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Post by sportsman on May 14, 2020 10:59:12 GMT
That's right. I just wonder where we'd be now and what would have happened if every nursing home manager showed 'common sense' for want of a better word in refusing to allow them in? Like I say she knows of one that is willingly taking them in without question. Surely they couldn't have forced them back? My wife would have bolted the door first. So for me, as much as we can point the finger to government or nhs protocol at the time, nursing home managers should have politely told them to get f....d until they've been tested. I know some don't like the phrase but for me it is common sense. What you've just said, is that they should have ignored the government advice and used their own personal common sense instead. If that's the case, what's the point in the Government issuing the advice in the first place? No I agree with that point. I hear dr hillary this morning saying he thinks they wanted residents out of hospital beds as they were then more probable to catch it than being back in their nursing home. Which is the case with my wife's incident where the elderly resident had gone in hospital for something else and the hospital said she got the symptoms whilst being in there. Maybe that's the view at the time to get them in and get them back to the nursing home as soon as possible where at the time they were maybe less likely to get it. I don't know?
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 14, 2020 11:02:28 GMT
Yes we're extremely lucky to have Matt on board mate. 👍 It's an individual thing Paul but , for me, I'd simply absolutely hate the wearing of masks to become the " norm"....it might not bother others....but I just don't think that ' normsl' life is meant to be like that. It is the ' norm' for people who have or may have contact with blood to wear gloves.....I don't want it to be the ' norm' to wear masks...because we MIGHT have contact with something that we can't see.....a life lived in a state of low level fear? I guess there are three questions you raise there John? 1. Does 'normal' actually exist anymore (at least for the foreseeable)? 2. Do we actually have a choice about what we "want"? 3. And if we do, will, what we want change, depending on how much the virus touches us personally? For example, somebody who hasn't been touched by it at all, might change their attitude to masks, or their personal behaviour, if a person in their immediate family sadly died from the virus.
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Post by dexta on May 14, 2020 11:03:45 GMT
There's nothing positive about you. That's why you're bored the tits off most people on this forum over the past few weeks. You've just explained why you've been such a miserable twat on this subject. It's because you're a miserable excuse-ridden twat. Someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning. A lot of angry people on this board just lately. All from crapslingers right wing gang too Next MeltDown Betting sportsman50 - 8/11 longtonlad67 - 7/4 dutchstokie -3/1 medwaypotter - 6/1 crapslinger - 16/1 I will have a tenner on longtonlad he's one hell of a angry poster... He needs to take some kalms.. I would have said weed but its gone to dear atm
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Post by sportsman on May 14, 2020 11:11:19 GMT
Someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning. A lot of angry people on this board just lately. All from crapslingers right wing gang too Next MeltDown Betting sportsman50 - 8/11 longtonlad67 - 7/4 dutchstokie -3/1 medwaypotter - 6/1 crapslinger - 16/1 I will have a tenner on longtonlad he's one hell of a angry poster... He needs to take some kalms.. I would have said weed but its gone to dear atm Me, meltdown? Far too calm for that 😉
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 14, 2020 11:29:58 GMT
It's an individual thing Paul but , for me, I'd simply absolutely hate the wearing of masks to become the " norm"....it might not bother others....but I just don't think that ' normsl' life is meant to be like that. It is the ' norm' for people who have or may have contact with blood to wear gloves.....I don't want it to be the ' norm' to wear masks...because we MIGHT have contact with something that we can't see.....a life lived in a state of low level fear? I guess there are three questions you raise there John? 1. Does 'normal' actually exist anymore (at least for the foreseeable)? 2. Do we actually have a choice about what we "want"? 3. And if we do, will, what we want change, depending on how much the virus touches us personally? For example, somebody who hasn't been touched by it at all, might change their attitude to masks, or their personal behaviour, if a person in their immediate family sadly died from the virus. Yeah and I don't think he's meaning to be but the attitude displayed is selfish. And that's where the south east Asian nations have us beat. They do it for the collective good. We've got to get our heads around that. I hate, absolutely hate stuff on my face. The thought of wearing a mask fills me with absolute dread. I was always the one in DT taking my goggles off, scratching my face etc. I'm fucked in all of this really But I'm gonna try and change habits of a lifetime.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2020 11:32:08 GMT
Well quite. There have been some heroic care home managers taking matters into their own hands to avoid the Government 'body bag' Policy. That's right. I just wonder where we'd be now and what would have happened if every nursing home manager showed 'common sense' for want of a better word in refusing to allow them in? Like I say she knows of one that is willingly taking them in without question. Surely they couldn't have forced them back? My wife would have bolted the door first. So for me, as much as we can point the finger to government or nhs protocol at the time, nursing home managers should have politely told them to get f....d until they've been tested. I know some don't like the phrase but for me it is common sense. Do you not think the government should have taken control of this situation?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 14, 2020 11:40:00 GMT
I'm just interested on the possible impacts upon daily lifestyle. I think people are more wary about getting blood on their hands , post aids....at least I know that I am and that first aiders are. You make the comparison to flu' which kills vulnerable people each year, men in particular are not brilliant on hand hygiene and the take up of the vaccine is hardly universal....will we become the same in terms of this Coronavirus or will the health implications have a greater impact? Hygiene has to improve surely? I was shocked by the flu stats tbh and find them wholly unacceptable I hope others have too. Nevermind just why wouldn't you wash your hands after going to the toilet? Dirty fucks. The guidelines they bought out around it I didn't think needed saying. Horrible But a good question yeah, who knows? It seems a good number of places have got it under control. Taiwan haven't had a case for a month, they're letting crowds of 2000 into their baseball games from tomorrow, restaurants are open etc. But for us, we've got to get on top of it, improve our hygiene for sure as it does seem to curb this, have a proper tracing thing so if there is an outbreak like in South Korea with the clubs you can isolate it as best as possible. Face masks as well do seem to help. I think for the next 12 months at least we've all got to just look after each other that's why I hate this party line thing. I want the government to win at this, it means the country is doing well. I could not give a fuck what they are, that's irrelevant, them doing a good job is all that matters. We need unity but you look at the language they're using around furlough, it's divisive, you've got govt attack dog journos attacking teachers for not being brave etc. It's bullshit. We've got to act like the person you're walking next to, sitting near on the bus is your own Gran and how would you want her to be treated? I don't see that happening though. We seem to agree on this Bayern....I would hate to wear masks, but for my personal well being, for that of my family and friends and for the greater good accept that I/ we may have to...I would not like it.
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Post by werrington on May 14, 2020 11:40:33 GMT
That's right. I just wonder where we'd be now and what would have happened if every nursing home manager showed 'common sense' for want of a better word in refusing to allow them in? Like I say she knows of one that is willingly taking them in without question. Surely they couldn't have forced them back? My wife would have bolted the door first. So for me, as much as we can point the finger to government or nhs protocol at the time, nursing home managers should have politely told them to get f....d until they've been tested. I know some don't like the phrase but for me it is common sense. Do you not think the government should have taken control of this situation? It was on government instructions ( through NHS England ) that that whole situation was played out ....Not individual hospitals so he’s actually defending the real culprits in all of this
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Post by essexstokey on May 14, 2020 11:42:17 GMT
Boris's school reopening plans in chaos as government scientific advisor admits there is 'low confidence' pupils can't spread coronavirus and ministers have NO idea if it will trigger a second wave in 'shocking and disturbing' link
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Post by sportsman on May 14, 2020 11:42:31 GMT
That's right. I just wonder where we'd be now and what would have happened if every nursing home manager showed 'common sense' for want of a better word in refusing to allow them in? Like I say she knows of one that is willingly taking them in without question. Surely they couldn't have forced them back? My wife would have bolted the door first. So for me, as much as we can point the finger to government or nhs protocol at the time, nursing home managers should have politely told them to get f....d until they've been tested. I know some don't like the phrase but for me it is common sense. Do you not think the government should have taken control of this situation? I don't know what to say or the answer to it mate. Like I said, dr Hillary said they wanted them out of the hospital because they saw that as a worse place for them to be to catch it initially. My wife's incident, for 5 days the hospital in stoke didn't know their arse from their elbow with different nurses ringing up the nursing home saying you can have mrs x back now without them communicating with themselves on recent conversations about getting her tested. One nurse said she has been tested and she's fine. My wife said when was that? The nurse at the hospital said when she first came in!! My wife said she bloody knew that, but since being in there she's caught it and we're not having her back until she's been tested and clear.
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Post by thisisouryear on May 14, 2020 11:45:57 GMT
I nearly asked the question after Monday's press conference about why Johnson, Whitty and Valance had all of a sudden started talking about the prospect of there never being a vaccine? My wife is in the shielding group and had a letter a few weeks ago, telling her not to leave the house until at least the 30th June. My wife got quite upset at their comments because it made her feel like it was never going to end. Maybe they're now on the same page as Ryan in thinking that a vaccine is actually a massive moonshot. I think Paul, what they wanted to emphasise is a point I agree with. The vaccine is not a guarantee, it’s a possibility and we’ll need contingencies for no vaccine, a partially effective vaccine or a full coverage vaccine. Pinning our hopes on a vaccine and not preparing for the possibility of it not working would be leading us up a blind alley. What they didn’t convey at the same time well enough for me personally (my very elderly grandmother was also upset) however is that we will find things that make it easier to deal with and increase our understanding, treatment options independent of a vaccine. We are so early into our exposure to this, we were once at this point for nearly every virus and disease you can think of. We are so well placed to find things to make our lives easier than any other point in history. I would have caveated the message about the vaccine prospects with this kind of narrative. Is the BCG vaccine still looking a good option as some form of defence? Are there other vaccines out there similar to the BCG? When it says the BCG boosts immune cell production, is that unique or are there many vaccines that do that too?
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Post by werrington on May 14, 2020 11:46:32 GMT
Do you not think the government should have taken control of this situation? I don't know what to say or the answer to it mate. Like I said, dr Hillary said they wanted them out of the hospital because they saw that as a worse place for them to be to catch it initially. My wife's incident, for 5 days the hospital in stoke didn't know their arse from their elbow with different nurses ringing up the nursing home saying you can have mrs x back now without them communicating with themselves on recent conversations about getting her tested. One nurse said she has been tested and she's fine. My wife said when was that? The nurse at the hospital said when she first came in!! My wife said she bloody knew that, but since being in there she's caught it and we're not having her back until she's been tested and clear. The nursing/resi homes or families were not given a choice if patients were unable to return home The hospital beds right across the country were cleared in order for what was about to hit us That instruction was from NHS England and the government
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Post by Scrotnig on May 14, 2020 11:46:48 GMT
Boris's school reopening plans in chaos as government scientific advisor admits there is 'low confidence' pupils can't spread coronavirus and ministers have NO idea if it will trigger a second wave in 'shocking and disturbing' linkAnything the Daily Mail describe as "shocking and disturbing", isn't. It's a toxic shitstirring rag and nothing it publishes should be given any credence whatsoever.
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Post by thisisouryear on May 14, 2020 11:50:16 GMT
Boris's school reopening plans in chaos as government scientific advisor admits there is 'low confidence' pupils can't spread coronavirus and ministers have NO idea if it will trigger a second wave in 'shocking and disturbing' linkWhat I don't understand is how can teachers in primary schools wear masks. Surely for the safety of the children they can't wear masks.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 14, 2020 11:59:03 GMT
Hygiene has to improve surely? I was shocked by the flu stats tbh and find them wholly unacceptable I hope others have too. Nevermind just why wouldn't you wash your hands after going to the toilet? Dirty fucks. The guidelines they bought out around it I didn't think needed saying. Horrible But a good question yeah, who knows? It seems a good number of places have got it under control. Taiwan haven't had a case for a month, they're letting crowds of 2000 into their baseball games from tomorrow, restaurants are open etc. But for us, we've got to get on top of it, improve our hygiene for sure as it does seem to curb this, have a proper tracing thing so if there is an outbreak like in South Korea with the clubs you can isolate it as best as possible. Face masks as well do seem to help. I think for the next 12 months at least we've all got to just look after each other that's why I hate this party line thing. I want the government to win at this, it means the country is doing well. I could not give a fuck what they are, that's irrelevant, them doing a good job is all that matters. We need unity but you look at the language they're using around furlough, it's divisive, you've got govt attack dog journos attacking teachers for not being brave etc. It's bullshit. We've got to act like the person you're walking next to, sitting near on the bus is your own Gran and how would you want her to be treated? I don't see that happening though. We seem to agree on this Bayern....I would hate to wear masks, but for my personal well being, for that of my family and friends and for the greater good accept that I/ we may have to...I would not like it. Yeah and that's what we've got to do I think. As I've said above I hate the thought. It's something I've always thought about tbh, stuff covering my face and if I could cope like being taken hostage and having a bag over me. I'm weird I know but that's kind of where my head is with it and has been for years. I just hope people see it like that though and think they're making a difference with it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 14, 2020 11:59:11 GMT
Boris's school reopening plans in chaos as government scientific advisor admits there is 'low confidence' pupils can't spread coronavirus and ministers have NO idea if it will trigger a second wave in 'shocking and disturbing' linkThat is truly shocking, it's actually beyond belief ... "the Department for Education's top scientist admitted they had ' not done any modelling' on virus transmission in classes." "Osama Rahman also admitted that the decision to reopen has been taken by the Cabinet not the department," "Mr Rahman admitted that it was possible that 'hundreds of potential vectors' for the virus could be brought together amid a reopening of schools. And asked whether this meant that schools could become hot spots where children can catch the disease and spread it further, Mr Rahman said: 'Possibly, depending on school sizes.'"
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Post by sportsman on May 14, 2020 11:59:13 GMT
I don't know what to say or the answer to it mate. Like I said, dr Hillary said they wanted them out of the hospital because they saw that as a worse place for them to be to catch it initially. My wife's incident, for 5 days the hospital in stoke didn't know their arse from their elbow with different nurses ringing up the nursing home saying you can have mrs x back now without them communicating with themselves on recent conversations about getting her tested. One nurse said she has been tested and she's fine. My wife said when was that? The nurse at the hospital said when she first came in!! My wife said she bloody knew that, but since being in there she's caught it and we're not having her back until she's been tested and clear. The nursing/resi homes or families were not given a choice if patients were unable to return home The hospital beds right across the country were cleared in order for what was about to hit us That instruction was from NHS England and the government Well that's what my wife did and she stuck to it. Her home has had no cases so far touch wood. And if that's the case and they were clearing the hospitals for what was about to happen, what do you think they should have done?
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 14, 2020 12:02:42 GMT
The nursing/resi homes or families were not given a choice if patients were unable to return home The hospital beds right across the country were cleared in order for what was about to hit us That instruction was from NHS England and the government Well that's what my wife did and she stuck to it. Her home has had no cases so far touch wood. And if that's the case and they were clearing the hospitals for what was about to happen, what do you think they should have done? Followed the government's advice?
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Post by werrington on May 14, 2020 12:05:45 GMT
The nursing/resi homes or families were not given a choice if patients were unable to return home The hospital beds right across the country were cleared in order for what was about to hit us That instruction was from NHS England and the government Well that's what my wife did and she stuck to it. Her home has had no cases so far touch wood. And if that's the case and they were clearing the hospitals for what was about to happen, what do you think they should have done? Oh I agree 100% they should of been tested as I know as I caught it myself But the homes were given no option and they were instructed to take patients to help clear hospital beds and for the first time in my 29 year hospital experience neither the patient,the family or the homes were given no choice in the matter either That order was from higher echelons and not on the ground hospital managers
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 14, 2020 12:10:06 GMT
I think Paul, what they wanted to emphasise is a point I agree with. The vaccine is not a guarantee, it’s a possibility and we’ll need contingencies for no vaccine, a partially effective vaccine or a full coverage vaccine. Pinning our hopes on a vaccine and not preparing for the possibility of it not working would be leading us up a blind alley. What they didn’t convey at the same time well enough for me personally (my very elderly grandmother was also upset) however is that we will find things that make it easier to deal with and increase our understanding, treatment options independent of a vaccine. We are so early into our exposure to this, we were once at this point for nearly every virus and disease you can think of. We are so well placed to find things to make our lives easier than any other point in history. I would have caveated the message about the vaccine prospects with this kind of narrative. Is the BCG vaccine still looking a good option as some form of defence? Are there other vaccines out there similar to the BCG? When it says the BCG boosts immune cell production, is that unique or are there many vaccines that do that too? So the BCG is being proposed in some quarters as a bridge between where we are now and the rollout of a Covid specific antibody. When used for TB, the BCG does its job and indices immune responses creating TB bacteria specific antibodies to prepare for infection. This is the adaptive immune system. An off target effect however appears to be the potentiation of the innate immune system which is non specific but can clear foreign pathogens from the body if strong enough and quick enough. This may be because the vaccine uses an older approach of having a “live” bacteria in the vaccine itself that has been weakened by mass growth outside of a human body (for example if you infect cells in a flask with the bacteria and let them grow and grow and grow they will adapt to that environment and no longer cause disease when put into a whole body). This is called attenuation. The presence of a live but not dangerous bacteria in the body is then believed to put the body in a state of alertness for a period of time, heightening innate immunity which they believe means other pathogens in that time may be swamped before they can take hold in addition to antibodies against the actual vaccine content too. This phenomena has been found for most vaccines containing an attenuated pathogen such as measles and polio. Ignoring most of the technical terms, the concept is pretty clear based on this. Here is the paper that is from for a bit more depth: www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0337-y
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Post by crapslinger on May 14, 2020 12:11:18 GMT
Boris's school reopening plans in chaos as government scientific advisor admits there is 'low confidence' pupils can't spread coronavirus and ministers have NO idea if it will trigger a second wave in 'shocking and disturbing' linkDon't forget to register to vote
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Post by sheikhmomo on May 14, 2020 12:14:46 GMT
The nursing/resi homes or families were not given a choice if patients were unable to return home The hospital beds right across the country were cleared in order for what was about to hit us That instruction was from NHS England and the government Well that's what my wife did and she stuck to it. Her home has had no cases so far touch wood. And if that's the case and they were clearing the hospitals for what was about to happen, what do you think they should have done? As mentioned there were a small number of care homes which simply enforced lockdown before the Government and only took hospital patients confirmed with no covid. They also had their staff self isolating. More sense than this whole Government. Presumably you expect the 79,900 homes to independantly defy Government guidelines? What was your view of the Government guidelines at that time?
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Post by sportsman on May 14, 2020 12:17:03 GMT
Well that's what my wife did and she stuck to it. Her home has had no cases so far touch wood. And if that's the case and they were clearing the hospitals for what was about to happen, what do you think they should have done? Followed the government's advice? What and allowed someone back into the nursing home? What I meant as well to the above question is what do you think the government should have done.
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Post by sportsman on May 14, 2020 12:21:47 GMT
Well that's what my wife did and she stuck to it. Her home has had no cases so far touch wood. And if that's the case and they were clearing the hospitals for what was about to happen, what do you think they should have done? Oh I agree 100% they should of been tested as I know as I caught it myself But the homes were given no option and they were instructed to take patients to help clear hospital beds and for the first time in my 29 year hospital experience neither the patient,the family or the homes were given no choice in the matter either That order was from higher echelons and not on the ground hospital managers I can only go on our experience, which was my wife, as manager of a care home in stoke basically told the stoke hospital that until mrs x was tested she ain't coming back and that's that. The hospital after 5 days of balls ups in communication between themselves eventually did that and didn't try force mrs x back at all. I'm just wondering that instead of trying offer care homes 100 quid here and there to take them back, what would have happened if the nursing home of one I know how didn't even try, to tell them to kiss it until they have tested when the test were there with them?
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 14, 2020 12:22:52 GMT
Followed the government's advice? What and allowed someone back into the nursing home? What I meant as well to the above question is what do you think the government should have done. 1. Well that's what the government were telling them to do, so why should they think to themselves, ah the government must be wrong, I'll ignore them and do what I think instead? 2. Not send them back until they had been tested negative.
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Post by chad on May 14, 2020 12:31:56 GMT
Watched "Tubruk " yesterday (I know lockdown and war films..). A one point I was thinking hang on . Wrong equipment tanks ect. Rubbish leadership. Tactics from the darkages. Then i thought PPE/Boris/Herd E not much changed....... How many commanders did we send to North Africa before Monty? It was like a revolving door. And lets remeber that for the first half of the war we were pretty average and just kept our head above the water. Fuck me they’ll be blaming Boris for the war next !
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Post by thisisouryear on May 14, 2020 12:32:57 GMT
Is the BCG vaccine still looking a good option as some form of defence? Are there other vaccines out there similar to the BCG? When it says the BCG boosts immune cell production, is that unique or are there many vaccines that do that too? So the BCG is being proposed in some quarters as a bridge between where we are now and the rollout of a Covid specific antibody. When used for TB, the BCG does its job and indices immune responses creating TB bacteria specific antibodies to prepare for infection. This is the adaptive immune system. An off target effect however appears to be the potentiation of the innate immune system which is non specific but can clear foreign pathogens from the body if strong enough and quick enough. This may be because the vaccine uses an older approach of having a “live” bacteria in the vaccine itself that has been weakened by mass growth outside of a human body (for example if you infect cells in a flask with the bacteria and let them grow and grow and grow they will adapt to that environment and no longer cause disease when put into a whole body). This is called attenuation. The presence of a live but not dangerous bacteria in the body is then believed to put the body in a state of alertness for a period of time, heightening innate immunity which they believe means other pathogens in that time may be swamped before they can take hold in addition to antibodies against the actual vaccine content too. This phenomena has been found for most vaccines containing an attenuated pathogen such as measles and polio. Ignoring most of the technical terms, the concept is pretty clear based on this. Here is the paper that is from for a bit more depth: www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0337-yWhen I was kid I was told I was immune to Tuberculosis and that I must have already had it. My parents didn't have any knowledge of it and nor did I. Weirdly nobody else around me had caught it either.
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Post by stokeson on May 14, 2020 12:35:11 GMT
How many commanders did we send to North Africa before Monty? It was like a revolving door. And lets remeber that for the first half of the war we were pretty average and just kept our head above the water. Fuck me they’ll be blaming Boris for the war next ! If this was a war (and in some ways it is.) Boris would be posted as "missing in action."
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 14, 2020 12:36:18 GMT
Follow up to yesterday’s post about the Rhesus Monkey model. This is a paper detailing the efficacy of a single dose of the ChAdOx1 vaccine conferring protection to monkeys within that model despite constant exposure. Lower viral load found in the vaccinated monkeys, no onset of pneumonia and crucially no adverse effects.
[mention]bayernoatcake [/mention] This is what we were discussing yesterday, model out first and then the small (but still important) vaccine study.
Replicate this data in the Phase 1 trial underway, and we’ve got a start at least!
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Post by sheikhmomo on May 14, 2020 12:37:09 GMT
Fuck me they’ll be blaming Boris for the war next ! If this was a war (and in some ways it is.) Boris would be posted as "missing in action." Monday this week was the first and only statement on coronavirus he's made to The House of Commons.
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