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Post by danceswithclams on Oct 25, 2021 13:03:05 GMT
So, who is not on board now? I think the problem is the club's very nicey nicey, the owners are nice, players get paid on time, the money is always there Think you might be onto something here... In my experience, not paying people on time (or indeed at all) is a surefire way of getting them onside and motivated to do their best for their employer. I'm going to put this on LinkedIn and see if anyone offers me a TED Talk.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 25, 2021 13:11:46 GMT
Rowett signed players for us that weren't suited to the way he plays football.
Nothing but his fault.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 25, 2021 17:35:58 GMT
Give me Rowett over Hughes, Jones and Lambert any day You can't be serious.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Oct 25, 2021 19:54:50 GMT
Give me Rowett over Hughes, Jones and Lambert any day You can't be serious. The Hughes bit is just daft but Jones and Lambert are close runs…
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 26, 2021 6:53:34 GMT
You can't be serious. The Hughes bit is just daft but Jones and Lambert are close runs… Both Jones and Lambert have achieved more in management than Rowett. Rowett was an absolute disaster for Stoke City. £60million on shite.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2021 12:45:53 GMT
Rowett signed players for us that weren't suited to the way he plays football. Nothing but his fault. You are definitely a hundred percent right with your first point You might be a hundred percent right on your second point , then again you might not MoN can get Northern Ireland to play like a Michael o Neil team ( passionate and resilient ) but not stoke NJ can get Luton to play like a Nathan Jones team but not stoke Rowett can get Millwall to play like a Gary Rowett team but not stoke Three managers on the bounce , can run another team their way , but not stoke .
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 26, 2021 12:59:05 GMT
Rowett signed players for us that weren't suited to the way he plays football. Nothing but his fault. You are definitely a hundred percent right with your first point You might be a hundred percent right on your second point , then again you might not MoN can get Northern Ireland to play like a Michael o Neil team ( passionate and resilient ) but not stoke NJ can get Luton to play like a Nathan Jones team but not stoke Rowett can get Millwall to play like a Gary Rowett team but not stoke Three managers on the bounce , can run another team their way , but not stoke . I've explained to you exactly what's wrong with this take.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 26, 2021 13:44:28 GMT
Rowett signed players for us that weren't suited to the way he plays football. Nothing but his fault. You are definitely a hundred percent right with your first point You might be a hundred percent right on your second point , then again you might not MoN can get Northern Ireland to play like a Michael o Neil team ( passionate and resilient ) but not stoke NJ can get Luton to play like a Nathan Jones team but not stoke Rowett can get Millwall to play like a Gary Rowett team but not stoke Three managers on the bounce , can run another team their way , but not stoke . MON wants us to be a passing side. We are playing how he wants us to. Jones was just fucking useless. The job was way too big for him and he pretty much had a mental breakdown because he couldn't deal with it. The issues were of his making, he overcomplicated what he was trying and signed players that didn't fit that. And the best player he signed in Nick Powell, he fell out with and didn't play. I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire personally but that might just be me. Again Rowett signed players that aren't suited to how he plays, that's on him!
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Post by spitthedog on Oct 26, 2021 13:57:31 GMT
You are definitely a hundred percent right with your first point You might be a hundred percent right on your second point , then again you might not MoN can get Northern Ireland to play like a Michael o Neil team ( passionate and resilient ) but not stoke NJ can get Luton to play like a Nathan Jones team but not stoke Rowett can get Millwall to play like a Gary Rowett team but not stoke Three managers on the bounce , can run another team their way , but not stoke . MON wants us to be a passing side. We are playing how he wants us to. Jones was just fucking useless. The job was way too big for him and he pretty much had a mental breakdown because he couldn't deal with it. The issues were of his making, he overcomplicated what he was trying and signed players that didn't fit that. And the best player he signed in Nick Powell, he fell out with and didn't play. I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire personally but that might just be me. Again Rowett signed players that aren't suited to how he plays, that's on him! I just think Rowett spent money at Stoke like he'd won the lottery. He was out of his mind and depth. He's got nothing to gamble with at Millwall. We would have probably done better with him if there hadn't been a budget. At the same time both Jones and Rowett had to deal with some massive egos around the place and failed spectacularly in that respect too.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 26, 2021 14:15:00 GMT
MON wants us to be a passing side. We are playing how he wants us to. Jones was just fucking useless. The job was way too big for him and he pretty much had a mental breakdown because he couldn't deal with it. The issues were of his making, he overcomplicated what he was trying and signed players that didn't fit that. And the best player he signed in Nick Powell, he fell out with and didn't play. I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire personally but that might just be me. Again Rowett signed players that aren't suited to how he plays, that's on him! I just think Rowett spent money at Stoke like he'd won the lottery. He was out of his mind and depth. He's got nothing to gamble with at Millwall. We would have probably done better with him if there hadn't been a budget. At the same time both Jones and Rowett had to deal with some massive egos around the place and failed spectacularly in that respect too. Indeed both whilst being massive egos themselves. And I'll never get how any manager in the Championship wouldn't use Bojan. Yet we had 2 that did it. Fucking mental.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Oct 27, 2021 7:50:42 GMT
I just think Rowett spent money at Stoke like he'd won the lottery. He was out of his mind and depth. He's got nothing to gamble with at Millwall. We would have probably done better with him if there hadn't been a budget. At the same time both Jones and Rowett had to deal with some massive egos around the place and failed spectacularly in that respect too. Indeed both whilst being massive egos themselves. And I'll never get how any manager in the Championship wouldn't use Bojan. Yet we had 2 that did it. Fucking mental. The slight flaw though is both have proved to.be significantly better managers elsewhere than here I wouldn’t even bet against jones getting Luton promoted long before we do and the big club thing doesn’t work for Rowett as Derby nd Birmingham are similar size .We have to look at the environment of complacency . Lack of independent challenge and culture and who is creating it as they aren’t all bad managers O’Neil included
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 27, 2021 8:00:48 GMT
Indeed both whilst being massive egos themselves. And I'll never get how any manager in the Championship wouldn't use Bojan. Yet we had 2 that did it. Fucking mental. The slight flaw though is both have proved to.be significantly better managers elsewhere than here I wouldn’t even bet against jones getting Luton promoted long before we do and the big club thing doesn’t work for Rowett as Derby nd Birmingham are similar size .We have to look at the environment of complacency . Lack of independent challenge and culture and who is creating it as they aren’t all bad managers O’Neil included The circumstances were different elsewhere though weren't they? Rowett didn't have anything like that budget at any of his other clubs. Jones at this point in his career is clearly better suited to a club without huge expectations and pressure.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Oct 27, 2021 9:17:33 GMT
The slight flaw though is both have proved to.be significantly better managers elsewhere than here I wouldn’t even bet against jones getting Luton promoted long before we do and the big club thing doesn’t work for Rowett as Derby nd Birmingham are similar size .We have to look at the environment of complacency . Lack of independent challenge and culture and who is creating it as they aren’t all bad managers O’Neil included The circumstances were different elsewhere though weren't they? Rowett didn't have anything like that budget at any of his other clubs. Jones at this point in his career is clearly better suited to a club without huge expectations and pressure. The issue though is that again implies it’s them and we have the right environment and just keep hiring the wrong managers as this one id no nearer the top 6 either so either the environment is right and recruitment shit or recruitment is good and environment isn’t right
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 27, 2021 9:25:57 GMT
The circumstances were different elsewhere though weren't they? Rowett didn't have anything like that budget at any of his other clubs. Jones at this point in his career is clearly better suited to a club without huge expectations and pressure. The issue though is that again implies it’s them and we have the right environment and just keep hiring the wrong managers as this one id no nearer the top 6 either so either the environment is right and recruitment shit or recruitment is good and environment isn’t right Or we could have a bash at stuff like 'nuance', and maybe it isn't an either/or situation? We've had the wrong environment and hiring the wrong manager continually has been a symptom of that. We've treated the manager like a magic wand and expected them to just come in and fix various deep-seated problems with little thought given to how they play, whether they're the right fit for us etc. We've let them shoulder the burden alone with no far-reaching vision beyond that. That's been a big part of the recruitment failure. We've done the same with O'Neill but because he's a smart guy and has a qualification in sports management or similar, he's recognised the structures that need putting in place - there seem to be actual pathways for younger players now, we seem to have some kind of strategy in recruitment (even if the jury's out on incomings to date), there seems to be a plan. Parts of it still leave me scratching my head but it's clearly an improvement and moving in the right direction. You say this side is no nearer the top six but being on the same points as the team in fifth sure feels like it is to me? Even if it was a few points off, these aren't problems that a manager just comes in and fixes overnight on his own.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 9:39:21 GMT
MON wants us to be a passing side. We are playing how he wants us to. Jones was just fucking useless. The job was way too big for him and he pretty much had a mental breakdown because he couldn't deal with it. The issues were of his making, he overcomplicated what he was trying and signed players that didn't fit that. And the best player he signed in Nick Powell, he fell out with and didn't play. I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire personally but that might just be me. Again Rowett signed players that aren't suited to how he plays, that's on him! I just think Rowett spent money at Stoke like he'd won the lottery. He was out of his mind and depth. He's got nothing to gamble with at Millwall. We would have probably done better with him if there hadn't been a budget. At the same time both Jones and Rowett had to deal with some massive egos around the place and failed spectacularly in that respect too. . Yep 100% agree
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 27, 2021 10:57:04 GMT
The issue though is that again implies it’s them and we have the right environment and just keep hiring the wrong managers as this one id no nearer the top 6 either so either the environment is right and recruitment shit or recruitment is good and environment isn’t right Or we could have a bash at stuff like 'nuance', and maybe it isn't an either/or situation? We've had the wrong environment and hiring the wrong manager continually has been a symptom of that. We've treated the manager like a magic wand and expected them to just come in and fix various deep-seated problems with little thought given to how they play, whether they're the right fit for us etc. We've let them shoulder the burden alone with no far-reaching vision beyond that. That's been a big part of the recruitment failure. We've done the same with O'Neill but because he's a smart guy and has a qualification in sports management or similar, he's recognised the structures that need putting in place - there seem to be actual pathways for younger players now, we seem to have some kind of strategy in recruitment (even if the jury's out on incomings to date), there seems to be a plan. Parts of it still leave me scratching my head but it's clearly an improvement and moving in the right direction. You say this side is no nearer the top six but being on the same points as the team in fifth sure feels like it is to me? Even if it was a few points off, these aren't problems that a manager just comes in and fixes overnight on his own. I think all that is true but I also think the thing that gets overlooked is the situation the managers inherited and a sense of realism as to where we are in the grand scheme of things. Rowett inherited a disinterested, over the hill squad and tried to add to this with battle hardened half decent Championship quality players. He made some errors in recruitment but the fundamental problem was the core of the squad and the players he brought in couldn't carry the expectations of an immediate return. In retrospect the squad was in such a disarray and expectation so ludicrously high I don't think any manager would have succeeded. Jones inherited a squad coming to terms with the fact that they weren't on their way back to the promised land and tried to impose a way of playing that didn't suit them. The situation was completely beyond him to sort out and a confused, disillusioned, unmotivated squad found itself in relegation trouble and couldn't deal with the gap between expectation and reality. When O'Neill took over it was pretty obvious to everyone that we were in the shit and he had the luxury of not having to deal with delusional players, owners and (for a brief period at least) fans. He saw the situation for what it was and had the experience and temperament to sort it out. We are now doing what in retrospect we should have done in the first place - dismantle and rebuild with a medium/long term plan rather than try to implement a quick fix. That quick fix - which the owners, manager and fans had all bought into in the first season - has set us back 3 years. Rowett and Jones have demonstrated that they aren't bad managers - in fact their current success at clubs who should really be in the bottom half given their resources and their previous track record suggests the exact opposite. I also don't buy into explanation that it is somehow an inherently permanent problem with the club. Rowett and Jones made mistakes, as did the club, but what did for them was the horrible mess we were in at that time and the massive gap between what they were being asked to do and what we were actually capable of at that time. Fortunately the situation is now looking far healthier and promotion is starting to look like a realistic prospect rather than a delusion.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 27, 2021 11:51:53 GMT
Or we could have a bash at stuff like 'nuance', and maybe it isn't an either/or situation? We've had the wrong environment and hiring the wrong manager continually has been a symptom of that. We've treated the manager like a magic wand and expected them to just come in and fix various deep-seated problems with little thought given to how they play, whether they're the right fit for us etc. We've let them shoulder the burden alone with no far-reaching vision beyond that. That's been a big part of the recruitment failure. We've done the same with O'Neill but because he's a smart guy and has a qualification in sports management or similar, he's recognised the structures that need putting in place - there seem to be actual pathways for younger players now, we seem to have some kind of strategy in recruitment (even if the jury's out on incomings to date), there seems to be a plan. Parts of it still leave me scratching my head but it's clearly an improvement and moving in the right direction. You say this side is no nearer the top six but being on the same points as the team in fifth sure feels like it is to me? Even if it was a few points off, these aren't problems that a manager just comes in and fixes overnight on his own. I think all that is true but I also think the thing that gets overlooked is the situation the managers inherited and a sense of realism as to where we are in the grand scheme of things. Rowett inherited a disinterested, over the hill squad and tried to add to this with battle hardened half decent Championship quality players. He made some errors in recruitment but the fundamental problem was the core of the squad and the players he brought in couldn't carry the expectations of an immediate return. In retrospect the squad was in such a disarray and expectation so ludicrously high I don't think any manager would have succeeded. Jones inherited a squad coming to terms with the fact that they weren't on their way back to the promised land and tried to impose a way of playing that didn't suit them. The situation was completely beyond him to sort out and a confused, disillusioned, unmotivated squad found itself in relegation trouble and couldn't deal with the gap between expectation and reality. When O'Neill took over it was pretty obvious to everyone that we were in the shit and he had the luxury of not having to deal with delusional players, owners and (for a brief period at least) fans. He saw the situation for what it was and had the experience and temperament to sort it out. We are now doing what in retrospect we should have done in the first place - dismantle and rebuild with a medium/long term plan rather than try to implement a quick fix. That quick fix - which the owners, manager and fans had all bought into in the first season - has set us back 3 years. Rowett and Jones have demonstrated that they aren't bad managers - in fact their current success at clubs who should really be in the bottom half given their resources and their previous track record suggests the exact opposite. I also don't buy into explanation that it is somehow an inherently permanent problem with the club. Rowett and Jones made mistakes, as did the club, but what did for them was the horrible mess we were in at that time and the massive gap between what they were being asked to do and what we were actually capable of at that time. Fortunately the situation is now looking far healthier and promotion is starting to look like a realistic prospect rather than a delusion. I have no sympathy with Rowett whatsoever. Even with the issues he inherited, he made matters worse with his appalling man management and the players he signed. Of course there's going to be expectation when you have that kind of budget, his job was to handle that. He blew it on players who weren't suited to the way he was determined to set up and who brought issues and attitudes of their own. When you've just been relegated and you have the biggest budget in the league you can't set up at home like you're Rotherham or Wycombe and hope to sneak something - the teams you're playing will mostly be doing the same. He eschewed all creativity and then wondered why we couldn't break the likes of Bolton and Ipswich down. He's a moron and totally ill-suited to the job that was required. Jones was the wrong man at the wrong time, it came too soon for him. I think there could be a good manager in there but he was clearly daunted by the task and it was clear the players didn't respect him. The odd thing was that he too didn't sign players who suited the way he wanted to play or wouldn't play the ones that did. He then chopped and changed in a panic until there was no choice but to get rid. We were going down, no question, with him at the helm. I agree that O'Neill benefited from reduced expectations seeing the scale of the job that lay before him but he's also behaved mostly like an actual grown up with a plan.
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