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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 3, 2020 19:37:35 GMT
To try an inject a bit of cheer on this thread, without sounding like "I don't know what all the fuss is about", we really don't have to do a major rebuild. Yes we have a lot of disappointing players still on long contracts, but as I posted a few days ago: Since MON arrived we have been the 8th best team in the Championship and equal 3rd highest goal scorer. That is a remarkable achievement especially given that we have let in a shed load of goals. It is patently clear that if MON can sort out our defending, not easy after 4 very poor defending years, but definitely achievable, we can do well next season. We have a dozen defenders to surely create a defence between them that can get us a top 6 position. Only Ward and Wimmer are total write off players, one has left and the other loadable. I agree - and I'd go further in that a major rebuild would be a terrible idea as it would kill the momentum we have built up since Xmas and with a truncated preseason the new first team would have no time to gel and we'd have yet another terrible start to the season. Thankfully it won't happen anyway - we won't have the time, we're constrained by FFP and O'Neill has already said he sees the current squad as being core to his plans. I really don't see anything more than a left back, right back to challenge Smith, central defender (depending on what happens with Chester and BMI) and maybe a central striker more suited to a 433. And a backup goalie if Butland goes.
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Post by robwahlmann on Aug 3, 2020 19:38:49 GMT
Who are making up all the stories about Stoke signing new midfielders!? I really don't think a new central midfielder will be brought in unless Allen or Clucas is. ![8-|](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/rY_vRFLA3mqqdMbEG4cF.gif)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 20:49:00 GMT
To try an inject a bit of cheer on this thread, without sounding like "I don't know what all the fuss is about", we really don't have to do a major rebuild. Yes we have a lot of disappointing players still on long contracts, but as I posted a few days ago: Since MON arrived we have been the 8th best team in the Championship and equal 3rd highest goal scorer. That is a remarkable achievement especially given that we have let in a shed load of goals. It is patently clear that if MON can sort out our defending, not easy after 4 very poor defending years, but definitely achievable, we can do well next season. We have a dozen defenders to surely create a defence between them that can get us a top 6 position. Only Ward and Wimmer are total write off players, one has left and the other loadable. I agree - and I'd go further in that a major rebuild would be a terrible idea as it would kill the momentum we have built up since Xmas and with a truncated preseason the new first team would have no time to gel and we'd have yet another terrible start to the season. Thankfully it won't happen anyway - we won't have the time, we're constrained by FFP and O'Neill has already said he sees the current squad as being core to his plans. I really don't see anything more than a left back, right back to challenge Smith, central defender (depending on what happens with Chester and BMI) and maybe a central striker more suited to a 433. And a backup goalie if Butland goes. I would imagine five new players are tantamount to a major rebuild...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 20:52:48 GMT
£12 million on a 3 year contract, seems mad ? Agree and it's in the same bracket as Woods. There is no way these two are on such a short contract. These were meant to be our marquee signings and so think 2022 or 23. They were both signed by Rowett who had carte blanche to sign anyone and as lengthily as he saw fit. The shorter breeze happened with Jones.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 4, 2020 8:21:54 GMT
I agree - and I'd go further in that a major rebuild would be a terrible idea as it would kill the momentum we have built up since Xmas and with a truncated preseason the new first team would have no time to gel and we'd have yet another terrible start to the season. Thankfully it won't happen anyway - we won't have the time, we're constrained by FFP and O'Neill has already said he sees the current squad as being core to his plans. I really don't see anything more than a left back, right back to challenge Smith, central defender (depending on what happens with Chester and BMI) and maybe a central striker more suited to a 433. And a backup goalie if Butland goes. I would imagine five new players are tantamount to a major rebuild... Five new first team players is a major rebuild - but that isn't what I'm saying. The only position where we definitely need a first team player is left back and possibly a centre back depending on decisions on Chester and BMI and Shawcross's fitness. The rest are backup/rotation players. Five new squad members is not a major rebuild. My disagreement is with those proposing five or more first team players.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 8:27:47 GMT
I would imagine five new players are tantamount to a major rebuild... Five new first team players is a major rebuild - but that isn't what I'm saying. The only position where we definitely need a first team player is left back and possibly a centre back depending on decisions on Chester and BMI and Shawcross's fitness. The rest are backup/rotation players. Five new squad members is not a major rebuild. My disagreement is with those proposing five or more first team players. It depends upon what he's planning to do with his midfield also. You don't get promoted with Jordan Cousins as your defensive shield, for example. And yes, I know Allen is due back, but that doesn't automatically just fix the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 8:47:15 GMT
I would imagine five new players are tantamount to a major rebuild... Five new first team players is a major rebuild - but that isn't what I'm saying. The only position where we definitely need a first team player is left back and possibly a centre back depending on decisions on Chester and BMI and Shawcross's fitness. The rest are backup/rotation players. Five new squad members is not a major rebuild. My disagreement is with those proposing five or more first team players. It may not be what you are saying, but it is what it means. Buying players to be back up, earning expensive wages to be sitting on their sweet ass doing nothing just in case, is a thing of the past. Very few clubs, not even Stoke, can afford that, especially with the heavy baggage we already have. So if players are bought they must play and must be able to improve on what we already have. The reserves you do have will be academy players, who are a lot less expensive and a lot less likely to kick up a fuss if they don't play. We've seen 8 players already in or on the fringes of the first team last season. More to come.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 4, 2020 16:32:51 GMT
Five new first team players is a major rebuild - but that isn't what I'm saying. The only position where we definitely need a first team player is left back and possibly a centre back depending on decisions on Chester and BMI and Shawcross's fitness. The rest are backup/rotation players. Five new squad members is not a major rebuild. My disagreement is with those proposing five or more first team players. It may not be what you are saying, but it is what it means. Buying players to be back up, earning expensive wages to be sitting on their sweet ass doing nothing just in case, is a thing of the past. Very few clubs, not even Stoke, can afford that, especially with the heavy baggage we already have. So if players are bought they must play and must be able to improve on what we already have. The reserves you do have will be academy players, who are a lot less expensive and a lot less likely to kick up a fuss if they don't play. We've seen 8 players already in or on the fringes of the first team last season. More to come. No way is the squad going to comprise of a first 11 and a bunch of academy players. There will be 22 first team ready players and a handful of academy players looking to catch the manager's eye. If we had a first 11 and relied on the academy for backup we'd be heading for relegation. If our academy were producing players being snapped up by Premiership clubs or our Championship rivals I would have sympathy with your arguement - but it isn't - we are currently a feeder club for League 1 and 2 and non-league football and the reason for that is the players coming through are at that level and if we played them the club would end up at that level as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 17:14:59 GMT
It may not be what you are saying, but it is what it means. Buying players to be back up, earning expensive wages to be sitting on their sweet ass doing nothing just in case, is a thing of the past. Very few clubs, not even Stoke, can afford that, especially with the heavy baggage we already have. So if players are bought they must play and must be able to improve on what we already have. The reserves you do have will be academy players, who are a lot less expensive and a lot less likely to kick up a fuss if they don't play. We've seen 8 players already in or on the fringes of the first team last season. More to come. No way is the squad going to comprise of a first 11 and a bunch of academy players. There will be 22 first team ready players and a handful of academy players looking to catch the manager's eye. If we had a first 11 and relied on the academy for backup we'd be heading for relegation. If our academy were producing players being snapped up by Premiership clubs or our Championship rivals I would have sympathy with your arguement - but it isn't - we are currently a feeder club for League 1 and 2 and non-league football and the reason for that is the players coming through are at that level and if we played them the club would end up at that level as well. Who's mentioned a squad of 11? We have 31full pro players on our books, which is why I say any new player, bought by primarily the Coates family but also some of yours and my hardearned money, will have to be better, much better than what we already have. It has zero importance what other clubs might do or won't do with our academy products. What matters is that they have been trained to be able to fit into our way of playing, and last season 8 of them were, albeit not all that often, but the manager was reluctant to use teenagers in a relegation dogfight. However if the purpose of producing academy players was to feed PL or CL clubs - it clearly isn't - then Collins and Campbell have been on some clubs' shopping lists, but they were given a brush off. Even Edwards - the Lord knows why - has been targeted. I don't know where Edwards is headed, I hope it's on a good path, but Campbell and Collins are a very omportant part of our immediate future. Sorensen probably too. But I not going to continue this discussion, which we've had several times over. Last game you swore O'Neill should not have any youngsters, any at all, in his first teamsquad. O'Neill of course had no less than six academy players in his matchday squad, as if to answeer all your agonies. You have one major hangup about youths and you'll probably never change.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 4, 2020 17:53:49 GMT
No way is the squad going to comprise of a first 11 and a bunch of academy players. There will be 22 first team ready players and a handful of academy players looking to catch the manager's eye. If we had a first 11 and relied on the academy for backup we'd be heading for relegation. If our academy were producing players being snapped up by Premiership clubs or our Championship rivals I would have sympathy with your arguement - but it isn't - we are currently a feeder club for League 1 and 2 and non-league football and the reason for that is the players coming through are at that level and if we played them the club would end up at that level as well. Who's mentioned a squad of 11? We have 31full pro players on our books, which is why I say any new player, bought by primarily the Coates family but also some of yours and my hardearned money, will have to be better, much better than what we already have. It has zero importance what other clubs might do or won't do with our academy products. What matters is that they have been trained to be able to fit into our way of playing, and last season 8 of them were, albeit not all that often, but the manager was reluctant to use teenagers in a relegation dogfight. However if the purpose of producing academy players was to feed PL or CL clubs - it clearly isn't - then Collins and Campbell have been on some clubs' shopping lists, but they were given a brush off. Even Edwards - the Lord knows why - has been targeted. I don't know where Edwards is headed, I hope it's on a good path, but Campbell and Collins are a very omportant part of our immediate future. Sorensen probably too. But I not going to continue this discussion, which we've had several times over. Last game you swore O'Neill should not have any youngsters, any at all, in his first teamsquad. O'Neill of course had no less than six academy players in his matchday squad, as if to answeer all your agonies. You have one major hangup about youths and you'll probably never change. You are getting a bit of a dab hand at misquoting me. I said IF the youngsters had returned unfit and weren't showing the right attitude (which is what was widely being reported at the time - including by O'Neill himself) THEN O'Neill should stick to his guns and not play them. And I stand by that. What actually happened was that O'Neill's hand was forced by injuries and he had to play some of the youngsters - and credit to some of them responded really well - in particular Sorenson and Tymon (and I've no idea if these were the problem players being referred to). However if any of them backslide or try to play the big I am (which hopefully they won't) then I would say exactly the same - don't play them if you don't have to. I have absolutely no problem with young players breaking through - in fact I'd love to see it. However it has to be on merit - not through special treatment - and that special treatment includes a transfer policy that deliberately keeps first team opportunities open for academy players by not recruiting where we need cover or are first team ready. I think we have some good youngsters coming through - for example I don't think there is a pressing need for a DM because I see Sorenson as good cover for that role and could well break through in that role and I see Campbell as part of the first team striker contingent anyway. However I wouldn't have a problem if we brought in another right back to challenge or even replace Smith and have Edwards leave and while Tymon may be an option as a left wingback I really want to see us get someone more first team ready than put our eggs in that particular basket.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Aug 4, 2020 17:56:56 GMT
Where are all the 'ITK' legends hiding? Bunch of cowards, tell everyone how hard the club and Tony in particular are working behind the scenes to bring us a successful team next season. I've never been so excited for an opening day to arrive with the whispers I'm hearing.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Aug 4, 2020 17:59:13 GMT
Where are all the 'ITK' legends hiding? Bunch of cowards, tell everyone how hard the club and Tony in particular are working behind the scenes to bring us a successful team next season. I've never been so excited for an opening day to arrive with the whispers I'm hearing. Sorry, I've been busy eating out to help out.
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Post by neddy on Aug 4, 2020 18:25:23 GMT
Where are all the 'ITK' legends hiding? Bunch of cowards, tell everyone how hard the club and Tony in particular are working behind the scenes to bring us a successful team next season. I've never been so excited for an opening day to arrive with the whispers I'm hearing. Sorry, I've been busy eating out to help out. He did say ITKs lol 😂
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