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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 13, 2024 16:47:38 GMT
I don't know much about him, I know he worked for Blair, but Pat McFadden comes over very well imo.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 13, 2024 18:28:48 GMT
There have been many organisations including the BMA who have accused the Conservative Government of a managed decline of NHS, citing Chomsky's quote although he never said it specifically about NHS, as a demonstration of a pathway to Privatisation There is some evidence that this is true. When the Conservative came into office in 2010 the NHS Waiting list was 2.3M by 2019 prior to Covid the waiting list had doubled to 4.6M and today it is approaching 8M a 300% increase. During the 13 years under the previous Labour Government it increased NHS Budget by 6% annually in real terms I.e adjusted for inflation. In the 14 years under the Conservative Government NHS Budget has increased by 2% again in real terms. The NHS waiting list is dangerously high not alone because of the negative effect on the health of individuals and undoubtedly some have already and will in the future die prematurely or suffer needlessly as a result. It also damages the Economy. Whether or not the Conspiracy Theory attached to the Conservative Government can be supported by their actions, it is quite another thing to attach the same Conspiracy Theory to Labour because they MIGHT do something in the future. If Streeting manages to reduce NHS waiting lists and uses spare capacity within the Private Sector to partially achieve that only an Ultra Ideologue would object. If Streeting introduces streamlining within NHS which improves delivery Ditto It is quite bizarre to base criticism on incorrect interpretation of someone's words rather than future actions www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/6/29/7-6-million-how-englands-healthcare-waiting-list-trebled-under-the-toriesNobody is attaching any conspiracy theory. I'm attaching donations from private health, words used by the health secretary and appointments made by the prime minister to the government. Donations from private health care didn't magically end up there. Appointments to private health care advocates didn't magically happen either. I'm a strong supporter and follower of Every Doctor which was setup by NHS doctors to both whistle-blow as well as campaign against NHS privatisation. The concerns I have are shared with those whom have lived experiencing working for the NHS. An Ultra ideologue don't be so ridiculous 🤣. I can point to an abundance of evidence to support my views whether that be BT, British rail, steel, water, gas etc... Only an Ultra mug would believe that privatisation is the only answer and literally prove some of the biggest thinkers in our generation correct. My criticism is based on whom Labour share company with, accept money from and promote into positions with a say over our national health service. Myself and the many critics of Wes Streeting from the NHS and various foundations and charities haven't all misinterpreted anything wrong. That's simply your arrogance getting in the way again. It's just a great shame that none of our other socialists on the oatcake wish to speak up about it. Hopefully @huddysleftfoot and prestwichpotter can come to the fray and accept they're also misinterperting everything too and wannabee is always right. I'm sure neither are Ultra ideologues and both are willing to privatise the NHS too as our only option. I wouldn’t trust West Streeting as far as I could throw him. And this spare capacity argument seems a totally spurious one too me, having extra capacity in terms of beds and theatre space is pointless if the consultant performing the operation works for the NHS but freelances for the private sector. He can’t cut himself in half or work 25 hours a day. So he takes on more private work, even opens up his own clinic (look at the increase in private eye clinics as an example) and now the NHS have another vacancy to fill so they outsource more work to the private clinic. So you know what works out cheaper? Paying junior doctors what they have lost over the years, and by recruiting and retaining staff accordingly. Anyone that thinks that the private sector will be there merely to give the NHS a lift and decrease the burden is living in cloud cuckoo as far as I’m concerned……
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 13, 2024 18:36:00 GMT
Nobody is attaching any conspiracy theory. I'm attaching donations from private health, words used by the health secretary and appointments made by the prime minister to the government. Donations from private health care didn't magically end up there. Appointments to private health care advocates didn't magically happen either. I'm a strong supporter and follower of Every Doctor which was setup by NHS doctors to both whistle-blow as well as campaign against NHS privatisation. The concerns I have are shared with those whom have lived experiencing working for the NHS. An Ultra ideologue don't be so ridiculous 🤣. I can point to an abundance of evidence to support my views whether that be BT, British rail, steel, water, gas etc... Only an Ultra mug would believe that privatisation is the only answer and literally prove some of the biggest thinkers in our generation correct. My criticism is based on whom Labour share company with, accept money from and promote into positions with a say over our national health service. Myself and the many critics of Wes Streeting from the NHS and various foundations and charities haven't all misinterpreted anything wrong. That's simply your arrogance getting in the way again. It's just a great shame that none of our other socialists on the oatcake wish to speak up about it. Hopefully @huddysleftfoot and prestwichpotter can come to the fray and accept they're also misinterperting everything too and wannabee is always right. I'm sure neither are Ultra ideologues and both are willing to privatise the NHS too as our only option. I wouldn’t trust West Streeting as far as I could throw him. And this spare capacity argument seems a totally spurious one too me, having extra capacity in terms of beds and theatre space is pointless if the consultant performing the operation works for the NHS but freelances for the private sector. He can’t cut himself in half or work 25 hours a day. So he takes on more private work, even opens up his own clinic (look at the increase in private eye clinics as an example) and now the NHS have another vacancy to fill so they outsource more work to the private clinic. So you know what works out cheaper? Paying junior doctors what they have lost over the years, and by recruiting and retaining staff accordingly. Anyone that thinks that the private sector will be there merely to give the NHS a lift and decrease the burden is living in cloud cuckoo as far as I’m concerned…… Would you do the same for all the other public sector workers? Police Fire Teachers Paramedics Carers Nurses Dentists Prison Officers Refuse They’ve probably all got a claim to being as entitled to junior doctors in relation to an increase in wages.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jul 13, 2024 18:51:17 GMT
Rumours of trouble in the camp already , Rayner who is actually a elected labour deputy , getting marginalised in planning and workers improvements , by the chancellor and business secretary respectively , violent prisoners scheduled for early release , boat migrants increasing this week , North Sea oil and gas drilling prohibited without an alternative , increasing our import dependence and vulnerability , much easier , from the opposition benches
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 13, 2024 18:58:00 GMT
I wouldn’t trust West Streeting as far as I could throw him. And this spare capacity argument seems a totally spurious one too me, having extra capacity in terms of beds and theatre space is pointless if the consultant performing the operation works for the NHS but freelances for the private sector. He can’t cut himself in half or work 25 hours a day. So he takes on more private work, even opens up his own clinic (look at the increase in private eye clinics as an example) and now the NHS have another vacancy to fill so they outsource more work to the private clinic. So you know what works out cheaper? Paying junior doctors what they have lost over the years, and by recruiting and retaining staff accordingly. Anyone that thinks that the private sector will be there merely to give the NHS a lift and decrease the burden is living in cloud cuckoo as far as I’m concerned…… Would you do the same for all the other public sector workers? Police Fire Teachers Paramedics Carers Nurses Dentists Prison Officers Refuse They’ve probably all got a claim to being as entitled to junior doctors in relation to an increase in wages. Google how much some of those sectors spend per annum on agencies and locums. People are leaving the NHS in droves and locum consultants are getting paid up to £5k a SHIFT to fill the void. A complete and utter false economy. Recruit, train, pay properly, retain……
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Post by wannabee on Jul 13, 2024 19:04:14 GMT
There have been many organisations including the BMA who have accused the Conservative Government of a managed decline of NHS, citing Chomsky's quote although he never said it specifically about NHS, as a demonstration of a pathway to Privatisation There is some evidence that this is true. When the Conservative came into office in 2010 the NHS Waiting list was 2.3M by 2019 prior to Covid the waiting list had doubled to 4.6M and today it is approaching 8M a 300% increase. During the 13 years under the previous Labour Government it increased NHS Budget by 6% annually in real terms I.e adjusted for inflation. In the 14 years under the Conservative Government NHS Budget has increased by 2% again in real terms. The NHS waiting list is dangerously high not alone because of the negative effect on the health of individuals and undoubtedly some have already and will in the future die prematurely or suffer needlessly as a result. It also damages the Economy. Whether or not the Conspiracy Theory attached to the Conservative Government can be supported by their actions, it is quite another thing to attach the same Conspiracy Theory to Labour because they MIGHT do something in the future. If Streeting manages to reduce NHS waiting lists and uses spare capacity within the Private Sector to partially achieve that only an Ultra Ideologue would object. If Streeting introduces streamlining within NHS which improves delivery Ditto It is quite bizarre to base criticism on incorrect interpretation of someone's words rather than future actions www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/6/29/7-6-million-how-englands-healthcare-waiting-list-trebled-under-the-toriesNobody is attaching any conspiracy theory. I'm attaching donations from private health, words used by the health secretary and appointments made by the prime minister to the government. Donations from private health care didn't magically end up there. Appointments to private health care advocates didn't magically happen either. I'm a strong supporter and follower of Every Doctor which was setup by NHS doctors to both whistle-blow as well as campaign against NHS privatisation. The concerns I have are shared with those whom have lived experiencing working for the NHS. An Ultra ideologue don't be so ridiculous 🤣. I can point to an abundance of evidence to support my views whether that be BT, British rail, steel, water, gas etc... Only an Ultra mug would believe that privatisation is the only answer and literally prove some of the biggest thinkers in our generation correct. My criticism is based on whom Labour share company with, accept money from and promote into positions with a say over our national health service. Myself and the many critics of Wes Streeting from the NHS and various foundations and charities haven't all misinterpreted anything wrong. That's simply your arrogance getting in the way again. It's just a great shame that none of our other socialists on the oatcake wish to speak up about it. Hopefully @huddysleftfoot and prestwichpotter can come to the fray and accept they're also misinterperting everything too and wannabee is always right. I'm sure neither are Ultra ideologues and both are willing to privatise the NHS too as our only option. You see you're doing it again, misinterpreting what I wrote. I said if a NHS Patient on a waiting list could receive earlier Treatment by using a Private Medical Facility which is paid for by the NHS only an Ultra Ideologue would object, if that represents you fair enough. It doesn't need to be said it benefits the Patient and the next in line as the waiting list is reduced. Your other predilection is for conflation which you are doing here by introducing Nationalised Utilities, my views on that are well documented on here and I have no intention to go off on a tangent. The third issue is putting words in my mouth. I have never said nor do I support the Privatisation of the NHS. I did say that an argument could be made that under the Conservative Administration that may have been their intent using the classically outlined Chomsky Theory of Managed Decline. I gave specific examples of how that argument could be supported. You're quite entitled to be vigilant about what Labour may do in Administering the NHS but you come across as hysterical based on what in my view you have interpreted Labour's plan to resurrect what is universally acknowledged to be a broken Public Service It really matters not a jot whether you or I are correct because Labour are only one week into its Governance so there is very little to critique. The main areas of substance which have occurred in that time is that Streeting has met with the BMA Junior Doctors Representatives who reported a positive meeting with more talks this week. The other areas of angst are with regard to some of the Advisors Labour has appointed namely Milburn, Smith and Darzi. I have shared some misgivings about the former, less so about the latter. But at the risk of repeating myself the Proof of the Pudding will be in the Eating, currently there is no Pie to look at never mind eat. In your last paragraph you finish with a flouncy finish in a sarcastic claim that I believe I'm always correct when I have consistently said including in this post it's my opinion and then you repeat the egregious claim that I wish to see the NHS Privatised Have a Chill Pill
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 13, 2024 19:05:51 GMT
Would you do the same for all the other public sector workers? Police Fire Teachers Paramedics Carers Nurses Dentists Prison Officers Refuse They’ve probably all got a claim to being as entitled to junior doctors in relation to an increase in wages. Google how much some of those sectors spend per annum on agencies and locums. People are leaving the NHS in droves and locum consultants are getting paid up to £5k a SHIFT to fill the void. A complete and utter false economy. Recruit, train, pay properly, retain…… In the case of the top 3 they too have trouble retaining I’m pretty sure as do social services from my experiences of working with all indirectly. We’re heading for a situation where people won’t want to do key worker roles anymore. Somethings got to give.
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Post by gawa on Jul 13, 2024 19:16:40 GMT
Google how much some of those sectors spend per annum on agencies and locums. People are leaving the NHS in droves and locum consultants are getting paid up to £5k a SHIFT to fill the void. A complete and utter false economy. Recruit, train, pay properly, retain…… In the case of the top 3 they too have trouble retaining I’m pretty sure as do social services from my experiences of working with all indirectly. We’re heading for a situation where people won’t want to do key worker roles anymore. Somethings got to give. It does. And that's taxing the rich. Not letting them buy up more essential services to run for PROFIT.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 13, 2024 19:36:56 GMT
Nobody is attaching any conspiracy theory. I'm attaching donations from private health, words used by the health secretary and appointments made by the prime minister to the government. Donations from private health care didn't magically end up there. Appointments to private health care advocates didn't magically happen either. I'm a strong supporter and follower of Every Doctor which was setup by NHS doctors to both whistle-blow as well as campaign against NHS privatisation. The concerns I have are shared with those whom have lived experiencing working for the NHS. An Ultra ideologue don't be so ridiculous 🤣. I can point to an abundance of evidence to support my views whether that be BT, British rail, steel, water, gas etc... Only an Ultra mug would believe that privatisation is the only answer and literally prove some of the biggest thinkers in our generation correct. My criticism is based on whom Labour share company with, accept money from and promote into positions with a say over our national health service. Myself and the many critics of Wes Streeting from the NHS and various foundations and charities haven't all misinterpreted anything wrong. That's simply your arrogance getting in the way again. It's just a great shame that none of our other socialists on the oatcake wish to speak up about it. Hopefully @huddysleftfoot and prestwichpotter can come to the fray and accept they're also misinterperting everything too and wannabee is always right. I'm sure neither are Ultra ideologues and both are willing to privatise the NHS too as our only option. I wouldn’t trust West Streeting as far as I could throw him. And this spare capacity argument seems a totally spurious one too me, having extra capacity in terms of beds and theatre space is pointless if the consultant performing the operation works for the NHS but freelances for the private sector. He can’t cut himself in half or work 25 hours a day. So he takes on more private work, even opens up his own clinic (look at the increase in private eye clinics as an example) and now the NHS have another vacancy to fill so they outsource more work to the private clinic. So you know what works out cheaper? Paying junior doctors what they have lost over the years, and by recruiting and retaining staff accordingly. Anyone that thinks that the private sector will be there merely to give the NHS a lift and decrease the burden is living in cloud cuckoo as far as I’m concerned…… The discussion Gawa an I have been having is a simple one. He believes Labour intends to increase Privatisation in NHS, I don't. I don't believe their is much spare capacity in the Private Medical System but I'm not ideologically opposed to using it to treat some NHS Patients I totally agree Labour's Manifesto lacks ambition you could say as the Election Result unfolded it could have been more ambitious. It wouldn't have altered the Economic Health of the Country in any way. There were Political choices made in the abstract in preparing the Manifesto, there will be Political choices made in Reality in the October Budget Statement. That Budget will be the Litmus Test of direction of Travel. The easy bit will be increasing Capital Spending for Infrastructure and Equipment to replace and upgrade. A choice will be made to increase Taxes, some have already been signalled CGT, Inheritance Tax etc a harder choice will be whether to run a Budget Deficit and importantly how the available cash is dispersed We live in international times
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ian57
Youth Player
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Post by ian57 on Jul 13, 2024 19:44:18 GMT
This government has no intention of taxing the rich and wealthy. They will rinse the working man’s savings and pension and then target the disabled and pensioners. People will soon realise how much labour despise the working class of this country.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 13, 2024 19:44:23 GMT
I wouldn’t trust West Streeting as far as I could throw him. And this spare capacity argument seems a totally spurious one too me, having extra capacity in terms of beds and theatre space is pointless if the consultant performing the operation works for the NHS but freelances for the private sector. He can’t cut himself in half or work 25 hours a day. So he takes on more private work, even opens up his own clinic (look at the increase in private eye clinics as an example) and now the NHS have another vacancy to fill so they outsource more work to the private clinic. So you know what works out cheaper? Paying junior doctors what they have lost over the years, and by recruiting and retaining staff accordingly. Anyone that thinks that the private sector will be there merely to give the NHS a lift and decrease the burden is living in cloud cuckoo as far as I’m concerned…… The discussion Gawa an I have been having is a simple one. He believes Labour intends to increase Privatisation in NHS, I don't. I don't believe their is much spare capacity in the Private Medical System but I'm not ideologically opposed to using it to treat some NHS Patients I totally agree Labour's Manifesto lacks ambition you could say as the Election Result unfolded it could have been more ambitious. It wouldn't have altered the Economic Health of the Country in any way. There were Political choices made in the abstract in preparing the Manifesto, there will be Political choices made in Reality in the October Budget Statement. That Budget will be the Litmus Test of direction of Travel. The easy bit will be increasing Capital Spending for Infrastructure and Equipment to replace and upgrade. A choice will be made to increase Taxes, some have already been signalled CGT, Inheritance Tax etc a harder choice will be whether to run a Budget Deficit and importantly how the available cash is dispersed We live in international times I guess I’m saying that using the private sector’s spare capacity will lead to privatisation whether by accident or design. Just ask ophthalmologists what the outsourcing of cataracts have done to their departments for example, it’s a slippery slope…….
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 13, 2024 21:30:45 GMT
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jul 13, 2024 21:40:15 GMT
This government has no intention of taxing the rich and wealthy. They will rinse the working man’s savings and pension and then target the disabled and pensioners. People will soon realise how much labour despise the working class of this country. I suspect the budget treatment of CGT , inheritance tax and been LTA may dispute that logic .
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Post by wannabee on Jul 13, 2024 23:47:57 GMT
The discussion Gawa an I have been having is a simple one. He believes Labour intends to increase Privatisation in NHS, I don't. I don't believe their is much spare capacity in the Private Medical System but I'm not ideologically opposed to using it to treat some NHS Patients I totally agree Labour's Manifesto lacks ambition you could say as the Election Result unfolded it could have been more ambitious. It wouldn't have altered the Economic Health of the Country in any way. There were Political choices made in the abstract in preparing the Manifesto, there will be Political choices made in Reality in the October Budget Statement. That Budget will be the Litmus Test of direction of Travel. The easy bit will be increasing Capital Spending for Infrastructure and Equipment to replace and upgrade. A choice will be made to increase Taxes, some have already been signalled CGT, Inheritance Tax etc a harder choice will be whether to run a Budget Deficit and importantly how the available cash is dispersed We live in international times I guess I’m saying that using the private sector’s spare capacity will lead to privatisation whether by accident or design. Just ask ophthalmologists what the outsourcing of cataracts have done to their departments for example, it’s a slippery slope……. "Should have gone to Specsavers" Full disclosure, which I've made before several times, I have Private Medical Insurance which I require for Visa purposes for some places I travel to. Fortunately I'm relatively healthy so other than routine consultations I don't tend to bother the quacks. If I were to develop a serious illness my pathway to treatment would be GP referral to a Consultant which would be easy peasy and if a serious illness was confirmed I would be a Priority for NHS Treatment having received a diagnosis. If an NHS Patient could get a GP appointment he/she would likewise be referred to a Consultant but would wait a considerably longer time for the appointment so delaying the commencement of treatment This is inherently unfair and Fucked Up. If I developed Cataracts I would be referred for Surgery in about 4/8 weeks to have routine Surgery in a Private Clinic and when completed be shown to a recovery area for a Cup of Tea and a Biscuit. An NHS Patient's Standard time for Cataract Surgery is 18 weeks but because of the pressure generally on NHS and particularly for what is described as Elective Surgery Surgery if the Hospital becomes over capacitated Elective Surgeries are frequently cancelled and rescheduled. This is also unfair and Fucked Up. I'm not sure there is a perfect Health Care System in the World but I am quite sure the Utopian Universal Health Care System the NHS is supposed to deliver is not working Sacrilegious I know but a division of Labour and Resource to me seems perfectly feasible I don't care if an Elective Surgery Medical Facility which caters to "Head and shoulders knees and toes" is Private or Public but is seperate and not crowding out Emergency Care and potentially other life threatening, limiting or terminating care. The whole basis of Medical Care is Triage. And don't get me started on Mental or Social Care or god forbid Prevention through early intervention or Education There have been some very worthwhile contributions on this thread, crowed out by bollocks between myself and Gawa Nye Bevan was a visionary but in many respects his vision has become a monster that is destined to devour itself without reorganisation
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2024 0:00:35 GMT
I guess I’m saying that using the private sector’s spare capacity will lead to privatisation whether by accident or design. Just ask ophthalmologists what the outsourcing of cataracts have done to their departments for example, it’s a slippery slope……. "Should have gone to Specsavers" Full disclosure, which I've made before several times, I have Private Medical Insurance which I require for Visa purposes for some places I travel to. Fortunately I'm relatively healthy so other than routine consultations I don't tend to bother the quacks. If I were to develop a serious illness my pathway to treatment would be GP referral to a Consultant which would be easy peasy and if a serious illness was confirmed I would be a Priority for NHS Treatment having received a diagnosis. If an NHS Patient could get a GP appointment he/she would likewise be referred to a Consultant but would wait a considerably longer time for the appointment so delaying the commencement of treatment This is inherently unfair and Fucked Up. If I developed Cataracts I would be referred for Surgery in about 4/8 weeks to have routine Surgery in a Private Clinic and when completed be shown to a recovery area for a Cup of Tea and a Biscuit. An NHS Patient's Standard time for Cataract Surgery is 18 weeks but because of the pressure generally on NHS and particularly for what is described as Elective Surgery Surgery if the Hospital becomes over capacitated Elective Surgeries are frequently cancelled and rescheduled. This is also unfair and Fucked Up. I'm not sure there is a perfect Health Care System in the World but I am quite sure the Utopian Universal Health Care System the NHS is supposed to deliver is not working Sacrilegious I know but a division of Labour and Resource to me seems perfectly feasible I don't care if an Elective Surgery Medical Facility which caters to "Head and shoulders knees and toes" is Private or Public but is seperate and not crowding out Emergency Care and potentially other life threatening, limiting or terminating care. The whole basis of Medical Care is Triage. And don't get me started on Mental or Social Care or god forbid Prevention through early intervention or Education There have been some very worthwhile contributions on this thread, crowed out by bollocks between myself and Gawa Nye Bevan was a visionary but in many respects his vision has become a monster that is destined to devour itself without reorganisation Personally, I think that the mix of personal and private healthcare that the Dutch have is pretty excellent, though I only lived there for about a year and didn’t have any major or chronic conditions to consider. This is an overview: www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/netherlandsHowever, given the ineptitude of modern politicians, who has any faith that the NHS will be remodeled to make something better and not worse?
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Post by wannabee on Jul 14, 2024 0:46:56 GMT
You are quoting an updated 16 year old Article published by the owners of the Daily Fail 5 months before the lead up to the General Election as credible 😂 For Goodness sake Mr Coke why not just unveil your Blue Rosette Considering Tuss/Kwarteng Budget has substantially reduced the size of UK Pension Funds is it still feasible? - conservatively small c estimated to be a loss of £425Bn in Pension Funds Assets www.cityam.com/liz-truss-mini-budget-helped-knock-425bn-off-pension-funds-assets-in-2022/Additionally if as you have previously claimed that inward FDI to UK is as record levels why would it be needed - unfortunately it is an uncomfortable fact FDI is in steep decline particularly since Brexit www.ft.com/content/e33f9e7f-7ed2-4ac9-90bc-6c8843e6d078Surely it is unnecessary given the opportunities Brexit has opened up for growth " Leaving the European Union was unlike any event in modern British history. Institutional investors couldn't imagine a majority of Britons voting against their own interest. When they did, the shock was immediate. The pound plummeted a record 8.05% in minutes to a 31-year-low against the dollar. The toll of the June 23, 2016, referendum was more than double any of the eight worst days since 1981, and the almost 13% depreciation in less than a week remains unequaled as a UK foreign-exchange debacle"
"Sterling's sudden collapse and failure to recover proved to be the signal that Britain's best days are fleeting. For most of this century, the UK was the biggest beneficiary among the 27 countries in the EU. Measured by gross domestic product, GDP per capita growth, unemployment and superior debt, equity and currency valuations, Britain was the perennial leader. All of these superlatives ended with “Brexit” almost eight years ago. The EU since then outperforms the UK, whose listless economy is now little more than an also-ran"www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-03-19/brexit-s-lasting-economic-and-financial-damage-looks-inescapable
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 14, 2024 6:50:07 GMT
Nobody is attaching any conspiracy theory. I'm attaching donations from private health, words used by the health secretary and appointments made by the prime minister to the government. Donations from private health care didn't magically end up there. Appointments to private health care advocates didn't magically happen either. I'm a strong supporter and follower of Every Doctor which was setup by NHS doctors to both whistle-blow as well as campaign against NHS privatisation. The concerns I have are shared with those whom have lived experiencing working for the NHS. An Ultra ideologue don't be so ridiculous 🤣. I can point to an abundance of evidence to support my views whether that be BT, British rail, steel, water, gas etc... Only an Ultra mug would believe that privatisation is the only answer and literally prove some of the biggest thinkers in our generation correct. My criticism is based on whom Labour share company with, accept money from and promote into positions with a say over our national health service. Myself and the many critics of Wes Streeting from the NHS and various foundations and charities haven't all misinterpreted anything wrong. That's simply your arrogance getting in the way again. It's just a great shame that none of our other socialists on the oatcake wish to speak up about it. Hopefully @huddysleftfoot and prestwichpotter can come to the fray and accept they're also misinterperting everything too and wannabee is always right. I'm sure neither are Ultra ideologues and both are willing to privatise the NHS too as our only option. You see you're doing it again, misinterpreting what I wrote. I said if a NHS Patient on a waiting list could receive earlier Treatment by using a Private Medical Facility which is paid for by the NHS only an Ultra Ideologue would object, if that represents you fair enough. It doesn't need to be said it benefits the Patient and the next in line as the waiting list is reduced. Your other predilection is for conflation which you are doing here by introducing Nationalised Utilities, my views on that are well documented on here and I have no intention to go off on a tangent. The third issue is putting words in my mouth. I have never said nor do I support the Privatisation of the NHS. I did say that an argument could be made that under the Conservative Administration that may have been their intent using the classically outlined Chomsky Theory of Managed Decline. I gave specific examples of how that argument could be supported. You're quite entitled to be vigilant about what Labour may do in Administering the NHS but you come across as hysterical based on what in my view you have interpreted Labour's plan to resurrect what is universally acknowledged to be a broken Public Service It really matters not a jot whether you or I are correct because Labour are only one week into its Governance so there is very little to critique. The main areas of substance which have occurred in that time is that Streeting has met with the BMA Junior Doctors Representatives who reported a positive meeting with more talks this week. The other areas of angst are with regard to some of the Advisors Labour has appointed namely Milburn, Smith and Darzi. I have shared some misgivings about the former, less so about the latter. But at the risk of repeating myself the Proof of the Pudding will be in the Eating, currently there is no Pie to look at never mind eat. In your last paragraph you finish with a flouncy finish in a sarcastic claim that I believe I'm always correct when I have consistently said including in this post it's my opinion and then you repeat the egregious claim that I wish to see the NHS Privatised Have a Chill Pill Will the pie be vegan?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 14, 2024 7:38:14 GMT
"Should have gone to Specsavers" Full disclosure, which I've made before several times, I have Private Medical Insurance which I require for Visa purposes for some places I travel to. Fortunately I'm relatively healthy so other than routine consultations I don't tend to bother the quacks. If I were to develop a serious illness my pathway to treatment would be GP referral to a Consultant which would be easy peasy and if a serious illness was confirmed I would be a Priority for NHS Treatment having received a diagnosis. If an NHS Patient could get a GP appointment he/she would likewise be referred to a Consultant but would wait a considerably longer time for the appointment so delaying the commencement of treatment This is inherently unfair and Fucked Up. If I developed Cataracts I would be referred for Surgery in about 4/8 weeks to have routine Surgery in a Private Clinic and when completed be shown to a recovery area for a Cup of Tea and a Biscuit. An NHS Patient's Standard time for Cataract Surgery is 18 weeks but because of the pressure generally on NHS and particularly for what is described as Elective Surgery Surgery if the Hospital becomes over capacitated Elective Surgeries are frequently cancelled and rescheduled. This is also unfair and Fucked Up. I'm not sure there is a perfect Health Care System in the World but I am quite sure the Utopian Universal Health Care System the NHS is supposed to deliver is not working Sacrilegious I know but a division of Labour and Resource to me seems perfectly feasible I don't care if an Elective Surgery Medical Facility which caters to "Head and shoulders knees and toes" is Private or Public but is seperate and not crowding out Emergency Care and potentially other life threatening, limiting or terminating care. The whole basis of Medical Care is Triage. And don't get me started on Mental or Social Care or god forbid Prevention through early intervention or Education There have been some very worthwhile contributions on this thread, crowed out by bollocks between myself and Gawa Nye Bevan was a visionary but in many respects his vision has become a monster that is destined to devour itself without reorganisation Personally, I think that the mix of personal and private healthcare that the Dutch have is pretty excellent, though I only lived there for about a year and didn’t have any major or chronic conditions to consider. This is an overview: www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/netherlandsHowever, given the ineptitude of modern politicians, who has any faith that the NHS will be remodeled to make something better and not worse? Keep an eye on models such as the Dutch one, the profits that the private health providers make are being squeezed, the danger is that cheaper less effective treatments may be favoured, less people get referred etc. The Dutch like us are suffering from high absenteeism, unfilled vacancies and increased costs of agency labour. Of course someone like dutchstokie might correct me, my original point is more around the public v private model as a whole rather than Netherlands, however I have read that only private hospitals were profitable last year (still down year on year), and that private mental health, disability and elderly care providers all lost money……
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2024 8:59:00 GMT
Personally, I think that the mix of personal and private healthcare that the Dutch have is pretty excellent, though I only lived there for about a year and didn’t have any major or chronic conditions to consider. This is an overview: www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/netherlandsHowever, given the ineptitude of modern politicians, who has any faith that the NHS will be remodeled to make something better and not worse? Keep an eye on models such as the Dutch one, the profits that the private health providers make are being squeezed, the danger is that cheaper less effective treatments may be favoured, less people get referred etc. The Dutch like us are suffering from high absenteeism, unfilled vacancies and increased costs of agency labour. Of course someone like dutchstokie might correct me, my original point is more around the public v private model as a whole rather than Netherlands, however I have read that only private hospitals were profitable last year (still down year on year), and that private mental health, disability and elderly care providers all lost money…… Unsurprising. In the US, most of the actual money making services for hospitals are not your day-to-day doctor seen in the hospital. General hospitalists lose hospitals a tonne of money but are essential and so well paid. I imagine that mental health is the same unless the billing to insurance is so drastically different. Money is made from operations and procedures and so GI docs, surgeons, etc are the real money making employees in hospitals. No matter what system you run, there will be always be people that get squeezed.
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 14, 2024 9:27:58 GMT
You are quoting an updated 16 year old Article published by the owners of the Daily Fail 5 months before the lead up to the General Election as credible 😂 For Goodness sake Mr Coke why not just unveil your Blue Rosette Considering Tuss/Kwarteng Budget has substantially reduced the size of UK Pension Funds is it still feasible? - conservatively small c estimated to be a loss of £425Bn in Pension Funds Assets www.cityam.com/liz-truss-mini-budget-helped-knock-425bn-off-pension-funds-assets-in-2022/Additionally if as you have previously claimed that inward FDI to UK is as record levels why would it be needed - unfortunately it is an uncomfortable fact FDI is in steep decline particularly since Brexit www.ft.com/content/e33f9e7f-7ed2-4ac9-90bc-6c8843e6d078Surely it is unnecessary given the opportunities Brexit has opened up for growth " Leaving the European Union was unlike any event in modern British history. Institutional investors couldn't imagine a majority of Britons voting against their own interest. When they did, the shock was immediate. The pound plummeted a record 8.05% in minutes to a 31-year-low against the dollar. The toll of the June 23, 2016, referendum was more than double any of the eight worst days since 1981, and the almost 13% depreciation in less than a week remains unequaled as a UK foreign-exchange debacle"
"Sterling's sudden collapse and failure to recover proved to be the signal that Britain's best days are fleeting. For most of this century, the UK was the biggest beneficiary among the 27 countries in the EU. Measured by gross domestic product, GDP per capita growth, unemployment and superior debt, equity and currency valuations, Britain was the perennial leader. All of these superlatives ended with “Brexit” almost eight years ago. The EU since then outperforms the UK, whose listless economy is now little more than an also-ran"www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-03-19/brexit-s-lasting-economic-and-financial-damage-looks-inescapable My apologies, I should have used a better linked source. Maybe this one stating UK pension funds are at a record level will support my statement that UK pension funds are massive: www.pensionsage.com/pa/UK-db-funding-levels-hit-new-record-high.php
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Post by wannabee on Jul 14, 2024 10:29:13 GMT
Andrew Marr seems to answer the question some were asking
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Post by wannabee on Jul 14, 2024 10:31:29 GMT
In the interest of balance
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Post by gawa on Jul 15, 2024 12:46:41 GMT
Well said by Grace
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Post by wannabee on Jul 15, 2024 18:39:02 GMT
Some have questioned Starmers external Appointments to Government The appointment of Jewish Human Rights Lawyer Richard Hermer who has a long record of criticism of Israel’s Human Rights Record as Attorney General has somehow escaped their attention Fortunately is hasn't escaped the attention of the Palestinian News Network qudsnen.co/?p=44919
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 15, 2024 19:20:46 GMT
Some have questioned Starmers external Appointments to Government The appointment of Jewish Human Rights Lawyer Richard Hermer who has a long record of criticism of Israel’s Human Rights Record as Attorney General has somehow escaped their attention Fortunately is hasn't escaped the attention of the Palestinian News Network qudsnen.co/?p=44919Odd that they would u-turn here then. Desperately dissapointing if true ...
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Post by wannabee on Jul 15, 2024 20:06:24 GMT
Some have questioned Starmers external Appointments to Government The appointment of Jewish Human Rights Lawyer Richard Hermer who has a long record of criticism of Israel’s Human Rights Record as Attorney General has somehow escaped their attention Fortunately is hasn't escaped the attention of the Palestinian News Network qudsnen.co/?p=44919Odd that they would u-turn here then. Desperately dissapointing if true ... On the face of it, it does seem curious, we'll just have to wait and see how events unfold
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 15, 2024 20:09:51 GMT
Some have questioned Starmers external Appointments to Government The appointment of Jewish Human Rights Lawyer Richard Hermer who has a long record of criticism of Israel’s Human Rights Record as Attorney General has somehow escaped their attention Fortunately is hasn't escaped the attention of the Palestinian News Network qudsnen.co/?p=44919Odd that they would u-turn here then. Desperately dissapointing if true ... I wonder what the correct legal position actually is. i guess we will find out. Is there anything about the reasons behind this U turn? As a lawyer, i just cannot see Starmer U turning on his original position unless he is on strong legal ground.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 15, 2024 20:21:39 GMT
Odd that they would u-turn here then. Desperately dissapointing if true ... I wonder what the correct legal position actually is. i guess we will find out. Is there anything about the reasons behind this U turn? As a lawyer, i just cannot see Starmer U turning on his original position unless he is on strong legal ground. Could be he’s a duplicitous tosser And maybe he’s now showing his true position now he doesn’t need people’s votes Anyone who cannot see the Israeli prime minister is a genocidal wanker is either complicit Or been bought and paid for
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 15, 2024 20:57:42 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 15, 2024 22:11:56 GMT
I wonder what the correct legal position actually is. i guess we will find out. Is there anything about the reasons behind this U turn? As a lawyer, i just cannot see Starmer U turning on his original position unless he is on strong legal ground. Could be he’s a duplicitous tosser And maybe he’s now showing his true position now he doesn’t need people’s votes Anyone who cannot see the Israeli prime minister is a genocidal wanker is either complicit Or been bought and paid for To be clear, the tories filed the original government position, and kept it secret because of the election. It only came out when the ICC released papers relating to the case. Labour, once elected, said they were going to withdraw the government’s application. Now it seems they have changed position, presumably after now having taken proper advice. It is all quite odd. The question is about the jurisdiction of the ICC and how it links to the Oslo Accords. It isn’t about whether or not Netanyahu is a genocidal wanker.
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