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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 22, 2024 13:24:56 GMT
With respect, that's utter bollocks mate. The Attlee government were obsessed with nationalising everything. Rationing of bread was introduced in 1946, which didn't even happen during the war. GDP actually declined from 1945 to 1947. The Labour government was thrown out as a failure, as it was again in 1970 after more nationalisation, stagflation, and devaluation. Rationing was gradually removed by the Tories and fully completed in 1954, and consistant growth occurred through the 1950s. Actually aided by high immigration incidentally. www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom/Spoken like a true Tory. And still bollocks. |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 22, 2024 15:00:16 GMT
The Attlee government were obsessed with nationalising everything. Rationing of bread was introduced in 1946, which didn't even happen during the war. GDP actually declined from 1945 to 1947. The Labour government was thrown out as a failure, as it was again in 1970 after more nationalisation, stagflation, and devaluation. Rationing was gradually removed by the Tories and fully completed in 1954, and consistant growth occurred through the 1950s. Actually aided by high immigration incidentally. www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom/Spoken like a true Tory. And still bollocks. Like most supporters of a political party/ideology, you find the truth hurts. potmd.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/how-far-was-the-labour-party-responsible-for-its-own-downfall-in-1951/Like most governments, the Labour government lost in 1951 because of their own performance, what MacMillian called " events", and their usual internal divisions; not particularly because the country wanted the Tories back. I ceased to have any political allegiance in the 1980s after spending most of the 70s and 80s fighting against the Tories and the Labour loony left. I now strongly believe all politicians should be kept on a tight rein, so they can be removed from representation by the public, and we should certainly not give any power to foreign politicians and bureaucrats under any circumstances. |
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Post by Gawa on Nov 22, 2024 15:51:43 GMT
Spoken like a true Tory. And still bollocks. , and we should certainly not give any power to foreign politicians and bureaucrats under any circumstances. But we should give power of our services, resources and infrastructures to foreign corporations instead? And who are those corporations accountable to? Shareholders. And so who will they be serving the interests of The British public or their shareholders? |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Nov 22, 2024 16:03:01 GMT
, and we should certainly not give any power to foreign politicians and bureaucrats under any circumstances. But we should give power of our services, resources and infrastructures to foreign corporations instead? And who are those corporations accountable to? Shareholders. And so who will they be serving the interests of The British public or their shareholders? Well Starmer has nailed his colours to BlackRocks mast anyway it would appear. And lets not forget he's already said WEF ahead of Westminster in terms of where decisions should come from. |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 22, 2024 16:20:33 GMT
, and we should certainly not give any power to foreign politicians and bureaucrats under any circumstances. But we should give power of our services, resources and infrastructures to foreign corporations instead? And who are those corporations accountable to? Shareholders. And so who will they be serving the interests of The British public or their shareholders? Now you're being silly. Ownership is not power. Everyone including business is subject to the law. If foreign owned water companies pollute rivers that is the UK government's fault for not controlling them by prosecution. The UK has huge investments around the world, are you saying foreign owned companies should not be allowed to invest in the UK? I worked for Tata the largest manufacturing employer in the UK, but had to abide by all UK legislation. We also had to abide by EU legislation made by politicians and bureaucrats who have no accountability to UK citizens, but thankfully that is no longer. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 22, 2024 16:20:37 GMT
Spoken like a true Tory. And still bollocks. Like most supporters of a political party/ideology, you find the truth hurts. potmd.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/how-far-was-the-labour-party-responsible-for-its-own-downfall-in-1951/Like most governments, the Labour government lost in 1951 because of their own performance, what MacMillian called " events", and their usual internal divisions; not particularly because the country wanted the Tories back. I ceased to have any political allegiance in the 1980s after spending most of the 70s and 80s fighting against the Tories and the Labour loony left. I now strongly believe all politicians should be kept on a tight rein, so they can be removed from representation by the public, and we should certainly not give any power to foreign politicians and bureaucrats under any circumstances. That's certainly an idiosyncratic take on a government which most neutral academic observers regard as one of the most successful of the 20th century, with Attlee often considered the best PM of that century. Attlee's Labour won in 1945 and again in 1950, then lost narrowly (on seats) despite winning more votes overall in 1951 - a phenomenon not unlike the collapse of the Tory vote to Reform allowing Labour to win a landslide. FPTP, eh, what a great system! Like most of your Brexit stuff, your comments here are somewhat disingenuous. |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 22, 2024 18:42:34 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Nov 22, 2024 20:26:17 GMT
That is rather old news and I wouldn't betting against Liberty Steel's collapse Earlier this month Liberty announced another ne restructuring plan, basically asking it's creditors to take a haircut on its massive debt. The plan requires 75% of the creditors to agree otherwise the Courts force it into liquidation The odds don't look good judging by the reaction of one of its Creditors www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwy18kl0pk4o |
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Post by Gawa on Nov 22, 2024 21:41:11 GMT
But we should give power of our services, resources and infrastructures to foreign corporations instead? And who are those corporations accountable to? Shareholders. And so who will they be serving the interests of The British public or their shareholders? Now you're being silly. Ownership is not power. Everyone including business is subject to the law. If foreign owned water companies pollute rivers that is the UK government's fault for not controlling them by prosecution. The UK has huge investments around the world, are you saying foreign owned companies should not be allowed to invest in the UK? I worked for Tata the largest manufacturing employer in the UK, but had to abide by all UK legislation. We also had to abide by EU legislation made by politicians and bureaucrats who have no accountability to UK citizens, but thankfully that is no longer. Corporations in a capitalist world are driven by profit. Nobody opens a business to lose money. So profits will always come before the needs of the people as without that the corporation can't survive. So when the likes of our water is owned by ourselves we are in control. When it's owned by foreign investors you'll never get the same value for money because its only sustainable with profits, and thus it is us who pay for it. I'm saying certain industries should be nationalised and kept in house as that is how we keep control, not by selling them to someone across the world who's number one priority is to profit. Unfortunately though what then can happen is the corporations can grow more powerful than the governments themselves and we all know how much money can influence people. So then you end up in a system of dependency on these corporations which are all intermingled through different investment funds like Blackrock where if you do propose policy changes which impact their profits you run the risk of "spooking the markets" and causing further devastation. So then who is really in control? For all its sins the Russian government seems to have down a tremendous job of renationalising all the corporations forced to leave through sanctions. But anyway this is where you confused me MrCoke because with time your brexit arguments have grown on me and actually I feel there are areas I'm more agreeable with you there than before and maybe life outside the EU can be prosperous. But you can't preach about soveirngity and being in control of our country while at the same time being the biggest cheerleader of privatisation as I feel that's rather contradictory. Foreign investment is fine but you also need to protect your economic soveirgnity at the same time or you become dependant on it. And then who is really calling the shots? A good example is the United States Prisons. I watched a documentary on them around 6 years ago where numerous judges and others were corrupted and sending teenagers to youth offender prisons for petty reasons. It later transpired the prison owners were paying them vast sums to put more people in prison because they made significant profits per prisoner. I'd rather have more industries in the hands of the people I elect that I can hold to account. Rather than them being in the hands of people who can influence the media, public opinion and politicians through their money to then make our elected politicians work for them rather than their constituents. And if you don't see the risks to our soverignity from an over reliance on Foreign and private investment then I'm not sure if you really care about sovereignty as much as you profess. Why do you think our governments aren't doing anything when energy companies and supermarkets make record profits but all our prices keep going up and we are getting poorer? Wouldn't we be better utilising more windfall taxes to ensure that money stays in our economy? Rather than allowing the record profits which then leave our country through private investment? Data Centres are now seen as critical national infrastructure in the uk. And who is building them? Microsoft, Google and Amazon. So where are billions of pounds from our economy going there? Across the antlantic. I'm also not sure how having our data centres with sensitive data and information in the hands of foreign investors protects our soverignity either. Would you support it in the hands of a Chinese or Russian company? |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 22, 2024 22:17:08 GMT
That is rather old news and I wouldn't betting against Liberty Steel's collapse Earlier this month Liberty announced another ne restructuring plan, basically asking it's creditors to take a haircut on its massive debt. The plan requires 75% of the creditors to agree otherwise the Courts force it into liquidation The odds don't look good judging by the reaction of one of its Creditors www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwy18kl0pk4oYou missed the point I was making which is that there have been dealings with BlackRock and Silver Point Finance going on for years. I could have posted an earlier 2021 link. I've no idea whether efforts to save the Scunthorpe and other north east works will succeed. Jingye are clearly trying to squeeze as much finance out of the government as they can. If Starmer does not play ball then I expect they will walk away, as SSI did at Teesside in 2015 and leave the UK tax payer to pick up the bill of clearing the site. I was one of a thousand and more people who spent over a decade building Redcar into a viable operation during the 70s and early 80s, making it fit for privitisation in 1987. It took Anna Soubry, the then industry minister just 10 days in 2015 to decide to shut the works on the grounds no one wanted to buy it, but Hargreaves were interested in buying the coke ovens. She just said "Shut it." Hopefully Starmer asked Xi to lean on Jingye. The Scunthorpe rail business is doing very well. I am optimistic for 2025 and that Starmer can boost investment. Membership of CPTPP starts next month, Reeves is reportedly to be going to China early next year. (New) Trade agreements with India, Gulf States, Israel, South Korea, Switzerland , and Turkey are in the offing. Who knows which way Trump will jump! As for Starmer getting "closer" to the EU, it hardly seems worth it with the Euro zone economies in decline. He needs to get some successes next year before the unions and loony left start splitting the party again. Starmer has not got the charisma of Blair to keep things together, nor a Prescott for a bruiser-sidekick. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 22, 2024 22:17:35 GMT
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 22, 2024 22:49:47 GMT
The thing I complained about re covid was ministers getting their mates to set up companies who had no history of providing ppe and then awarding them massive contracts. The actual PPE providers who got awarded big contracts were the right people to give the contracts to. Who else is better placed to provide PPE in an emergency than companies with a history of providing PPE? Vince has been in green energy for the best part of 50 years. Who is better placed to assist the government with green energy? Unless you are suggesting he set up his company 50 years ago in anticipation of this moment in 2024, then where is the corruption or cronyism? i assume you believe there is cronyism in the AG appointment? And the justice minister appointment, the guy who heads Timpsons? He must have known by giving jobs to ex convicts for all these years was building up to this 2024 government, right!? The covid fast track system with new companies and this couldn’t be further apart. I believe its cronyism because the green party actually wanted to invest significantly more in green energy through taxes which would impact people like Dale. Labour on the other hand changed their green investment pledge to suddenly be a joint private investment venture. And Dale a green advocate jumps ship. Most people switching between Green and Labour went the other direction last election. So what was it which made "green" Dale jump on board with Labour oggy? Lower taxes and cushy contracts? Or a sudden realisation that Keir Starmer and Labour just match all his political beliefs? Maybe I'm the naive one. All aboard 🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃 |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 22, 2024 23:25:50 GMT
That is rather old news and I wouldn't betting against Liberty Steel's collapse Earlier this month Liberty announced another ne restructuring plan, basically asking it's creditors to take a haircut on its massive debt. The plan requires 75% of the creditors to agree otherwise the Courts force it into liquidation The odds don't look good judging by the reaction of one of its Creditors www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwy18kl0pk4oYou missed the point I was making which is that there have been dealings with BlackRock and Silver Point Finance going on for years. I could have posted an earlier 2021 link. I've no idea whether efforts to save the Scunthorpe and other north east works will succeed. Jingye are clearly trying to squeeze as much finance out of the government as they can. If Starmer does not play ball then I expect they will walk away, as SSI did at Teesside in 2015 and leave the UK tax payer to pick up the bill of clearing the site. I was one of a thousand and more people who spent over a decade building Redcar into a viable operation during the 70s and early 80s, making it fit for privitisation in 1987. It took Anna Soubry, the then industry minister just 10 days in 2015 to decide to shut the works on the grounds no one wanted to buy it, but Hargreaves were interested in buying the coke ovens. She just said "Shut it." Hopefully Starmer asked Xi to lean on Jingye. The Scunthorpe rail business is doing very well. I am optimistic for 2025 and that Starmer can boost investment. Membership of CPTPP starts next month, Reeves is reportedly to be going to China early next year. (New) Trade agreements with India, Gulf States, Israel, South Korea, Switzerland , and Turkey are in the offing. Who knows which way Trump will jump! As for Starmer getting "closer" to the EU, it hardly seems worth it with the Euro zone economies in decline. He needs to get some successes next year before the unions and loony left start splitting the party again. Starmer has not got the charisma of Blair to keep things together, nor a Prescott for a bruiser-sidekick. And you miss my point. Black Rock and Silver Point lent Liberty Steel £350M in an Asset Based Finance deal. I guarantee that when Liberty Steel almost certainly collapses Black Rock and Silver Point will pick over its carcass and recover its investment and then some Starmer would be rather foolish, some say he is, to get involved in a bailout of Liberty Steel while its being investigated by SFO due to its opaque transactions with Greensill and being sued for fraud in several other Countries. The owner of Liberty Steel Sanjeev Gupta will do well to avoid going to Gaol but I'm sure he'll stretch it out for years and a deal will eventually be done. Obviously I support much needed Investment in UK and Government/Private Partnerships, I said so several times on here. It's your bizarre selection of Liberty Steel as a good example of Black Rock's Investments in UK is quite ridiculous. |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 23, 2024 0:03:41 GMT
I believe its cronyism because the green party actually wanted to invest significantly more in green energy through taxes which would impact people like Dale. Labour on the other hand changed their green investment pledge to suddenly be a joint private investment venture. And Dale a green advocate jumps ship. Most people switching between Green and Labour went the other direction last election. So what was it which made "green" Dale jump on board with Labour oggy? Lower taxes and cushy contracts? Or a sudden realisation that Keir Starmer and Labour just match all his political beliefs? Maybe I'm the naive one. All aboard 🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃 I personally have no clue about the Climate debate, I don't get involved in the thread I have nothing to contribute. Instinctively I believe what Science is saying that the Earth is getting warmer because in my 70th year I can see more frequency of instances of destruction caused by Weather Patterns. I don't know if you are a Climate Supporter or Denier and either way it's irrelevant to my point. I fully endorse your implication that irrespective of whether Climate change is a "Thing" there will be genuine people that want "to do good" whether they are misguided or not and then you have charlatans like Chris Skidm arkore who simply play the system by inveigling themselves into positions of influence and then milking that Cash Cow until its dry. Some people have a very quaint idea about Sovereignty and Accountability and the role of Parliament in openness with checks and balances to keep everything above board and if/when proved incompetent can be voted out. Yet the reality is that this Jackass by a stroke of the Pen, as your imagery admirably shows, using Ministerial Privaledge can sign Secondary Legislation without any scrutiny of Parliament which commits UK on a path 20+ years into the future. I get people's angst about FPTP but, to me at least, this is the biggest flaw in our Parliamentary Democracy System that too much power is invested in potentially nincompoops who may have an eye on the main chance. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 23, 2024 7:06:55 GMT
I personally have no clue about the Climate debate, I don't get involved in the thread I have nothing to contribute. Instinctively I believe what Science is saying that the Earth is getting warmer because in my 70th year I can see more frequency of instances of destruction caused by Weather Patterns. I don't know if you are a Climate Supporter or Denier and either way it's irrelevant to my point. I fully endorse your implication that irrespective of whether Climate change is a "Thing" there will be genuine people that want "to do good" whether they are misguided or not and then you have charlatans like Chris Skidm arkore who simply play the system by inveigling themselves into positions of influence and then milking that Cash Cow until its dry. Some people have a very quaint idea about Sovereignty and Accountability and the role of Parliament in openness with checks and balances to keep everything above board and if/when proved incompetent can be voted out. Yet the reality is that this Jackass by a stroke of the Pen, as your imagery admirably shows, using Ministerial Privaledge can sign Secondary Legislation without any scrutiny of Parliament which commits UK on a path 20+ years into the future. I get people's angst about FPTP but, to me at least, this is the biggest flaw in our Parliamentary Democracy System that too much power is invested in potentially nincompoops who may have an eye on the main chance. I work in and around it, and have done for nearly 20 years. We're worrying about the wrong part of the problem in this country. Weatherproofing the existing housing stock and repairing , renewing, enlarging the existing drainage and water collection infrastructure should be our priorities. I'm not suggesting that we ignore opportunities to better insulate or introduce renewables, where appropriate to the stock, but that we follow a more holistic approach as recommended by Peter Rickaby (he's an insulation and ventilation expert, the best tutor I've had the privilege to be educated by). Creating these 'bubbles' of targeted measures will only lead to half arsed and ill considered approaches being employed. My worry is that it'll cause more harm than good in the long term. Case in point being CWI retrofit, existing installs made under waterfront grants in the early to mid 2000s are being removed due to failure, poor installation etc. The removal is charged for, but then when empty you can apply for a fresh grant for a 'virgin' install. It's absolutely bonkers. There's a company called Q-Bot that use a remote control vehicle to spray insulation underneath uninsulated timber floorboards. I'm hugely cynical at the best of times, but I just don't see that being a good thing in the long term. It becomes a cycle of boom & bust, once the government incentives dry up the installers either change tack and chase the next opportunity or go bust, it's usually one or the other. Locally somebody like Broadoak and BGC are good examples. It's your money that's being spent doing this, I just think there's a massive amount of ignorance from the general public around this, allowing zealots and imbeciles like Milliband and the idiot in the tweet to do huge amounts of unchecked damage. |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 23, 2024 9:51:44 GMT
You missed the point I was making which is that there have been dealings with BlackRock and Silver Point Finance going on for years. I could have posted an earlier 2021 link. I've no idea whether efforts to save the Scunthorpe and other north east works will succeed. Jingye are clearly trying to squeeze as much finance out of the government as they can. If Starmer does not play ball then I expect they will walk away, as SSI did at Teesside in 2015 and leave the UK tax payer to pick up the bill of clearing the site. I was one of a thousand and more people who spent over a decade building Redcar into a viable operation during the 70s and early 80s, making it fit for privitisation in 1987. It took Anna Soubry, the then industry minister just 10 days in 2015 to decide to shut the works on the grounds no one wanted to buy it, but Hargreaves were interested in buying the coke ovens. She just said "Shut it." Hopefully Starmer asked Xi to lean on Jingye. The Scunthorpe rail business is doing very well. I am optimistic for 2025 and that Starmer can boost investment. Membership of CPTPP starts next month, Reeves is reportedly to be going to China early next year. (New) Trade agreements with India, Gulf States, Israel, South Korea, Switzerland , and Turkey are in the offing. Who knows which way Trump will jump! As for Starmer getting "closer" to the EU, it hardly seems worth it with the Euro zone economies in decline. He needs to get some successes next year before the unions and loony left start splitting the party again. Starmer has not got the charisma of Blair to keep things together, nor a Prescott for a bruiser-sidekick. And you miss my point. Black Rock and Silver Point lent Liberty Steel £350M in an Asset Based Finance deal. I guarantee that when Liberty Steel almost certainly collapses Black Rock and Silver Point will pick over its carcass and recover its investment and then some Starmer would be rather foolish, some say he is, to get involved in a bailout of Liberty Steel while its being investigated by SFO due to its opaque transactions with Greensill and being sued for fraud in several other Countries. The owner of Liberty Steel Sanjeev Gupta will do well to avoid going to Gaol but I'm sure he'll stretch it out for years and a deal will eventually be done. Obviously I support much needed Investment in UK and Government/Private Partnerships, I said so several times on here. It's your bizarre selection of Liberty Steel as a good example of Black Rock's Investments in UK is quite ridiculous. I repeat you have missed the point of my post, and are going off on another tangent about the morality of BlackRock and others. At what part in my post did I say " Liberty Steel as a good example of Black Rock's Investments in UK" ? Starmer is trying to save jobs in the steel industry and try and keep a steel industry and has to talk to anybody who might invest including those already involved. Or would you simply prefer the government stand back and Liberty employees are thrown out of work as happened under the Tories in the case of SSI at Teesside in 2015? My post was in response to an earlier post by oggy that pasted a statement that Starmer should not be "working in partnership with leading businesses, like @blackrock, to capitalise on the UK’s position as a world leading hub for investment" and pointing out that BlackRock have been involved in this issue for years, and Starmer was simply engaging in an ongoing process. Whereas the false impression was being given that Starmer was initiating or inviting BlackRock's involvement. I hope this clarifies my position. As for dealing with undesirable immoral parties, I am not in favour in principle, but we have little choice trading with China, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. etc. That's the world we live in. At least we have stopped dealing with Russia (no doubt I'll be corrected) unlike some others: www.energyconnects.com/news/gas-lng/2024/november/france-lng-imports-from-russia-surge-to-annual-record-data-show/ |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 23, 2024 12:09:46 GMT
Now you're being silly. Ownership is not power. Everyone including business is subject to the law. If foreign owned water companies pollute rivers that is the UK government's fault for not controlling them by prosecution. The UK has huge investments around the world, are you saying foreign owned companies should not be allowed to invest in the UK? I worked for Tata the largest manufacturing employer in the UK, but had to abide by all UK legislation. We also had to abide by EU legislation made by politicians and bureaucrats who have no accountability to UK citizens, but thankfully that is no longer. Corporations in a capitalist world are driven by profit. Nobody opens a business to lose money. So profits will always come before the needs of the people as without that the corporation can't survive. So when the likes of our water is owned by ourselves we are in control. When it's owned by foreign investors you'll never get the same value for money because its only sustainable with profits, and thus it is us who pay for it. I'm saying certain industries should be nationalised and kept in house as that is how we keep control, not by selling them to someone across the world who's number one priority is to profit. Unfortunately though what then can happen is the corporations can grow more powerful than the governments themselves and we all know how much money can influence people. So then you end up in a system of dependency on these corporations which are all intermingled through different investment funds like Blackrock where if you do propose policy changes which impact their profits you run the risk of "spooking the markets" and causing further devastation. So then who is really in control? For all its sins the Russian government seems to have down a tremendous job of renationalising all the corporations forced to leave through sanctions. But anyway this is where you confused me MrCoke because with time your brexit arguments have grown on me and actually I feel there are areas I'm more agreeable with you there than before and maybe life outside the EU can be prosperous. But you can't preach about soveirngity and being in control of our country while at the same time being the biggest cheerleader of privatisation as I feel that's rather contradictory. Foreign investment is fine but you also need to protect your economic soveirgnity at the same time or you become dependant on it. And then who is really calling the shots? A good example is the United States Prisons. I watched a documentary on them around 6 years ago where numerous judges and others were corrupted and sending teenagers to youth offender prisons for petty reasons. It later transpired the prison owners were paying them vast sums to put more people in prison because they made significant profits per prisoner. I'd rather have more industries in the hands of the people I elect that I can hold to account. Rather than them being in the hands of people who can influence the media, public opinion and politicians through their money to then make our elected politicians work for them rather than their constituents. And if you don't see the risks to our soverignity from an over reliance on Foreign and private investment then I'm not sure if you really care about sovereignty as much as you profess. Why do you think our governments aren't doing anything when energy companies and supermarkets make record profits but all our prices keep going up and we are getting poorer? Wouldn't we be better utilising more windfall taxes to ensure that money stays in our economy? Rather than allowing the record profits which then leave our country through private investment? Data Centres are now seen as critical national infrastructure in the uk. And who is building them? Microsoft, Google and Amazon. So where are billions of pounds from our economy going there? Across the antlantic. I'm also not sure how having our data centres with sensitive data and information in the hands of foreign investors protects our soverignity either. Would you support it in the hands of a Chinese or Russian company? Where to start in replying to you? A capitalist society generates more wealth, is more efficient, advances faster, is more liberal, and more free than a socialist society. It has one major failing in that it can lead to a more unequal or unfair society and higher proportion of poverty, which is where governments come in. It is the role of government to regulate and redistribute wealth; some do it well like Scandinavian countries and other examples like New Zealand. Other larger democracies do it less well, usually as you suggest because powerful corporations hold too much power and influence, but there are other factors such a defence, where some countries take on a greater role defending freedom and democracy which reduces the amount available for social needs. The larger an organization, the more difficult it is to manage, which is why some companies have split up in the past and why nationalised industries are generally so inefficient. Socialism has failed as it does not work efficiently. A prime example is Germany which went two separate ways after WW11. By the time of reunification, capitalist West Germany had advanced to being one of the world's richest societies, whilst much of East Germany was still stuck in the 1930s with cobbled streets, gas lighting, poor living standards, etc. The Soviet Union broke up due to economic failure. I find your condemnation of America and praise for Russia' nationalisation alarming. America is one of the least corrupt countries in the world, certainly in the top Q1 quartile, despite what may be happening in prisons. Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, certainly in the bottom Q4 quartile. I have no problem with free trade and free investment between countries provided it is done on mutually agreed terms. Most importantly though on terms agreed by government accountable to the people. Which leads to soverignity. The definition is quite clear and in the UK's case sovereignty clearly lies in the House of Commons and the elected representatives of the people. The largest party (ies) form the government and everyone else including the monarch, HoL, judges, and businesses have to abide by the rules they set. If things don't go well, that is the fault of government's failure to govern, including failure to regulate large foreign owned corporations, irresponsible landlords, and profiteering, etc. Government is in control, they just don't always do it well, particularly in larger countries where the problem of governing is much greater. It certainly does not work well in amalgamations like the Soviet Union, or indeed the EU. It is better to devolve power to individual countries and regions and make local politicians accountable to the people they represent, rather than centralising power. But I accept that it can be advantageous for countries to pool resources to tackle individual common issues such as defence or trade, without giving up their independence. There will always be a conflict between freedom and equality and I would not want important assets to be under the control of corrupt regimes or organisations, but that is not a justification for nationalisation. Governments are bad enough at governing, when it comes to commerce and managing business they are hopeless and are better to leave it to the professionals keeping an independent regulatory eye, or, if necessary, a part share interest to be fully aware of what is going on, particularly if a lot of tax payers money has been invested. I am pleased that my Brexit arguments have grown on you, it's over 4 years since I spelt out my reasons for supporting Brexit on page 1,232 of the Brexit thread and everything that has happened since has reinforced my views on the importance of sovereignty, democracy, and judiciary lying in the UK not elsewhere. The economic argument is much more complex and long term as it will take many years to unravel 47 years of membership and slowly take advantage of being in the 85% of the world economy with new trading arrangements than being stuck inside the EU which represents a shrinking proportion of the world economy, where the only real consistant economic growth is on the opposite side of the continent. This thread is about panning Starmer essentially, but I hope he is successful in his goals to turn round the country's fortunes by going for growth. It is only by making the cake bigger can the poor and needy get a larger share. Threats of increased control, higher taxes, and penalising success will only drive investors elsewhere and lead to increased poverty and reduced public services. |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 23, 2024 13:03:50 GMT
And you miss my point. Black Rock and Silver Point lent Liberty Steel £350M in an Asset Based Finance deal. I guarantee that when Liberty Steel almost certainly collapses Black Rock and Silver Point will pick over its carcass and recover its investment and then some Starmer would be rather foolish, some say he is, to get involved in a bailout of Liberty Steel while its being investigated by SFO due to its opaque transactions with Greensill and being sued for fraud in several other Countries. The owner of Liberty Steel Sanjeev Gupta will do well to avoid going to Gaol but I'm sure he'll stretch it out for years and a deal will eventually be done. Obviously I support much needed Investment in UK and Government/Private Partnerships, I said so several times on here. It's your bizarre selection of Liberty Steel as a good example of Black Rock's Investments in UK is quite ridiculous. I repeat you have missed the point of my post, and are going off on another tangent about the morality of BlackRock and others. At what part in my post did I say " Liberty Steel as a good example of Black Rock's Investments in UK" ? Starmer is trying to save jobs in the steel industry and try and keep a steel industry and has to talk to anybody who might invest including those already involved. Or would you simply prefer the government stand back and Liberty employees are thrown out of work as happened under the Tories in the case of SSI at Teesside in 2015? My post was in response to an earlier post by oggy that pasted a statement that Starmer should not be "working in partnership with leading businesses, like @blackrock, to capitalise on the UK’s position as a world leading hub for investment" and pointing out that BlackRock have been involved in this issue for years, and Starmer was simply engaging in an ongoing process. Whereas the false impression was being given that Starmer was initiating or inviting BlackRock's involvement. I hope this clarifies my position. As for dealing with undesirable immoral parties, I am not in favour in principle, but we have little choice trading with China, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. etc. That's the world we live in. At least we have stopped dealing with Russia (no doubt I'll be corrected) unlike some others: www.energyconnects.com/news/gas-lng/2024/november/france-lng-imports-from-russia-surge-to-annual-record-data-show/You have gone even further in misunderstanding my point You linked an article about Liberty Steel restructuring aided by Black Rock and Silver Point. Why else would you link it if you didn't think it was a good example. You are just being silly to say otherwise I have no problem with Black Rock or Silver Point investing in UK, I welcome it and have not questioned them but if you work with them you better pay attention. Liberty Steel is very much a different case as is its Owner Sanjeev Gupta who is not only being investigated by UK Serious Fraud Office and is facing either business or criminal litigation or both in practically every Country they are operating in. I well aware there are 5,000 jobs at stake in UK as well as specialty Steel capability (which they bought from Tata) but Starmer couldn't possibly get involved in a bailout of Liberty Steel. It is almost certain Liberty Steel will enter Liquidation, Creditors will lose out, but Black Rock and Silver Point won't because they were smart enough to secure their £350M loan against Assets I'd hazard a guess are quite easily sold and far exceeding a value of £350M Let me also burst your bubble, as you expected someone would, about UKs alleged purity in not trading in Russian LNG, you couldn't be more wrong. This Glasgow based firm owns many of the Ships that are transporting LNG from Siberia and Lloyd's are Insuring them. www.thenational.scot/news/24681571.calls-ban-glasgow-shipping-firm-exporting-russian-gas/ |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 23, 2024 13:06:29 GMT
Spoken like a true Tory. And still bollocks. Like most supporters of a political party/ideology, you find the truth hurts. potmd.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/how-far-was-the-labour-party-responsible-for-its-own-downfall-in-1951/Like most governments, the Labour government lost in 1951 because of their own performance, what MacMillian called " events", and their usual internal divisions; not particularly because the country wanted the Tories back. I ceased to have any political allegiance in the 1980s after spending most of the 70s and 80s fighting against the Tories and the Labour loony left. I now strongly believe all politicians should be kept on a tight rein, so they can be removed from representation by the public, and we should certainly not give any power to foreign politicians and bureaucrats under any circumstances. It's funny because you sit there typing with the benefit of all that free education, when you were ill you had free healthcare, if you had at anytime been in need of help you'd have received it. So yes, you're talking bollocks Mr Coke. |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 23, 2024 13:59:15 GMT
I repeat you have missed the point of my post, and are going off on another tangent about the morality of BlackRock and others. At what part in my post did I say " Liberty Steel as a good example of Black Rock's Investments in UK" ? Starmer is trying to save jobs in the steel industry and try and keep a steel industry and has to talk to anybody who might invest including those already involved. Or would you simply prefer the government stand back and Liberty employees are thrown out of work as happened under the Tories in the case of SSI at Teesside in 2015? My post was in response to an earlier post by oggy that pasted a statement that Starmer should not be "working in partnership with leading businesses, like @blackrock, to capitalise on the UK’s position as a world leading hub for investment" and pointing out that BlackRock have been involved in this issue for years, and Starmer was simply engaging in an ongoing process. Whereas the false impression was being given that Starmer was initiating or inviting BlackRock's involvement. I hope this clarifies my position. As for dealing with undesirable immoral parties, I am not in favour in principle, but we have little choice trading with China, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. etc. That's the world we live in. At least we have stopped dealing with Russia (no doubt I'll be corrected) unlike some others: www.energyconnects.com/news/gas-lng/2024/november/france-lng-imports-from-russia-surge-to-annual-record-data-show/You have gone even further in misunderstanding my point You linked an article about Liberty Steel restructuring aided by Black Rock and Silver Point. Why else would you link it if you didn't think it was a good example. You are just being silly to say otherwise I have no problem with Black Rock or Silver Point investing in UK, I welcome it and have not questioned them but if you work with them you better pay attention. Liberty Steel is very much a different case as is its Owner Sanjeev Gupta who is not only being investigated by UK Serious Fraud Office and is facing either business or criminal litigation or both in practically every Country they are operating in. I well aware there are 5,000 jobs at stake in UK as well as specialty Steel capability (which they bought from Tata) but Starmer couldn't possibly get involved in a bailout of Liberty Steel. It is almost certain Liberty Steel will enter Liquidation, Creditors will lose out, but Black Rock and Silver Point won't because they were smart enough to secure their £350M loan against Assets I'd hazard a guess are quite easily sold and far exceeding a value of £350M Let me also burst your bubble, as you expected someone would, about UKs alleged purity in not trading in Russian LNG, you couldn't be more wrong. This Glasgow based firm owns many of the Ships that are transporting LNG from Siberia and Lloyd's are Insuring them. www.thenational.scot/news/24681571.calls-ban-glasgow-shipping-firm-exporting-russian-gas/I think we will have to agree to disagree on what my motive was to post the Liberty Steel link. I gave my reason but you seem to know better than me what my reason was. No bubble burst as I fully expected there would some circuatous way a British company would be helping Russia which I think is disgraceful. Hopefully they will lose the business by other countries not buying Russian product. |
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jack1
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Post by jack1 on Nov 24, 2024 9:48:49 GMT
A petition calling for a general election was started yesterday its now at 400k, with 75k signatures per hour. It will be difficult to ignore if it carrys on at this rate. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143 |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Nov 24, 2024 9:59:16 GMT
A petition calling for a general election was started yesterday its now at 400k, with 75k signatures per hour. It will be difficult to ignore if it carrys on at this rate. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143Hmm- so the Labour MP's are going to vote for a general election? Come back in May 2029. Edit: and the polls predict a Labour majority of 40 were an election to be held at the moment. |
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jack1
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Post by jack1 on Nov 24, 2024 10:08:07 GMT
A petition calling for a general election was started yesterday its now at 400k, with 75k signatures per hour. It will be difficult to ignore if it carrys on at this rate. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143Hmm- so the Labour MP's are going to vote for a general election? Come back in May 2029. Edit: and the polls predict a Labour majority of 40 were an election to be held at the moment. Probably not, but it might be enough to get rid of Starmer. I've never seen a petition grow so quick |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 24, 2024 10:29:22 GMT
A petition calling for a general election was started yesterday its now at 400k, with 75k signatures per hour. It will be difficult to ignore if it carrys on at this rate. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143 |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 24, 2024 10:31:54 GMT
Hmm- so the Labour MP's are going to vote for a general election? Come back in May 2029. Edit: and the polls predict a Labour majority of 40 were an election to be held at the moment. Probably not, but it might be enough to get rid of Starmer. I've never seen a petition grow so quick You must be very young In 2019 a petition to revoke Article 50 and remain in EU received more than 4M signatories within 48 Hours and over 6M in total. That went well There will be an Election in 5 years time and people can make there choice then, Starmer is going nowhere. |
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jack1
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Post by jack1 on Nov 24, 2024 11:02:31 GMT
Probably not, but it might be enough to get rid of Starmer. I've never seen a petition grow so quick You must be very young In 2019 a petition to revoke Article 50 and remain in EU received more than 4M signatories within 48 Hours and over 6M in total. That went well There will be an Election in 5 years time and people can make there choice then, Starmer is going nowhere. Its curently at 90k per hour and speeding up, therefore that puts it on par with the 4M in 48 hours. It will be interesting to see where it end up. Any small action that puts pressure on him or let's him know how much he is disliked is worth doing imo. 5 years will be too late  |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 24, 2024 11:05:46 GMT
You must be very young In 2019 a petition to revoke Article 50 and remain in EU received more than 4M signatories within 48 Hours and over 6M in total. That went well There will be an Election in 5 years time and people can make there choice then, Starmer is going nowhere. Its curently at 90k per hour and speeding up, therefore that puts it on par with the 4M in 48 hours. It will be interesting to see where it end up. Any small action that puts pressure on him or let's him know how much he is disliked is worth doing imo. 5 years will be too late Wishful thinking but we'll see. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Nov 24, 2024 11:08:07 GMT
You must be very young In 2019 a petition to revoke Article 50 and remain in EU received more than 4M signatories within 48 Hours and over 6M in total. That went well There will be an Election in 5 years time and people can make there choice then, Starmer is going nowhere. Its curently at 90k per hour and speeding up, therefore that puts it on par with the 4M in 48 hours. It will be interesting to see where it end up. Any small action that puts pressure on him or let's him know how much he is disliked is worth doing imo. 5 years will be too late He'll chuck Reeves under the bus. He won't risk his job at the WEF in 4.5 years time... |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 24, 2024 12:00:58 GMT
 Explains a lot 🙄 |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 24, 2024 12:44:31 GMT
Probably not, but it might be enough to get rid of Starmer. I've never seen a petition grow so quick You must be very young In 2019 a petition to revoke Article 50 and remain in EU received more than 4M signatories within 48 Hours and over 6M in total. That went well There will be an Election in 5 years time and people can make there choice then, Starmer is going nowhere. I agree with you.  It's also the case that 5 months later there was a GE when c. 47 million voted, mainly by getting off their backsides and going to a polling booth, and Johnson won a resounding majority of seats on a " Get Brexit done" campaign. Which really goes to show how "push button/tap 'phone" petitions and opinion polls are not worth the paper they are not written on. |
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