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Post by butlerstbob on Nov 25, 2020 15:12:25 GMT
This is disgusting, telling perfectly healthy people to get a test they don’t need which has a chance of returning a false positive which is then added to the numbers of total cases, then meaning yet more misery and restrictions heaped on an area that was struggling long before the economic nuke that Johnson and his dickhead cronies have detonated. On what fucking planet can instructing healthy people to get a test on the whim that they “might” have something be construed as a safety measure? Beyond description. Maybe similar to the mass testing in Liverpool which has seen the cases drop rapidly and probably enable them to come out in a Tier 2 instead of Tier 3. 915 people with no symptoms have had a positive test, this testing is going on alongside people who have symptoms and booked into the system. www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsliverpool/latest-mass-testing-results-in-third-week-of-liverpool-operation/ar-BB1bkKOcSo it is the testing and not the longer lockdown that has seen covid drop in Liverpool?
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Post by riverman on Nov 25, 2020 15:16:52 GMT
I'm not the one dictating they should have time off when they won't get paid. but you are hinting you'd go in as you wouldn't get paid Most companies allow 3 days sick without getting paid. Er yeh. Which could equate to about 300 quid in some cases.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Nov 25, 2020 15:43:47 GMT
“Effectively what this will be doing is throwing fuel on the Covid fire. I think it will definitely lead to increased transmission. It is likely to lead to a third wave of infection, with hospitals being overrun, and more unnecessary deaths,” Prof Andrew Hayward told BBC Two’s Newsnight programme.
“We are still in a country where we have got high levels of infection with Covid, particularly in young people. Bringing them together for hours, let alone days, with elderly relatives, I think, is a recipe for regret for many families. With the vaccine on the way, if we are not very careful over Christmas we are really in danger of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on this one."GuardianThe above is exactly the problem I have with Sage. People take their words as gospel yet they have the luxury of merely focussing on virus suppression and don't have to concern themselves with 'minor' issues like the mental health of the population, economic damage of restrictions and the fact that people are simply going to meet regardless of whether the government allows it or not. I feel the government's approach is reasonable with BoJo, Drakeford etc stating today that although meeting up is allowed, people shouldn't treat it as a free for all and should be taking sensible precautions especially when it comes to elderly relatives. Yes it is likely to cause a rise in cases in January but its unavoidable in my opinion as a sizeable chuck of the population simply wouldn't comply. SAGE's job is to focus on virus suppression and public health matters - it is not their job description to consider matters such as the economy - it is up to the government to balance the advice provided by SAGE against other legitimate matters such as the economy. SAGE do not make decisions - they merely advise the government in accordance with their remit. You're blaming SAGE for doing the job the government has asked them to do.
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Post by adri2008 on Nov 25, 2020 15:48:51 GMT
“Effectively what this will be doing is throwing fuel on the Covid fire. I think it will definitely lead to increased transmission. It is likely to lead to a third wave of infection, with hospitals being overrun, and more unnecessary deaths,” Prof Andrew Hayward told BBC Two’s Newsnight programme.
“We are still in a country where we have got high levels of infection with Covid, particularly in young people. Bringing them together for hours, let alone days, with elderly relatives, I think, is a recipe for regret for many families. With the vaccine on the way, if we are not very careful over Christmas we are really in danger of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on this one."GuardianThe above is exactly the problem I have with Sage. People take their words as gospel yet they have the luxury of merely focussing on virus suppression and don't have to concern themselves with 'minor' issues like the mental health of the population, economic damage of restrictions and the fact that people are simply going to meet regardless of whether the government allows it or not. I feel the government's approach is reasonable with BoJo, Drakeford etc stating today that although meeting up is allowed, people shouldn't treat it as a free for all and should be taking sensible precautions especially when it comes to elderly relatives. Yes it is likely to cause a rise in cases in January but its unavoidable in my opinion as a sizeable chuck of the population simply wouldn't comply. SAGE's job is to focus on virus suppression and public health matters - it is not their job description to consider matters such as the economy - it is up to the government to balance the advice provided by SAGE against other legitimate matters such as the economy. SAGE do not make decisions - they merely advise the government in accordance with their remit. You're blaming SAGE for doing the job the government has asked them to do. Yes but they then consistently 'brief' against the government's decisions which the public then latch on to i.e 'why aren't we following their advice?'. I don't know why members of Sage are speaking to the press at all really
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Nov 25, 2020 15:52:43 GMT
Would you be willing to pay everybody's wages who has to go off after you spread germs about ? I'm not the one dictating they should have time off when they won't get paid. Part of the reason Germany had relatively low death rates from covid has been put down to the fact that Germany has quite generous sick pay and the German's don't go to when when they are unwell - unlike in the UK and even more so in the US. As well as addressing a macho work culture the government has to make better provision for sick pay - one won't happen without the other.
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Post by franklin on Nov 25, 2020 15:53:12 GMT
Has anyone on here paid for a private Covid-19 test and Fit to Fly Cert? If so, how much did it cost? Any recommendations? There are loads advertised ranging from £120-£250 but also need to check turnaround times and whether they are accredited and the test is the right one. I am currently in Europe and plan to return to UK in about 4 weeks time before leaving again in early Jan. I probably need 2 tests. 1 on arrival in the UK if quarantine status has not been lifted and one 3 days before I leave in Jan (unless I go to Estonia or Antigua etc). You still in Germany? If so I'll let you know as my lad is hoping to come home for Christmas and thats something he's looking into as we speak.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 25, 2020 15:55:54 GMT
This is disgusting, telling perfectly healthy people to get a test they don’t need which has a chance of returning a false positive which is then added to the numbers of total cases, then meaning yet more misery and restrictions heaped on an area that was struggling long before the economic nuke that Johnson and his dickhead cronies have detonated. On what fucking planet can instructing healthy people to get a test on the whim that they “might” have something be construed as a safety measure? Beyond description. Maybe similar to the mass testing in Liverpool which has seen the cases drop rapidly and probably enable them to come out in a Tier 2 instead of Tier 3. 915 people with no symptoms have had a positive test, this testing is going on alongside people who have symptoms and booked into the system. www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsliverpool/latest-mass-testing-results-in-third-week-of-liverpool-operation/ar-BB1bkKOcMass testing isn't the reason for cases dropping rapidly in Liverpool.
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Post by tuum on Nov 25, 2020 15:58:07 GMT
Has anyone on here paid for a private Covid-19 test and Fit to Fly Cert? If so, how much did it cost? Any recommendations? There are loads advertised ranging from £120-£250 but also need to check turnaround times and whether they are accredited and the test is the right one. I am currently in Europe and plan to return to UK in about 4 weeks time before leaving again in early Jan. I probably need 2 tests. 1 on arrival in the UK if quarantine status has not been lifted and one 3 days before I leave in Jan (unless I go to Estonia or Antigua etc). You still in Germany? If so I'll let you know as my lad is hoping to come home for Christmas and thats something he's looking into as we speak. Currently in Italy but will be flying back through Frankfurt. Will probably go back out to Germany in Jan for a few months and apply for entry to Thailand through Thai Embassy in Berlin. That's the current plan but it may change in Dec when UK and Italy finalize their new conditions when their respective lockdowns end.
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Post by franklin on Nov 25, 2020 15:59:38 GMT
You still in Germany? If so I'll let you know as my lad is hoping to come home for Christmas and thats something he's looking into as we speak. Currently in Italy but will be flying back through Frankfurt. Will probably go back out to Germany in Jan for a few months and apply for entry to Thailand through Thai Embassy in Berlin. That's the current plan but it may change in Dec when UK and Italy finalize their new conditions when their respective lockdowns end. OK if I find out anything of note I'll let you know.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 25, 2020 15:59:44 GMT
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Post by Northy on Nov 25, 2020 16:11:17 GMT
So it is the testing and not the longer lockdown that has seen covid drop in Liverpool? well if it's picked up nearly 1000 asymptomatic cases, then that would stop it spreading further and keeping the numbers high, possibly a combination of both.
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Post by Veritas on Nov 25, 2020 16:18:56 GMT
So it is the testing and not the longer lockdown that has seen covid drop in Liverpool? well if it's picked up nearly 1000 asymptomatic cases, then that would stop it spreading further and keeping the numbers high, possibly a combination of both. Definitely a combination of both without the lockdown those and other untested asymptomatic cases would have been spreading the virus.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2020 16:24:45 GMT
Numbers in Staffs Moorlands significantly dropping. Chance of tier 2?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 25, 2020 16:27:05 GMT
So it is the testing and not the longer lockdown that has seen covid drop in Liverpool? well if it's picked up nearly 1000 asymptomatic cases, then that would stop it spreading further and keeping the numbers high, possibly a combination of both. Keeping the numbers high? Cases had started coming down in Liverpool before even Tier 3 restrictions had been implemented and had collapsed by the time the mass testing began when lockdown 2 started. ![](https://i.ibb.co/BBqfd3v/Enmoj-QIXUAAca-u-jpeg.jpg)
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 25, 2020 16:28:53 GMT
Sky News live in Stoke on Trent after the break
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Post by Northy on Nov 25, 2020 16:39:52 GMT
well if it's picked up nearly 1000 asymptomatic cases, then that would stop it spreading further and keeping the numbers high, possibly a combination of both. Keeping the numbers high? Cases had started coming down in Liverpool before even Tier 3 restrictions had been implemented and had collapsed by the time the mass testing began when lockdown 2 started. ![](https://i.ibb.co/BBqfd3v/Enmoj-QIXUAAca-u-jpeg.jpg) Yes, they were very high before. I'm not sure what your graph is, but a month ago the cases were 700 per 100,000 Last week they were 275 cases per 100,000
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Post by Northy on Nov 25, 2020 16:40:35 GMT
Sky News live in Stoke on Trent after the break Just seen Stoke are up to number 2 in the UK charts, it's a bit like a top of the pops countdown.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Nov 25, 2020 16:41:19 GMT
SAGE's job is to focus on virus suppression and public health matters - it is not their job description to consider matters such as the economy - it is up to the government to balance the advice provided by SAGE against other legitimate matters such as the economy. SAGE do not make decisions - they merely advise the government in accordance with their remit. You're blaming SAGE for doing the job the government has asked them to do. Yes but they then consistently 'brief' against the government's decisions which the public then latch on to i.e 'why aren't we following their advice?'. I don't know why members of Sage are speaking to the press at all really They don't brief against the government - they explain the advice they provided which they are perfectly entitled to do. If the government didn't allow SAGE to explain their position they would quite rightly be accused of censorship and trying to hide how they arrived at the decisions they make. In the early days there was a lot of criticism of Cummings sitting in on SAGE meetings because it was felt that it was resulting in their advice being tainted by politics before reaching the government. The whole point of SAGE is to provide independent advice - not advice tainted by matters outside it's remit. You are criticising SAGE for doing the job it should be doing.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 25, 2020 16:42:20 GMT
Sky News live in Stoke on Trent after the break Just seen Stoke are up to number 2 in the UK charts, it's a bit like a top of the pops countdown. As long as the ghost of Saville doesn’t appear somewhere doing the countdown 😄
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Post by butlerstbob on Nov 25, 2020 16:46:35 GMT
So it is the testing and not the longer lockdown that has seen covid drop in Liverpool? well if it's picked up nearly 1000 asymptomatic cases, then that would stop it spreading further and keeping the numbers high, possibly a combination of both. My point is there are only around 3200 people in Cellarhead, which is a very spread out cumunity how on earth is it a hot-spot? And its not as if we are living in each others pockets... I haven't seen any neighbours to speak to in about 4-5 weeks at the least because that's what it's like up here so I will ask again how are these rural villages becoming hotspots? I certainly think there is something not right about this.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 25, 2020 16:48:44 GMT
Keeping the numbers high? Cases had started coming down in Liverpool before even Tier 3 restrictions had been implemented and had collapsed by the time the mass testing began when lockdown 2 started. ![](https://i.ibb.co/BBqfd3v/Enmoj-QIXUAAca-u-jpeg.jpg) Yes, they were very high before. I'm not sure what your graph is, but a month ago the cases were 700 per 100,000 Last week they were 275 cases per 100,000 What do you mean you're not sure what the graph is? It clearly shows that mass testing had nothing to do with getting the high numbers in Liverpool down.
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Post by Davef on Nov 25, 2020 16:50:15 GMT
well if it's picked up nearly 1000 asymptomatic cases, then that would stop it spreading further and keeping the numbers high, possibly a combination of both. Definitely a combination of both without the lockdown those and other untested asymptomatic cases would have been spreading the virus. There have been articles in both The Lancet and Nature over the past few days calling into question the notion of both asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic spread of the virus.
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Post by Northy on Nov 25, 2020 16:51:06 GMT
well if it's picked up nearly 1000 asymptomatic cases, then that would stop it spreading further and keeping the numbers high, possibly a combination of both. My point is there are only around 3200 people in Cellarhead, which is a very spread out cumunity how on earth is it a hot-spot? And its not as if we are living in each others pockets... I haven't seen any neighbours to speak to in about 4-5 weeks at the least because that's what it's like up here so I will ask again how are these rural villages becoming hotspots? I certainly think there is something not right about this. You only have to get a couple of families catching it and that will inflate the numbers. Maybe the postman or milkman spread it around, or a door handle at a local shop ? My uncle and Aunt live on cheddleton heath road, in their 80's, 1 with dementia, hopefully locked away for their safety
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Post by Northy on Nov 25, 2020 16:58:31 GMT
Yes, they were very high before. I'm not sure what your graph is, but a month ago the cases were 700 per 100,000 Last week they were 275 cases per 100,000 What do you mean you're not sure what the graph is? It clearly shows that mass testing had nothing to do with getting the high numbers in Liverpool down. What are the lines, as I said about a month ago, (around the 18th - 20th October) there were 700 per 100,000, and last week it was 275, that doesn't correlate with the graph. I said the testing stopped it keeping the numbers high, you lock away nearly 1000 cases, they aren't going to infect other people who won't infect other people, stopping a rising r rate ?
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Post by Northy on Nov 25, 2020 17:00:08 GMT
Definitely a combination of both without the lockdown those and other untested asymptomatic cases would have been spreading the virus. There have been articles in both The Lancet and Nature over the past few days calling into question the notion of both asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic spread of the virus. Calling into question, is that confirmed proof or just a hazard at a guess ? Is there a peer reviewed paper on it ?
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Post by Davef on Nov 25, 2020 17:03:18 GMT
There have been articles in both The Lancet and Nature over the past few days calling into question the notion of both asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic spread of the virus. Calling into question, is that confirmed proof or just a hazard at a guess ? Is there a peer reviewed paper on it ? The Lancet and Nature publish peer reviewed research.
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Post by jeycov on Nov 25, 2020 17:07:11 GMT
I'm not the one dictating they should have time off when they won't get paid. Part of the reason Germany had relatively low death rates from covid has been put down to the fact that Germany has quite generous sick pay and the German's don't go to when when they are unwell - unlike in the UK and even more so in the US. As well as addressing a macho work culture the government has to make better provision for sick pay - one won't happen without the other. Along with several other European countries, they pay a higher rate of income tax, but also receive a higher level of sick pay The Uk are the 2nd worst!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 25, 2020 17:08:39 GMT
What do you mean you're not sure what the graph is? It clearly shows that mass testing had nothing to do with getting the high numbers in Liverpool down. What are the lines, as I said about a month ago, (around the 18th - 20th October) there were 700 per 100,000, and last week it was 275, that doesn't correlate with the graph. I said the testing stopped it keeping the numbers high, you lock away nearly 1000 cases, they aren't going to infect other people who won't infect other people, stopping a rising r rate ? The lines are the 7 day rolling average for the number of cases. Liverpool's peak was on the 8th of October (virtually) a month before mass testing even began and had fallen dramatically before that point. The R rate wasn't rising, it was going down and as Dave has said above, there are well respected medical journals publishing papers, questioning if asymptomatic 'cases' drive the spread anyway. Maybe this graph is clearer. ![](https://i.ibb.co/wQ8WsWQ/Enmk0-Oc-W4-AQSl-Xr.png) "In all the history of respiratory-borne viruses of any type, asymptomatic transmission has never been the driver of outbreaks. The driver of outbreaks is ALWAYS a symptomatic person."
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Post by Northy on Nov 25, 2020 17:11:26 GMT
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Post by adri2008 on Nov 25, 2020 17:11:45 GMT
Yes but they then consistently 'brief' against the government's decisions which the public then latch on to i.e 'why aren't we following their advice?'. I don't know why members of Sage are speaking to the press at all really They don't brief against the government - they explain the advice they provided which they are perfectly entitled to do. If the government didn't allow SAGE to explain their position they would quite rightly be accused of censorship and trying to hide how they arrived at the decisions they make. In the early days there was a lot of criticism of Cummings sitting in on SAGE meetings because it was felt that it was resulting in their advice being tainted by politics before reaching the government. The whole point of SAGE is to provide independent advice - not advice tainted by matters outside it's remit. You are criticising SAGE for doing the job it should be doing. They give zero acknowledgement to the fact that the government can't simply follow their advice to the letter though without it having consequences. The bloke in question is saying there will unnecessary deaths due to the government's Christmas policy. He doesn't of course mention that there could well be unnecessary deaths (suicides etc) from locking people in their homes over Christmas. If virus suppression is all we had to worry about then this would be very simple indeed. Just shut everything down and keep people at home till the vaccines are ready. Problem solved.
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