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Post by dutchstokie on Feb 14, 2024 12:10:54 GMT
Don’t joke I wouldn’t put it past him……. whilst taking the knee......'kin idiot
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 14, 2024 12:35:22 GMT
Stilk as relevant now as he ever was.
Quite brilliant ...
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2024 12:44:30 GMT
I get the impression that both with Corbyn and now Starmer, where a labour leader stands on Israel and Palestine is many times more important to most people than their policies for the UK. Hamas won’t pay attention to British labour. Neither will Netenyahu.
People need to start working on their priorities and focus on what has an impact on theirs and their family’s daily life, rather than an opinion on an issue which has no impact on anything whatsoever.
The focus on something completely outside of british labour’s control is a gift to the tories.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 14, 2024 12:46:27 GMT
I get the impression that both with Corbyn and now Starmer, where a labour leader stands on Israel and Palestine is many times more important to most people than their policies for the UK. Hamas won’t pay attention to British labour. Neither will Netenyahu. People need to start working on their priorities and focus on what has an impact on theirs and their family’s daily life, rather than an opinion on an issue which has no impact on anything whatsoever. The focus on something completely outside of british labour’s control is a gift to the tories. So we're just going to bin UK foreign policy completely then?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 14, 2024 12:52:35 GMT
I get the impression that both with Corbyn and now Starmer, where a labour leader stands on Israel and Palestine is many times more important to most people than their policies for the UK. Hamas won’t pay attention to British labour. Neither will Netenyahu. People need to start working on their priorities and focus on what has an impact on theirs and their family’s daily life, rather than an opinion on an issue which has no impact on anything whatsoever. The focus on something completely outside of british labour’s control is a gift to the tories. Those in the PLP who decided it was better to bring down the Labour leader in 2016/17 than have a potential Labour government were a big part of the so-called antisemitism crisis and now the chickens are well and truly coming home to roost. They thought it would end with the disposal of all those on the left, that seemingly isn't the case and they can't move on. They have created their own problem, if they suffer electorally because of it, it's on them. Why does Israel have so much influence on the party is the pertinent question, lobbyists donating large sums of money to MP's, the Labour Friends of Israel mouthpieces of the Israeli government, ex-Labour MP's such as Ian Austin, John Mann and John Woodcock given peerages for services to the Tory Party, it's insane?
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Post by noustie on Feb 14, 2024 12:54:29 GMT
Genuinely I've only heard the news via the riddle wrapped within an enigma and pin spinning of the BBC, and other commercial channels news output, on a long drive yesterday where 'anti-Semitic' and 'anti-Israel' seemed interchangeable. Is the crux of it a Labour candidate said anyone going to fight for the Israel army in Gaza should face trial on return to the UK and the other Labour person hung around and listened?
Are Labour seriously suggesting therefore it would have been better if they'd come out and said folk going to Israel to fight in Gaza shouldn't be arrested or alternatively just put their fingers in their ears pretending what's happening is orate?
Would the same issues have arose if they'd said anyone going to fight for the Gazan side should be arrested - would there fuck!
It's absolutely bat-shit mental.
Swear they said too that Starmer only changed his position once there was threats from Israeli pressure groups to release more damaging information - strong leadership my arse and how the fuck is it orate for Israel to have the leader of the opposition by the bollocks and nobodies going 'Hold on a min!'
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 14, 2024 12:56:44 GMT
Genuinely I've only heard the news via the riddle wrapped within an enigma and pin spinning of the BBC, and other commercial channels news output, on a long drive yesterday where 'anti-Semitic' and 'anti-Israel' seemed interchangeable. Is the crux of it a Labour candidate said anyone going to fight for the Israel army in Gaza should face trial on return to the UK and the other Labour person hung around and listened? Are Labour seriously suggesting therefore it would have been better if they'd come out and said folk going to Israel to fight in Gaza shouldn't be arrested or alternatively just put their fingers in their ears pretending what's happening is orate? Would the same issues have arose if they'd said anyone going to fight for the Gazan side should be arrested - would there fuck! It's absolutely bat-shit mental. Swear they said too that Starmer only changed his position once there was threats from Israeli pressure groups to release more damaging information - strong leadership my arse and how the fuck is it orate for Israel to have the leader of the opposition by the bollocks and nobodies going 'Hold on a min!' In a nutshell, exactly.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2024 12:57:08 GMT
I get the impression that both with Corbyn and now Starmer, where a labour leader stands on Israel and Palestine is many times more important to most people than their policies for the UK. Hamas won’t pay attention to British labour. Neither will Netenyahu. People need to start working on their priorities and focus on what has an impact on theirs and their family’s daily life, rather than an opinion on an issue which has no impact on anything whatsoever. The focus on something completely outside of british labour’s control is a gift to the tories. So we're just going to bin UK foreign policy completely then? Who said that? I can think of many more consequential foreign policy issues that are more important to our country than Israel Palestine: 1. Ukraine/Russia 2. Nato membership and commitments 3. Relations with our closest neighbours (mainly in the EU, but also the US and impact of a potential Trump Presidency) 4. Brexit arrangements 5. Mass migration 6. International trading arrangements 7. Global influence and involvement in organisations such as G7, G20, UN etc 8. Overseas aid 9. China and their growing global influence 10. Climate change and diplomacy required to try and persuade others to make and meet commitments To my mind, the above are far more significant foreign policy issues.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2024 12:58:35 GMT
I get the impression that both with Corbyn and now Starmer, where a labour leader stands on Israel and Palestine is many times more important to most people than their policies for the UK. Hamas won’t pay attention to British labour. Neither will Netenyahu. People need to start working on their priorities and focus on what has an impact on theirs and their family’s daily life, rather than an opinion on an issue which has no impact on anything whatsoever. The focus on something completely outside of british labour’s control is a gift to the tories. Those in the PLP who decided it was better to bring down the Labour leader in 2016/17 than have a potential Labour government were a big part of the so-called antisemitism crisis and now the chickens are well and truly coming home to roost. They thought it would end with the disposal of all those on the left, that seemingly isn't the case and they can't move on. They have created their own problem, if they suffer electorally because of it, it's on them. Why does Israel have so much influence on the party is the pertinent question, lobbyists donating large sums of money to MP's, the Labour Friends of Israel mouthpieces of the Israeli government, ex-Labour MP's such as Ian Austin, John Mann and John Woodcock given peerages for services to the Tory Party, it's insane? I agree. It was wrong for Corbyn and wrong now. There are more important issues to focus on. I have always said Labour’s biggest threat to winning the election is the Labour Party.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 14, 2024 12:59:14 GMT
I get the impression that both with Corbyn and now Starmer, where a labour leader stands on Israel and Palestine is many times more important to most people than their policies for the UK. Hamas won’t pay attention to British labour. Neither will Netenyahu. People need to start working on their priorities and focus on what has an impact on theirs and their family’s daily life, rather than an opinion on an issue which has no impact on anything whatsoever. The focus on something completely outside of british labour’s control is a gift to the tories. I think the press are saying that Oggy...I would not have thought most people in the UK are too bothered about Israel/Hamas in comparison to their own personal lot in life. The posters on the Oatcake don't represent public opinion.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2024 13:02:31 GMT
I get the impression that both with Corbyn and now Starmer, where a labour leader stands on Israel and Palestine is many times more important to most people than their policies for the UK. Hamas won’t pay attention to British labour. Neither will Netenyahu. People need to start working on their priorities and focus on what has an impact on theirs and their family’s daily life, rather than an opinion on an issue which has no impact on anything whatsoever. The focus on something completely outside of british labour’s control is a gift to the tories. I think the press are saying that Oggy...I would not have thought most people in the UK are too bothered about Israel/Hamas in comparison to their own personal lot in life. The posters on the Oatcake don't represent public opinion. You are probably right. It frustrates me. The right wing press, the left wing press, they are all obsessed with a sniff of anti semitism in the Labour Party, but don’t care when Boris Johnson calls black women picanninies with watermelon smiles and describes muslim women as letterboxes.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 14, 2024 13:06:41 GMT
Stilk as relevant now as he ever was. Quite brilliant ... Missed every day...such a loss.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 14, 2024 13:14:38 GMT
So we're just going to bin UK foreign policy completely then? Who said that? I can think of many more consequential foreign policy issues that are more important to our country than Israel Palestine: 1. Ukraine/Russia 2. Nato membership and commitments 3. Relations with our closest neighbours (mainly in the EU, but also the US and impact of a potential Trump Presidency) 4. Brexit arrangements 5. Mass migration 6. International trading arrangements 7. Global influence and involvement in organisations such as G7, G20, UN etc 8. Overseas aid 9. China and their growing global influence 10. Climate change and diplomacy required to try and persuade others to make and meet commitments To my mind, the above are far more significant foreign policy issues. That's very different from your original post, where you said that people needed to focus on policies for the UK. But okay, expanding your point to include UK foreign policy ... Just parking the morality of the UK sending billions in arms and cash to a country to commit genocide for a moment (I'm amazed at how quickly you're prepared to look the other way on this), the World Bank has already published a report suggesting that, the conflict could very easily produce a disastrous economic shock to the entire world economy. Saudi Arabia has already warned Israel that if they go into Rafah, then they should expect grave consequences. In 1973 the Gulf states oil embargo in retaliation for the US supplying arms to Israel, resulted in the price of oil QUADRUPLING, you seriously don't believe that a similar consequence of the conflict now "won't have any impact on anything whatsoever" (your words)? And of course there is the real tangible threat of the conflict escalating, which would have a catastrophic effect on so many levels, if it were allowed to do so.
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Post by andystokey on Feb 14, 2024 13:22:59 GMT
I will continue to be critical of Zionism as was Gerald Kaufmann and if any party is not tolerant of that view then they will not get my vote.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 14, 2024 13:27:15 GMT
I get the impression that both with Corbyn and now Starmer, where a labour leader stands on Israel and Palestine is many times more important to most people than their policies for the UK. Hamas won’t pay attention to British labour. Neither will Netenyahu. People need to start working on their priorities and focus on what has an impact on theirs and their family’s daily life, rather than an opinion on an issue which has no impact on anything whatsoever. The focus on something completely outside of british labour’s control is a gift to the tories. I think the press are saying that Oggy...I would not have thought most people in the UK are too bothered about Israel/Hamas in comparison to their own personal lot in life. The posters on the Oatcake don't represent public opinion. The board may not represent society as a whole but don't underestimate people's reaction ethnic cleansing and genocide when the media can no longer keep it out of the public domain. Iraq was the same, people didn't say "but what about domestic issues?" they got out and demonstrated. It's exactly because our current political representatives should focus more on domestic issues that ridiculous almost cult like groups such as Labour/Conservative Friends of Israel should be disbanded........
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2024 13:57:29 GMT
Who said that? I can think of many more consequential foreign policy issues that are more important to our country than Israel Palestine: 1. Ukraine/Russia 2. Nato membership and commitments 3. Relations with our closest neighbours (mainly in the EU, but also the US and impact of a potential Trump Presidency) 4. Brexit arrangements 5. Mass migration 6. International trading arrangements 7. Global influence and involvement in organisations such as G7, G20, UN etc 8. Overseas aid 9. China and their growing global influence 10. Climate change and diplomacy required to try and persuade others to make and meet commitments To my mind, the above are far more significant foreign policy issues. That's very different from your original post, where you said that people needed to focus on policies for the UK. But okay, expanding your point to include UK foreign policy ... Just parking the morality of the UK sending billions in arms and cash to a country to commit genocide for a moment (I'm amazed at how quickly you're prepared to look the other way on this), the World Bank has already published a report suggesting that, the conflict could very easily produce a disastrous economic shock to the entire world economy. Saudi Arabia has already warned Israel that if they go into Rafah, then they should expect grave consequences. In 1973 the Gulf states oil embargo in retaliation for the US supplying arms to Israel, resulted in the price of oil QUADRUPLING, you seriously don't believe that a similar consequence of the conflict now "won't have any impact on anything whatsoever" (your words)? And of course there is the real tangible threat of the conflict escalating, which would have a catastrophic effect on so many levels, if it were allowed to do so. 2021 analysis by the Campaign against arms trade revealed that the British government financed more than £17 billion worth of weapons to nearly 70% of the world's worst human rights abusers, such as Egypt, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Thailand and Turkey. In 2023 and 2024 we can add Israel to the list perhaps. This isn’t about morality. There is nothing moral about selling weapons. Selling weapons to awful regimes will continue. I agree I was flippant and wrong in saying “won't have any impact on anything whatsoever". I agree that war with Iran, the country who fund Hamas, could be catastrophic. But I doubt it will come to that (like Russia and the US, Iran are good at fighting proxy wars only). I still stand by the 10 bigger and more consequential foreign policy issues that Labour’s position on has more impact on UK citizens daily life than their position on Israel/Palestine. Even less consequential is the Labour candidate for Rochdale’s stance. What is more important is what Labour will do to mitigate impacts in the UK. They cannot stop Israel. They cannot stop Hamas.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2024 13:58:46 GMT
I think the press are saying that Oggy...I would not have thought most people in the UK are too bothered about Israel/Hamas in comparison to their own personal lot in life. The posters on the Oatcake don't represent public opinion. The board may not represent society as a whole but don't underestimate people's reaction ethnic cleansing and genocide when the media can no longer keep it out of the public domain. Iraq was the same, people didn't say "but what about domestic issues?" they got out and demonstrated. It's exactly because our current political representatives should focus more on domestic issues that ridiculous almost cult like groups such as Labour/Conservative Friends of Israel should be disbanded........ I agree to an extent, but Iraq was our war. Our invasion. This isn’t our war.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2024 14:01:30 GMT
I will continue to be critical of Zionism as was Gerald Kaufmann and if any party is not tolerant of that view then they will not get my vote. Hopefully you will also be critical of Hamas and not vote for any party that isn’t anything but critical of Hamas.
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Post by gawa on Feb 14, 2024 14:05:26 GMT
I get the impression that both with Corbyn and now Starmer, where a labour leader stands on Israel and Palestine is many times more important to most people than their policies for the UK. Hamas won’t pay attention to British labour. Neither will Netenyahu. People need to start working on their priorities and focus on what has an impact on theirs and their family’s daily life, rather than an opinion on an issue which has no impact on anything whatsoever. The focus on something completely outside of british labour’s control is a gift to the tories. Completely agree with you there mate. It was Corbyns policies which actually attracted supporters and a surge in membership to the Labour party - not his position on Palestine. Shame starmer has no policies or position he stands firm on aside from genocide.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 14, 2024 14:34:33 GMT
That's very different from your original post, where you said that people needed to focus on policies for the UK. But okay, expanding your point to include UK foreign policy ... Just parking the morality of the UK sending billions in arms and cash to a country to commit genocide for a moment (I'm amazed at how quickly you're prepared to look the other way on this), the World Bank has already published a report suggesting that, the conflict could very easily produce a disastrous economic shock to the entire world economy. Saudi Arabia has already warned Israel that if they go into Rafah, then they should expect grave consequences. In 1973 the Gulf states oil embargo in retaliation for the US supplying arms to Israel, resulted in the price of oil QUADRUPLING, you seriously don't believe that a similar consequence of the conflict now "won't have any impact on anything whatsoever" (your words)? And of course there is the real tangible threat of the conflict escalating, which would have a catastrophic effect on so many levels, if it were allowed to do so. 2021 analysis by the Campaign against arms trade revealed that the British government financed more than £17 billion worth of weapons to nearly 70% of the world's worst human rights abusers, such as Egypt, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Thailand and Turkey. In 2023 and 2024 we can add Israel to the list perhaps. This isn’t about morality. There is nothing moral about selling weapons. Selling weapons to awful regimes will continue. I agree I was flippant and wrong in saying “won't have any impact on anything whatsoever". I agree that war with Iran, the country who fund Hamas, could be catastrophic. But I doubt it will come to that (like Russia and the US, Iran are good at fighting proxy wars only). I still stand by the 10 bigger and more consequential foreign policy issues that Labour’s position on has more impact on UK citizens daily life than their position on Israel/Palestine. Even less consequential is the Labour candidate for Rochdale’s stance. What is more important is what Labour will do to mitigate impacts in the UK. They cannot stop Israel. They cannot stop Hamas. Ourselves and the US have a massive influence in Palestine/Israel, well we already do by funding/supporting them. If that funding and support was to end, it would stop Israel's Genoicide in it's tracks. And if (we can only dream) the UK and the US were to support international sanctions AGAINST Israel, we might finally be able to get people round a table. I'm assuming you would have been happy for us to have turned a blind eye to apartheid South Africa too because it didn't really affect people's daily lives here either? apnews.com/article/un-israel-palestinians-gaza-guterres-cff00a5b6b7295b738a2255b03a6090eUNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United Nations chief warned Israel on Tuesday that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ’s rejection of a two-state solution will indefinitely prolong a conflict that is threatening global peace and emboldening extremists everywhere.
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Post by wannabee on Feb 14, 2024 14:35:15 GMT
"He's my mate so he's ok" Ed Balls seems to be downplaying "antisemitism" here, he should have his Labour membership suspended immediately........ You're enjoying Starmers discomfort way too much Balls contention that Jones is not a Corbynite, Hard Left, Anti Israel nor an Antisemite by definition means he thinks Corbyn and anyone that supports him as being all those things. Quite the claim. The Torys had an issue with their connections and Donations from Friends of Russia They were able to skillfully bury and manage it courtesy of a compliant Press Labour has strong links and receives Donations from Friends of Israel. There's no such thing as a Free Lunch www.declassifieduk.org/two-fifths-of-keir-starmers-cabinet-have-been-funded-by-pro-israel-lobbyists/It is scandalous that British Political Parties receive Donations from Opaque Foreign semi-Government Lobby Groups that at least give the impression of influence in decision making. Why else would someone make a Donation to a Political Party
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 14, 2024 14:41:57 GMT
"He's my mate so he's ok" Ed Balls seems to be downplaying "antisemitism" here, he should have his Labour membership suspended immediately........ You're enjoying Starmers discomfort way too much Balls contention that Jones is not a Corbynite, Hard Left, Anti Israel nor an Antisemite by definition means he thinks Corbyn and anyone that supports him as being all those things. Quite the claim. The Torys had an issue with their connections and Donations from Friends of Russia They were able to skillfully bury and manage it courtesy of a compliant Press Labour has strong links and receives Donations from Friends of Israel. There's no such thing as a Free Lunch www.declassifieduk.org/two-fifths-of-keir-starmers-cabinet-have-been-funded-by-pro-israel-lobbyists/It is scandalous that British Political Parties receive Donations from Opaque Foreign semi-Government Lobby Groups that at least give the impression of influence in decision making. Why else would someone make a Donation to a Political Party
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 14, 2024 15:18:39 GMT
Talking of antisemitism....
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 14, 2024 15:22:52 GMT
Do you know what, I don't actually understand why Azhar Ali's comments are regarded as being antisemitic.
There have been numerous US politicians (some very highly placed) who have suggested that 9/11 was an inside job.
What's the difference between the two, nobody has accused them of being anti-Christian?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 14, 2024 15:27:34 GMT
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Post by gawa on Feb 14, 2024 15:46:19 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 14, 2024 15:46:49 GMT
I think the press are saying that Oggy...I would not have thought most people in the UK are too bothered about Israel/Hamas in comparison to their own personal lot in life. The posters on the Oatcake don't represent public opinion. The board may not represent society as a whole but don't underestimate people's reaction ethnic cleansing and genocide when the media can no longer keep it out of the public domain. Iraq was the same, people didn't say "but what about domestic issues?" they got out and demonstrated. It's exactly because our current political representatives should focus more on domestic issues that ridiculous almost cult like groups such as Labour/Conservative Friends of Israel should be disbanded........ Large numbers did protest across the country....and obviously it is a major issue about which people need to express their oppositionand utter anger..I'm not sure what proportion of the entire voting population the protesters represent. And Voting in a General election could be seen as a different " issue", Many other factors will be taken into account when deciding which way to vote...I don't think the Friends of Israel will be in many people's thoughts.[br Unfortunately people get " used" to major issues...the Ukraine war has faded somewhat as a conscious concern. And in any case there is little between the two main parties on the Israeli/ Hamas issue to influence voting intentions....although Labour have done their usual thing and made it a very divisive internal issue. In my opinion
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 14, 2024 15:51:22 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2024 15:53:09 GMT
2021 analysis by the Campaign against arms trade revealed that the British government financed more than £17 billion worth of weapons to nearly 70% of the world's worst human rights abusers, such as Egypt, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Thailand and Turkey. In 2023 and 2024 we can add Israel to the list perhaps. This isn’t about morality. There is nothing moral about selling weapons. Selling weapons to awful regimes will continue. I agree I was flippant and wrong in saying “won't have any impact on anything whatsoever". I agree that war with Iran, the country who fund Hamas, could be catastrophic. But I doubt it will come to that (like Russia and the US, Iran are good at fighting proxy wars only). I still stand by the 10 bigger and more consequential foreign policy issues that Labour’s position on has more impact on UK citizens daily life than their position on Israel/Palestine. Even less consequential is the Labour candidate for Rochdale’s stance. What is more important is what Labour will do to mitigate impacts in the UK. They cannot stop Israel. They cannot stop Hamas. Ourselves and the US have a massive influence in Palestine/Israel, well we already do by funding/supporting them. If that funding and support was to end, it would stop Israel's Genoicide in it's tracks. And if (we can only dream) the UK and the US were to support international sanctions AGAINST Israel, we might finally be able to get people round a table. I'm assuming you would have been happy for us to have turned a blind eye to apartheid South Africa too because it didn't really affect people's daily lives here either? apnews.com/article/un-israel-palestinians-gaza-guterres-cff00a5b6b7295b738a2255b03a6090eUNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United Nations chief warned Israel on Tuesday that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ’s rejection of a two-state solution will indefinitely prolong a conflict that is threatening global peace and emboldening extremists everywhere. I agree about the US. I disagree about the UK. You over estimate our significance in the wider world. Israel will not stop if Labour tell them to, or stop selling weapons to them (which definitely won’t happen). I am not saying we turn a blind eye to what is happening in Gaza, (like we have in Yemen, or with Uyghur genocide in China and nobody really cares about that). I just think generally in life it is better to focus more on things within your control than things outside of your control. There are much bigger issues in the UK and relating to our foreign policy than this conflict (I appreciate others may disagree with that opinion, as is their right). But there is an absolute obsession in the labour party only over this issue. To the extent that it imploded to bring down one leader, and threatens to implode again to bring down another. That will result in the tories winning again, the further depletion of public services, more people falling into poverty, worsening mental health, the further extraction of wealth from the masses to the very elite multi millionaires and those well connected, the further derision of our democracy and standing within the world. Labour needs to start focusing on those matters more than this issue and it needs to stop actively trying to avoid power.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2024 15:54:19 GMT
Talking of antisemitism.... I bet the Tories don’t try and bring down their leader over this. In labour they would.
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