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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 23:05:53 GMT
According to my unreliable relative who works for the press association. Mr Hughton turned us down in the international break. Hence Nathon Jones is still with us. The did not want to appoint another Lambert type character. Probably bollocks it usually is.
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Post by stokeykez on Sept 24, 2019 6:04:48 GMT
Good write up on sky about stokes troubles. Good balanced article
For me if you offer hughton enough, he will come
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 24, 2019 6:20:44 GMT
I think he benefits from simply not being Rowett. In a way that is correct, the club threw the cheque book at Rowett and it didn't work and they ended up with a manager who was losing again after a very negative run of unbeaten games and he was clearly falling out with players and spouting off about the fans. Jones has been a gentleman, taken the blame on his shoulders and had little money to work with on signings. The club know they have not backed him with big name signings like Rowett. The club were snubbed by experienced managers when Hughes were sacked and, after Lambert's falure to spark the team, went for Rowett an experienced up and coming manager who knew the Championship. They stand no chance of getting an ex Premier league manager taking over a club at the bottom of the Championship, who is going to put their head in the noose? They are only going to be able to sign another young ambitious manager like Rowett and Jones. If Stoke sack Jones now it will be the 4th sacking in less than 2 years, what young manager is going to join a club that sacks the manager "every 6 months" apart from a chancer who would try is luck. Jones has shown he can manage successfully at the lower level and achieved promotion, the club are going to give him every opportunity to turn it round before calling it a day. Only if Stoke can show they are prepared to give a manager every chance to succeed will another manager be prepared to take the reigns and risk losing his reputation. He has spent over £15m on players including £9m on a fat useless striker, this idea he has spent no money is shit like most of his signings have been.
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Post by serpico on Sept 24, 2019 6:25:54 GMT
Our problems obviously go deeper than just the manager but who else is to blame for on the pitch matters ? Same individuals and systems who were to blame for the failure under Mark Hughes, Paul Lambert and Gary Rowett? The off-pitch affects the on-pitch: it's a football club. He’s signed 12 of his own players, players he identified himself, many of who don’t get n the tarting 11 very regularly.
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Post by scfc75 on Sept 24, 2019 6:26:25 GMT
Hughton being lauded as the saviour here... what if he comes in and has only won 2 of his first 20 games? Do we sack him aswell?
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Post by thevoid on Sept 24, 2019 7:01:17 GMT
I'm sure he'd have bought better players if he could. I'm sure the hundred million negative net spend in the last ten years hasn't helped. Ah well. I think I'll open a pitchfork emporium up outside the ground. I expect we'll be hounding increasingly poor managers out for years to come. Who'd want the job of a lifeguard trying to save a drowning man with lead boots on? Chuck Norris. And he'd do it wearing heavy armour too.
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Post by serpico on Sept 24, 2019 7:04:14 GMT
Hughton being lauded as the saviour here... what if he comes in and has only won 2 of his first 20 games? Do we sack him aswell? Yes.
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Post by thevoid on Sept 24, 2019 7:10:16 GMT
So the best argument for keeping Jones after 3 wins from 30 games is that his hypothetical replacement may lose 10 hypothetical matches.
It's a compelling argument.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 24, 2019 7:20:53 GMT
So the best argument for keeping Jones after 3 wins from 30 games is that his hypothetical replacement may lose 10 hypothetical matches. It's a compelling argument. So the best argument for keeping Rowett is that his hypothetical replacement may only get 3 wins in 30 games? A compelling argument indeed. Shame no-one pointed that out at the time.
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Post by serpico on Sept 24, 2019 7:25:46 GMT
According to my unreliable relative who works for the press association. Mr Hughton turned us down in the international break. Hence Nathon Jones is still with us. The did not want to appoint another Lambert type character. Probably bollocks it usually is. sounds plausible, a lot of the better available managers will probably not want to touch us now, too risky.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2019 8:06:55 GMT
So the best argument for keeping Jones after 3 wins from 30 games is that his hypothetical replacement may lose 10 hypothetical matches. It's a compelling argument. So the best argument for keeping Rowett is that his hypothetical replacement may only get 3 wins in 30 games? A compelling argument indeed. Shame no-one pointed that out at the time. So there’s never a case for sacking a manager because his replacement might turn out to be worse, that’s your central thesis?
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Post by Gob Bluth on Sept 24, 2019 8:18:41 GMT
Solution for me would be to install a Director of Football and to change this somewhat from me repeating myself I'd maybe suggest Darren Fletcher. The role would be designed to unwed us to managers meaning managers don't sign a host of players that aren't right for the club which includes signing players over youth team players or signing players we already have an abundance of. This person would also identify a philosophy and choose a coach that aligns with this.
Fletcher his certain criteria in that he has pedigree and some knowledge of this league.
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Post by thevoid on Sept 24, 2019 8:27:33 GMT
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Post by scfc75 on Sept 24, 2019 8:52:34 GMT
So the best argument for keeping Jones after 3 wins from 30 games is that his hypothetical replacement may lose 10 hypothetical matches. It's a compelling argument. Not making an argument against sacking Jones at all. I just wonder where the madness will stop... do we keep sacking managers every six months until one works out? We’re generally shit at getting rid at the right time and equally as shit at recruiting the right man, so why do we think it’ll work out this time? We’ve got a fucked race car but we keep on replacing the driver and expecting him to win races. We’re then surprised when he comes last, yet we go and do the exact same thing again.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2019 9:09:46 GMT
Solution for me would be to install a Director of Football and to change this somewhat from me repeating myself I'd maybe suggest Darren Fletcher. The role would be designed to unwed us to managers meaning managers don't sign a host of players that aren't right for the club which includes signing players over youth team players or signing players we already have an abundance of. This person would also identify a philosophy and choose a coach that aligns with this. Fletcher his certain criteria in that he has pedigree and some knowledge of this league. His only knowledge of this league is being five years past his sell by date for us isn’t it? I’d rather have someone who’s got a bit of experience in the role.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2019 9:10:45 GMT
So the best argument for keeping Jones after 3 wins from 30 games is that his hypothetical replacement may lose 10 hypothetical matches. It's a compelling argument. Not making an argument against sacking Jones at all. I just wonder where the madness will stop... do we keep sacking managers every six months until one works out? We’re generally shit at getting rid at the right time and equally as shit at recruiting the right man, so why do we think it’ll work out this time? We’ve got a fucked race car but we keep on replacing the driver and expecting him to win races. We’re then surprised when he comes last, yet we go and do the exact same thing again. It’s not helping that the driver keeps making wrong turns though is it? That’s not anybody else’s responsibility.
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Post by slother on Sept 24, 2019 9:14:03 GMT
After 3 (or 4) good managers have failed to arrest this club's slide, we have to look beyond the manager.
I get it. Everyone's hurting. Everyone's sick of the dull grind of it. But are you honestly telling me Nathan Jones has made a bunch of horrendous mistakes? That he's clearly out of his depth? "Blame the manager" "Blame the manager" - it's just a thoughtless reaction. It's a route one solution, as if the only thing standing between Stoke and the sunny uplands is a tactical tweak or 2 or 3 free transfers who turn out to be the next Robert Huth, Rory Delap and Ricardo Fuller. You're dreaming if you think firing Nathan Jones is the answer. Absolutely dreaming.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 9:21:43 GMT
After 3 (or 4) good managers have failed to arrest this club's slide, we have to look beyond the manager. I get it. Everyone's hurting. Everyone's sick of the dull grind of it. But are you honestly telling me Nathan Jones has made a bunch of horrendous mistakes? That he's clearly out of his depth? "Blame the manager" "Blame the manager" - it's just a thoughtless reaction. It's a route one solution, as if the only thing standing between Stoke and the sunny uplands is a tactical tweak or 2 or 3 free transfers who turn out to be the next Robert Huth, Rory Delap and Ricardo Fuller. You're dreaming if you think firing Nathan Jones is the answer. Absolutely dreaming. I'm half with you but.....who were the 2 or 3 good managers? 😉
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 24, 2019 9:30:27 GMT
After 3 (or 4) good managers have failed to arrest this club's slide, we have to look beyond the manager. I get it. Everyone's hurting. Everyone's sick of the dull grind of it. But are you honestly telling me Nathan Jones has made a bunch of horrendous mistakes? That he's clearly out of his depth? "Blame the manager" "Blame the manager" - it's just a thoughtless reaction. It's a route one solution, as if the only thing standing between Stoke and the sunny uplands is a tactical tweak or 2 or 3 free transfers who turn out to be the next Robert Huth, Rory Delap and Ricardo Fuller. You're dreaming if you think firing Nathan Jones is the answer. Absolutely dreaming. So the answer is we stick with a manager who has won 3 out of nearly 30 league games 10% win rate, has brought in 12 of his own players, spent millions on players, ousted Pieters and Bojan and replaced them with an OAP and a perennial walking sick note, chops and changes his team on a regular basis, chops and changes systems on a regular basis, brings in players who do not fit his preferred system, fails to sign a LB at all, signs a pub player as DM, signs a GK who the disappears, promises an athletic, young, hungry team, fast attacking football a team to be proud of, asks to be judged after assembling his own team then plays only three of his own signings, targets promotion pre season and as we are we are second from bottom of the Championship after 8 games with no League win
I now see why you think we should keep Jones, you are barking.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2019 9:38:09 GMT
After 3 (or 4) good managers have failed to arrest this club's slide, we have to look beyond the manager. I get it. Everyone's hurting. Everyone's sick of the dull grind of it. But are you honestly telling me Nathan Jones has made a bunch of horrendous mistakes? That he's clearly out of his depth? "Blame the manager" "Blame the manager" - it's just a thoughtless reaction. It's a route one solution, as if the only thing standing between Stoke and the sunny uplands is a tactical tweak or 2 or 3 free transfers who turn out to be the next Robert Huth, Rory Delap and Ricardo Fuller. You're dreaming if you think firing Nathan Jones is the answer. Absolutely dreaming. He has though hasn’t he? Nobody else failed to sign a proper left back while spending £4m on an average right back we didn’t need. Nobody else panicked and abandoned a system he’d previously eulogised about and then floundered chopping and changing every week. Nobody else was responsible for dropping players after good performances without explanation while underperformers get chance after chance. Nobody else sent a promising young attacking player out on loan to League One. I like Jones and there are problems beyond the manager, but it’s daft to suggest he’s entirely blameless.
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Post by slother on Sept 24, 2019 9:39:27 GMT
After 3 (or 4) good managers have failed to arrest this club's slide, we have to look beyond the manager. I get it. Everyone's hurting. Everyone's sick of the dull grind of it. But are you honestly telling me Nathan Jones has made a bunch of horrendous mistakes? That he's clearly out of his depth? "Blame the manager" "Blame the manager" - it's just a thoughtless reaction. It's a route one solution, as if the only thing standing between Stoke and the sunny uplands is a tactical tweak or 2 or 3 free transfers who turn out to be the next Robert Huth, Rory Delap and Ricardo Fuller. You're dreaming if you think firing Nathan Jones is the answer. Absolutely dreaming. So the answer is we stick with a manager who has won 3 out of nearly 30 league games 10% win rate, has brought in 12 of his own players, spent millions on players, ousted Pieters and Bojan and replaced them with an OAP and a perennial walking sick note, chops and changes his team on a regular basis, chops and changes systems on a regular basis, brings in players who do not fit his preferred system, fails to sign a LB at all, signs a pub player as DM, signs a GK who the disappears, promises an athletic, young, hungry team, fast attacking football a team to be proud of, asks to be judged after assembling his own team then plays only three of his own signings, targets promotion pre season and as we are we are second from bottom of the Championship after 8 games with no League win (bravo)
I now see why you think we should keep Jones, you are barking.
Pieters and Bojan didn't want to be here so they were rightly let go. We do not have the money to sign good players. He has to "target" promotion, of course he does. The money we've wasted will come home to roost. We will be in League 1 before long and it won't be Jones fault. I can't believe Mr Scholes still has a suit and tie let alone a job at Stoke City Football Club. Look at Sunderland. Who would we get to come in now? Even Chris Kamara would decide it's not worth the embarrassment. Chris fucking Kamara.
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Post by FrankButcher on Sept 24, 2019 10:08:54 GMT
So the answer is we stick with a manager who has won 3 out of nearly 30 league games 10% win rate, has brought in 12 of his own players, spent millions on players, ousted Pieters and Bojan and replaced them with an OAP and a perennial walking sick note, chops and changes his team on a regular basis, chops and changes systems on a regular basis, brings in players who do not fit his preferred system, fails to sign a LB at all, signs a pub player as DM, signs a GK who the disappears, promises an athletic, young, hungry team, fast attacking football a team to be proud of, asks to be judged after assembling his own team then plays only three of his own signings, targets promotion pre season and as we are we are second from bottom of the Championship after 8 games with no League win
I now see why you think we should keep Jones, you are barking.
Pieters and Bojan didn't want to be here so they were rightly let go. We do not have the money to sign good players. He has to "target" promotion, of course he does. The money we've wasted will come home to roost. We will be in League 1 before long and it won't be Jones fault. I can't believe Mr Scholes still has a suit and tie let alone a job at Stoke City Football Club. Look at Sunderland. Who would we get to come in now? Even Chris Kamara would decide it's not worth the embarrassment. Chris fucking Kamara. I think we could still attract a decent manager the championship is becoming more of an attractive proposition to managers. We have Bielsa at Leeds, Cocu at Derby, Slav at West Brom, Lamouchi at Forest if we let this form carry on we'll soon be in Ipswich territory where we are so far adrift no manager will touch us unless they are desperate and we simply can't let that happen.
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Post by onionman on Sept 24, 2019 10:28:12 GMT
So the best argument for keeping Jones after 3 wins from 30 games is that his hypothetical replacement may lose 10 hypothetical matches. It's a compelling argument. Not making an argument against sacking Jones at all. I just wonder where the madness will stop... do we keep sacking managers every six months until one works out? We’re generally shit at getting rid at the right time and equally as shit at recruiting the right man, so why do we think it’ll work out this time? We’ve got a fucked race car but we keep on replacing the driver and expecting him to win races. We’re then surprised when he comes last, yet we go and do the exact same thing again. We gave the driver 20 free test drives earlier in the year, and told him he would have the entire summer to fix the car just the way he wanted. He decided to take off the knackered old wing mirror and use it as a replacement for the broken rear left wheel, and then went to the dump and found a discarded cardboard box, which he said he would work as a new engine, only to discover in the next race that this was a disastrous idea just as everybody said it would be. He also blew his budget buying an old spare tyre, so that he could replace a tyre that didn’t need replacing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 10:36:42 GMT
So the answer is we stick with a manager who has won 3 out of nearly 30 league games 10% win rate, has brought in 12 of his own players, spent millions on players, ousted Pieters and Bojan and replaced them with an OAP and a perennial walking sick note, chops and changes his team on a regular basis, chops and changes systems on a regular basis, brings in players who do not fit his preferred system, fails to sign a LB at all, signs a pub player as DM, signs a GK who the disappears, promises an athletic, young, hungry team, fast attacking football a team to be proud of, asks to be judged after assembling his own team then plays only three of his own signings, targets promotion pre season and as we are we are second from bottom of the Championship after 8 games with no League win
I now see why you think we should keep Jones, you are barking.
Pieters and Bojan didn't want to be here so they were rightly let go. We do not have the money to sign good players. He has to "target" promotion, of course he does. The money we've wasted will come home to roost. We will be in League 1 before long and it won't be Jones fault. I can't believe Mr Scholes still has a suit and tie let alone a job at Stoke City Football Club. Look at Sunderland. Who would we get to come in now? Even Chris Kamara would decide it's not worth the embarrassment. Chris fucking Kamara. There is nothing to suggest Pieters and Bojan didn't want to be here. It seemed entirely the other way round. They weren't going to play so why stay. It's entirely the opposite of them not wanting to be here. Not giving Bojan proper game time was daft. But letting Pieters go without a replacement was outright lunacy. We don't have the money to sign good players apparently but West Brom managed to sign Sawyers and Ayaji for not much more than Tommy Smith cost. The manager chose the players and he chose badly. There might not be much money but everyone else in the Championship is pretty much in the same boat when it comes to money and yet that manage to sign at least vaguely competent players. If we get relegated it will be Jones' fault AND those above him that hired him in the first place and oversaw that transfer window.
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Post by slother on Sept 24, 2019 10:46:37 GMT
So why did Rowett fail and what has the next guy got?
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 24, 2019 11:03:48 GMT
Good write up on sky about stokes troubles. Good balanced article For me if you offer hughton enough, he will come Absolutely no way. Hughton has a top class reputation. He will be advised by his advisers to sit tight and wait for the right opportunity to come along, such as a Premier League club in trouble with a lot of talent on the books that wants someone different to come in any sort it out. For example Everton have only beaten the bottom 2 sides and not yet played any of the big 6 clubs, so they are in line to be in serious difficulty if Silva doesn't buck his ideas up. Alternatively he could sit and wait till next season for a relegated big club (Newcastle (again), Villa), or a big club that has missed promotion yet again (Leeds) if the right Premier League club opportunity does not materialise. One thing is for certain, there is no way an ex Prem. League manager like Hughton, Pulis, Big Sam (retired I think), Moyes, etc. is going to still their neck in a noose and take on a club at the bottom of the Championship and in free fall to the 3rd tier like Sunderland, Wigan, Blackburn, etc. have done in the past.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2019 11:05:54 GMT
So why did Rowett fail and what has the next guy got? Rowett had some of the same difficulties in inheriting a squad with a losing mentality and doubtless some problems behind the scenes, but he made things worse for himself and the team. He spunked £50m up the wall on players who didn’t fit his system. He threw players under the bus in public He had no time for Etebo, the club’s best midfielder, because he didn’t sign him. He ostracised pretty much every creative player on the books and was left with a team that essentially was nine defence-minded players, Ince and a striker, then tried to claim he’d played five attackers in dire games where we struggled to have a shot on target. He got half a tune out of Berahino largely by letting him get away with murder, which I’m sure went down brilliantly with the rest of the squad. He thought Martina was better than Edwards. He thought it was a good idea to have a pop at the fans after one of the most wince-inducingly poor showings of the season.
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Post by knowingeye on Sept 24, 2019 11:18:08 GMT
So why did Rowett fail and what has the next guy got? Rowett had some of the same difficulties in inheriting a squad with a losing mentality and doubtless some problems behind the scenes, but he made things worse for himself and the team. He spunked £50m up the wall on players who didn’t fit his system. He threw players under the bus in public He had no time for Etebo, the club’s best midfielder, because he didn’t sign him. He ostracised pretty much every creative player on the books and was left with a team that essentially was nine defence-minded players, Ince and a striker, then tried to claim he’d played five attackers in dire games where we struggled to have a shot on target. He got half a tune out of Berahino largely by letting him get away with murder, which I’m sure went down brilliantly with the rest of the squad. He thought Martina was better than Edwards. He thought it was a good idea to have a pop at the fans after one of the most wince-inducingly poor showings of the season. But apart from that.....
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 24, 2019 11:21:58 GMT
Not making an argument against sacking Jones at all. I just wonder where the madness will stop... do we keep sacking managers every six months until one works out? We’re generally shit at getting rid at the right time and equally as shit at recruiting the right man, so why do we think it’ll work out this time? We’ve got a fucked race car but we keep on replacing the driver and expecting him to win races. We’re then surprised when he comes last, yet we go and do the exact same thing again. We gave the driver 20 free test drives earlier in the year, and told him he would have the entire summer to fix the car just the way he wanted. He decided to take off the knackered old wing mirror and use it as a replacement for the broken rear left wheel, and then went to the dump and found a discarded cardboard box, which he said he would work as a new engine, only to discover in the next race that this was a disastrous idea just as everybody said it would be. He also blew his budget buying an old spare tyre, so that he could replace a tyre that didn’t need replacing. I like your analogy, but I think there is one element missing: "told him he would have the entire summer to fix the car just the way he wanted...........but Rowett has spent all the money and you have to work on a shoe string budget for us to comply with FFP rules till we have got rid of / sold all the players you don't want who are on expensive and /or long term contracts" That could take years, as no one wants to pay what Stoke are asking for their expensive players. When a manager enters a new job with a new company he has to make his mark quickly and demonstrate that there are changes to be made. Jones did that firstly by moving on Crouchy and sending back Martina, but I think called it wrong to release Pieters. He has clearly made some mistakes in the new signings who are not near the team, and errors of judgement such as using Woods (out/in/subbed/in/out). But to be fair to the guy he has had some rotten bad luck with defensive errors by the likes of Butland, sending off, injury to Powell, the only central attacking MF we have, hitting the woodwork when we are in control of matches, missing sitters, like Etebo on Saturday, etc.
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Post by thehoof on Sept 24, 2019 11:22:04 GMT
So why did Rowett fail and what has the next guy got? Rowett’s failure is potentially of a different scale to Jones’ failure. Rowett spent £50m and never had us looking like a team that would be a threat to a top 6 position, but equally would not be in danger of relegation. Jones has spent another £19m (Vokes £9m, Batth £3m,Lindsay £2.7m, Smith £4m) and signed several free transfers while ignoring the lack of pace, lack of creativity and total absence of a proven wing back. With a supposedly improved squad (as he cleansed the so called bad apples of Bojan and Pieters) he has taken a team from 13th to 23rd, stopped us scoring goals (0.75 per game under his bold attacking style) and made us highly likely relegation candidates- it may not be solely Jones’s fault but he does carry a great deal of responsibility should we end up back in Div 1.
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