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Post by zerps on Jul 22, 2020 5:10:12 GMT
Butland was either picked because of his name or contractually. It’s funny how we’re unbeaten since he was dropped. It's not a reasonable comparison. What isn’t?
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Post by jeycov on Jul 22, 2020 7:03:40 GMT
It's not a reasonable comparison. What isn’t? Surely ridiculous for any club to agree to a contract insisting that a player is selected if fit I can understand the temptation to attract a player who may not join without this arrangement, but surely no good for team morale. Hopefully MON will be brave enough to abandon this policy with any incoming players - either they want to be here and challenge for a place in the first team or they get a guarantee deal elsewhere
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Post by lordb on Jul 22, 2020 7:19:17 GMT
Surely ridiculous for any club to agree to a contract insisting that a player is selected if fit I can understand the temptation to attract a player who may not join without this arrangement, but surely no good for team morale. Hopefully MON will be brave enough to abandon this policy with any incoming players - either they want to be here and challenge for a place in the first team or they get a guarantee deal elsewhere Don't be silly No player has such a clause in their contract
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Post by femark on Jul 22, 2020 7:25:49 GMT
Nathan Jones is possibly the most unlucky manager we’ve had, as much as you earn your own luck. I’m obviously delighted he went and couldn’t believe he got as long as he did, but if we break down our opening games... 1-2 QPR - butland howler at 0-0 1-3 Charlton, hit woodwork twice, Gregory open goal, Butland howler at 0-0 2-2 Derby, if memory serves me right we absolutely battered them, hit the woodwork a couple of times 1-3 Preston, Jack fucking Butland 0-3 Leeds, don’t remember it 1-2 Birmingham, Allen missed open goal? 1-2 Bristol City, don’t remember it By this point, confidence was obviously shattered and we looked like an absolute sack of shit, he rightfully went. I do wonder what would have happened if Butland would have left in the summer, of if Jones had the balls to cull him Unlucky? We were awful mate. Nothing unlucky about them opening games. Don't forget the embarrassment at Crawley. We weren't awful though were we? How many times did we say we played well, were unlucky, etc. Everyone honestly thought it would turn around but it just didn't work out.
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Post by zerps on Jul 22, 2020 7:38:00 GMT
Surely ridiculous for any club to agree to a contract insisting that a player is selected if fit I can understand the temptation to attract a player who may not join without this arrangement, but surely no good for team morale. Hopefully MON will be brave enough to abandon this policy with any incoming players - either they want to be here and challenge for a place in the first team or they get a guarantee deal elsewhere Summat definitely happened with Butland mate. I reckon he’s been injured for a good while. He definitely can’t dive properly. Potentially, dropping Butland will be a turning point for us.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 8:25:48 GMT
Surely ridiculous for any club to agree to a contract insisting that a player is selected if fit I can understand the temptation to attract a player who may not join without this arrangement, but surely no good for team morale. Hopefully MON will be brave enough to abandon this policy with any incoming players - either they want to be here and challenge for a place in the first team or they get a guarantee deal elsewhere Don't be silly No player has such a clause in their contract Of course some do. But they'd have to be seriously big stars, like Messi, Neymar, Ronaldo, Klinsman, Kane. As if any manager would ever consider not playing them...
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Post by datguy on Jul 22, 2020 8:30:26 GMT
Unlucky? We were awful mate. Nothing unlucky about them opening games. Don't forget the embarrassment at Crawley. We weren't awful though were we? How many times did we say we played well, were unlucky, etc. Everyone honestly thought it would turn around but it just didn't work out. Maybe for the first 3 games. But come on, if you watched that Preston game and thought we’d manage to turn it around then you’re just wrong. Awful beyond Butland’s mistakes in every game.
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Post by mamasgloves on Jul 22, 2020 8:50:24 GMT
Unlucky? We were awful mate. Nothing unlucky about them opening games. Don't forget the embarrassment at Crawley. We weren't awful though were we? How many times did we say we played well, were unlucky, etc. Everyone honestly thought it would turn around but it just didn't work out. The Leeds game is the only one in the first season that gave me any hope, the rest were a car crash where we were consistently exposed through the middle courtesy of his "wonderful" diamond. As for this terrible luck, I would suggest it was more to do with chopping and changing half the team and its tactics every week leading to a lack of understanding between players that gave the impression of bad luck
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 8:51:04 GMT
I still can't get it round my head as to how Jones has gone in there and got 13 points from 24 (extrapolated over a season worth 74 points) with a rough average side of: Sluga (signed by G Jones for 1.5M) Bree (Signed by G Jones on loan) Carter Vickers Bradley (Free - Plymouth) Potts (Free - WHU) Rea (Free - Brighton) MPanzu (Youth) Berry (Free - Cambridge) Lee (Free - Barnsley) Collins (Free - Crawley) Cornick (undisclosed - Bournemouth) Yet he couldn't get a group of experienced Championship and international players to play the same system here? It's a complete mystery to me.
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Post by mamasgloves on Jul 22, 2020 8:53:32 GMT
I still can't get it round my head as to how Jones has gone in there and got 13 points from 24 (extrapolated over a season worth 74 points) with a rough average side of: Sluga (signed by G Jones for 1.5M) Bree (Signed by G Jones on loan) Carter Vickers Bradley (Free - Plymouth) Potts (Free - WHU) Rea (Free - Brighton) MPanzu (Youth) Berry (Free - Cambridge) Lee (Free - Barnsley) Collins (Free - Crawley) Cornick (undisclosed - Bournemouth) Yet he couldn't get a group of experienced Championship and international players to play the same system here? It's a complete mystery to me. New manager bounce, lets see how he does next season - hpefully that will be down in L1
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 8:56:45 GMT
I still can't get it round my head as to how Jones has gone in there and got 13 points from 24 (extrapolated over a season worth 74 points) with a rough average side of: Sluga (signed by G Jones for 1.5M) Bree (Signed by G Jones on loan) Carter Vickers Bradley (Free - Plymouth) Potts (Free - WHU) Rea (Free - Brighton) MPanzu (Youth) Berry (Free - Cambridge) Lee (Free - Barnsley) Collins (Free - Crawley) Cornick (undisclosed - Bournemouth) Yet he couldn't get a group of experienced Championship and international players to play the same system here? It's a complete mystery to me. New manager bounce, lets see how he does next season - hpefully that will be down in L1 Same manager didn't get a bounce here, with much better players though? That's what I can't get my head around at all. The squad he's got there are a bunch of no marks and freebie nobodies that have been dragged up through the leagues yet they can get a huge PPG swing on a bunch of expensive Championship players under the same manager with the same system?
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Post by EccyStokie on Jul 22, 2020 9:10:20 GMT
New manager bounce, lets see how he does next season - hpefully that will be down in L1 Same manager didn't get a bounce here, with much better players though? That's what I can't get my head around at all. The squad he's got there are a bunch of no marks and freebie nobodies that have been dragged up through the leagues yet they can get a huge PPG swing on a bunch of expensive Championship players under the same manager with the same system? It has to come down to the attitude of those players and how much they do or didn’t want to play for the manager.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 9:14:28 GMT
Same manager didn't get a bounce here, with much better players though? That's what I can't get my head around at all. The squad he's got there are a bunch of no marks and freebie nobodies that have been dragged up through the leagues yet they can get a huge PPG swing on a bunch of expensive Championship players under the same manager with the same system? It has to come down to the attitude of those players and how much they do or didn’t want to play for the manager. Maybe, maybe not? I don't think it boils down to one particular issue. Ultimately I don't really care. He's gone, we've got MON and we are looking forward to next season but part of me looks back and wonders why things go wrong when they do - with Jones, Rowett and Lambert etc. Why did those managers get appointed, what were the board thinking etc? Also, you have the angle of what a manager has learned since he left etc. I just find it a pretty extreme swing in results given how poor that Luton side is. We've all seen them twice this season and they were diabolical, yet Jones has gone in there with a system that was ridiculed here by supporters, analysts, pundits and supposedly first team players and has done exceptionally well.
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Post by Pedropotter on Jul 22, 2020 9:26:09 GMT
We weren't awful though were we? How many times did we say we played well, were unlucky, etc. Everyone honestly thought it would turn around but it just didn't work out. The Leeds game is the only one in the first season that gave me any hope, the rest were a car crash where we were consistently exposed through the middle courtesy of his "wonderful" diamond. As for this terrible luck, I would suggest it was more to do with chopping and changing half the team and its tactics every week leading to a lack of understanding between players that gave the impression of bad luck Spot on.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 22, 2020 9:30:44 GMT
I got the overwhelming impression that the players thought Jones was a complete prick. Normally that would anger me but in his case it was an entirely natural reaction.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 22, 2020 10:07:40 GMT
Out of his depth but I blame the useless qunts who appointed him - the same ones who wasted £50+milion on shit players/people - for the state of our club. Rowett didn't appoint himself
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Post by mamasgloves on Jul 22, 2020 10:13:40 GMT
I got the overwhelming impression that the players thought Jones was a complete prick. Normally that would anger me but in his case it was an entirely natural reaction. I expect, much like the majority of fans, they had to google who the hell he was which isn't the best start
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Jul 22, 2020 11:23:57 GMT
Unlucky? We were awful mate. Nothing unlucky about them opening games. Don't forget the embarrassment at Crawley. We played Charlton and Derby off the park mate, Butland threw the QPR and Preston games I’m not a Jones apologist. It was mental that he kept his job after 9 games We played very well in spells and created as many chances as I've seen us create for years but the squad was so fragile.
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Post by mamasgloves on Jul 22, 2020 12:38:37 GMT
We played Charlton and Derby off the park mate, Butland threw the QPR and Preston games I’m not a Jones apologist. It was mental that he kept his job after 9 games We played very well in spells and created as many chances as I've seen us create for years but the squad was so fragile. The manager was the fragile one, the same squad have hit play off form since he left
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 12:44:22 GMT
I still can't get it round my head as to how Jones has gone in there and got 13 points from 24 (extrapolated over a season worth 74 points) with a rough average side of: Sluga (signed by G Jones for 1.5M) Bree (Signed by G Jones on loan) Carter Vickers Bradley (Free - Plymouth) Potts (Free - WHU) Rea (Free - Brighton) MPanzu (Youth) Berry (Free - Cambridge) Lee (Free - Barnsley) Collins (Free - Crawley) Cornick (undisclosed - Bournemouth) Yet he couldn't get a group of experienced Championship and international players to play the same system here? It's a complete mystery to me. Because you need to be a good manager to *manage* a group of players like ours. All the football-philosophies in the world can't change that.
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Post by toppercorner on Jul 22, 2020 12:53:28 GMT
I'd like Luton to go down, and Charlton to stay up.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 22, 2020 13:15:09 GMT
We played very well in spells and created as many chances as I've seen us create for years but the squad was so fragile. The manager was the fragile one, the same squad have hit play off form since he left His set up relies heavily on pace and we had zero, if he keeps Luton up he'll have done another fantastic job there and shows the whole fraud stuff to be the bollocks it is. One bad period at a club doesn't suddenly make someone a bad manager.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 13:46:22 GMT
The manager was the fragile one, the same squad have hit play off form since he left His set up relies heavily on pace and we had zero, if he keeps Luton up he'll have done another fantastic job there and shows the whole fraud stuff to be the bollocks it is. One bad period at a club doesn't suddenly make someone a bad manager. He was a bad manager here though, he was cataclysmically bad. That's just the weakest defence of the man though, he came in January and had the time to see who fit his set up. In the summer he added plenty of new faces and not one of them had any fucking pace! He left with a squad that didn't fit his system, or frankly any other system on the planet. A good manager has to surely be more versatile than Nathan Jones showed himself to be, he was also pretty unprofessional with his press conferences and honestly didn't seem to gain a modicum of respect form the squad. MON came in with even less experience of club management, and garnered that respect immediately. I can't honestly believe people defend Nathan Jones still, the bloke was absolute dogshit, worst manager I've ever seen at the club personally.
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Post by Goonie on Jul 22, 2020 13:52:02 GMT
Surely ridiculous for any club to agree to a contract insisting that a player is selected if fit I can understand the temptation to attract a player who may not join without this arrangement, but surely no good for team morale. Hopefully MON will be brave enough to abandon this policy with any incoming players - either they want to be here and challenge for a place in the first team or they get a guarantee deal elsewhere Summat definitely happened with Butland mate. I reckon he’s been injured for a good while. He definitely can’t dive properly. Potentially, dropping Butland will be a turning point for us. I've thought he looked depressed for a season or so, reactions dropped off, had a sense he didn't want to be here. Perhaps this is true or just me speculating but not something the player or the club would advertise due to the adverse impact on his value
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Post by Goonie on Jul 22, 2020 13:53:54 GMT
His set up relies heavily on pace and we had zero, if he keeps Luton up he'll have done another fantastic job there and shows the whole fraud stuff to be the bollocks it is. One bad period at a club doesn't suddenly make someone a bad manager. He was a bad manager here though, he was cataclysmically bad. That's just the weakest defence of the man though, he came in January and had the time to see who fit his set up. In the summer he added plenty of new faces and not one of them had any fucking pace! He left with a squad that didn't fit his system, or frankly any other system on the planet. A good manager has to surely be more versatile than Nathan Jones showed himself to be, he was also pretty unprofessional with his press conferences and honestly didn't seem to gain a modicum of respect form the squad. MON came in with even less experience of club management, and garnered that respect immediately. I can't honestly believe people defend Nathan Jones still, the bloke was absolute dogshit, worst manager I've ever seen at the club personally. Good summary 👍👏🎯
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Post by zerps on Jul 22, 2020 14:07:59 GMT
Summat definitely happened with Butland mate. I reckon he’s been injured for a good while. He definitely can’t dive properly. Potentially, dropping Butland will be a turning point for us. I've thought he looked depressed for a season or so, reactions dropped off, had a sense he didn't want to be here. Perhaps this is true or just me speculating but not something the player or the club would advertise due to the adverse impact on his value Summat was off mate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 14:13:16 GMT
The manager was the fragile one, the same squad have hit play off form since he left His set up relies heavily on pace and we had zero, if he keeps Luton up he'll have done another fantastic job there and shows the whole fraud stuff to be the bollocks it is. One bad period at a club doesn't suddenly make someone a bad manager. He didn't bring anyone in with pace though, so he has to take his share of the blame for that. His choice of left back/defensive midfielder in a system that relies so heavily on both was a sackable offence in itself......
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Post by Olgrligm on Jul 22, 2020 14:17:47 GMT
I still can't get it round my head as to how Jones has gone in there and got 13 points from 24 (extrapolated over a season worth 74 points) with a rough average side of: Sluga (signed by G Jones for 1.5M) Bree (Signed by G Jones on loan) Carter Vickers Bradley (Free - Plymouth) Potts (Free - WHU) Rea (Free - Brighton) MPanzu (Youth) Berry (Free - Cambridge) Lee (Free - Barnsley) Collins (Free - Crawley) Cornick (undisclosed - Bournemouth) Yet he couldn't get a group of experienced Championship and international players to play the same system here? It's a complete mystery to me. I imagine it's probably to do with that ragtag bunch of free transfers not thinking to themselves, 'I'm a Premier League footballer who doesn't have to listen to Third Division managers'.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 15:21:27 GMT
His set up relies heavily on pace and we had zero, if he keeps Luton up he'll have done another fantastic job there and shows the whole fraud stuff to be the bollocks it is. One bad period at a club doesn't suddenly make someone a bad manager. He didn't bring anyone in with pace though, so he has to take his share of the blame for that. His choice of left back/defensive midfielder in a system that relies so heavily on both was a sackable offence in itself...... O'Neill has already spoken about bringing in pace and physicality. Let's see what the process brings him before we go casting judgement! 😁
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Post by noustie on Jul 22, 2020 15:48:44 GMT
We weren't awful though were we? How many times did we say we played well, were unlucky, etc. Everyone honestly thought it would turn around but it just didn't work out. The Leeds game is the only one in the first season that gave me any hope, the rest were a car crash where we were consistently exposed through the middle courtesy of his "wonderful" diamond. As for this terrible luck, I would suggest it was more to do with chopping and changing half the team and its tactics every week leading to a lack of understanding between players that gave the impression of bad luck I remember against PNE away four of their players running in the space between Allen and Clucas in CM to reach the box late. It was an absolute shambles where teams got 2v1's piece of piss all over the place. Whenever they drew lines over the supposed two banks of four it looked like a Picasso.
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