teflondel
Youth Player
Plumbing services
Posts: 318
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Post by teflondel on Aug 10, 2020 12:39:50 GMT
That's a very good read, thanks. Some interesting extracts to support and kick the government, interesting to see (and we'd already heard that other countries had done it) France looking after itself again, why did we ever bale them out in World Wars Public Health England, the quango created under David Cameron, had let its stockpiles of PPE and other supplies decline. But it had put in place longstanding emergency priority orders to key suppliers to be able to top these up in the event of a crisis. These plans were duly activated in January, with a priority order for millions of units to a factory in France — well before the crisis hit the UK in full force. The problem was that as the crisis hit, France requisitioned all PPE within its borders, effectively nicking the UK’s reserve to prop up its own. If a league table were drawn up of countries that most failed to contain Covid deaths, the US and the UK would be pretty near the top. Yet both spent huge amounts of money on their pandemic preparedness and flattered themselves that their experts had built the strongest defence. The UK was ranked best in the world for its ability to stage ‘rapid response to and mitigation of the spread of an epidemic’. It was given 92 points out of 100. Six weeks later, the first Covid-19 case was recorded in China and the real test began.Your comment about France "looking after itself again" is beneath you (unless you actually agree with Patel that the French should solve the migrant issue as well). The fall of France was not helped (as you probably know) by the refusal of Churchill to send the last remaining fighter squadrons to defend France - despite a personal promise to do so. You didn't refer to the 2016 pandemic war-gaming exercise which the government reportedly failed. The full report has never been released (despite a FOI request) and is now the subject of legal action. You didn't refer to the "lethal mistake" of not looking after the care homes. I could go on. There was no lethal mistake. 1. Care homes were asked to take patients back from hospital for additional revenue. 2. They had an option to refuse or take them and take responsibility for Covid safety 3. Ppe procurement is the responsibility of the care home where they are privately owned. 4. The homes which put their residents above profit. Locked down early, refused to take risks by having more people in from hospital, risk assessed and brought in what needed to be done to safeguard and procured ppe whatever the cost. And yes this is from first hand knowledge and not from social media or mainstream media.
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Post by maxplonk on Aug 10, 2020 12:52:01 GMT
Your comment about France "looking after itself again" is beneath you (unless you actually agree with Patel that the French should solve the migrant issue as well). The fall of France was not helped (as you probably know) by the refusal of Churchill to send the last remaining fighter squadrons to defend France - despite a personal promise to do so. You didn't refer to the 2016 pandemic war-gaming exercise which the government reportedly failed. The full report has never been released (despite a FOI request) and is now the subject of legal action. You didn't refer to the "lethal mistake" of not looking after the care homes. I could go on. There was no lethal mistake. 1. Care homes were asked to take patients back from hospital for additional revenue. 2. They had an option to refuse or take them and take responsibility for Covid safety 3. Ppe procurement is the responsibility of the care home where they are privately owned. 4. The homes which put their residents above profit. Locked down early, refused to take risks by having more people in from hospital, risk assessed and brought in what needed to be done to safeguard and procured ppe whatever the cost. And yes this is from first hand knowledge and not from social media or mainstream media. I don't mean to discredit your knowledge and experience but, if you don't know if a patient from a hospital has Covid or not, then you don't really have much of a choice do you. Yes you can gamble on an untested patient for extra revenue but if Covid is unwittingly spread in the care home then revenue will soon go down rather quickly?
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 10, 2020 13:04:16 GMT
There was no lethal mistake. 1. Care homes were asked to take patients back from hospital for additional revenue. 2. They had an option to refuse or take them and take responsibility for Covid safety 3. Ppe procurement is the responsibility of the care home where they are privately owned. 4. The homes which put their residents above profit. Locked down early, refused to take risks by having more people in from hospital, risk assessed and brought in what needed to be done to safeguard and procured ppe whatever the cost. And yes this is from first hand knowledge and not from social media or mainstream media. I don't mean to discredit your knowledge and experience but, if you don't know if a patient from a hospital has Covid or not, then you don't really have much of a choice do you. Yes you can gamble on an untested patient for extra revenue but if Covid is unwittingly spread in the care home then revenue will soon go down rather quickly? From my own - albeit limited - experience of care homes - if a resident has to go into hospital for any reason they don't stop paying for their room in the care home whilst they are there (rather like you don't stop paying rent on your flat if you go into hospital for week) - you only stop paying if you move out permanently. Consequently there is no real financial incentive for the care home to take the resident back quickly because they are being paid anyway.
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Post by maxplonk on Aug 10, 2020 14:05:09 GMT
I don't mean to discredit your knowledge and experience but, if you don't know if a patient from a hospital has Covid or not, then you don't really have much of a choice do you. Yes you can gamble on an untested patient for extra revenue but if Covid is unwittingly spread in the care home then revenue will soon go down rather quickly? From my own - albeit limited - experience of care homes - if a resident has to go into hospital for any reason they don't stop paying for their room in the care home whilst they are there (rather like you don't stop paying rent on your flat if you go into hospital for week) - you only stop paying if you move out permanently. Consequently there is no real financial incentive for the care home to take the resident back quickly because they are being paid anyway. I meant the revenue will go down quickly when the care home residents all start popping their clogs because Covid spread through the home.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 10, 2020 14:12:37 GMT
From my own - albeit limited - experience of care homes - if a resident has to go into hospital for any reason they don't stop paying for their room in the care home whilst they are there (rather like you don't stop paying rent on your flat if you go into hospital for week) - you only stop paying if you move out permanently. Consequently there is no real financial incentive for the care home to take the resident back quickly because they are being paid anyway. I meant the revenue will go down quickly when the care home residents all start popping their clogs because Covid spread through the home. It's ok - I know what you meant. Mine was a separate point about there not being a financial incentive to take residents back quickly from hospital. However mine was just personal experience of an elderly relative - maybe not all care homes operate the same way.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 10, 2020 14:13:18 GMT
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Post by skemstokie on Aug 10, 2020 14:38:57 GMT
Pretty piss poor disaster planning to have your contingency in another sovereign country though innit? Stress test question: 'In the event of a global pandemic are international supply chains likely to be disrupted?' "Nah - we'll be fine on that one Sir Humphrey - Next!" In some simplistic point, yes, but the supply chain was with our next door neighbour, a long time ally, it could be here on a train through the tunnel. Lesson learnt is we need to manufacture a lot more here and stop relying on other countries manufacturing for us. If the French had sent P.P.E to the U.K. leaving them short do you not think it possible that it would lead to a public backlash ? if we reverse rolls and we had stock and then sold to another country even with a deal in place which would leave us short would you be happy?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 10, 2020 15:40:21 GMT
I'm sure I remember reading that's what the UK did actually do - export PPE while we were short of it and frontline staff were wearing binliners.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 10, 2020 15:47:14 GMT
I'm sure I remember reading that's what the UK did actually do - export PPE while we were short of it and frontline staff were wearing binliners. In essence - yes. Government was asking ppe suppliers to get in touch and offer their wares. They were doing that but not getting any response*. In the meantime they were getting enquiries from abroad - so on the basis that it appeared to them no-one on the uk wanted their products - they sold them elsewhere. *There might be a caveat in that where there were some items that were actually oversupplied in which case 'fair enough'.
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Post by Northy on Aug 10, 2020 15:59:13 GMT
I'm sure I remember reading that's what the UK did actually do - export PPE while we were short of it and frontline staff were wearing binliners. In essence - yes. Government was asking ppe suppliers to get in touch and offer their wares. They were doing that but not getting any response*. In the meantime they were getting enquiries from abroad - so on the basis that it appeared to them no-one on the uk wanted their products - they sold them elsewhere. *There might be a caveat in that where there were some items that were actually oversupplied in which case 'fair enough'. They sent PPE to China at the start of the crisis
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Post by Northy on Aug 10, 2020 16:00:25 GMT
In some simplistic point, yes, but the supply chain was with our next door neighbour, a long time ally, it could be here on a train through the tunnel. Lesson learnt is we need to manufacture a lot more here and stop relying on other countries manufacturing for us. If the French had sent P.P.E to the U.K. leaving them short do you not think it possible that it would lead to a public backlash ? if we reverse rolls and we had stock and then sold to another country even with a deal in place which would leave us short would you be happy? We sent PPE to China when the crisis started there, seems like we are one of only a few countries that were helping others out.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 10, 2020 16:09:25 GMT
Finally....
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Aug 10, 2020 16:31:05 GMT
If the French had sent P.P.E to the U.K. leaving them short do you not think it possible that it would lead to a public backlash ? if we reverse rolls and we had stock and then sold to another country even with a deal in place which would leave us short would you be happy? We sent PPE to China when the crisis started there, seems like we are one of only a few countries that were helping others out. We were sending it to America too weren't we right, left and centre? I seem to remember it being on the news at the peak of the crisis that UK companies were ready to supply PPE but were completely ignored by the government in favour of their cronies, so started selling abroad.
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Post by salopstick on Aug 10, 2020 16:45:01 GMT
Not entirely true because they were on fixed term contracts which were due to run out in two weeks. They are just not getting extensions.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 10, 2020 16:53:55 GMT
Not entirely true because they were on fixed term contracts which were due to run out in two weeks. They are just not getting extensions. Does that mean Serco are not getting their £300m contract extension then?
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 10, 2020 16:55:12 GMT
In essence - yes. Government was asking ppe suppliers to get in touch and offer their wares. They were doing that but not getting any response*. In the meantime they were getting enquiries from abroad - so on the basis that it appeared to them no-one on the uk wanted their products - they sold them elsewhere. *There might be a caveat in that where there were some items that were actually oversupplied in which case 'fair enough'. They sent PPE to China at the start of the crisis Who's 'they'?
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Post by salopstick on Aug 10, 2020 17:01:17 GMT
Serco are running the walkins
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Aug 10, 2020 17:08:48 GMT
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 10, 2020 17:12:08 GMT
Serco are running the walkins Serco are doing a lot of things but they also employ 10,500 contact tracers under an initial £100m contract with the option to extend by a further £300m (still pending as far as I know).
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Post by Davef on Aug 10, 2020 17:29:21 GMT
699 cases in England today from a record number of pillar 2 tests. Interesting hospital figures. 647 in England, and though Scotland's last three days are listed as N/A, their last total was 262. That seems pretty high compared to England's tally.
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Post by Davef on Aug 10, 2020 18:08:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 18:21:38 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on Aug 10, 2020 18:30:12 GMT
Interesting stuff. Supporting the idea that it isn't a 'novel' virus and that managed herd immunity was the right plan. By the time a vaccine is available many countries could have already achieved it. Edit: and the conspiracy theory is one I could get behind. Big pharma lobby like no other industry and they'll be seeing this as all their Christmases come at once.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 10, 2020 18:43:17 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 10, 2020 18:51:06 GMT
More outsourcing woes.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 10, 2020 19:07:50 GMT
I might be being naive here but if it isn't a novel virus wouldn't it be a relatively straightforward process (in the right lab) to identify the fact for certain? Or has Starkiller been right all along?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 10, 2020 19:17:16 GMT
Interesting stuff. Supporting the idea that it isn't a 'novel' virus and that managed herd immunity was the right plan. By the time a vaccine is available many countries could have already achieved it. Edit: and the conspiracy theory is one I could get behind. Big pharma lobby like no other industry and they'll be seeing this as all their Christmases come at once. Dr Todaro is a physician turned investment manager on the quininine cure bandwagon. The T Cell immunity theory is certainly viable but I would like to see the considered view if the scientific community rather than from someone whose primary aim is to make a fast buck out of the Covid pandemic.
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Post by Timmypotter on Aug 10, 2020 19:47:54 GMT
I might be being naive here but if it isn't a novel virus wouldn't it be a relatively straightforward process (in the right lab) to identify the fact for certain? Or has Starkiller been right all along? It's from the same family of viruses as SARS-COV and the common cold. It's looking likely that younger people who've had a corona virus before (i.e. the majority of people) could have some level of immunity to it because of a T-cell response (I'm saying that as though I know what it means, but I think it basically refers to a part of the immune system that can identify and kill infected cells even if the T Cell wasn't originally created to deal specifically with CV19). As you age your T cell response diminishes, hence CV19 has mainly killed people at or around the age that human beings generally die. This also explains why so many people catch CV19 and have no symptoms.
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Post by Timmypotter on Aug 10, 2020 19:53:39 GMT
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Post by Kewstokie on Aug 10, 2020 20:14:14 GMT
In some simplistic point, yes, but the supply chain was with our next door neighbour, a long time ally, it could be here on a train through the tunnel. Lesson learnt is we need to manufacture a lot more here and stop relying on other countries manufacturing for us. If the French had sent P.P.E to the U.K. leaving them short do you not think it possible that it would lead to a public backlash ? if we reverse rolls and we had stock and then sold to another country even with a deal in place which would leave us short would you be happy? There is already a public backlash against the government over here in France and the chronic shortage of PPE. A frequent byline in news programmes. Unlike Cummings et al though the government did apologise for its errors on PPE & lack of disaster planning amongst other things.
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