Michael’s lack of buying/selling?

[markby]

Michael will know from this season whuch players he wants to keep for next.

This will in turn inform his chosen playing style and set-up, from which he will know what type of player he needs to bring in to fill the gaps.

The problem is, can he (or the club) identify individual players who can fit the profile?

And if so, will they be affordable?

As for his scouting players while NI boss, I'm not sure that will help him, since NI's most recent opposition was either the likes of Germany, Holland, Czech Rep or Austria i.e. unaffordable, or Luxembourg, Belarus or Estonia i.e. players you probably wouldn't want.

That said, he's extremely good at maintaining contacts (agents, other managers, former players etc), so I'd guess he'll be relying on those for recommendations, once he's supplied the profile he's looking for.

[estrangedsonoffaye]

Ultimately, O’Neill will pick out who he wants to sign, whether they get signed or not is totally in the lap of you know who and simply how much agents can take him for. How much experience he has isn’t the crux for me.

Which is quite a lot if you look a the most recent payment to agents fees.

My concern is that the board will have learnt nothing from Jones and Rowett and will let him go wild on whoever he wants. I know some people like that, and there are good examples of it working. But it has to click and keep clicking, if the manager leaves or doesn’t achieve you’re left with a bloated squad that the new manager doesn’t want.

[estrangedsonoffaye]

Jul 14, 2020 20:14:51 GMT thisisouryear said:

Jul 14, 2020 19:55:45 GMT Little Gary Patel said:

Couldn't disagree more.
There should be a solid recruitment process in place (there clearly isn't), that would be my number 1 priority over the next 1 or 2 seasons.
Giving the manager full control is how we've ended up with this disjointed & unbalanced squad.

If you were doing a job would you prefer to use your own tools or someone else's?

For me fully backing the manager is the best way to have success. Just because it didn't work with one manager doesn't mean it won't work with another. I'm sure Pulis picked his own players as did Sir Alex Ferguson. 

We have a squad full of players suitable for 3 different managers, despite all that MON has managed to get a tune out of them. Jones had limited ability and wasn't able to adapt. Rowett got results but wasn't liked and his team's were a bit shit to watch. I think Rowett would have had us challenging if he stayed. Our biggest problem was Jones and Jones alone, he was a one trick pony.

You’ve hit on one of the major problems of it though, absolutely no continuity whatsoever. Look at what has happened to Man United’s recruitment since Ferguson left.

I think something similar will happen at Sheffield United if and when Wilder leaves. For it to work it has to work for a long time, without failure or your manager being poached.

I think it is also misconstrued as Manager v Technical/Sporting Director, it shouldn’t be like that. It should be a collaborative effort between the two.

[Gods]

Jul 14, 2020 22:31:25 GMT mickstupp said:

Jul 14, 2020 22:21:08 GMT Gods said:

I guess the main challenge for MON is what to do with the 7 returning loan players.

Badou, Etebo, Ndaiye, Woods and all. Essentially our most expensive assets.

What the heck do we do with them?

Until we know this I'm not sure we can move.

This. He’s going to have to work with them isn’t he? Until they are sold/given away I don’t see how he can create the room or the finance to bring anyone else in?

Yep, we couldn't really move them on last summer so how we will do it in the current lockdown economic climate I don't know.

Where are we with parachute payments. This is the final year at 25% ?

It all looks desperately tricky to me.

[Deleted]

In the January window the manager was virtually begging the club for help, insisting it shouldn't be all about the manager and that there needs to be a process in place to support the manager.

It really is up to the club to support MON in the market.

Whether there is an acceptable process in place is another argument altogether.

[mickstupp]

Jul 15, 2020 6:32:48 GMT Gods said:

Jul 14, 2020 22:31:25 GMT mickstupp said:

This. He’s going to have to work with them isn’t he? Until they are sold/given away I don’t see how he can create the room or the finance to bring anyone else in?

Yep, we couldn't really move them on last summer so how we will do it in the current lockdown economic climate I don't know.

Where are we with parachute payments. This is the final year at 25% ?

It all looks desperately tricky to me.

Yes, next season is the third and final year of parachute payments.

[bolders]

Jul 14, 2020 22:15:39 GMT march4 said:

Jul 14, 2020 19:44:45 GMT bolders said:

He has Andy Cousins to help him

Didn’t Thompson say it was Cousins who pointed him to Stoke?

Excuse me for not doing cartwheels.

Nothing Wrong with Thompson as a squad player

[CBUFAWKIPWH]

I fully expect the transfer window to be massively underwhelming on paper - very little spent on unknown journeymen and maybe an ageing old pro or two. Cue wailing and gnashing of teeth on here.

The problem with the squad we have isn't quality - for Championship standard it's very good. The issue is drive, ambition and attitude - which I think is going to be the core of O'Neill's transfer strategy. If O'Neill can turnaround the attitude of the dressing room and get half a dozen of the current squad to buy in and live up to their potential we should be looking at being playoff contenders and make a "terrible" window look good in retrospect. The key for me is a genuine leader on the pitch who sets the tone and commands respect.

[Staffsoatcake]

We could be looking to bring in some young lads from Premiership clubs,who want them to gain some 1st team experience,this would keep Scholes happy,no transfer fee,only paying part of their wages,then sent back when no longer wanted.

[nottsover60]

Jul 14, 2020 19:30:16 GMT jesusmcmuffin said:

Jul 14, 2020 19:28:25 GMT thisisouryear said:

I just hope he has full control over the players he wants. Magic MON will do wonders with his own players, the club needs to trust his judgement, he seems on the ball and will no doubt get poached if we don't support him properly.

We've always supported managers in the market. Problem is they just identified the wrong players of late

Are you sure of this? My understanding is that the manager has given a profile of the type of player he wants, the scouting system identifies players we can afford who fit the profile and give the list to the manager who then chooses the one he wants. As I've said before if Ward was top of the list for Jones's young, athletic full backs who else was on the list? 

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2020 10:51:52 GMT nottsover60 said:

Jul 14, 2020 19:30:16 GMT jesusmcmuffin said:

We've always supported managers in the market. Problem is they just identified the wrong players of late

Are you sure of this? My understanding is that the manager has given a profile of the type of player he wants, the scouting system identifies players we can afford who fit the profile and give the list to the manager who then chooses the one he wants. As I've said before if Ward was top of the list for Jones's young, athletic full backs who else was on the list? 

I can't imagine clubs signing players a manager doesn't want can you ?


I try not to get into Nathan Jones' head as some scary shite in there it seems.

[kerouac]

Jul 14, 2020 22:21:08 GMT Gods said:

I guess the main challenge for MON is what to do with the 7 returning loan players.

Badou, Etebo, Ndaiye, Woods and all. Essentially our most expensive assets.

What the heck do we do with them?

Until we know this I'm not sure we can move.

Id love it if he could start afresh with Etebo and Badou and reintroduce those boys into the team,in my opinion we need this calibre of player to kick on.
A test of his man management skills without a doubt.

[Gods]

Jul 15, 2020 10:56:56 GMT kerouac said:

Jul 14, 2020 22:21:08 GMT Gods said:

I guess the main challenge for MON is what to do with the 7 returning loan players.

Badou, Etebo, Ndaiye, Woods and all. Essentially our most expensive assets.

What the heck do we do with them?

Until we know this I'm not sure we can move.

Id love it if he could start afresh with Etebo and Badou and reintroduce those boys into the team,in my opinion we need this calibre of player to kick on.
A test of his man management skills without a doubt.

I've said that about a dozen times on here but most people think the idea is CRACKERS!

But why the heck not? It's not like they will have any great options.

There is no money in the game right now to go after.

Some may be lost causes but what if MON could just fall back in with 2 or 3 of them? We'd be in business.

And as you say good management isn't just about falling out with the playing staff, it's convincing them this is their best immediate future.

[noustie]

Jul 15, 2020 11:34:18 GMT Gods said:

Jul 15, 2020 10:56:56 GMT kerouac said:

Id love it if he could start afresh with Etebo and Badou and reintroduce those boys into the team,in my opinion we need this calibre of player to kick on.
A test of his man management skills without a doubt.

I've said that about a dozen times on here but most people think the idea is CRACKERS!

But why the heck not? It's not like they will have any great options.

There is no money in the game right now to go after.

Some may be lost causes but what if MON could just fall back in with 2 or 3 of them? We'd be in business.

And as you say good management isn't just about falling out with the playing staff, it's convincing them this is their best immediate future.

Can imagine there'll be a few players who'll be worrying about their next contract given a lot of teams are going be skint so will need get their finger out their @rse to convince anyone else to buy them.

Stoke could be in a good position hoovering up players from skint teams but the problem will be making space for them by getting rid of the sh!t we have already.

Left back and someone in midfeild who doesn't bounce out of tackles would make us a different side.

[sheds1862]

Jul 14, 2020 18:50:30 GMT potterboy said:

I’m hoping we will now be safe. I’m also impressed with michael’s tactics.
However, has our manager experience in buying/selling? A friend was saying he has very little and it makes me shudder to think that our board will be buying and getting Michael to work with what he is told?

Has he experience? Am I being to hard on the board?

I ask I think Michael achieved so much with ‘what he had to work with’ at Ireland and I wonder if that will be the thinking going forward?

Why did it need a friend to tell you that ?
He's been an international manager for years I'd of thought that was self explanatory.
Unless you mean his purchases at Brechin

[kerouac]

Jul 15, 2020 11:34:18 GMT Gods said:

Jul 15, 2020 10:56:56 GMT kerouac said:

Id love it if he could start afresh with Etebo and Badou and reintroduce those boys into the team,in my opinion we need this calibre of player to kick on.
A test of his man management skills without a doubt.

I've said that about a dozen times on here but most people think the idea is CRACKERS!

But why the heck not? It's not like they will have any great options.

There is no money in the game right now to go after.

Some may be lost causes but what if MON could just fall back in with 2 or 3 of them? We'd be in business.

And as you say good management isn't just about falling out with the playing staff, it's convincing them this is their best immediate future.

I don’t know the whys and the wherefores of the contract but in these times things will have changed so hopefully he can have a good sit down with them,get them playing because they’re both class above a lot of our bunch.

[cdlstoke]

Jul 14, 2020 22:39:23 GMT mrcoke said:

1. Could MON actually do worse than our previous 4 managers?

2. In December we were in the relegation zone. What ambitious player with talent would want to join us and risk ruining his career? I'm surprised anyone signed for us in January.

3. As a national manager for the last 8 years he has been scouring the leagues for players to play for NI. He is probably more aware of the talent in all the clubs than most club managers who are tied up full time managing club affairs. He will certainly have seen a lot of foreign players in the last 8 years.

4. The manager has to convince a player that he should join us, which I think MON would be pretty good at. The rest of the business (terms and conditions of contract with the players agent) is handled by others not the manager.

5. My guess is he has already briefed the club on who has to go and who he wants during the lock down.

Last 4?
Hughes had some great signings until he at to shop at the lower end Of the market to fair.
Even though his time was up and probably should of gone earlier, he was a lot better standard of manager than anyone since in my opinion.

[mrcoke]

I am looking forward to seeing what MON comes up with.

We are tired of getting journey men, or guys well past their sell buy date, who are just working out their last few years playing. That was what Rowett and Jones did, in Rowett's case at huge expense, in Jones case at the cost of mediocrity.

MON has not followed their lead in January, and brought in two young players in their early 20s who he will develop. To bring in experience proven players, he was stuffed. Being bottom of the table  any proved talent would not want to touch us. He was also restricted in team selection as being in a relegation fight is no time to bring in untried youngsters and he is clearly not fully trusting Collins.

How many MON can bring is will be strictly governed by how many the club can move out, but I am confident MON will go for a mix of youth and experience.

Apart from transfers, I am keen to see what MON can do with Tymon, Souttar, Ngoy and other young players. With Edwards, Campbell, Oakley-Boothe, Verlinden, Sorenson, and Collins we do have a large pool of young players who are young enough to get better.

[nott1]

There will be a groove made by Mons car in the M6 tarmac to Scotland!

[Miles Offside]

The two signings he's made so far have to be seen in the context of our position in January. Chester was seen as a solid signing at the time, and the other lad was somebody we could land and possibly develop.

Despite me criticising MON's team selections and line-ups at times, I think overall he's done a terrific job. If we can survive this season, I'd trust his judgement in the transfer market in preparing for next season.

[mrcoke]

I've just taken a re-look at MON's record since he arrived.

Recent results since the end of playing lock down have dented his record which now stands at 1.45 points per game. That is what Swansea have achieved to date all season in 8th place and they are 3 points behind Cardiff who are sitting in 6th place for the play-offs.

I'm confident that even without any significant signings to improve the team like a LB, MON can still improve this squad and get them playing well enough to achieve a play-off place. In reality he will improve the squad and get rid of some dead wood, if not all that this MB would like to see.

It would be good also if some of our loaned out players who are capable of strengthening the team realise their best chance of fame and fortune is to get Stoke promoted at some time in the future. The problem is, as MON has alluded to, the squad is unbalanced with too many MFs and CBs, no decent FBs, and no satisfactory quality wide players. (Verlinden excepted)

Having been in a relegation battle all season MON has been reticent to use young inexperienced players. When we start next season with a clean sheet after pre-season hopefully there will be more young talent in the side as well as fresh faces, but I am not expecting a lot of the latter.

[bayernoatcake]

It’s clearly an issue. And is made worse by the structure at the club.

His record so far in the transfer market is poor but that’s being harsh.

[greenstokie]

MON was give 5p to spend in the last transfer window, so no expectations there. When he was at Shamrock Rovers, he cleared out the deadwood and quickly built a title winning side. Expect the same here.
Also, the virus may have changed everything. There could be many clubs looking to offload highearners at bargain basement transfer fees.

[Deleted]

It was clear our game plan for a return to the PL was to buy players who were tried and tested at this level and try to keep the nucleus of our PL team.

It has backfired spectacularly. We seem to have tried to carry it on though. The signings of Chester and Gregory evidence that.

It is clear the better teams in this League rely on young, athletic pacy players.

This should be the start and end point of any future transfers.

Experienced pros are great. Butland, Shawcross, Allen and maybe Clucas would be much better having some young pacy players around them.

[mrcoke]

Jul 16, 2020 23:06:39 GMT bayernoatcake said:

It’s clearly an issue. And is made worse by the structure at the club.

His record so far in the transfer market is poor but that’s being harsh.

How is the club going to attract quality players sitting above the relegation zone in the Championship? With a downward trajectory record like Sunderland, Wigan, Blackburn and lots of other ex Premier league sides who finished up in the third tier.

It's amazing anyone would want to join the club.

Clearly MON knows Thompson and whilst he is not anything special, MON can count on his loyalty and effort. At 20 Oakley Boothe is one for the future, not a relegation battle.

As for Chester, MON probably had to take what he was given. Now he's seen him he can go back to Villa.

The picture will be a lot rosier assuming we avoid relegation. Potential signings will see that MON has turned the club round and be far more minded to join us.

[bayernoatcake]

Jul 17, 2020 7:56:24 GMT mrcoke said:

Jul 16, 2020 23:06:39 GMT bayernoatcake said:

It’s clearly an issue. And is made worse by the structure at the club.

His record so far in the transfer market is poor but that’s being harsh.

How is the club going to attract quality players sitting above the relegation zone in the Championship? With a downward trajectory record like Sunderland, Wigan, Blackburn and lots of other ex Premier league sides who finished up in the third tier.

It's amazing anyone would want to join the club.

Clearly MON knows Thompson and whilst he is not anything special, MON can count on his loyalty and effort. At 20 Oakley Boothe is one for the future, not a relegation battle.

As for Chester, MON probably had to take what he was given. Now he's seen him he can go back to Villa.

The picture will be a lot rosier assuming we avoid relegation. Potential signings will see that MON has turned the club round and be far more minded to join us.

It doesn't mean you have to sign shit does it?

Chester and Thompson both seemed wholly unneccessary at the time and nothing has changed in 6 months to suggest otherwise.

I forgot about TOB but he seemed more a club signing that would have happened whoever was in charge.

And hopefully but I think that's not irrelevant but almost so with how bad the board are with transfers and MON's lack of experience there.

MON will have to learn fast and make up for the club failures.

[apb1]

The issue might well be offloading the crap. We are, as I understand it, and given that no one would match their wages, obliged to find loans for some players on higher wages simply to reduce our spend. FFP, which drives this, is out the window atm but is that going to be the case next season? If so, it might give us some freedom to sever ties, bring back Badou etc.

[mrcoke]

Jul 17, 2020 9:35:13 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Jul 17, 2020 7:56:24 GMT mrcoke said:

How is the club going to attract quality players sitting above the relegation zone in the Championship? With a downward trajectory record like Sunderland, Wigan, Blackburn and lots of other ex Premier league sides who finished up in the third tier.

It's amazing anyone would want to join the club.

Clearly MON knows Thompson and whilst he is not anything special, MON can count on his loyalty and effort. At 20 Oakley Boothe is one for the future, not a relegation battle.

As for Chester, MON probably had to take what he was given. Now he's seen him he can go back to Villa.

The picture will be a lot rosier assuming we avoid relegation. Potential signings will see that MON has turned the club round and be far more minded to join us.

It doesn't mean you have to sign shit does it? I agree, but the alternative would probably have been no one.

Chester and Thompson both seemed wholly unneccessary at the time and nothing has changed in 6 months to suggest otherwise.

I forgot about TOB but he seemed more a club signing that would have happened whoever was in charge. I agree, but as the CEO is quick to point out the manager approves all signings.

And hopefully but I think that's not irrelevant but almost so with how bad the board are with transfers and MON's lack of experience there.

MON will have to learn fast and make up for the club (insert: and previous managers) failures. 

MON has had lessons from the last two managers on what not to do and is paying the price.

MON was quick to remove players who don't want to play for us and have ambitions to be elsewhere. Presumably the reverse is true and he wants to sign players who are keen to play for Stoke, not just journey men earning a nice living. Ince's next club will be the 10th he has played for; we just have to find another manager who wants him and is prepared to pay his wage demands.

All manager's have a favourite way to play/formation and pick players to fit it; I expect MON is no different. He will have seen more players in a bigger pool than the last two managers, who seemed happy with 2nd and 3rd tier English league players, with odd exceptions. I expect MON will have been noting down club players he would like for a very long time should the opportunity arise. His job is to convince them to come to Stoke, and the CEO's job to secure the deal.

MON is a more mature than the last two managers and will have a large number of contacts and is a gregarious character who will "have friends". Just as Hughes was able to use his Spanish contacts, MON will be able to use his Scottish and Irish contacts to find out who are the young up and coming players a club like ours should be snapping up (Another Terry Conroy or Whelan would be nice!) He also has many contacts through his 8 years on the international scene, so we might get a few surprises like we did with Bojan and Muniesa.

[Edward Tattsyrup]

I don't understand why anyone would have any concerns on recruitment. as has been proven countless times, we have a world class recruitment process. No player will be considered until we have watched them at least 25 times and done a full character analysis.

Relax!

[bayernoatcake]

Jul 17, 2020 11:15:50 GMT mrcoke said:

Jul 17, 2020 9:35:13 GMT bayernoatcake said:

It doesn't mean you have to sign shit does it? I agree, but the alternative would probably have been no one.

Chester and Thompson both seemed wholly unneccessary at the time and nothing has changed in 6 months to suggest otherwise.

I forgot about TOB but he seemed more a club signing that would have happened whoever was in charge. I agree, but as the CEO is quick to point out the manager approves all signings.

And hopefully but I think that's not irrelevant but almost so with how bad the board are with transfers and MON's lack of experience there.

MON will have to learn fast and make up for the club (insert: and previous managers) failures. 

MON has had lessons from the last two managers on what not to do and is paying the price.

MON was quick to remove players who don't want to play for us and have ambitions to be elsewhere. Presumably the reverse is true and he wants to sign players who are keen to play for Stoke, not just journey men earning a nice living. Ince's next club will be the 10th he has played for; we just have to find another manager who wants him and is prepared to pay his wage demands.

All manager's have a favourite way to play/formation and pick players to fit it; I expect MON is no different. He will have seen more players in a bigger pool than the last two managers, who seemed happy with 2nd and 3rd tier English league players, with odd exceptions. I expect MON will have been noting down club players he would like for a very long time should the opportunity arise. His job is to convince them to come to Stoke, and the CEO's job to secure the deal.

MON is a more mature than the last two managers and will have a large number of contacts and is a gregarious character who will "have friends". Just as Hughes was able to use his Spanish contacts, MON will be able to use his Scottish and Irish contacts to find out who are the young up and coming players a club like ours should be snapping up (Another Terry Conroy or Whelan would be nice!) He also has many contacts through his 8 years on the international scene, so we might get a few surprises like we did with Bojan and Muniesa.

He also had lessons re that with the formation and still used the same one they did and it didn't work

We've seen time and time again that it actually means very little. The processes at the club are still shite.

Ince was great under Rowett and has been a good Championship player for most of his career.

It is and off the evidence so far his eye re Thompson and Chester is poor. It's a small evidence base and that's why I said it's harsh but that's what we have to judge and it's why it's is obviously an issue. Whether that bears out or not is a different matter but it's the one side of it where I think he will need help and I worry that help is Tony Scholes and cronies.

Your last paragraph, I don't really buy tbh.