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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 12:34:11 GMT
Sorry ๐ Biddulph Valley Way. ๐๐ You're local to me then?
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 13, 2020 12:37:03 GMT
But don't you think if you're standing next to whoever from government on the daily briefing live to the nation and you're the chief scientific officer you'd say hang on a min, I did advise against it but the economy says we have to move now. At the end of the day everyone knows these people now and if scientific advice says don't then surely he'd say that rather than agreeing live on tele? No they only advise, they don't dictate policy. Members of SAGE were up in arms last week when the government redacted large parts of one of their reports before it was released to the public.
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Post by sportsman on May 13, 2020 12:40:36 GMT
It's all very well scientists saying we should keep the economy shut down and lock everyone in their houses 24/7 until there's a vaccine. It isn't practical and a balance has to be struck. These same scientists have guaranteed jobs with index linked pensions. Take away their salary and pension and say you can't have it unless we have a functioning economy. You'd soon see their advice change. It's easy for them to condemn everyone except themselves to poverty, destitution and house arrest. Exactly. And who's this independent sage group consist of or come from. I haven't got a clue but my guess is a bitter ex scientific officer for the government or egged on by people from the labour party. I'm all for independent groups giving their opinion but do they have all the facts and knowledge that the government and theirs have? For me now this is trying to predice who'll win next years footy leagues. Only time will tell no matter how many sides try and point score either in government or on here, and no matter how many links people put up of james bloody o'Brien to try and prove a point, which made me laugh my head off, it will just play out now. If they have lifted early I'm sure it won't be for good reason with everything weighed up. They aren't going sit in a meeting and say I know let's have a play with it and see how this goes.
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 13, 2020 12:41:25 GMT
It's all very well scientists saying we should keep the economy shut down and lock everyone in their houses 24/7 until there's a vaccine. It isn't practical and a balance has to be struck. These same scientists have guaranteed jobs with index linked pensions. Take away their salary and pension and say you can't have it unless we have a functioning economy. You'd soon see their advice change. It's easy for them to condemn everyone except themselves to poverty, destitution and house arrest. But they haven't said keep the lockdown in place until there is a vaccine. They've said keep it in place until the test, track and trace protocols are ready, which the government have said will be ready by the end of the month, which in turn would make us timewise, roughly on a par with other countries coming out of lockdown now. Essentially they're suggesting we should have waited another couple of weeks.
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Post by chad on May 13, 2020 12:42:51 GMT
It's all very well scientists saying we should keep the economy shut down and lock everyone in their houses 24/7 until there's a vaccine. It isn't practical and a balance has to be struck. These same scientists have guaranteed jobs with index linked pensions. Take away their salary and pension and say you can't have it unless we have a functioning economy. You'd soon see their advice change. It's easy for them to condemn everyone except themselves to poverty, destitution and house arrest. Well there was at least one who didnโt think it was good advice ๐
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Post by sportsman on May 13, 2020 12:43:42 GMT
No they only advise, they don't dictate policy. Members of SAGE were up in arms last week when the government redacted large parts of one of their reports before it was released to the public. So is one of them going to stand there one night and say look it's not my idea don't blame me, when everyone is looking at the chief scientific officer stood next to boris? If it was me and they were going against my judgement and saying it was my idea I bloody would.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 13, 2020 12:47:21 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 13, 2020 12:49:38 GMT
So is one of them going to stand there one night and say look it's not my idea don't blame me, when everyone is looking at the chief scientific officer stood next to boris? If it was me and they were going against my judgement and saying it was my idea I bloody would. It just isn't it as black and white as you're making it sound. If it was all down to the scientists, well hey, we'd just let them manage the pandemic wouldn't we? Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland have all heard the same advice but they've all taken a different view.
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Post by lommack on May 13, 2020 12:51:43 GMT
But for how much longer can he get away with it? Apparantly Gove, Raab and Hancock have their daggers ready! Who says that Poirot? Well he is on the tele
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Post by theincontinents on May 13, 2020 13:08:43 GMT
To quote one Mr Peter Coates โwhatโs all the fuss aboutโ. I mean weโve left Europe now, so weโre fully in control of our borders are we not?๐
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Post by sportsman on May 13, 2020 13:11:44 GMT
It just isn't it as black and white as you're making it sound. If it was all down to the scientists, well hey, we'd just let them manage the pandemic wouldn't we? Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland have all heard the same advice but they've all taken a different view. But don't they have their own advisers? Ours stands there next to government every night and speaks for himself or herself and could get thr finger pointed at them. I wouldn't do it if I knew something was definitely not what I'd suggest. I'd say hey don't count me in on this part.
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Post by sportsman on May 13, 2020 13:12:29 GMT
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Post by sportsman on May 13, 2020 13:16:32 GMT
Brits in benidorm are packing the bars and restaurants and drinking freely. See how this goes eh!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 13:17:09 GMT
Thatโs communism/ dictatorship for you ๐ Yes it is. I saw on tv last night that we're probably one of the few European country to record the death figures as accurately as possible. I wonder how many countries world wide can actually say the same? Look at the excess deaths figures for countries worldwide, and look at the percentage of excess deaths been credited to Coronavirus. You can make a fairly sound assumption based on them providing you obviously trust the overall mortality data. In England particularly they make for pretty grim reading. I've seen people questioning the likes of France's data for example, yet 70% of our excess deaths are down to Coronavirus compared to nearly 90% of theirs......
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Post by Scrotnig on May 13, 2020 13:23:33 GMT
It's all very well scientists saying we should keep the economy shut down and lock everyone in their houses 24/7 until there's a vaccine. It isn't practical and a balance has to be struck. These same scientists have guaranteed jobs with index linked pensions. Take away their salary and pension and say you can't have it unless we have a functioning economy. You'd soon see their advice change. It's easy for them to condemn everyone except themselves to poverty, destitution and house arrest. But they haven't said keep the lockdown in place until there is a vaccine. They've said keep it in place until the test, track and trace protocols are ready, which the government have said will be ready by the end of the month, which in turn would make us timewise, roughly on a par with other countries coming out of lockdown now. Essentially they're suggesting we should have waited another couple of weeks. Well we mostly ARE waiting another couple of weeks, and even then it will not be much. Things are being spun by the media as if there's some sort of big change happening this week. There isn't. People who were already told they could go to work, are again being told they can go to work. We hope to open a tiny bit of the school system - but not for a couple of weeks at least. You can go out alone for longer or meet one other person outside. You can go to a garden centre. Some takeaways who were never supposed to close, are slowly but only partially reopening. Er that's about it. It's not like we've opened the floodgates, and anyone healthy who is still so terrified that they feel the need to hide under a rock until there's a vaccine, can do so, just as long as they don't expect the free money to continue that long. Even then they've got until the end of October!
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Post by sportsman on May 13, 2020 13:26:14 GMT
Yes it is. I saw on tv last night that we're probably one of the few European country to record the death figures as accurately as possible. I wonder how many countries world wide can actually say the same? Look at the excess deaths figures for countries worldwide, and look at the percentage of excess deaths been credited to Coronavirus. You can make a fairly sound assumption based on them providing you obviously trust the overall mortality data. In England particularly they make for pretty grim reading. I've seen people questioning the likes of France's data for example, yet 70% of our excess deaths are down to Coronavirus compared to nearly 90% of theirs...... And there's the main point if you can trust the data. What national government are going to want to release higher than released figures when they might have elections etc coming up in a year or so? Whether you're top, near the top or even lower down but still really high figures they could still be really high numbers. One thing is for sure, it's one European league table they'd want us to top. Even Blatter and platini would let us have that one ๐
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 13:29:33 GMT
Look at the excess deaths figures for countries worldwide, and look at the percentage of excess deaths been credited to Coronavirus. You can make a fairly sound assumption based on them providing you obviously trust the overall mortality data. In England particularly they make for pretty grim reading. I've seen people questioning the likes of France's data for example, yet 70% of our excess deaths are down to Coronavirus compared to nearly 90% of theirs...... And there's the main point if you can trust the data. What national government are going to want to release higher than released figures when they might have elections etc coming up in a year or so? Whether your top, near the top or even lower down but still really high figures they could still be really high numbers. One thing is for sure, it's one European league table they'd want us to top. Even Blatter and platini would let us have that one ๐ The overall mortality figures are produced by the Office of National Staistics though who are non-ministerial and report directly to parliament. Surely you trust them?
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 13, 2020 13:32:55 GMT
But don't they have their own advisers? Ours stands there next to government every night and speaks for himself or herself and could get thr finger pointed at them. I wouldn't do it if I knew something was definitely not what I'd suggest. I'd say hey don't count me in on this part. I really don't know what more I can say to you, it just isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. The Government will be given a series of suggestions of what is likely to happen if they take certain actions and then the GOVERNMENT will decide on what course of action they're going to take. Whitty and Valance aren't economists, if it was entirely down to them and they only had to worry about keeping as many people alive as possible at all costs, then they'd keep us in lockdown until we get a vaccine wouldn't they? If Johnson didn't have to worry about the economy, he'd do the same but he can't and that's why ultimately the decision can't ever be about entirely following the science, it's far more nuanced than that. Trade offs (how much is a life worth?) will have to be made but the scientists don't make those decisions.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on May 13, 2020 13:44:26 GMT
But they haven't said keep the lockdown in place until there is a vaccine. They've said keep it in place until the test, track and trace protocols are ready, which the government have said will be ready by the end of the month, which in turn would make us timewise, roughly on a par with other countries coming out of lockdown now. Essentially they're suggesting we should have waited another couple of weeks. Well we mostly ARE waiting another couple of weeks, and even then it will not be much. Things are being spun by the media as if there's some sort of big change happening this week. There isn't. People who were already told they could go to work, are again being told they can go to work. We hope to open a tiny bit of the school system - but not for a couple of weeks at least. You can go out alone for longer or meet one other person outside. You can go to a garden centre. Some takeaways who were never supposed to close, are slowly but only partially reopening. Er that's about it. It's not like we've opened the floodgates, and anyone healthy who is still so terrified that they feel the need to hide under a rock until there's a vaccine, can do so, just as long as they don't expect the free money to continue that long. Even then they've got until the end of October! It is not free money,
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Post by roylandstoke on May 13, 2020 13:45:56 GMT
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Post by bathstoke on May 13, 2020 13:47:11 GMT
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Post by The Drunken Communist on May 13, 2020 13:50:31 GMT
By my reckoning today is our first non-bank holiday/Sunday/Monday of under 500 deaths in all settings since March.
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 13, 2020 13:57:09 GMT
But they haven't said keep the lockdown in place until there is a vaccine. They've said keep it in place until the test, track and trace protocols are ready, which the government have said will be ready by the end of the month, which in turn would make us timewise, roughly on a par with other countries coming out of lockdown now. Essentially they're suggesting we should have waited another couple of weeks. Well we mostly ARE waiting another couple of weeks, and even then it will not be much. Things are being spun by the media as if there's some sort of big change happening this week. There isn't. People who were already told they could go to work, are again being told they can go to work. We hope to open a tiny bit of the school system - but not for a couple of weeks at least. You can go out alone for longer or meet one other person outside. You can go to a garden centre. Some takeaways who were never supposed to close, are slowly but only partially reopening. Er that's about it. It's not like we've opened the floodgates, and anyone healthy who is still so terrified that they feel the need to hide under a rock until there's a vaccine, can do so, just as long as they don't expect the free money to continue that long. Even then they've got until the end of October! That is clearly not how the scientists on the alternative SAGE panel view it but hey, that's fine, you disagree with them. I can completely see the logic in what they're saying, we've got the infection rate down, now let's not take any measures to risk it going back up until we've got the test, track and trace protocols in place, or else we run the risk of having wasted all the time and economic hurt, we've had to endure so far and ultimately we could make things even worse for us economically, I get the argument, it makes sense, to me. And to tell you the truth, that's what I thought Hancock's message had been lately, to do that and if I'm guessing, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he still wanted to do. But at the same time, I appreciate that Johnson has got other members of his party turning up the heat on him to go sooner on the economy and they're probably disappointed that Johnson actually hasn't gone far enough with the measures he announced at the beginning of the week. Ultimately Johnson has probably had to come down somewhere in the middle, I get that and I sincerely hope that he hasn't got it wrong and that the alternative SAGE panel are being too cautious. Let's really hope so.
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Post by stokeson on May 13, 2020 14:03:42 GMT
Ok Boris Baffers.Has Boris "Got Covid19 Done." cause ive just been out and theres people everywhere (not social distancing.) behaving like its a normal Wednesday.Roads full ,shops full spreading like theres no tomorrow.( which there wont be for many of them.)
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Post by cheekymatt71 on May 13, 2020 14:06:46 GMT
It's all very well scientists saying we should keep the economy shut down and lock everyone in their houses 24/7 until there's a vaccine. It isn't practical and a balance has to be struck. These same scientists have guaranteed jobs with index linked pensions. Take away their salary and pension and say you can't have it unless we have a functioning economy. You'd soon see their advice change. It's easy for them to condemn everyone except themselves to poverty, destitution and house arrest. You make it sound a bit harsh but that is the reality. It becomes about managing risk and people have a weird concept when it comes to risk that changes over time. Individuals start to balance the risk of catching coronavirus, against the risk of dying from coronavirus, against the risk of losing your job/business and running out of money/food. These are all real concerns. The scientists operate in a black & white world view that there is only a life & death choice related to the pandemic. The truth sadly is a lot more grey.
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Post by sportsman on May 13, 2020 14:26:07 GMT
And there's the main point if you can trust the data. What national government are going to want to release higher than released figures when they might have elections etc coming up in a year or so? Whether your top, near the top or even lower down but still really high figures they could still be really high numbers. One thing is for sure, it's one European league table they'd want us to top. Even Blatter and platini would let us have that one ๐ The overall mortality figures are produced by the Office of National Staistics though who are non-ministerial and report directly to parliament. Surely you trust them? That's my point. If that's our independent figures from our office, have other countries got the same. Still wouldn't trust any figures at the moment though.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on May 13, 2020 14:26:50 GMT
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Post by Scrotnig on May 13, 2020 14:27:24 GMT
It's all very well scientists saying we should keep the economy shut down and lock everyone in their houses 24/7 until there's a vaccine. It isn't practical and a balance has to be struck. These same scientists have guaranteed jobs with index linked pensions. Take away their salary and pension and say you can't have it unless we have a functioning economy. You'd soon see their advice change. It's easy for them to condemn everyone except themselves to poverty, destitution and house arrest. You make it sound a bit harsh but that is the reality. It becomes about managing risk and people have a weird concept when it comes to risk that changes over time. Individuals start to balance the risk of catching coronavirus, against the risk of dying from coronavirus, against the risk of losing your job/business and running out of money/food. These are all real concerns. The scientists operate in a black & white world view that there is only a life & death choice related to the pandemic. The truth sadly is a lot more grey. Itโs a bit like if you go to the doctor (in normal times) with a fairly minor ailment. He says you need two months off work, you say you canโt afford to go that. He might reply, โI know, but medically that is my advice.โ
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Post by xchpotter on May 13, 2020 14:28:03 GMT
But for how much longer can he get away with it? Apparantly Gove, Raab and Hancock have their daggers ready! Who says that Poirot? Iโve seen a couple of posts on here with posters saying words to the effect of Murdoch wants Boris replaced. There didnโt seem to be any tangible evidence or even a link which normally riddles this thread, so Iโm guessing it must be true.๐๐
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 13, 2020 14:28:39 GMT
Thatโs a paper on establishing a rhesus monkey model for Covid infection. Absolutely vital, gives us tools to develop treatment and potentially do infectious challenge studies which is the one of the first steps to understanding length of immunity outside of people getting infected. Monkeys recapitulate many of the hallmarks and infections lasts for a similar time.
This is really important as human infection challenge studies would really take a long time to pass any ethical barriers due to the potential severity of the disease.
Dr Van Doremalen is one of the former members of the Gilbert lab and did a lot of the groundwork for the ChAdOx1 vector now in clinical trials. She did a lot of the safety profiling for it on the MERS virus which catapulted Oxford to the front of the queue.
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