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Post by hcstokie on Nov 30, 2020 20:19:54 GMT
There’s a difference between someone who’s chosen to get pissed up compared to someone who chooses not to have a vaccine based on their personal beliefs. There’s no difference between someone refusing to have a jab for COVID compared to someone choosing not to be vaccinated for any other disease. If everyone else on the flight has been vaccinated then what’s the issue? The only real material risk is someone passing it on to other people who’ve refused a vaccine and that’s obviously a risk they’re willing to take. I’ll be having the jab as soon as it’s offered but people shouldn’t be refused access to services / privileges if they’ve refused it. People need to assess risk and act accordingly. I flew in September and felt safe. I’d feel even safer knowing I’d had a jab, but you can’t control everyone and expect everyone to think and act the same. That's not quite true if vaccines are circa 90% effective is it? Lots of countries require certain vaccines in order to visit today. I understand that but if 90% of people on a flight were protected and the survival rate of COVID is 99% you’d have to be bloody unlucky to contract it and die from it. That’s also doesn’t take into account that if there are widespread vaccinations then the numbers of people contracting and carrying the virus will be reduced significantly anyway. |
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Post by chigstoke on Nov 30, 2020 20:22:12 GMT
I have a feeling places and the Gov will be in for a nasty shock at the amount who will outright refuse to be part of an immunity ID system. |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 30, 2020 20:22:46 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 30, 2020 20:30:52 GMT
The timing of this wave suggests that children/students going back were the trigger (and that the virus is predominantly seasonal) and its this link which has spread the disease through out households. Whilst this link is open, you could argue that the lock downs did/do bugger all/little to suppress the virus and it simply ran through the young until enough immunity was there for transmission to fall. Meanwhile the hospitality sector has been hung out to dry like some sort of sacrificial lamb. That simply isn't true. No age group is anywhere near herd immunity and anyway age related herd immunity isn't a thing if generations mix - which they will because any form of age apartheid would be impossible to implement. The original tier 2 restrictions didn't bring transmissions under control - tier 3 and the recent national restrictions did. The government have tightened up the rules for the new tier 2 because this is the evidence was that the original tier 2 was just a conveyor belt into tier 3.Every country in the world that has implemented a a sufficiently stringent lock down have seen infections and deaths fall and when restrictions have loosened infections and deaths have gone up in subject to the underlying seasonal variation. There are certainly other problems associated with lock downs but to argue they don't work is nonsense - providing the rules are strict enough. In many principal cities in the country their cases were already significantly reducing before they even got into tier 2. London saw no significant rise before entering or after entering tier 2. You are absolutely right however, to point out the importance of the seasonality of the virus and yes restrictions will accelerate the natural rise and (most importantly) the decline of the virus but I've yet to see the data that demonstrates by how much it accelerates the decline and any analysis that compares that acceleration against the economic affect placed upon the country as a result of the restrictions.       |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 30, 2020 20:35:21 GMT
Gutless bastards You are either for or against |
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Post by starkiller on Nov 30, 2020 20:35:58 GMT
As I said in my previous post, this absolutely confirms the agenda is about controlling people, nothing to do with a virus. |
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Post by duckling on Nov 30, 2020 20:43:13 GMT
What really doesn’t sit well with me is the suggestion that eating, drinking and shopping establishments may ask people to disclose their medical history prior to admission. Would it be an issue if you didn't broach it by trying to get in? If a football game requires proof of vaccination, unless you tried to buy a ticket (and why would you if you knew the requirement), the football club wouldn't know about your vaccination status. |
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Nov 30, 2020 20:59:00 GMT
Oh Christ, not you an'all. Starkiller needs a sticker, would you like permission to where your best Bacofoil hat whilst you have yours? |
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Post by andystokey on Nov 30, 2020 21:00:18 GMT
Oh Christ, not you an'all. Starkiller needs a sticker, would you like permission to where your best Bacofoil hat whilst you have yours? Don't you believe the ministers own words then? |
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Post by hcstokie on Nov 30, 2020 21:01:27 GMT
What really doesn’t sit well with me is the suggestion that eating, drinking and shopping establishments may ask people to disclose their medical history prior to admission. Would it be an issue if you didn't broach it by trying to get in? If a football game requires proof of vaccination, unless you tried to buy a ticket (and why would you if you knew the requirement), the football club wouldn't know about your vaccination status. Where does it end though mate? The original tweet referenced restaurants, bars, etc. Shall we all log onto a website, agree to some T&Cs and dig our medical records out before going for a quick pint? I’m sorry but there isn’t a proportionate justification for that level of restriction in a world where the majority of the population have been vaccinated, especially if some people can’t have the vaccine due to medical reasons. You cannot put people’s lives on hold until they comply, especially if some physically can’t due to valid reasons. There will always be an element of risk with this in the same way that there is with all other viruses. We need to use some sense and respond proportionately to it, not introduce more restrictions once vaccines are rolled out. If there is genuine concern over people refusing the vaccine then the government should make an effort to educate people about the subject and let them make an informed decision, not propose more restriction bollocks. By the way, I’m not a tin foil hat wearer and have been sensible throughout lockdown. I do however value proportionality and people’s rights under the law. |
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Post by chad on Nov 30, 2020 21:03:22 GMT
Oh Christ, not you an'all. Starkiller needs a sticker, would you like permission to where your best Bacofoil hat whilst you have yours? Don't you believe the ministers own words then? Since when would a vaccination certificate be described as an ID card Just more hysterical over reactions |
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Post by henry on Nov 30, 2020 21:04:55 GMT
They are not even trying to hide their agenda. Highly predictable and highly likely to be implemented. |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 30, 2020 21:05:21 GMT
It seems strange to me that some people get very upset with our Westminster MPs' decisions, MPs we have voted in and can vote out, like the Stoke and Newcastle MPs, but are quite prepared to have Brussels make all the decisions in years to come.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 30, 2020 21:06:47 GMT
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Post by duckling on Nov 30, 2020 21:07:34 GMT
I’m sorry but there isn’t a proportionate justification for that level of restriction in a world where the majority of the population have been vaccinated, especially if some people can’t have the vaccine due to medical reasons. You cannot put people’s lives on hold until they comply, especially if some physically can’t due to valid reasons. I'm sure people with valid medical contradictions will get documentation of medical exemption. It's interesting that there is a large overlap between people who complain loudly about the restrictions and people who are opposed to the vaccine, i.e., the most effective way to get the restrictions lifted while protecting the old and sick. |
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Post by chigstoke on Nov 30, 2020 21:10:29 GMT
RE the mRNA etc...
Other vaccines I believe are also being developed using the more traditional methods of vaccination creation.
If the end game was to 'alter our DNA' in a evil masterplan, why not use mRNA on all vaccines?
Still can't fathom the immunity ID thing from the DM earlier. It's just not going to wash. And I certainly do not trust our government one iota.
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Post by andystokey on Nov 30, 2020 21:10:46 GMT
Don't you believe the ministers own words then? Since when would a vaccination certificate be described as an ID card Just more hysterical over reactions Well I assume it will need a name or a photo like those over 18 cards else I'll just borrow someone else's. from that article: I have to show it to travel. I have to show it or declare it to get a cinema ticket, a football ticket. I assume I will be logged via an app as described by the minister. When I go into a pub they'll scan it. If they don't do any of that then we can all just photocopy one. Of course its a fucking ID card. |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 30, 2020 21:14:09 GMT
It is quite clear to me Labour are sitting on the fence because they don't want to upset either side of the argument. The consequence is they end up losing support from both sides, as they did over their ambivalence in the GE on Brexit. Starmer has changed colour on Brexit (I think?) but is now fudging it on the lockdown debate. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 30, 2020 21:14:52 GMT
If there isn't adequate voluntary vaccination to stop the spread, then yes, I think some degree of mandatory vaccination in the general population will be needed to go anywhere without restrictions. I think anyone with direct contact with vulnerable people, such as healthcare and care home workers, should be subject to mandatory vaccination unless they are exempted for medical reasons. In terms of the rest of the population, I hope it doesn't come to that, but I wouldn't be opposed to mandatory vaccination. If people were as resistant to the polio vaccine as they are to vaccines today, we would still be dealing with polio outbreaks. By the way, polio killed FAR fewer people per year compared with Covid. In the United States, the most polio deaths in a single year was around 6000. I could be wrong but after the impact on our lives this year I believe that people will be queuing up for the vaccine. I’ll be in line as soon as it’s offered. I’d hope that the people refusing to have it will be few and far between. Mandatory vaccination doesn’t sit well with me as it should be optional. What really doesn’t sit well with me is the suggestion that eating, drinking and shopping establishments may ask people to disclose their medical history prior to admission. Being married to somebody who is in the highest at risk category and since March has only had any social contact due to three hospital appointments, the vaccine can't come quickly enough. Given the opportunity we'd both be at the front of the queue, sleeves rolled up and have always had all our vaccines our entire lives and we'd always encourage others to do the same. But actually FORCING people to have a needle put in their arm against their consent, is, for me, one of the most abhorrent actions a state could perform upon it's people. And then creating some sort of health passport on the back of that vaccination is just hideous and is something I would resist at all costs. |
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Post by chad on Nov 30, 2020 21:15:55 GMT
Since when would a vaccination certificate be described as an ID card Just more hysterical over reactions Well I assume it will need a name or a photo like those over 18 cards else I'll just borrow someone else's. from that article: I have to show it to travel. I have to show it or declare it to get a cinema ticket, a football ticket. I assume I will be logged via an app as described by the minister. When I go into a pub they'll scan it. If they don't do any of that then we can all just photocopy one. Of course its a fucking ID card. Do you object to a passport Get a grip man |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Nov 30, 2020 21:18:02 GMT
It is quite clear to me Labour are sitting on the fence because they don't want to upset either side of the argument. The consequence is they end up losing support from both sides, as they did over their ambivalence in the GE on Brexit. Starmer has changed colour on Brexit (I think?) but is now fudging it on the lockdown debate. Labour as usual holding working people with utter contempt. They are a disgrace. As is Boris and the vast majority of his mps. My god if there was ever a call for a new political party then its now. |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 30, 2020 21:19:40 GMT
Well I assume it will need a name or a photo like those over 18 cards else I'll just borrow someone else's. from that article: I have to show it to travel. I have to show it or declare it to get a cinema ticket, a football ticket. I assume I will be logged via an app as described by the minister. When I go into a pub they'll scan it. If they don't do any of that then we can all just photocopy one. Of course its a fucking ID card. Do you object to a passport Get a grip man You do not need your passport for anything other than overseas travel |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Nov 30, 2020 21:21:34 GMT
I could be wrong but after the impact on our lives this year I believe that people will be queuing up for the vaccine. I’ll be in line as soon as it’s offered. I’d hope that the people refusing to have it will be few and far between. Mandatory vaccination doesn’t sit well with me as it should be optional. What really doesn’t sit well with me is the suggestion that eating, drinking and shopping establishments may ask people to disclose their medical history prior to admission. Being married to somebody who is in the highest at risk category and since March has only had any social contact due to three hospital appointments, the vaccine can't come quickly enough. Given the opportunity we'd both be at the front of the queue, sleeves rolled up and have always had all our vaccines our entire lives and we'd always encourage others to do the same. But actually FORCING people to have a needle put in their arm against their consent, is, for me, one of the most abhorrent actions a state could perform upon it's people. Indeed. I think most rational people in time will take it of their own accord. Its the mandating of it that's so disturbing and ties in with all these other absurd totalitarian policies. Right now we seem to be modelling ourselves on Russia, China and North Korea. I just can't quite believe what I'm seeing from this allegedly "Pro economy" government. |
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Post by andystokey on Nov 30, 2020 21:22:43 GMT
Well I assume it will need a name or a photo like those over 18 cards else I'll just borrow someone else's. from that article: I have to show it to travel. I have to show it or declare it to get a cinema ticket, a football ticket. I assume I will be logged via an app as described by the minister. When I go into a pub they'll scan it. If they don't do any of that then we can all just photocopy one. Of course its a fucking ID card. Do you object to a passport Get a grip man To get into a pub or restaurant? Of course I do. I don't even have any need to identify myself going to the police unless I've been arrested so why should I? I won't be the only one, this is more likely to cause a backlash to vaccination in my view than anything else. |
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Nov 30, 2020 21:29:20 GMT
Oh Christ, not you an'all. Starkiller needs a sticker, would you like permission to where your best Bacofoil hat whilst you have yours? Don't you believe the ministers own words then? What is it that scares you so much about taking an injection and providing proof of it so that we can get back to something like normal? |
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Post by chad on Nov 30, 2020 21:29:43 GMT
Do you object to a passport Get a grip man To get into a pub or restaurant? Of course I do. I don't even have any need to identify myself going to the police unless I've been arrested so why should I? I won't be the only one, this is more likely to cause a backlash to vaccination in my view than anything else. It’s a suggestion. It probably won’t happen anyway but frankly I’d rather have to carry a certificate with me than have another year like 2020 But each to his own |
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Nov 30, 2020 21:30:22 GMT
It seems strange to me that some people get very upset with our Westminster MPs' decisions, MPs we have voted in and can vote out, like the Stoke and Newcastle MPs, but are quite prepared to have Brussels make all the decisions in years to come. You do know that we voted them in and out as well right? |
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Post by hcstokie on Nov 30, 2020 21:30:40 GMT
I’m sorry but there isn’t a proportionate justification for that level of restriction in a world where the majority of the population have been vaccinated, especially if some people can’t have the vaccine due to medical reasons. You cannot put people’s lives on hold until they comply, especially if some physically can’t due to valid reasons. I'm sure people with valid medical contradictions will get documentation of medical exemption. It's interesting that there is a large overlap between people who complain loudly about the restrictions and people who are opposed to the vaccine, i.e., the most effective way to get the restrictions lifted while protecting the old and sick. I agree that’s the most effective way to get out of it. The vaccine can’t come soon enough as far as I’m concerned. |
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Post by andystokey on Nov 30, 2020 21:33:14 GMT
Don't you believe the ministers own words then? What is it that scares you so much about taking an injection and providing proof of it so that we can get back to something like normal? I'm not even going to bother, if you think this is acceptable good for you. The craziness surrounding this virus is completely surreal. |
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Nov 30, 2020 21:36:56 GMT
Don't you believe the ministers own words then? Since when would a vaccination certificate be described as an ID card Just more hysterical over reactions When some Professors suggest non removal bracelets! With people like that getting National airtime I don’t think concerns should be fobbed off as hysterical over reactions |
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