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Post by gawa on Dec 3, 2023 2:39:55 GMT
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 3, 2023 11:30:41 GMT
We're over 25 years in Northern Ireland now. Much prefer it. Was peace achieved in N Ire just by a foreign government having a vote about it during the height of tensions? Or did it take years of diplomacy and negotiations? Realistically, a temporary ceasefire, or humanitarian pause, is the only plausible way of persuading Israel to stop for aid to get in. They are never going to stop when they know the second they do, Hamas will attack them again. I am all for peace. So is Sunak and Starmer. But peace doesn’t happen overnight. The big difference between this situation and NI is that within the groups representing the two communities there were people at the top willing to lay down their arms and agree a political solution. Neither the leaders of Hamas nor the current government of Isreal are showing the slightest interest in a political solution - they are both committed to the violent destruction of the other side. Unless both communities find alternative leaders to represent them the pre conditions for a political solution simply isn't there.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Dec 3, 2023 11:57:38 GMT
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Post by andystokey on Dec 3, 2023 12:03:51 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 3, 2023 12:21:28 GMT
Was peace achieved in N Ire just by a foreign government having a vote about it during the height of tensions? Or did it take years of diplomacy and negotiations? Realistically, a temporary ceasefire, or humanitarian pause, is the only plausible way of persuading Israel to stop for aid to get in. They are never going to stop when they know the second they do, Hamas will attack them again. I am all for peace. So is Sunak and Starmer. But peace doesn’t happen overnight. The big difference between this situation and NI is that within the groups representing the two communities there were people at the top willing to lay down their arms and agree a political solution. Neither the leaders of Hamas nor the current government of Isreal are showing the slightest interest in a political solution - they are both committed to the violent destruction of the other side. Unless both communities find alternative leaders to represent them the pre conditions for a political solution simply isn't there. Hence why asking for a permanent ceasefire is ridiculous.
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Post by gawa on Dec 3, 2023 13:56:43 GMT
Anybody else feeling like we are destined for a centre of right government no matter what at the next election?
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Post by yeokel on Dec 3, 2023 14:04:12 GMT
Anybody else feeling like we are destined for a centre of right government no matter what at the next election? I think it could be worse than that. No matter how bad Starmer is, leading up to and during the election, I suspect Labour might just about emerge as the largest party. However, once the horse trading begins, if history repeats itself, the Libs, if offered the slightest whiff of power, will jump straight in to bed with the Tories and we'll be back where we started. Rudderless and directionless as a country.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 3, 2023 18:06:56 GMT
Anybody else feeling like we are destined for a centre of right government no matter what at the next election? I think it could be worse than that. No matter how bad Starmer is, leading up to and during the election, I suspect Labour might just about emerge as the largest party. However, once the horse trading begins, if history repeats itself, the Libs, if offered the slightest whiff of power, will jump straight in to bed with the Tories and we'll be back where we started. Rudderless and directionless as a country. There's no way the Lib Dems will do a deal with the Tories - they were shafted last time and the Tories have moved way further to the right and Labour have gone centre right and closer politically to the Lib Dems. If Labour don't get a majority (and I think they will) the Lib Dems will do a deal with Labour on the basis of bringing in PR and an end to the two party state. That would be my ideal outcome but unfortunately I can't see it happening.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 3, 2023 19:48:01 GMT
Anybody else feeling like we are destined for a centre of right government no matter what at the next election? I don’t think saying Thatcher “effected meaningful change” and that she "sought to drag Britain out of its stupor by setting loose our natural entrepreneurialism" makes Starmer centre right. It isn’t really praise after all, but we wouldn’t want to get in the way of a good headline!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 3, 2023 20:05:56 GMT
Anybody else feeling like we are destined for a centre of right government no matter what at the next election? I don’t think saying Thatcher “effected meaningful change” and that she "sought to drag Britain out of its stupor by setting loose our natural entrepreneurialism" makes Starmer centre right. It isn’t really praise after, but we wouldn’t want to get in the way of a good headline! Exactly! I wonder how many on here commenting have actually read it! He also talks about Attlee and Blair as having meaningful impact. If you want to get elected in Conservative England you have to play the game and part of that is don't frighten the Mail readers nor give the Tory Press material to work with.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 3, 2023 22:07:19 GMT
I don’t think saying Thatcher “effected meaningful change” and that she "sought to drag Britain out of its stupor by setting loose our natural entrepreneurialism" makes Starmer centre right. It isn’t really praise after, but we wouldn’t want to get in the way of a good headline! Exactly! I wonder how many on here commenting have actually read it! He also talks about Attlee and Blair as having meaningful impact. If you want to get elected in Conservative England you have to play the game and part of that is don't frighten the Mail readers nor give the Tory Press material to work with. I completely agree with what you are saying. My issue is that the two parties with any chance of forming a government have to lie about their real convictions in order to get elected. Starmer is bullshitting just as much as Johnson did at the last election. It's understandable but all it does is undermine trust on the political process.
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Post by gawa on Dec 4, 2023 0:57:12 GMT
Anybody else feeling like we are destined for a centre of right government no matter what at the next election? I don’t think saying Thatcher “effected meaningful change” and that she "sought to drag Britain out of its stupor by setting loose our natural entrepreneurialism" makes Starmer centre right. It isn’t really praise after all, but we wouldn’t want to get in the way of a good headline! My opinion hasn't changed because of that article.
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Post by gawa on Dec 4, 2023 1:02:29 GMT
Exactly! I wonder how many on here commenting have actually read it! He also talks about Attlee and Blair as having meaningful impact. If you want to get elected in Conservative England you have to play the game and part of that is don't frighten the Mail readers nor give the Tory Press material to work with. I completely agree with what you are saying. My issue is that the two parties with any chance of forming a government have to lie about their real convictions in order to get elected. Starmer is bullshitting just as much as Johnson did at the last election. It's understandable but all it does is undermine trust on the political process. If Starmer gets elected its not due to anything he's done or said. He's up against a tory party drenched in corruption which has been self combusting for the last few years. It's more of a people desperate to get tories out rather than a people desperate to get starmer in. And this tory party seem to be content with that outcome. He doesn't strike fear into them or their media paymasters like a true left wing leader would. Did Blair tell alot of lies to get elected? Or was he just not terribly left wing both pre and post election? Was there this dramatic 180 in his attitude before and after election that some starmer super fans think is going to happen? Or was he very much mostly the same.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Dec 4, 2023 6:54:37 GMT
I completely agree with what you are saying. My issue is that the two parties with any chance of forming a government have to lie about their real convictions in order to get elected. Starmer is bullshitting just as much as Johnson did at the last election. It's understandable but all it does is undermine trust on the political process. If Starmer gets elected its not due to anything he's done or said. He's up against a tory party drenched in corruption which has been self combusting for the last few years. It's more of a people desperate to get tories out rather than a people desperate to get starmer in. And this tory party seem to be content with that outcome. He doesn't strike fear into them or their media paymasters like a true left wing leader would. Did Blair tell alot of lies to get elected? Or was he just not terribly left wing both pre and post election? Was there this dramatic 180 in his attitude before and after election that some starmer super fans think is going to happen? Or was he very much mostly the same. www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/03/keir-starmer-labour-wont-turn-on-spending-taps-wins-electionSame masters, different colour ties. The ordinary Joe will see little real change. In fact they'll likely just experience further regression. It'd a country run by the 'elite' for the 'elite', the rest of us are just a hindrance. Same as it ever was.
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Post by adri2008 on Dec 4, 2023 7:00:56 GMT
Starmer was just making the point that Thatcher had a clear underlying sense of purpose which was true.
The country has been drifting aimlessly since Brexit and it needs a leader with a clear vision to move the country forward. Whether Starmer is it is another matter of course - current policies suggest tinkering around the edges.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 4, 2023 7:28:35 GMT
I completely agree with what you are saying. My issue is that the two parties with any chance of forming a government have to lie about their real convictions in order to get elected. Starmer is bullshitting just as much as Johnson did at the last election. It's understandable but all it does is undermine trust on the political process. If Starmer gets elected its not due to anything he's done or said. He's up against a tory party drenched in corruption which has been self combusting for the last few years. It's more of a people desperate to get tories out rather than a people desperate to get starmer in. And this tory party seem to be content with that outcome. He doesn't strike fear into them or their media paymasters like a true left wing leader would. Did Blair tell alot of lies to get elected? Or was he just not terribly left wing both pre and post election? Was there this dramatic 180 in his attitude before and after election that some starmer super fans think is going to happen? Or was he very much mostly the same. You don’t speak for everyone. Some people will vote for Starmer because they like him/his policies more than Sunak’s.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 4, 2023 7:49:36 GMT
If Starmer gets elected its not due to anything he's done or said. He's up against a tory party drenched in corruption which has been self combusting for the last few years. It's more of a people desperate to get tories out rather than a people desperate to get starmer in. And this tory party seem to be content with that outcome. He doesn't strike fear into them or their media paymasters like a true left wing leader would. Did Blair tell alot of lies to get elected? Or was he just not terribly left wing both pre and post election? Was there this dramatic 180 in his attitude before and after election that some starmer super fans think is going to happen? Or was he very much mostly the same. www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/03/keir-starmer-labour-wont-turn-on-spending-taps-wins-electionSame masters, different colour ties. The ordinary Joe will see little real change. In fact they'll likely just experience further regression. It'd a country run by the 'elite' for the 'elite', the rest of us are just a hindrance. Same as it ever was. Would you prefer Truss style approach? Starmer is reducing expectations. I’d prefer to see him say “I will spend what I can and make the rich pay” but that would be electoral suicide. He can’t do anything if he doesn’t get elected and our electoral system encourages politicians to be simply the least worst option of two parties to get into power.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Dec 4, 2023 8:22:02 GMT
Would you prefer Truss style approach? Starmer is reducing expectations. I’d prefer to see him say “I will spend what I can and make the rich pay” but that would be electoral suicide. He can’t do anything if he doesn’t get elected and our electoral system encourages politicians to be simply the least worst option of two parties to get into power. Odds on him biting the hand that feeds him when he gets into power? He'll be off to Davos on the private jet like the rest of the grifters.
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Post by Eggybread on Dec 4, 2023 8:29:56 GMT
Shit house. There is just no credible alternative is there, right wing tory politics or right wing Labour take your pick. I would say that most people in this country are middle of the road and more Liberal than anything else. But every time the Liberal party get anywhere near doing really well they fuck it up, or get in bed with the devil.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 4, 2023 8:31:43 GMT
Would you prefer Truss style approach? Starmer is reducing expectations. I’d prefer to see him say “I will spend what I can and make the rich pay” but that would be electoral suicide. He can’t do anything if he doesn’t get elected and our electoral system encourages politicians to be simply the least worst option of two parties to get into power. Odds on him biting the hand that feeds him when he gets into power? He'll be off to Davos on the private jet like the rest of the grifters. Of course he will be off to davos. He was there last year. I suspect he will make more rich people pay than the tories. A low bar of course. Going after covid fraud is a start, but reeves wants to simplify the tax code and that is exactly what is needed. Proof will be in the pudding, obviously.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 4, 2023 8:34:51 GMT
Shit house. There is just no credible alternative is there, right wing tory politics or right wing Labour take your pick. I would say that most people in this country are middle of the road and more Liberal than anything else. But every time the Liberal party get anywhere near doing really well they fuck it up, or get in bed with the devil. Starmer, like Blair, fits very well in that centre ground where the lib dems have occupied. Do you think Thatcher didn’t effect change in the country then? That’s what Starmer actually said. He also commented that several other former PMs did the same. A headline of “Starmer says Thatcher changed things” isn’t as attractive as click bait.
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Post by Eggybread on Dec 4, 2023 8:37:08 GMT
If Starmer gets elected its not due to anything he's done or said. He's up against a tory party drenched in corruption which has been self combusting for the last few years. It's more of a people desperate to get tories out rather than a people desperate to get starmer in. And this tory party seem to be content with that outcome. He doesn't strike fear into them or their media paymasters like a true left wing leader would. Did Blair tell alot of lies to get elected? Or was he just not terribly left wing both pre and post election? Was there this dramatic 180 in his attitude before and after election that some starmer super fans think is going to happen? Or was he very much mostly the same. You don’t speak for everyone. Some people will vote for Starmer because they like him/his policies more than Sunak’s. Id like to know what these "different policies" are.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 4, 2023 8:38:13 GMT
I completely agree with what you are saying. My issue is that the two parties with any chance of forming a government have to lie about their real convictions in order to get elected. Starmer is bullshitting just as much as Johnson did at the last election. It's understandable but all it does is undermine trust on the political process. If Starmer gets elected its not due to anything he's done or said. He's up against a tory party drenched in corruption which has been self combusting for the last few years. It's more of a people desperate to get tories out rather than a people desperate to get starmer in. And this tory party seem to be content with that outcome. He doesn't strike fear into them or their media paymasters like a true left wing leader would. Did Blair tell alot of lies to get elected? Or was he just not terribly left wing both pre and post election? Was there this dramatic 180 in his attitude before and after election that some starmer super fans think is going to happen? Or was he very much mostly the same. I don't see much difference between Blair and Starmer. Foreign policy aside, the Blair government was the last time things actually improved in this country. If Starmer's Labour achieve the same it'll be no bad thing. It'll be harder for Starmer because he's inheriting a basket case of a country, whereas Blair didn't, but he can definitely stop the ship, turn it around and get it going in the right direction again after 13 years of the opposite. If Starmer's govt applies pragmatic centre ground policies that work for more people more of the time I don't really care what political pigeonhole people want to put him in. As Mao said, "It doesn't matter if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice".
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 4, 2023 8:40:03 GMT
You don’t speak for everyone. Some people will vote for Starmer because they like him/his policies more than Sunak’s. Id like to know what these "different policies" are. Nationalised green energy company, going after covid fraud, not binning a levels, binning Rwanda policy, preventative nhs, simplifying tax code, Lords reform, moving away from culture war issues, higher windfall taxes on energy companies, reducing incentives for businesses to employ from abroad rather than from here. There are a few for you. Many more will appear in the manifesto.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 4, 2023 8:52:23 GMT
I never thought I'd hear a Labour leader praising Thatcher. Unthinkable. Why he's trying to appeal to die-hard Tories makes no senses at all - stick to offering a credible alternative to austerity.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 4, 2023 12:58:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2023 16:12:27 GMT
Following on from the current finance secretary’s speech about the economy at a forum today, Starmer was asked something along the lines of “but what are you actually going to do that’s different to the reforms that were listed earlier if you are now curtailing initial investment” To which Starmer simply stuttered his way through blaming Conservatives for the current position (fair) and rambling on about that for a while. I turned it off after I’d finished my coffee but I’d be surprised if he came up with anything substantial. Starmer is a slightly left version of a Tory pre-Johnson era. This is a snippet from that: www.reuters.com/world/uk/labour-wont-turn-spending-taps-if-it-wins-uk-election-starmer-says-2023-12-03/Vote Starmer for a Conservative view of the past 😂
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Post by gawa on Dec 4, 2023 16:56:41 GMT
If Starmer gets elected its not due to anything he's done or said. He's up against a tory party drenched in corruption which has been self combusting for the last few years. It's more of a people desperate to get tories out rather than a people desperate to get starmer in. And this tory party seem to be content with that outcome. He doesn't strike fear into them or their media paymasters like a true left wing leader would. Did Blair tell alot of lies to get elected? Or was he just not terribly left wing both pre and post election? Was there this dramatic 180 in his attitude before and after election that some starmer super fans think is going to happen? Or was he very much mostly the same. You don’t speak for everyone. Some people will vote for Starmer because they like him/his policies more than Sunak’s. Did I say I speak for everyone? Well I don't see many posters on here who voted tory last election saying they're changing their vote due to starmers policies. Those who are, are changing because of the tory sleaze.
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Post by gawa on Dec 4, 2023 17:22:24 GMT
Id like to know what these "different policies" are. Nationalised green energy company, going after covid fraud, not binning a levels, binning Rwanda policy, preventative nhs, simplifying tax code, Lords reform, moving away from culture war issues, higher windfall taxes on energy companies, reducing incentives for businesses to employ from abroad rather than from here. There are a few for you. Many more will appear in the manifesto. Is the Rwanda policy not being scrapped whoever is in charge due to legal issues? I don't see any progress in the last 12 months in regards to it. Has Clevery not just made an announcement in regards to reducing incentives for businesses to employ abroad? The scrapping of A levels is just a change to Advanced British Standards were pupils will do more subjects and A levels and T levels will come under same scheme. Why is starmer deciding not to scrap them a vote winner? Despite party members voting for it. Did the shadow business secretary not say at the Labour conference that they won't be nationalising energy - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67056005Windfall tax on energy companies. Has he mentioned this in the last 12 months? All went very quiet there. Tacking covid fraud. Let's see if actions speak louder than words when push comes to shove. House of Lords reforms. Pretty sure he said he was going to scrap that but then u turned. What is a preventative NHS? Aside from being similar to a tory three word slogan. Words aside what's the plan? Or is that the plan "a preventative NHS" with no actual plan, just a slogan. What's the big pledge to move away from culture war issues? Is immigration not one of those, something which starmer has been getting involved in? Same for trans and self identity. I don't see how he's moved or moving away. What is the simplyfing tax code going to do for the working man? Why not raise tax for the highest earners giving inequality. Whys he saying he's not going to do that? If that's the best he can come up with then you can see why it's not inspiring in the slightest. We've a huge issue with inequality in this country and none of the above suggests there's any plan to tackle it.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 4, 2023 17:27:54 GMT
You don’t speak for everyone. Some people will vote for Starmer because they like him/his policies more than Sunak’s. Did I say I speak for everyone? Well I don't see many posters on here who voted tory last election saying they're changing their vote due to starmers policies. Those who are, are changing because of the tory sleaze. No, but you did say “ If Starmer gets elected its not due to anything he's done or said”. I think lots of people will vote for Starmer for the things he has said and done. He may be uninspiring and not very transformative, but he strikes me as capable of running an administration not drenched in sleaze and corruption. Others will agree and therefore, as you say, vote for him because he represents a likely change from Tory sleaze. He must have said or done something for that conclusion to be reached.
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