in change' It could, you are indeed correct. But it wouldn't encapsulate how ALL people view it. To see it like that would be a bit of a stereotype. Which I am fairly certain you will find is a form of discrimination (I'll check my dictionary shortly ). Now you wouldn't want to be doing any of that I am sure. Surely only bigots stereotype an entire group of people. So on the basis you wouldn't engage in any form of stereotyping it would follow that you can indeed accept that not ALL people who have a bit of an issue with the whole knee bending and the BLM organisation are bigots. Would that be a fair conclusion?
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 17, 2020 16:06:30 GMT
From Truly News amongst others:
Police officers in the UK have been advised by their superiors to ‘take a knee’ in front of Black Lives Matter protesters and warned there’ll be drawbacks if they refused to do so.
So the one's who weren't kneeling? Any specific details on these 'drawbacks'? No idea you would need to ask their superiors, could be on traffic duty ! doesn't seem right to me Police Officers who's colleagues were attacked and injured by BLM protesters at other BLM protests being advised to take a subservient gesture to protesters, would they be doing this in front of far right protesters do you believe ?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 17, 2020 16:13:28 GMT
That final sentence could easily read, 'not people who are in denial or wilfully misrepresent the level of racism in this country and aren't really interested in change' It could, you are indeed correct. But it wouldn't encapsulate how ALL people view it. To see it like that would be a bit of a stereotype. Which I am fairly certain you will find is a form of discrimination (I'll check my dictionary shortly ). Now you wouldn't want to be doing any of that I am sure. Surely only bigots stereotype an entire group of people. So on the basis you wouldn't engage in any form of stereotyping it would follow that you can indeed accept that not ALL people who have a bit of an issue with the whole knee bending and the BLM organisation are bigots. Would that be a fair conclusion? A 'bit of an issue' is a very interesting turn of phrase and lets not re-write history here, it's you who is framing this as these brave libertarian warriors thinking for themselves against ‘the sheep’ as you put it and lets not re-write history further, there were pages and pages of this thread debating whether this was one of the most tolerant countries in the world. This is of course with the express aim of belittling the need for any kind of protest in the first place, let alone taking the knee. I don’t think that those that have a ‘bit (snigger) of an issue’ with it are necessarily bigoted but their explanations are extremely lame and incoherent and in some cases transparent.
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