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Post by towraytek on Jul 10, 2020 19:20:41 GMT
Sometimes the debate on here is based on the premise that we are the only shite team in the bottom seven. It seems to me that the whole of the bottom seven is pretty shite, the only difference being is that our shite cost more money than everyone else's shite put together.
Given that there are only 5 points separating shite #18 from shite #24 and still 3 or 4 games to go, any outcome is possible. There will be no certainty in this until the last kick of the last match*.
We have to put the Leeds result behind us, keep believing, and grind out the 4-5 points that keeps us in the Championship.
And then hope that the scare we have just had kick starts the Club heirachy into recognising that we have deep-rooted problemsthat needs addressing. Loadsamoney and good intentions is no substitute for good governance.
*assuming the Wigan issue is finalised by then!
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Post by Olgrligm on Jul 10, 2020 19:33:31 GMT
Good result for us if Luton win, in my opinion. They're still behind us in the table and it's a morale sapping home defeat that keeps Huddersfield right in it. In fact, Luton's goal difference is so appalling that a 4 or 5 goal win would be quite handy in giving Huddersfield's goal difference a good kicking. Really don't follow that logic at all. If that was the case, then by next Wednesday Luton and Hull could be above us with just two games left against Brentford and Forest. Huddersfield being kept right in it doesn't help us. I just want to keep as many teams as possible right in it and looking over their shoulder for as long as possible. I don't like the odds of three out of Barnsley, Luton, Hull and us, which is all too easy for us to cock up with a few freak results. I'm also fairly certain that Luton will do enough to pull themselves out of it, so I really don't fancy those odds. Much better to have a bottom six or seven, all of whom are just a couple of bad results away from sinking.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 10, 2020 19:41:46 GMT
Really don't follow that logic at all. If that was the case, then by next Wednesday Luton and Hull could be above us with just two games left against Brentford and Forest. Huddersfield being kept right in it doesn't help us. I just want to keep as many teams as possible right in it and looking over their shoulder for as long as possible. I don't like the odds of three out of Barnsley, Luton, Hull and us, which is all too easy for us to cock up with a few freak results. I'm also fairly certain that Luton will do enough to pull themselves out of it, so I really don't fancy those odds. Much better to have a bottom six or seven, all of whom are just a couple of bad results away from sinking. If we'd have played Brum today and lost, there wouldn't have been a single person cheering for a Luton win today. It's all very well saying that you think Luton will now do enough to survive when they've just won, you wouldn't be suggesting that if they had lost. That's exactly why we needed them to lose. And I really don't buy into all this stuff about if we're not good enough to save ourselves, then we deserve to go down, it's just idealistic nonsense. Relegation will be catastrophic for our club, I really couldn't give a fig HOW we survive.
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Post by Olgrligm on Jul 10, 2020 19:42:30 GMT
It just baffles me how Nathan can get his diamond to work (relatively) with what I believe to be one of the worst teams i've seen at this level for many a year yet our highly paid princesses could'nt or didn't want to do it. Even just doing it a little bit would have helped, but they completely switched off where players like James Collins, Luke Berry, Pelly Ruddock and Harry Cornick (Total cost - 100k) can do it seemingly with their eyes closed? It really isn't funny anymore. At the end of last season we had a poster reporting that the father of one our senior players wanted his son to leave if Jones persisted with his diamond. Five weeks into this season, we had one poster reporting that a different senior professional was going about in public telling supporters that our problems were all down to the diamond*, which wasn't good enough at this level. The implication was clear: we're a load of Premier League players and internationals, we know best and we're too good for your diamond. Just like they're too good to play away games in half empty second division stadia and too good to defend properly. It seems the same has happened now under O'Neil. It infuriates me because I really think that in a few years time we will be looking enviously at Luton and wondering what might have been. *We weren't even playing a diamond by that point!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 19:49:59 GMT
It just baffles me how Nathan can get his diamond to work (relatively) with what I believe to be one of the worst teams i've seen at this level for many a year yet our highly paid princesses could'nt or didn't want to do it. Even just doing it a little bit would have helped, but they completely switched off where players like James Collins, Luke Berry, Pelly Ruddock and Harry Cornick (Total cost - 100k) can do it seemingly with their eyes closed? It really isn't funny anymore. At the end of last season we had a poster reporting that the father of one our senior players wanted his son to leave if Jones persisted with his diamond. Five weeks into this season, we had one poster reporting that a different senior professional was going about in public telling supporters that our problems were all down to the diamond*, which wasn't good enough at this level. The implication was clear: we're a load of Premier League players and internationals, we know best and we're too good for your diamond. Just like they're too good to play away games in half empty second division stadia and too good to defend properly. It seems the same has happened now under O'Neil. It infuriates me because I really think that in a few years time we will be looking enviously at Luton and wondering what might have been. *We weren't even playing a diamond by that point! I know who the player of the father is. Who was the other player?
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Post by neddy on Jul 10, 2020 19:51:38 GMT
Everyone knows it was Ince he said it on tv! And the other?
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Post by chad on Jul 10, 2020 19:53:11 GMT
It could be one hell of a final day at the bottom
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Post by neddy on Jul 10, 2020 19:54:20 GMT
It could be one hell of a final day at the bottom Hope not my nerves can’t take it.....☹️
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 20:16:19 GMT
50 points should save us whichever way this or any other game goes. So many teams at the bottom have to play each other, they can't all get to 50, and it's unlikely that 3 will. On the flipside, it means that anything less than 50 probably will end in tears. Put it this way, if someone offered me 50 points now I'd snatch their hand off. 50 pts is just an arbitrary, traditional benchmark. It doesn't actually guarantee survival if enough bottom teams now go on a winning spree, notwithstanding that some have to play each other. We aren't going to survive by speculating how other teams do or don't do, For the time being, a little while longer, it's still within our own hands to decide our fate.
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Post by spiderpuss on Jul 10, 2020 20:22:17 GMT
50 points should save us whichever way this or any other game goes. So many teams at the bottom have to play each other, they can't all get to 50, and it's unlikely that 3 will. On the flipside, it means that anything less than 50 probably will end in tears. Put it this way, if someone offered me 50 points now I'd snatch their hand off. 50 pts is just an arbitrary, traditional benchmark. It doesn't actually guarantee survival if enough bottom teams now go on a winning spree, notwithstanding that some have to play each other. We aren't going to survive by speculating how other teams do or don't do, For the time being, a little while longer, it's still within our own hands to decide our fate. 52 is the highest points score to be relegated in this league.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Jul 10, 2020 20:24:14 GMT
Think we all need to calm down on here.
We have 4 games win 2 we're safe, 4 pts, possibly safe.
We have a team that can lose 3-0, 5-0, and can win 4-0. No one knows what will happen.
Get on the roller Coaster, buckle the belt and enjoy the ride.
Bottom line - if we go down, then we deserve it.
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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 10, 2020 20:28:05 GMT
I just want to keep as many teams as possible right in it and looking over their shoulder for as long as possible. I don't like the odds of three out of Barnsley, Luton, Hull and us, which is all too easy for us to cock up with a few freak results. I'm also fairly certain that Luton will do enough to pull themselves out of it, so I really don't fancy those odds. Much better to have a bottom six or seven, all of whom are just a couple of bad results away from sinking. If we'd have played Brum today and lost, there wouldn't have been a single person cheering for a Luton win today. It's all very well saying that you think Luton will now do enough to survive when they've just won, you wouldn't be suggesting that if they had lost. That's exactly why we needed them to lose. And I really don't buy into all this stuff about if we're not good enough to save ourselves, then we deserve to go down, it's just idealistic nonsense. Relegation will be catastrophic for our club, I really couldn't give a fig HOW we survive. The impact of any relegation six pointer can really only be assessed at the end of the season. There will be combinations of results that could relegate us or save us, and the outcome of one particular match could tip it either way. I can't be arsed to work it out, but there will inevitably be combinations of future results that would relegate us with a Huddersfield victory today, even though most people (including me) thought that was the preferable option. However, we can't rely on any combination of results to keep us up on 46 points because it's probably impossible, so we have got to get our own shit together and get to at least 50 points. Win on Sunday and today's Huddersfield/Luton result looks much better. There's no point getting too upset over these kind of games at the moment because there are too many unknowns. At least one team is going to end up getting points from them. The games that will really fuck us over are when the mid-table 'on the beach' sides get turned over by any of our rivals.
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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 10, 2020 20:31:46 GMT
50 points should save us whichever way this or any other game goes. So many teams at the bottom have to play each other, they can't all get to 50, and it's unlikely that 3 will. On the flipside, it means that anything less than 50 probably will end in tears. Put it this way, if someone offered me 50 points now I'd snatch their hand off. 50 pts is just an arbitrary, traditional benchmark. It doesn't actually guarantee survival if enough bottom teams now go on a winning spree, notwithstanding that some have to play each other. We aren't going to survive by speculating how other teams do or don't do, For the time being, a little while longer, it's still within our own hands to decide our fate. Yes, it could still happen. I've done the relegation predictor a few times though, was pretty pessimistic each time, and no-one went down on 50 whatever combination of miserable results I entered. We have to get as many as possible, but I can't see us getting anything from the last 2 games.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Jul 10, 2020 20:34:41 GMT
50 pts is just an arbitrary, traditional benchmark. It doesn't actually guarantee survival if enough bottom teams now go on a winning spree, notwithstanding that some have to play each other. We aren't going to survive by speculating how other teams do or don't do, For the time being, a little while longer, it's still within our own hands to decide our fate. Yes, it could still happen. I've done the relegation predictor a few times though, was pretty pessimistic each time, and no-one went down on 50 whatever combination of miserable results I entered. We have to get as many as possible, but I can't see us getting anything from the last 2 games. I did the Sentinel predictor. Got Stoke on 49 and we stayed up on goal difference. 3rd bottom was .... Huddersfield !! Good job they lost tonight!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 10, 2020 20:35:03 GMT
If we'd have played Brum today and lost, there wouldn't have been a single person cheering for a Luton win today. It's all very well saying that you think Luton will now do enough to survive when they've just won, you wouldn't be suggesting that if they had lost. That's exactly why we needed them to lose. And I really don't buy into all this stuff about if we're not good enough to save ourselves, then we deserve to go down, it's just idealistic nonsense. Relegation will be catastrophic for our club, I really couldn't give a fig HOW we survive. The impact of any relegation six pointer can really only be assessed at the end of the season. There will be combinations of results that could relegate us or save us, and the outcome of one particular match could tip it either way. I can't be arsed to work it out, but there will inevitably be combinations of future results that would relegate us with a Huddersfield victory today, even though most people (including me) thought that was the preferable option. However, we can't rely on any combination of results to keep us up on 46 points because it's probably impossible, so we have got to get our own shit together and get to at least 50 points. Win on Sunday and today's Huddersfield/Luton result looks much better. There's no point getting too upset over these kind of games at the moment because there are too many unknowns. At least one team is going to end up getting points from them. The games that will really fuck us over are when the mid-table 'on the beach' sides get turned over by any of our rivals. Of course but that doesn't alter the fact that a Luton win, was the worst possible result for us today.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Jul 10, 2020 20:42:16 GMT
The impact of any relegation six pointer can really only be assessed at the end of the season. There will be combinations of results that could relegate us or save us, and the outcome of one particular match could tip it either way. I can't be arsed to work it out, but there will inevitably be combinations of future results that would relegate us with a Huddersfield victory today, even though most people (including me) thought that was the preferable option. However, we can't rely on any combination of results to keep us up on 46 points because it's probably impossible, so we have got to get our own shit together and get to at least 50 points. Win on Sunday and today's Huddersfield/Luton result looks much better. There's no point getting too upset over these kind of games at the moment because there are too many unknowns. At least one team is going to end up getting points from them. The games that will really fuck us over are when the mid-table 'on the beach' sides get turned over by any of our rivals. Of course but that doesn't alter the fact that a Luton win, was the worst possible result for us today. It might be, it might not - it's certainly not a fact, given there we still have 4 games, and anything could go pear-shaped for the others, including some teams now feeling even more anxious.
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Post by jebbstuart on Jul 10, 2020 20:47:15 GMT
Luton won fact!, but we have to do it ourselves the teams below us are not going to lose all there games so its up to Stoke.
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Post by Gods on Jul 10, 2020 20:48:08 GMT
Must admit I was sceptical about the Championships return after lockdown, was it worth the bother, but it is serving up some excitement at the bottom.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Jul 10, 2020 20:49:15 GMT
Luton won fact!, but we have to do it ourselves the teams below us are not going to lose all there games so its up to Stoke. No one disputes the win was a fact - the conjecture about it being the worst possible result, is not a fact. It might turn out to be, it might not.
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Post by Cast no shadow on Jul 10, 2020 20:53:06 GMT
Just watching Fulham Cardiff match, we're a million miles away from Fulham quality wise
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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 10, 2020 20:55:14 GMT
The impact of any relegation six pointer can really only be assessed at the end of the season. There will be combinations of results that could relegate us or save us, and the outcome of one particular match could tip it either way. I can't be arsed to work it out, but there will inevitably be combinations of future results that would relegate us with a Huddersfield victory today, even though most people (including me) thought that was the preferable option. However, we can't rely on any combination of results to keep us up on 46 points because it's probably impossible, so we have got to get our own shit together and get to at least 50 points. Win on Sunday and today's Huddersfield/Luton result looks much better. There's no point getting too upset over these kind of games at the moment because there are too many unknowns. At least one team is going to end up getting points from them. The games that will really fuck us over are when the mid-table 'on the beach' sides get turned over by any of our rivals. Of course but that doesn't alter the fact that a Luton win, was the worst possible result for us today. It probably was, but reality might have other ideas in the future...we just don't know. If we draw tomorrow and go above Huddersfield, then neither Luton nor Huddersfield get above 47 points, today's result could be argued as the one that keeps us up. It's all ifs, buts, maybes. The games we desperately, unequivocally need to go one way this weekend are Charlton v Reading, Hull v Millwall and Middlesbrough v Bristol City. If any of the home sides win then it fucks us up, especially Hull. They're the ones I'll be shitting myself over. Barnsley v Wigan though is another, like today, that we think we might know the best outcome for, but which could end up, depending on future results, seeing the perceived 'best' outcome actually turn out to be the worst one!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 20:56:05 GMT
For me the only result that matters is that we win on Sunday. Whatever happened tonight someone was dropping points and no excuses for us not capitalising. A win puts us above Huddersfield and Birmingham no matter what happens elsewhere
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Post by abhill on Jul 10, 2020 20:56:58 GMT
50 pts is just an arbitrary, traditional benchmark. It doesn't actually guarantee survival if enough bottom teams now go on a winning spree, notwithstanding that some have to play each other. We aren't going to survive by speculating how other teams do or don't do, For the time being, a little while longer, it's still within our own hands to decide our fate. 52 is the highest points score to be relegated in this league. Peterborough went down with 54 points in 2013.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 10, 2020 20:58:19 GMT
Of course but that doesn't alter the fact that a Luton win, was the worst possible result for us today. It might be, it might not - it's certainly not a fact, given there we still have 4 games, and anything could go pear-shaped for the others, including some teams now feeling even more anxious. No, at this moment it is. Of course things change but the bookies will consider that at this moment, we're more likely to be relegated now, than had Luton lost. The opening question on this thread, was what was the best result for us? Well there's two answers to that question 1) Luton to lose or 2) The question is irrelevant until all the results are in at the end of the season.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 10, 2020 20:59:48 GMT
I just want to keep as many teams as possible right in it and looking over their shoulder for as long as possible. I don't like the odds of three out of Barnsley, Luton, Hull and us, which is all too easy for us to cock up with a few freak results. I'm also fairly certain that Luton will do enough to pull themselves out of it, so I really don't fancy those odds. Much better to have a bottom six or seven, all of whom are just a couple of bad results away from sinking. If we'd have played Brum today and lost, there wouldn't have been a single person cheering for a Luton win today. It's all very well saying that you think Luton will now do enough to survive when they've just won, you wouldn't be suggesting that if they had lost. That's exactly why we needed them to lose. And I really don't buy into all this stuff about if we're not good enough to save ourselves, then we deserve to go down, it's just idealistic nonsense. Relegation will be catastrophic for our club, I really couldn't give a fig HOW we survive. If you haven't already squared it with yourself that nathan god willing Jones will complete the job he started and help relegate us I suggest you start doing so
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Post by dirtygary69 on Jul 10, 2020 20:59:56 GMT
Tell you what, I hadn’t really realised how much of their PL core that Huddersfield still had there. Although not Stoke levels of appalling, they have their own huge issues there.
Just seen the stat showing that bottom 7 at the moment consists of last season’s promotion sides and 4 sides (Hull, Boro, Huddersfield and us) who have been relegated since 2017 and received parachute payments. None of them will be Stoke levels of bad, but does it show how much the PL can damage you if you get it wrong? Too many players on big contracts, not really good enough or giving enough coupled with managers “failing” and being replaced because they weren’t doing well enough for the owners/supporters. There’s a definite argument in there to give managers longer if it doesn’t seem to work right away after relegation. It’s been done to death and it felt right at the time, but with Rowett at the helm we’d at least have stabilised. What you get after life in the PL is the need to get back there purely for financial reasons and you probably get lost in that above everything else.
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Post by Olgrligm on Jul 10, 2020 21:00:25 GMT
At the end of last season we had a poster reporting that the father of one our senior players wanted his son to leave if Jones persisted with his diamond. Five weeks into this season, we had one poster reporting that a different senior professional was going about in public telling supporters that our problems were all down to the diamond*, which wasn't good enough at this level. The implication was clear: we're a load of Premier League players and internationals, we know best and we're too good for your diamond. Just like they're too good to play away games in half empty second division stadia and too good to defend properly. It seems the same has happened now under O'Neil. It infuriates me because I really think that in a few years time we will be looking enviously at Luton and wondering what might have been. *We weren't even playing a diamond by that point! I know who the player of the father is. Who was the other player? oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/292125/stephen-ward?page=1I just want to keep as many teams as possible right in it and looking over their shoulder for as long as possible. I don't like the odds of three out of Barnsley, Luton, Hull and us, which is all too easy for us to cock up with a few freak results. I'm also fairly certain that Luton will do enough to pull themselves out of it, so I really don't fancy those odds. Much better to have a bottom six or seven, all of whom are just a couple of bad results away from sinking. If we'd have played Brum today and lost, there wouldn't have been a single person cheering for a Luton win today. It's all very well saying that you think Luton will now do enough to survive when they've just won, you wouldn't be suggesting that if they had lost. That's exactly why we needed them to lose. And I really don't buy into all this stuff about if we're not good enough to save ourselves, then we deserve to go down, it's just idealistic nonsense. Relegation will be catastrophic for our club, I really couldn't give a fig HOW we survive. You'll have to take my word for it, but I was very much suggesting that Luton would stay up before tonight's game. I'm not buying into any of that stuff about 'oh, well, we deserve to go down', either. I just think that the best chance of us surviving would be with the pool of teams still in the mire spread as wide as possible, rather than a straight shootout between us and Hull/Luton/Barnsley.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 10, 2020 21:09:48 GMT
I know who the player of the father is. Who was the other player? oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/292125/stephen-ward?page=1If we'd have played Brum today and lost, there wouldn't have been a single person cheering for a Luton win today. It's all very well saying that you think Luton will now do enough to survive when they've just won, you wouldn't be suggesting that if they had lost. That's exactly why we needed them to lose. And I really don't buy into all this stuff about if we're not good enough to save ourselves, then we deserve to go down, it's just idealistic nonsense. Relegation will be catastrophic for our club, I really couldn't give a fig HOW we survive. You'll have to take my word for it, but I was very much suggesting that Luton would stay up before tonight's game. I'm not buying into any of that stuff about 'oh, well, we deserve to go down', either. I just think that the best chance of us surviving would be with the pool of teams still in the mire spread as wide as possible, rather than a straight shootout between us and Hull/Luton/Barnsley. If Huddersfield had won tonight, I don't think it would have meant that it would have resulted in a straight shoot out between just us Hull, Luton and Barnsley at all. And furthermore, it would have meant that Luton would have to win two of their remaining three games to finish above us, even if we didn't pick up another single point.
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Post by smallthorner on Jul 10, 2020 21:15:03 GMT
Tell you what, I hadn’t really realised how much of their PL core that Huddersfield still had there. Although not Stoke levels of appalling, they have their own huge issues there. Just seen the stat showing that bottom 7 at the moment consists of last season’s promotion sides and 4 sides (Hull, Boro, Huddersfield and us) who have been relegated since 2017 and received parachute payments. None of them will be Stoke levels of bad, but does it show how much the PL can damage you if you get it wrong? Too many players on big contracts, not really good enough or giving enough coupled with managers “failing” and being replaced because they weren’t doing well enough for the owners/supporters. There’s a definite argument in there to give managers longer if it doesn’t seem to work right away after relegation. It’s been done to death and it felt right at the time, but with Rowett at the helm we’d at least have stabilised. What you get after life in the PL is the need to get back there purely for financial reasons and you probably get lost in that above everything else. How many of yesterday's team got relegated with Stoke from the Prem?
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jul 10, 2020 21:17:03 GMT
Of course but that doesn't alter the fact that a Luton win, was the worst possible result for us today. It probably was, but reality might have other ideas in the future...we just don't know. If we draw tomorrow and go above Huddersfield, then neither Luton nor Huddersfield get above 47 points, today's result could be argued as the one that keeps us up. It's all ifs, buts, maybes. The games we desperately, unequivocally need to go one way this weekend are Charlton v Reading, Hull v Millwall and Middlesbrough v Bristol City. If any of the home sides win then it fucks us up, especially Hull. They're the ones I'll be shitting myself over. Barnsley v Wigan though is another, like today, that we think we might know the best outcome for, but which could end up, depending on future results, seeing the perceived 'best' outcome actually turn out to be the worst one! Hull are at least going down fighting, showing decent attitude and playing like it actually means something to them. If we lose Sunday I don’t see us surviving
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