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Post by andystokey on Dec 8, 2020 19:48:11 GMT
As much as I despise this government people like Hancock have had nearly a year of making life and death decisions. Yes the economy has taken a battering but they've put lives above both their ideology and their personal popularity. It's fucking easy to snipe from the sidelines - especially when you're living in a consequence free environment. Watching some old geezers proudly taking the (albeit small) risk to take a vaccine that marks the beginning of the end of the pandemic is an emotional moment for anyone who takes this situation seriously - especially those people having to make decisions on the front line of public policy. Fuck anyone who doesn't get that. There's no point trying mate, some people can't see beyond the tribal political bollocks. Absolutely correct. Last week he told an abject lie after the announcement. The vaccine was a worldwide consortium of scientists and volunteers from a multitude of countries. Developed by an American and German company, one run by the son of a Turkish immigrant, manufactured and distributed in Belgium. Yet the British were responsible thanks to Brexit. "Tribal political bollocks" for sure. đź‘Ť
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Post by Olgrligm on Dec 8, 2020 21:59:11 GMT
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Post by smallthorner on Dec 8, 2020 22:08:04 GMT
As much as I despise this government people like Hancock have had nearly a year of making life and death decisions. Yes the economy has taken a battering but they've put lives above both their ideology and their personal popularity. It's fucking easy to snipe from the sidelines - especially when you're living in a consequence free environment. Watching some old geezers proudly taking the (albeit small) risk to take a vaccine that marks the beginning of the end of the pandemic is an emotional moment for anyone who takes this situation seriously - especially those people having to make decisions on the front line of public policy. Fuck anyone who doesn't get that. There's no point trying mate, some people can't see beyond the tribal political bollocks. I'm not sure it's political actually. For example I'm a raving tory hating middle road lefty.. And I have a degree of sympathy for the goverment. Impossible situation that they have mismanaged fantastically... I think it's very basic. A lot of people want to get on with their lives and have a pint and go to the match with their mates and are not particularly bothered if another 10k of over 70's get bumped off in this cull. Seymour Beaver summed it up yesterday.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 8, 2020 23:44:56 GMT
There's no point trying mate, some people can't see beyond the tribal political bollocks. I'm not sure it's political actually. For example I'm a raving tory hating middle road lefty..And I have a degree of sympathy for the goverment. Impossible situation that they have mismanaged fantastically... I think it's very basic. A lot of people want to get on with their lives and have a pint and go to the match with their mates and are not particularly bothered if another 10k of over 70's get bumped off in this cull.Seymour Beaver summed it up yesterday. And I'm a card carrying member of the Labour Party who has voted Labour all his life and I find what you've written there to be pretty damn offensive. It's far from basic ... this is about destroyed livelihoods, this is about mass unemployment, this is about increased poverty and most importantly, it's about the (mis)proportionality of the response that has led to this.
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Post by Gods on Dec 8, 2020 23:57:16 GMT
There's no point trying mate, some people can't see beyond the tribal political bollocks. I'm not sure it's political actually. For example I'm a raving tory hating middle road lefty.. And I have a degree of sympathy for the goverment. Impossible situation that they have mismanaged fantastically... I think it's very basic. A lot of people want to get on with their lives and have a pint and go to the match with their mates and are not particularly bothered if another 10k of over 70's get bumped off in this cull. Seymour Beaver summed it up yesterday. I'm exactly where you are in the sense of being a centre ground, slightly left of centre liberal. And I have to say while it has been appalingly badly executed costing many lives through locking down at least 3 weeks too late and failing to protect the Care Homes it does seem the Government got the big call right. Pursuing a policy of shielding the vulnerable and trying to supress the virus in the hope/belief a vaccine will come along rather than give in to the herd-immunity-and-devil-take-the-hindmost club was the right one. Did they know a vaccine would come? Many thought it would not.
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Post by greenhoff on Dec 9, 2020 0:05:39 GMT
I'm not sure it's political actually. For example I'm a raving tory hating middle road lefty.. And I have a degree of sympathy for the goverment. Impossible situation that they have mismanaged fantastically... I think it's very basic. A lot of people want to get on with their lives and have a pint and go to the match with their mates and are not particularly bothered if another 10k of over 70's get bumped off in this cull. Seymour Beaver summed it up yesterday. I'm exactly where you are in the sense of being a centre ground, slightly left of centre liberal. And I have to say while it has been appalingly badly executed costing many lives through locking down at least 3 weeks too late and failing to protect the Care Homes it does seem the Government got the big call right. Pursuing a policy of shielding the vulnerable and trying to supress the virus in the hope/belief a vaccine will come along rather than give in to the herd-immunity-and-devil-take-the-hindmost club was the right one. Did they know a vaccine would come? Many thought it would not. Let's wait and see what next year brings shall we? When the whole effect of Government policy will takes its terrible toll. I honestly think the worst is yet to come. It wont just be the most vulnerable to succumb it will be fit and healthy folk of all ages.
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Post by starkiller on Dec 9, 2020 5:53:03 GMT
Yes I do understand that. And it's the same response in the body as those who were asymptomatic and not ill. They also had less virus circulating. But they were accused of spreading an illness for months. So will the same accusation now be made against those who have taken a vaccine? Those pushing the propaganda seems to want to have it all ways when it suits their agenda. If you take a deep breath from your uncontrollabe rage and trying to jump on anything to castigate me as 'a dangerous lunatic', you'll find I said nothing particularly controversial. Only what has been widely stated. And will MI5 be after Dr Fauci for saying the same thing. I'm sure his reach is slightly greater than mine? finance.yahoo.com/news/fauci-vaccines-will-only-prevent-symptoms-not-block-the-virus-195051568.htmlFor me, none of it would be an issue, if the arguments weren't twisted in favour of funnelling us all towards taking an unknown vaccine which for the vast majority is unnecessary, and towards an ID used to sideline none-takers from society. Let folk be happy to take it, and conversely not marginalise those who have good reason not to want it. Fauci is saying that the phase 3 tests only confirm a vaccine's effectiveness in reducing symptoms - which is correct. He is also saying that no vaccine is 100% effective and that the primary aim of the initial vaccination programme is to prevent vulnerable people from getting ill and dying - which is also correct. What he is not saying is that the vaccine ONLY addresses the symptoms. He is not saying that the vaccines do not have a role in a wider vaccination programme in order to promote herd immunity. He is saying this is the SECONDARY aim - not something that the current vaccines are incapable of achieving. You are either deliberately misrepresenting what is being said about the vaccines or genuinely don't understand what is being said. I absolutely get some people may be genuinely afraid of taking the vaccine and I have every sympathy. However I have no sympathy whatsoever with those, like yourself, whose objections to taking the vaccine is based on a political ideology that thrives on misrepresenting the medical facts especially when they proactively peddle their half truths as a basis for others to join them in their lemming like behaviour. The reason I am angry is because your views, if taken seriously, WILL result in unnecessary deaths. And some people - god help them - will choose to believe you. What you choose to believe is one thing - but when your beliefs spill over into persuading others to follow your lead - which is what you are doing here - you have moved from being harmless into being potentially harmful to others. You are peddling half truths in order to promote your political ideology and you genuinely couldn't care less about the consequences of your actions. I guess we have more 'misrepresention' for MI5 to investigate. These are the words of mine you took issue with. I said nothing controversial or different, I only explored the ramifications in relation to the covid pass in light of this information. As this was highlighted by Bojan. This vaccine doesn't stop anyone catching or spreading anything. It's supposed reduce symptoms only. So whether you take it or not, it makes no difference to accusations of being 'selfish spreader'. And I'll stand by my subsequent posts. I'm happy for those who want it to get it, but don't put societal restrictions on the rest of us, because there is no justification for this.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 9, 2020 6:37:59 GMT
Fauci is saying that the phase 3 tests only confirm a vaccine's effectiveness in reducing symptoms - which is correct. He is also saying that no vaccine is 100% effective and that the primary aim of the initial vaccination programme is to prevent vulnerable people from getting ill and dying - which is also correct. What he is not saying is that the vaccine ONLY addresses the symptoms. He is not saying that the vaccines do not have a role in a wider vaccination programme in order to promote herd immunity. He is saying this is the SECONDARY aim - not something that the current vaccines are incapable of achieving. You are either deliberately misrepresenting what is being said about the vaccines or genuinely don't understand what is being said. I absolutely get some people may be genuinely afraid of taking the vaccine and I have every sympathy. However I have no sympathy whatsoever with those, like yourself, whose objections to taking the vaccine is based on a political ideology that thrives on misrepresenting the medical facts especially when they proactively peddle their half truths as a basis for others to join them in their lemming like behaviour. The reason I am angry is because your views, if taken seriously, WILL result in unnecessary deaths. And some people - god help them - will choose to believe you. What you choose to believe is one thing - but when your beliefs spill over into persuading others to follow your lead - which is what you are doing here - you have moved from being harmless into being potentially harmful to others. You are peddling half truths in order to promote your political ideology and you genuinely couldn't care less about the consequences of your actions. I guess we have more 'misrepresention' for MI5 to investigate. These are the words of mine you took issue with. I said nothing controversial or different, I only explored the ramifications in relation to the referred to covid pass in light of this information. This vaccine doesn't stop anyone catching or spreading anything. It's supposed reduce symptoms only. So whether you take it or not, it makes no difference to accusations of being 'selfish spreader'. And I'll stand by my subsequent posts. I'm happy for those who want it to get it, but don't put societal restrictions on the rest of us, because there is no justification for this. So the flu jab lessens the impact of flu on the “at risk” population, it stops the NHS from being overwhelmed but doesn’t kill the virus The covid vaccine does exactly the same thing. So as long as the “at risk” population has the vaccine there is no reason why we cannot have our lives back ASAP
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 9, 2020 6:58:37 GMT
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Post by StaffordPotter on Dec 9, 2020 7:38:44 GMT
And the Oscar for best supporting actor goes to... I nearly burst my bladder this morning he was even less convincing than his golden globe for his step, step grandfather. What a fucking weapon.
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 9, 2020 7:53:26 GMT
I guess we have more 'misrepresention' for MI5 to investigate. These are the words of mine you took issue with. I said nothing controversial or different, I only explored the ramifications in relation to the referred to covid pass in light of this information. And I'll stand by my subsequent posts. I'm happy for those who want it to get it, but don't put societal restrictions on the rest of us, because there is no justification for this. So the flu jab lessens the impact of flu on the “at risk” population, it stops the NHS from being overwhelmed but doesn’t kill the virus The covid vaccine does exactly the same thing. So as long as the “at risk” population has the vaccine there is no reason why we cannot have our lives back ASAP This is such an important point. As the virus is nothing more than an inconvenience for the vast majority of folk all we need to do to allow a return to normal is to vaccinate the folk at risk. If they are protected, I don’t see how the virus provides much of a threat to anyone else.
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Post by stokienorthants on Dec 9, 2020 8:22:54 GMT
There's no point trying mate, some people can't see beyond the tribal political bollocks. Absolutely correct. Last week he told an abject lie after the announcement. The vaccine was a worldwide consortium of scientists and volunteers from a multitude of countries. Developed by an American and German company, one run by the son of a Turkish immigrant, manufactured and distributed in Belgium. Yet the British were responsible thanks to Brexit. "Tribal political bollocks" for sure. 👍 You just don’t get it do you? The point being made was that due to us not being in Brexit we were able to independently approve the vaccine and start vaccinating before any other country in the world. Congratulations on perpetuating the TPB.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 9, 2020 8:24:48 GMT
So the flu jab lessens the impact of flu on the “at risk” population, it stops the NHS from being overwhelmed but doesn’t kill the virus The covid vaccine does exactly the same thing. So as long as the “at risk” population has the vaccine there is no reason why we cannot have our lives back ASAP This is such an important point. As the virus is nothing more than an inconvenience for the vast majority of folk all we need to do to allow a return to normal is to vaccinate the folk at risk. If they are protected, I don’t see how the virus provides much of a threat to anyone else. No more than flu and other virus’
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Post by Davef on Dec 9, 2020 8:49:06 GMT
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Post by andystokey on Dec 9, 2020 9:09:40 GMT
Absolutely correct. Last week he told an abject lie after the announcement. The vaccine was a worldwide consortium of scientists and volunteers from a multitude of countries. Developed by an American and German company, one run by the son of a Turkish immigrant, manufactured and distributed in Belgium. Yet the British were responsible thanks to Brexit. "Tribal political bollocks" for sure. 👍 You just don’t get it do you? The point being made was that due to us not being in Brexit we were able to independently approve the vaccine and start vaccinating before any other country in the world. Congratulations on perpetuating the TPB. I haven't perpetuated anything that the liar did't say. Or his pathetic faux emotion the man is an odious liar. In his own words. "Because of Brexit We have always had this power to approve unilaterally in a pandemic.
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Post by Northy on Dec 9, 2020 9:30:00 GMT
Did you read all the thread, they updated data on the 4th December, the government went on data given to them at the time You don't think it's a scandal that the government are making massive decisions (that effect millions of people's livelihoods) based on dodgy data, it's not like there wasn't plenty of people (on this very thread) calling it out at the time? Yes, but he was having a go at the government, they are only working off the numbers given to them by 'experts'
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Post by Northy on Dec 9, 2020 9:34:36 GMT
Did you read all the thread, they updated data on the 4th December, the government went on data given to them at the time Who are we defending, the ONS or the Government because they are essentially the same institution? To base such a monumental decision on flawed data is scandalous and unforgivable imo. Edit: and least we forget we (via the PM) were bumped into it by a leak that we still don't know how, who or the motivation. The ONS are supposedly an independent group without political bias
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Post by starkiller on Dec 9, 2020 9:40:06 GMT
I guess we have more 'misrepresention' for MI5 to investigate. These are the words of mine you took issue with. I said nothing controversial or different, I only explored the ramifications in relation to the referred to covid pass in light of this information. And I'll stand by my subsequent posts. I'm happy for those who want it to get it, but don't put societal restrictions on the rest of us, because there is no justification for this. So the flu jab lessens the impact of flu on the “at risk” population, it stops the NHS from being overwhelmed but doesn’t kill the virus The covid vaccine does exactly the same thing. So as long as the “at risk” population has the vaccine there is no reason why we cannot have our lives back ASAP No wonder people are suspicious about there being a greater agenda to make sure there isn't a return to normal. In the deliberately narrow view presented to us in the media, as the sycophant and hopeless journalists bowl softball questions, the given narrative is left unchallenged. And another yet elephant in the room is allowed to wander around freely. And so we continue to be 'nudged' by the 'Nudge Unit' in a certain direction towards compulsory vaccinations and dystopian ID passes that will be required for a semblance of the natural freedoms that were removed from us. And it's all for something that is no real threat for the vast and overwhelming majority. The past few months have been a psychological attack of immense proportions, that people too easily underestimate. And you can witness the evidence of this when those who dismiss those who ponder it are castigated using the same tried and tested methods proposed by the Behavioural Insights Team. And, judging by yesterday, they've clearly decided to go with the use of cheap jingoism to promote this jab in the British psyche. I did post an image of abuse signs. Some of these are too close to how we've been manipulated. I don't need this jab, and don't want it. And I offer no benefit to society by taking it, or pose any threat to society by refusing it. And if I have to be coerced by being threatened and blackmailed with my own natural freedoms then immediately we're into the realms of control and tyranny, not health.
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Post by adri2008 on Dec 9, 2020 9:41:28 GMT
So the flu jab lessens the impact of flu on the “at risk” population, it stops the NHS from being overwhelmed but doesn’t kill the virus The covid vaccine does exactly the same thing. So as long as the “at risk” population has the vaccine there is no reason why we cannot have our lives back ASAP This is such an important point. As the virus is nothing more than an inconvenience for the vast majority of folk all we need to do to allow a return to normal is to vaccinate the folk at risk. If they are protected, I don’t see how the virus provides much of a threat to anyone else. This is what I don't understand - why the rush to vaccinate the entire population when its obviously not necessary? The government weren't concerned when the virus was running loose in the student populations in September, they only worried and started to put restrictions in once it became clear it was moving into the over 60s demographic. Also with something so new, seems stupid if not dangerous to expose more people than is necessary. If there is a tiny percentage of people who suffer serious medium/long term side effects, by vaccinating the entire country, that number might not be so tiny.
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Post by andystokey on Dec 9, 2020 9:55:03 GMT
Who are we defending, the ONS or the Government because they are essentially the same institution? To base such a monumental decision on flawed data is scandalous and unforgivable imo. Edit: and least we forget we (via the PM) were bumped into it by a leak that we still don't know how, who or the motivation. The ONS are supposedly an independent group without political bias There are plenty of data sources out in the world contradicting the doubling claim including the Zoe app with real people data, proven to be accurate and faster reporting than ONS. The ONS either made a monumental error on the data which is scandalous and unforgivable OR The government scientists didn't understand or ignored the inbuilt errors on recording which are well publicised OR The government ministers involved wanted to go into Lockdown 2 quickly without checking which is scandalous and unforgivable. Let's not forget the hastily arranged presser wedged between (then after) the rugby that weekend. The leak on Friday which indicated every measure we were to be subjected to, the PM clearly unhappy with the fait accompli. The charts proving this was the right decision which have been proved wrong by orders of magnitude. Both the government and the ONS are public bodies paid for with taxpayers money. They would have been wise to be sure before they used such powers. They could have waited, checked data, remodelled had a critical review. Or has something like lockdown become so routine and acceptable that we can subject people to it on a hunch?
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Post by bgreen13 on Dec 9, 2020 9:59:52 GMT
So apparently you shouldn't take the vaccine if you have 'severe allergic reactions' as two people have already been affected.
Yeah, it's been trailed really well...
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Post by BraveSirRobin on Dec 9, 2020 10:04:33 GMT
So apparently you shouldn't take the vaccine if you have 'severe allergic reactions' as two people have already been affected. Yeah, it's been trailed really well... You know there are going to be people who are allergic to it? It isn't news but hey ho.
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Post by bgreen13 on Dec 9, 2020 10:06:11 GMT
So apparently you shouldn't take the vaccine if you have 'severe allergic reactions' as two people have already been affected. Yeah, it's been trailed really well... You know there are going to be people who are allergic to it? It isn't news but hey ho. They obviously didn't.
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Post by BraveSirRobin on Dec 9, 2020 10:13:04 GMT
You know there are going to be people who are allergic to it? It isn't news but hey ho. They obviously didn't. How does anybody know if anyone gets an allergic reaction to a new vaccine until somebody gets one?
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Dec 9, 2020 10:15:53 GMT
This is such an important point. As the virus is nothing more than an inconvenience for the vast majority of folk all we need to do to allow a return to normal is to vaccinate the folk at risk. If they are protected, I don’t see how the virus provides much of a threat to anyone else. This is what I don't understand - why the rush to vaccinate the entire population when its obviously not necessary? The government weren't concerned when the virus was running loose in the student populations in September, they only worried and started to put restrictions in once it became clear it was moving into the over 60s demographic. Also with something so new, seems stupid if not dangerous to expose more people than is necessary. If there is a tiny percentage of people who suffer serious medium/long term side effects, by vaccinating the entire country, that number might not be so tiny. Me neither. A point I raised a few weeks back. I have been supportive of restrictions until a vaccine became available for 'at risk' groups in the knowledge that one was likely (but not certain) within a year to 18 months at which point it becomes a manageable seasonal respiratory disease along with others we live along side. However this morning I note that Vallence was wittering that we will need to wear masks next winter even after everyone over 50 has been vaccinated with an apparently 90% effective vaccine. NB most flu vaccines are 60% effective at best.
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Post by bgreen13 on Dec 9, 2020 10:43:04 GMT
How does anybody know if anyone gets an allergic reaction to a new vaccine until somebody gets one? It doesn’t say allergic reaction to the vaccine. It says if you have allergies to other things. Which the ones that have had it had.
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Post by andystokey on Dec 9, 2020 11:09:45 GMT
How does anybody know if anyone gets an allergic reaction to a new vaccine until somebody gets one? It doesn’t say allergic reaction to the vaccine. It says if you have allergies to other things. Which the ones that have had it had. I had to fight tooth and nail to prove my son's allergic status as a child to avoid the routine vaccination other than in a hospital setting. He has to carry an epipen for various things but the GP was insistent it was safe. It was only because of his previous conditions that we personally researched the side effects. When we finally were referred to hospital because we refused they then did a skin test and he reacted immediately. The specialist said that anaphylactic shock was likely if it was taken. In the end they had to use a different jab not produced in the same way and sit in hospital for the day to be monitored. These reactions are well documented and I'm surprised the two health care workers were not warned. The new advice quoted by MHRA this morning says: "Resuscitation facilities should be available at all times for all vaccinations. Vaccination should only be carried out in facilities where resuscitation measures are available." That's going to change the logistics of the vaccination roll out until this is cleared up. Around 300,000 people in the UK currently need to carry an epipen in case of anaphylaxis.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 9, 2020 11:15:35 GMT
You don't think it's a scandal that the government are making massive decisions (that effect millions of people's livelihoods) based on dodgy data, it's not like there wasn't plenty of people (on this very thread) calling it out at the time? Yes, but he was having a go at the government, they are only working off the numbers given to them by 'experts' That’s not an issue excuse If the data they are being provided with proves to be consistently incorrect there is an obligation on them to challenge it and be more rigorous in their assessment of it
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 9, 2020 11:18:39 GMT
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Post by andystokey on Dec 9, 2020 11:24:04 GMT
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