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Post by Northy on Jan 8, 2024 11:13:22 GMT
Still quoting stuff with no facts from Twitter I see, it must be true it's from twitter... Not quoting at all, providing a link to an article. Odd that you can't see the difference. It does highlight Fujitsu as being a bit dodgy doesn't it? Not really, it shows how useless the Labour government and it's PFI's were if the arbitrator found in favour of the IT company. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 8, 2024 11:13:44 GMT
Simply highlights the fact that the establishment always have and always will close ranks and look after themselves, whichever "scandal" emerges. And soical media in particular has done much to bring the PO scandal to the fore, over a million signatures now to strip the ex CEO of her CBE. you are correct in part. this is not a labour or tory thing as they both have dirty hands on this affair without the tv program though the social media petition would not have gathered pace if the tv program had been delayed two years then the tories would accuse Starmer of opportunitism Starmer is already in the hands of the establishment, sadly. |
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Post by Northy on Jan 8, 2024 11:17:10 GMT
I think you are barking up the wrong tree there, the arbitrator found the government at fault didn't they, Government asking for lots of changes to the original requirements and then not paying for them. Ok, I think the government decision makers should also be held to account , as should the executives in the post office, but I wonder ( I've not fully looked into it) who , if and when someone in Fujitsu knew that there was something wrong with Horizon .....and did they cover it up.....they did sell something that wasn't fit for purpose.....particularly in light of the experience with the NHS I was replying to your comment about the NHS tweet, not the PO issue. |
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Post by salopstick on Jan 8, 2024 11:27:12 GMT
you are correct in part. this is not a labour or tory thing as they both have dirty hands on this affair without the tv program though the social media petition would not have gathered pace if the tv program had been delayed two years then the tories would accuse Starmer of opportunitism Starmer is already in the hands of the establishment, sadly. my point exactly so all these posts that are critising the tories over this are letting labour off the hook thats the problem with partisan politics we just look to blame those in charge and giver others a free ride. we are all guilty of it the point I'm making is someone at ITV decided to make the program (and let Adam Crozier off the hook) and because of this it has gathered steam. The government of the day are just riding the wave of public opinion. Using this to score political points against Sunak does not solve this problem or the other scandals yet to have the same exposure |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 8, 2024 12:56:06 GMT
Starmer is already in the hands of the establishment, sadly. my point exactly so all these posts that are critising the tories over this are letting labour off the hook thats the problem with partisan politics we just look to blame those in charge and giver others a free ride. we are all guilty of it the point I'm making is someone at ITV decided to make the program (and let Adam Crozier off the hook) and because of this it has gathered steam. The government of the day are just riding the wave of public opinion. Using this to score political points against Sunak does not solve this problem or the other scandals yet to have the same exposure Exactly this. This is not a political issue, it’s an issue of human decency that transcends everything that is being argued by Post office lawyers, Fujitsu, government and opposition parties. It’s disgusting that the Post Office have a team of top lawyers in London fighting each of the 600+ outstanding cases at appeal individually that is costing the tax payer millions. No wonder only 90 have been overturned with just 25 receiving adequate compensation. A mass exoneration is the only fair way imo even if it means the odd sub postmaster that has committed fraud/false accounting gets away with it. A few things have made me ashamed to be British but this tops the lot. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 8, 2024 13:07:22 GMT
my point exactly so all these posts that are critising the tories over this are letting labour off the hook thats the problem with partisan politics we just look to blame those in charge and giver others a free ride. we are all guilty of it the point I'm making is someone at ITV decided to make the program (and let Adam Crozier off the hook) and because of this it has gathered steam. The government of the day are just riding the wave of public opinion. Using this to score political points against Sunak does not solve this problem or the other scandals yet to have the same exposure Exactly this. This is not a political issue, it’s an issue of human decency that transcends everything that is being argued by Post office lawyers, Fujitsu, government and opposition parties. It’s disgusting that the Post Office have a team of top lawyers in London fighting each of the 600+ outstanding cases at appeal individually that is costing the tax payer millions. No wonder only 90 have been overturned with just 25 receiving adequate compensation. A mass exoneration is the only fair way imo even if it means the odd sub postmaster that has committed fraud/false accounting gets away with it. A few things have made me ashamed to be British but this tops the lot. It becomes political when senior government ministers side with Fujitsu and the Post Office surely? |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 8, 2024 13:25:21 GMT
Exactly this. This is not a political issue, it’s an issue of human decency that transcends everything that is being argued by Post office lawyers, Fujitsu, government and opposition parties. It’s disgusting that the Post Office have a team of top lawyers in London fighting each of the 600+ outstanding cases at appeal individually that is costing the tax payer millions. No wonder only 90 have been overturned with just 25 receiving adequate compensation. A mass exoneration is the only fair way imo even if it means the odd sub postmaster that has committed fraud/false accounting gets away with it. A few things have made me ashamed to be British but this tops the lot. It becomes political when senior government ministers side with Fujitsu and the Post Office surely? Yes it does for sure, but it shouldn’t should it?? Thats my point. These ex sub postmaster and mistresses have suffered humiliation, bankruptcy, ill health, family break up, loss of their homes, false imprisonment etc etc. as I said it’s about human decency and doing the right thing to bring a swift end to this by mass exoneration and adequate compensation. Sunak makes me puke saying he is looking at ways of doing this. Don’t look you fucking moron just do it. It may need an act of parliament to do this but so be it. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 8, 2024 13:39:26 GMT
It becomes political when senior government ministers side with Fujitsu and the Post Office surely? Yes it does for sure, but it shouldn’t should it?? Thats my point. These ex sub postmaster and mistresses have suffered humiliation, bankruptcy, ill health, family break up, loss of their homes, false imprisonment etc etc. as I said it’s about human decency and doing the right thing to bring a swift end to this by mass exoneration and adequate compensation. Sunak makes me puke saying he is looking at ways of doing this. Don’t look you fucking moron just do it. It may need an act of parliament to do this but so be it. I understand every single conviction could be quashed/overturned by an act of Parliament. (Lord Falconer) I'm with you - let's get it done. |
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Post by Northy on Jan 8, 2024 13:52:56 GMT
Exactly this. This is not a political issue, it’s an issue of human decency that transcends everything that is being argued by Post office lawyers, Fujitsu, government and opposition parties. It’s disgusting that the Post Office have a team of top lawyers in London fighting each of the 600+ outstanding cases at appeal individually that is costing the tax payer millions. No wonder only 90 have been overturned with just 25 receiving adequate compensation. A mass exoneration is the only fair way imo even if it means the odd sub postmaster that has committed fraud/false accounting gets away with it. A few things have made me ashamed to be British but this tops the lot. It becomes political when senior government ministers side with Fujitsu and the Post Office surely? They haven't sided with them out of being the baddie, they were misled by the Post Office senior team, they are probably guilty of not asking to investigate things further. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 8, 2024 14:20:40 GMT
It becomes political when senior government ministers side with Fujitsu and the Post Office surely? They haven't sided with them out of being the baddie, they were misled by the Post Office senior team, they are probably guilty of not asking to investigate things further. I think that's still to be determined mate. Don't forget that Paula Vennells appeared in the New Year's honours list after she had left the Post Office, as well as being given a role at the Cabinet Office, nevermind her £4 million pay off for stepping down and Fujitsu being awarded further government contacts, since the scandal broke. Who knew what and when, is still very much up in the air but I think it's safe to say, that Sunak and Co. wouldn't give a flying fig about a single post master affected, if it wasn't for the ITV drama. The show has very much grabbed the public consciousness and there's no way the Tories are going to miss the opportunity to grab a few votes in an election year, off the back of it, if they can. |
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Post by salopstick on Jan 8, 2024 14:44:27 GMT
They haven't sided with them out of being the baddie, they were misled by the Post Office senior team, they are probably guilty of not asking to investigate things further. I think that's still to be determined mate. Don't forget that Paula Vennells appeared in the New Year's honours list after she had left the Post Office, as well as being given a role at the Cabinet Office, nevermind her £4 million pay off for stepping down and Fujitsu being awarded further government contacts, since the scandal broke. Who knew what and when, is still very much up in the air but I think it's safe to say, that Sunak and Co. wouldn't give a flying fig about a single post master affected, if it wasn't for the ITV drama. The show has very much grabbed the public consciousness and there's no way the Tories are going to miss the opportunity to grab a few votes in an election year, off the back of it, if they can. have you ever known a political party to not grab opportunities like this when they can. Labour would do it at as well Instead of moaning about tories making political capital out of this we should be on their backs demanding they sort it out. At this moment in time they are doing what governments should have done from the start. As long as the postmasters get their justices i don't care who makes political capital out of it Too much gets lost in the white noise of tory bashing |
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Post by chuffedstokie on Jan 8, 2024 14:50:48 GMT
Fujitsu must be regretting the day they bought out ICL.
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 8, 2024 14:53:34 GMT
Exactly this. This is not a political issue, it’s an issue of human decency that transcends everything that is being argued by Post office lawyers, Fujitsu, government and opposition parties. It’s disgusting that the Post Office have a team of top lawyers in London fighting each of the 600+ outstanding cases at appeal individually that is costing the tax payer millions. No wonder only 90 have been overturned with just 25 receiving adequate compensation. A mass exoneration is the only fair way imo even if it means the odd sub postmaster that has committed fraud/false accounting gets away with it. A few things have made me ashamed to be British but this tops the lot. It becomes political when senior government ministers side with Fujitsu and the Post Office surely? Or when politicians jump on the bandwagon to gain political colateral. |
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Post by Veritas on Jan 8, 2024 15:45:28 GMT
It becomes political when senior government ministers side with Fujitsu and the Post Office surely? Or when politicians jump on the bandwagon to gain political colateral. The Government weren't so keen two years ago when they chose not to act on the recommendations put forward by the Select Committee. |
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Post by spitthedog on Jan 8, 2024 15:48:07 GMT
I think that's still to be determined mate. Don't forget that Paula Vennells appeared in the New Year's honours list after she had left the Post Office, as well as being given a role at the Cabinet Office, nevermind her £4 million pay off for stepping down and Fujitsu being awarded further government contacts, since the scandal broke. Who knew what and when, is still very much up in the air but I think it's safe to say, that Sunak and Co. wouldn't give a flying fig about a single post master affected, if it wasn't for the ITV drama. The show has very much grabbed the public consciousness and there's no way the Tories are going to miss the opportunity to grab a few votes in an election year, off the back of it, if they can. have you ever known a political party to not grab opportunities like this when they can. Labour would do it at as well Instead of moaning about tories making political capital out of this we should be on their backs demanding they sort it out. At this moment in time they are doing what governments should have done from the start. As long as the postmasters get their justices i don't care who makes political capital out of it Too much gets lost in the white noise of tory bashing There have been people on their backs for more than 7 years with some intensive reporting on this with some MPs banging their heads against brick walls. The negligence is appalling. It really is a poor defence of the inactivity of this Government, i.e. claiming anyone else in power would have probably done the same! something of course we will never know. Ultimately they are responsible, only the extent to which they are, is yet to be fully determined. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jan 8, 2024 15:56:22 GMT
Just heard the time limits for compensation payouts runs out in August 2024. Maybe this has been dragged out on purpose? 👀
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Post by cheadlepotter on Jan 8, 2024 15:59:38 GMT
Watching the Toby Jones drama now. Those poor people.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 8, 2024 16:06:29 GMT
I think that's still to be determined mate. Don't forget that Paula Vennells appeared in the New Year's honours list after she had left the Post Office, as well as being given a role at the Cabinet Office, nevermind her £4 million pay off for stepping down and Fujitsu being awarded further government contacts, since the scandal broke. Who knew what and when, is still very much up in the air but I think it's safe to say, that Sunak and Co. wouldn't give a flying fig about a single post master affected, if it wasn't for the ITV drama. The show has very much grabbed the public consciousness and there's no way the Tories are going to miss the opportunity to grab a few votes in an election year, off the back of it, if they can. have you ever known a political party to not grab opportunities like this when they can. Labour would do it at as well Instead of moaning about tories making political capital out of this we should be on their backs demanding they sort it out. At this moment in time they are doing what governments should have done from the start. As long as the postmasters get their justices i don't care who makes political capital out of it Too much gets lost in the white noise of tory bashing Ooh I think you're being a bit touchy there Salop. I was responding to Northy's suggestion that he knew who had sided with who and I said that that was still to be determined. And of course any government would attempt to make capital out of it, it just happens that the Torries are currently the government in power and any suggestion that they're now finally going to get tough after all these years, is because they're doing it for the 'right reasons' is naive poppycock. Nowt to do with Tory bashing (yet), everybody wants justice for the sub-postmasters but that goes far beyond a recognition of their innocence and compensation (which now seems likely) but a full and frank investigation of those people at the top level, even as far as government ministers if needs be (this though I won't hold my breath for). |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 8, 2024 17:40:25 GMT
Ex Post mistress Tracey Felstead got her conviction overturned in 2021 which is obviously good. But now she’s is against a mass exoneration because she says ….. "I think we need to be really careful that we're not just going to go and turn everybody's convictions over just in case you have that one person that has committed a crime and you've just turned over their conviction,"
So Tracey, pleased that you’ve had your conviction overturned, but because there is a risk that one person may be guilty and get away with it you disagree with a mass exoneration ……but in the meantime several hundred innocent people are left in limbo for years as their appeals grind through the courts. I would shut the fuck up if I was you.
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 8, 2024 17:54:57 GMT
Or when politicians jump on the bandwagon to gain political colateral. The Government weren't so keen two years ago when they chose not to act on the recommendations put forward by the Select Committee. You could argue an issue becomes political when the politicians fail to act as well. |
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Post by felonious on Jan 8, 2024 18:10:07 GMT
It becomes political when senior government ministers side with Fujitsu and the Post Office surely? They haven't sided with them out of being the baddie, they were misled by the Post Office senior team, they are probably guilty of not asking to investigate things further. The problem arises when Fujitsu employees are used as expert witnesses for the prosecution whilst having knowledge that it was a faulty system. If they were sent to court without the company knowledge of issues with the system then that would be a much more serious issue for the company. www.computerweekly.com/news/366562072/Undisclosed-document-could-reveal-pressure-on-Fujitsu-expert-witness-in-Post-Office-prosecution |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 8, 2024 18:36:21 GMT
Ex Post mistress Tracey Felstead got her conviction overturned in 2021 which is obviously good. But now she’s is against a mass exoneration because she says ….. "I think we need to be really careful that we're not just going to go and turn everybody's convictions over just in case you have that one person that has committed a crime and you've just turned over their conviction," So Tracey, pleased that you’ve had your conviction overturned, but because there is a risk that one person may be guilty and get away with it you disagree with a mass exoneration ……but in the meantime several hundred innocent people are left in limbo for years as their appeals grind through the courts. I would shut the fuck up if I was you. I'm torn on this. I get where you're coming from about innocent people being still regarded as guilty but in all honesty, I doubt there's a single member of the public who feels that those convictions are still safe and if it was me who had been wronged, I would take comfort from that. And furthermore, waking up one morning to be told my conviction had been overturned due to a mass exoneration, would feel like a pretty hollow result, for me. Every single one of those people, went through very individual and very personal court cases, of nightmare proportions and they deserve to have their appeals treated with exactly the same amount of individuality and everyone of the people responsible for their nightmares, now deserve to find out what it's like to find the boot now on the other foot. Even if it means they are forced to attend multiple appeals processes. |
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Post by felonious on Jan 8, 2024 18:46:25 GMT
Ex Post mistress Tracey Felstead got her conviction overturned in 2021 which is obviously good. But now she’s is against a mass exoneration because she says ….. "I think we need to be really careful that we're not just going to go and turn everybody's convictions over just in case you have that one person that has committed a crime and you've just turned over their conviction," So Tracey, pleased that you’ve had your conviction overturned, but because there is a risk that one person may be guilty and get away with it you disagree with a mass exoneration ……but in the meantime several hundred innocent people are left in limbo for years as their appeals grind through the courts. I would shut the fuck up if I was you. I'm torn on this. I get where you're coming from about innocent people being still regarded as guilty but in all honesty, I doubt there's a single member of the public who feels that those convictions are still safe and if it was me who had been wronged, I would take comfort from that. And furthermore, waking up one morning to be told my conviction had been overturned due to a mass exoneration, would feel like a pretty hollow result, for me. Every single one of those people, went through very individual and very personal court cases, of nightmare proportions and they deserve to have their appeals treated with exactly the same amount of individuality and everyone of the people responsible for their nightmares, now deserve to find out what it's like to find the boot now on the other foot. Even if it means they are forced to attend multiple appeals processes. The problem is you surely have to take account of the state of mind some of these poor people must be in. The BBC article I posted a few days back said that at least one of the new people coming forward was receiving in patient psychiatric care. Many won't want to relive the process. Perhaps there should be an option for those that want their day in court. Finally after the events of the last week no one in the country is not going to believe that a postmaster/postmistress exonerated by a blanket ruling is anything other than completely innocent. It would also allow for them to get on with what is left of their lives immediately. |
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Post by felonious on Jan 8, 2024 19:01:47 GMT
Sir Ed Davey has his say no doubt it'll be light years before government minutes on the subject are given up to the masses....
From the BBC:
We reported earlier that Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey is under fire over his handling of the Post Office scandal - he was postal affairs minister from 2010-12 in the coalition government.
He's since been out speaking to reporters. "I wish I’d know then what we all know now," he says, repeating claims that the Post Office lied "on an industrial scale to me, and other ministers".
The Post Office "lied to victims, to judges, to the public, to me and other postal ministers for over 20 years", he adds. "This is a conspiracy by the Post Office to deceive people."
Davey also weighs in on the debate over former Post Office chief Paula Vennells's CBE, which she was awarded in the same year she stepped down from the role amid anger over the Horizon scandal. "It shouldn't have been given in the first place," he says, before urging the honours committee "to meet to make that decision" to review it.
A Post Office spokesperson has previously said it shares the "aims of the public inquiry to get to the truth of what went wrong in the past and establish accountability".
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 8, 2024 19:11:57 GMT
I'm torn on this. I get where you're coming from about innocent people being still regarded as guilty but in all honesty, I doubt there's a single member of the public who feels that those convictions are still safe and if it was me who had been wronged, I would take comfort from that. And furthermore, waking up one morning to be told my conviction had been overturned due to a mass exoneration, would feel like a pretty hollow result, for me. Every single one of those people, went through very individual and very personal court cases, of nightmare proportions and they deserve to have their appeals treated with exactly the same amount of individuality and everyone of the people responsible for their nightmares, now deserve to find out what it's like to find the boot now on the other foot. Even if it means they are forced to attend multiple appeals processes. The problem is you surely have to take account of the state of mind some of these poor people must be in. The BBC article I posted a few days back said that at least one of the new people coming forward was receiving in patient psychiatric care. Many won't want to relive the process. Perhaps there should be an option for those that want their day in court. Finally after the events of the last week no one in the country is not going to believe that a postmaster/postmistress exonerated by a blanket ruling is anything other than completely innocent. It would also allow for them to get on with what is left of their lives immediately. Practically I don't see how it makes any difference, everybody knows they are innocent already. Anybody under psychiatric care isn't suddenly going to get better due to a mass exoneration. Having said that, who am I to know what an individual wants (or indeed needs)? If somebody is happy to be part of a mass exoneration, then that absolutely should not be denied to them but equally, if somebody wants to have their appeal heard individually, then they too should be afforded that option, regardless of cost or length of time to complete. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 8, 2024 19:31:24 GMT
That's a great link. Let's hope the law goes after and nails everyone of these bastards. |
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Post by salopstick on Jan 8, 2024 20:11:42 GMT
have you ever known a political party to not grab opportunities like this when they can. Labour would do it at as well Instead of moaning about tories making political capital out of this we should be on their backs demanding they sort it out. At this moment in time they are doing what governments should have done from the start. As long as the postmasters get their justices i don't care who makes political capital out of it Too much gets lost in the white noise of tory bashing Ooh I think you're being a bit touchy there Salop. I was responding to Northy's suggestion that he knew who had sided with who and I said that that was still to be determined. And of course any government would attempt to make capital out of it, it just happens that the Torries are currently the government in power and any suggestion that they're now finally going to get tough after all these years, is because they're doing it for the 'right reasons' is naive poppycock. Nowt to do with Tory bashing (yet), everybody wants justice for the sub-postmasters but that goes far beyond a recognition of their innocence and compensation (which now seems likely) but a full and frank investigation of those people at the top level, even as far as government ministers if needs be (this though I won't hold my breath for). I’m not touchy mate. I just think sometimes Tory bashing (which is often justified) gets in the way of sorting out the issue. Some people here there and everywhere seem to prefer the Tory bashing than the issue. The issue then can get lost in the noise. I’d rather justice for the posties before removing the cbe. But last week it was all about removing the cbe. The petition should be for justice. |
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 8, 2024 21:18:25 GMT
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Post by Northy on Jan 8, 2024 21:56:06 GMT
have you ever known a political party to not grab opportunities like this when they can. Labour would do it at as well Instead of moaning about tories making political capital out of this we should be on their backs demanding they sort it out. At this moment in time they are doing what governments should have done from the start. As long as the postmasters get their justices i don't care who makes political capital out of it Too much gets lost in the white noise of tory bashing Ooh I think you're being a bit touchy there Salop. I was responding to Northy's suggestion that he knew who had sided with who and I said that that was still to be determined. And of course any government would attempt to make capital out of it, it just happens that the Torries are currently the government in power and any suggestion that they're now finally going to get tough after all these years, is because they're doing it for the 'right reasons' is naive poppycock. Nowt to do with Tory bashing (yet), everybody wants justice for the sub-postmasters but that goes far beyond a recognition of their innocence and compensation (which now seems likely) but a full and frank investigation of those people at the top level, even as far as government ministers if needs be (this though I won't hold my breath for). I've never said who sided with who, just that ministers accepted what they were told and didn't really go deeper. |
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Post by Northy on Jan 8, 2024 22:06:04 GMT
That's one of many many items the MET and the courts will need to get through to bring those to justice who all lied and covered things up, lawyers going to prison over this will be monumental |
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