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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 30, 2020 9:27:02 GMT
Interestingly it was this time last year I was out there. I went to Jerusalem for the whole spiritual vibe thing and of course its unreal historical old town which I'd recommend to anyone. Also did a trip out to the Judean desert, dead sea etc which was pretty spectacular. But the tension with "Arabs" was so obvious towards the end of the trip I just thought fuck it and took the "Arab bus" (no Jews allowed) to the West Bank and specifically Bethlehem which was the main city nearby. Amazing experience. I thought Bethlehem would be this chilled, quiant, biblical town with cute donkeys and all the rest of it. The first thing that was obvious after getting past the wall (Banksy has done a big mural there) was that there was nothing quiant or biblical about it. This was a heavily Muslim dominated urban city with mosques, Arabic writing, graffiti, crumbling buildings and Palestinian flags at every corner. Very different to Jerusalem just 30 minutes drive away. Long story short I chucked a local cab driver some cash and got him to give me a tour which was all very interesting.. He was hospitable and his English was excellent. He gave me the run down on Israel and their treatment of Arabs (not all Israeli Arabs view themselves as Palestinian or indeed, Muslim). My conclusion after hearing both sides was that there was definitely a 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other vibe going on. There is no doubt in my mind that Palestine needs to form its own internationally recognised state (Kosovo did it) and the world can move on. Kids and innocent civilians on both sides of the wall are getting caught in the crossfire. Some of the radicalisation stuff Palestinian administration are doing is outrageous (brainwashing children to fight and hate Israel from the age of 5) while Israelis are doing the same thing. It's a shit situation where both sides have to take responsibility (I definitely don't buy into the "it's all Israel's fault" as that's painfully naive, there is much more to it that fuckwit Islington elites like Corbyn won't have a clue about) but there is no doubt it needs sorting, starting with recognition of the Palestinian state. Jerusalem is a minefield though, not quite sure you can have a capital of two countries, unless you corner off the Muslim quarter and give that to Palestine. I'm told Gaza is a different beast altogether and if I ventured in there id be shot dead within a couple of minutes ☺️ It is interesting and if you take time to look into the history of the area, it gets even more complicated. I know many folk on here get very upset when anyone dares to suggest that our own colonial past has some direct responsibility to bear in the current mess, but that is, unfortunately, the case. Not least because we reneged on the agreement to grant Arab independence if they overthrew the Ottomans around WW1. Instead we then controlled British mandated Palestine throughout much of the early 20th century. Also, we refused to implement the UN mandated plan for a two state solution after WW2, a cudgel which the US has taken up with some enthusiasm ever since. No doubt since that point both sides, Palestinians and Israelis, have also not contributed to a lasting peace in any meaningful way. A two-state solution is the only way forward, but since that 1947 point, land has been occupied and built on, so even the "starting point" for a two-state solution would require enormous amounts of argument and potential relocation. Without going into it in tedious depth, Palestine already exists as a UN recognised state and there are numerous UN resolutions requiring Israel to return to and observe the 1967 boundaries, which they continue to ignore. It'll probably take the support of the US to broker a lasting two-state solution but that seems unlikely. Absolutely. I was shown a prison that the turks, British and Israelis had all used to imprison Palestinians. Most of the more educated Palestinians I have spoken to no longer believe a two state solution is possible and would rather have civil rights in a single state. And I tend to agree that the two stare solution is now a salve for western consciounce rather than a meaningful possibility.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 30, 2020 9:28:42 GMT
Come on mate they are massively dubious figures. Even if those numbers were correct (which they just aren't) and 2 million are starving... Surely we need to get to the crux of the problem and not just throw money into irresponsible hands? Reminds me of the old "let's just throw more money at the NHS without addressing its catastrophic structure and management crisis". Give me an example of how, in this country, with the benefit system as it is, why you couldn't feed your child? That's a genuine question because I'm fascinated by it.
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Post by dutchstokie on Oct 30, 2020 9:30:07 GMT
Probably the right time to point out to the slavering right wingers, the Daily Mail sheep and the child hunger fans that yesterday's report made no findings whatsoever against Jermey Corbyn. Best to set up a soup kitchen in your squat in Longton then mate..... Care in the community n all that ! Youd be doing your bit - and the children will look up to you as a pillar of the community.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 30, 2020 9:30:48 GMT
Come on mate they are massively dubious figures. Even if those numbers were correct (which they just aren't) and 2 million are starving... Surely we need to get to the crux of the problem and not just throw money into irresponsible hands? Reminds me of the old "let's just throw more money at the NHS without addressing its catastrophic structure and management crisis". Give me an example of how, in this country, with the benefit system as it is, why you couldn't feed your child? That's a genuine question because I'm fascinated by it. Which figure are you challenging?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 30, 2020 9:31:15 GMT
Probably the right time to point out to the slavering right wingers, the Daily Mail sheep and the child hunger fans that yesterday's report made no findings whatsoever against Jermey Corbyn. Best to set up a soup kitchen in your squat in Longton then mate..... Care in the community n all that ! Youd be doing your bit - and the children will up to you as a pillar of the community. Another child hunger fan checking in.
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Post by dutchstokie on Oct 30, 2020 9:32:57 GMT
Best to set up a soup kitchen in your squat in Longton then mate..... Care in the community n all that ! Youd be doing your bit - and the children will up to you as a pillar of the community. Another child hunger fan checking in. Bless
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 30, 2020 9:34:29 GMT
Another child hunger fan checking in. Bless Why do you want to see poor children suffer?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 30, 2020 9:36:09 GMT
Come on mate they are massively dubious figures. Even if those numbers were correct (which they just aren't) and 2 million are starving... Surely we need to get to the crux of the problem and not just throw money into irresponsible hands? Reminds me of the old "let's just throw more money at the NHS without addressing its catastrophic structure and management crisis". Give me an example of how, in this country, with the benefit system as it is, why you couldn't feed your child? That's a genuine question because I'm fascinated by it. Which figure are you challenging? That 2 million a day are starving!! Or maybe I misinterpreted the graph, so if I have then apologies it was a very quick glance. I'm trying to screenshot but it won't let me back into the site it says I need to log in. Have I seriously just been banned by the grocer.co.uk!!
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Post by dutchstokie on Oct 30, 2020 9:39:45 GMT
Bless Why do you want to see poor children suffer? At a rough guess theres about 65 million people in the UK and not ONE of them wants to see children suffer you thick fucker ! We have exactly the same problems over here its not just a UK thing....... Id be more than happy to show you what I do to help the kids over here if you ever come over mate
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 30, 2020 9:41:42 GMT
Why do you want to see poor children suffer? At a rough guess theres about 65 million people in the UK and not ONE of them wants to see children suffer you thick fucker ! We have exactly the same problems over here its not just a UK thing....... Id be more than happy to show you what I do to help the kids over here if you ever come over mate Let them eat cake.
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Post by dutchstokie on Oct 30, 2020 9:54:12 GMT
At a rough guess theres about 65 million people in the UK and not ONE of them wants to see children suffer you thick fucker ! We have exactly the same problems over here its not just a UK thing....... Id be more than happy to show you what I do to help the kids over here if you ever come over mate Let them eat cake. Just not the ones I bake from time to time.... A large proportion of charity work is co-ordinated through the police over here. I have what they call a 'vergunning omtrent goed gedrag' or translated 'license regarding good behaviour' where if you want to take part in charity work the police first do extensive background checks........what with me being a non NLér this was more in depth as they looked at in terms of ="OK whats he done over in the UK then"...... Once you get that this you sign up to any group that needs assistance. They always ask for this document and then they have to register your involvement with that group to the police. Jokes aside its well worth the time you put in
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Post by Kilo on Oct 30, 2020 10:05:56 GMT
Come on mate they are massively dubious figures. Even if those numbers were correct (which they just aren't) and 2 million are starving... Surely we need to get to the crux of the problem and not just throw money into irresponsible hands? Reminds me of the old "let's just throw more money at the NHS without addressing its catastrophic structure and management crisis". Give me an example of how, in this country, with the benefit system as it is, why you couldn't feed your child? That's a genuine question because I'm fascinated by it. Which figure are you challenging? How about the 25% of the country are living in poverty? In this country, you are living in poverty if your household income is less than 60% of the average which is quite frankly ridiculous. I'm currently not working so technically I'm in poverty as I have no income even though I'm mortgage free, driving a three week old Audi and have a bank account full of cash. But it's statistics isn't it so it must be right.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 30, 2020 10:12:50 GMT
Which figure are you challenging? How about the 25% of the country are living in poverty? In this country, you are living in poverty if your household income is less than 60% of the average which is quite frankly ridiculous. I'm currently not working so technically I'm in poverty as I have no income even though I'm mortgage free, driving a three week old Audi and have a bank account full of cash. But it's statistics isn't it so it must be right. The SMC figures take into account mortgage costs and access to savings.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 30, 2020 10:31:08 GMT
In the West Bank the biggest problem is the settlers and the constant land theft. The settlers are essentially above the law and Palestinians are under military law. Barely a day goes past without settler violence, or chopping down of olive trees etc. This on top of the fact the wall is not built along the 67 or 48 lines but is built to go around land and resources the Israelis wanted. Its an impossible situation. If the settlements had stopped when they were supposed to at the time of Oslo, I really things could be quite different. But they ever growing settlements just indicate to Palestinians there is no intent to allow them a state. And there isnt. The policies regarding jerusalem are similar. The way Palestinians with Jerusalem ID have to jump through endless hoops just to keep that id, and if they lose it, they cant get it back (in fact they'll be lucky to get a pass to even visit jeruselam) is something people know little about but again creates a feeling of Israel being profoundly disingenuous. Alomg with demolition of palestinian homes, its the steady israelification of Jerusalem. Fair play to you for venturing into the west bank, most dont. And it's well worth it even for a day or two. I'd point out that about of 20% palestinians are Christian (and their bible is written in arabic) and most of these are down the south. The muslim and christian communities live peacefully together and are united in opposition to the military occupation by the Israelis. Yeah all fair points, it was certainly an interesting experience. I didnt like the whole "animals in a cage" feel at all and the international community does need to sort it. But at the same time we can't forget that there are some outwright evil leaders and influences on the Palestine side of the wall too. Re religion, maybe it was just Bethlehem but it definitely felt very Islamic both in architecture and public feeling... Only thing I would say is that I do think Christian Arabs have been marginalised in Palestine but hey. That's more to do with Islam as a religion than Palestinian malice. End of the day, the conflict can't just keep getting swept under the carpet and the international community need to sort it if Israel won't. It's hard to seperate Arabic and Islamic but the Arab Christian architecture does tend to be more similar and of course they speak and wrote Arabic. The Palestinian Christian community is not oppressed by the Palestinian Muslim community as far as I'm aware. The Palwstinian Christian's I know are business owners and doing well considering. As I've said elsewhere, I think the international community has to wise up that the two state solution is now not possible. The settlements have killed it. There is no viable second state. Plus Bibi constantly says he will never do it. In Hebrew, at election time. A growing proportion of Palestinians and Istaelis see a one state solution with a civil rights movement not only to be the most accurate portrayal of the current situation, but the only possible outcome left. Israel has slepwalked into the effective end of the idea of a Jewish state. It's a mess. But the sooner the international community start vocally accepting the end of the two state possibility the sooner the pressure mounts to stop settlements or give palestinians civil rights. Incidentally did you notice all the kinky lingerie shops in Bethlehem? Seem so out of place. Palestinian Islam is generally very moderate and apparently it's all going under those hijabs. Such a place of confounding extremes.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 30, 2020 10:31:15 GMT
Probably the right time to point out to the slavering right wingers, the Daily Mail sheep and the child hunger fans that yesterday's report made no findings whatsoever against Jermey Corbyn. They don't investigate individuals they investigate organisations, they issued findings that the Labour party that he controlled and his mates filled the positions of power discriminated against jewish people let that sink in but that is not a finding against him, it just happened without anyone noticing or as the below tweet details they all knew. I think this report also destroys the lie Labour had a winnable case against the whistleblowers but you seem to have dropped that crank theory.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 30, 2020 10:37:52 GMT
Probably the right time to point out to the slavering right wingers, the Daily Mail sheep and the child hunger fans that yesterday's report made no findings whatsoever against Jermey Corbyn. They don't investigate individuals they investigate organisations, they issued findings that the Labour party that he controlled and his mates filled the positions of power discriminated against jewish people let that sink in but that is not a finding against him, it just happened without anyone noticing or as the below tweet details they all knew. I think this report also destroys the lie Labour had a winnable case against the whistleblowers but you seem to have dropped that crank theory. Well that contradicts your guff from yesterday and individuals were cited in the report. As for your final point, you cannot possibly know that. Both sides were in possession of established legal opinion that they had winnable cases and the settling of the cases just like the suspension of Corbyn are foul acts of Political chicanery. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2020 10:44:54 GMT
Probably the right time to point out to the slavering right wingers, the Daily Mail sheep and the child hunger fans that yesterday's report made no findings whatsoever against Jermey Corbyn. They don't investigate individuals they investigate organisations, they issued findings that the Labour party that he controlled and his mates filled the positions of power discriminated against jewish people let that sink in but that is not a finding against him, it just happened without anyone noticing or as the below tweet details they all knew. I think this report also destroys the lie Labour had a winnable case against the whistleblowers but you seem to have dropped that crank theory. The report shows clearly that post Ian McNicol the amount of cases processed went up massively. It’s there in black and white. You’ve already had to downgrade from “The Labour Party was institutionally racist under Corbyn” to picking out random shit on Twitter....
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 30, 2020 10:55:19 GMT
They don't investigate individuals they investigate organisations, they issued findings that the Labour party that he controlled and his mates filled the positions of power discriminated against jewish people let that sink in but that is not a finding against him, it just happened without anyone noticing or as the below tweet details they all knew. I think this report also destroys the lie Labour had a winnable case against the whistleblowers but you seem to have dropped that crank theory. The report shows clearly that post Ian McNicol the amount of cases processed went up massively. It’s there in black and white. You’ve already had to downgrade from “The Labour Party was institutionally racist under Corbyn” to picking out random shit on Twitter.... Exactly. The way our media portrayed the report you can barely blame people for a lack of clarity. The zero tolerence to a single sentence suddesting ANY media role in the anti Semitism "crisis", character assasinatiin of Corbyn and resulting disproportionate fear in sections of the Jewish community is the most glaring aspect of yesterday. Some people just will not allow any discussion of that side of it. Despite the report specifically saying its not anti semitic to do so.
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Post by chad on Oct 30, 2020 11:13:57 GMT
Starmer wanted /needed Corbyn sidelined. He’s seen a way to do it and taken it. He also needs to sideline momentum If he can do that he might make Labour an electable party I can’t understand why Labour supporters see this as a bad thing. It’s like they never really want to actually win elections Strange
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 30, 2020 11:56:30 GMT
Starmer wanted /needed Corbyn sidelined. He’s seen a way to do it and taken it. He also needs to sideline momentum If he can do that he might make Labour an electable party I can’t understand why Labour supporters see this as a bad thing. It’s like they never really want to actually win elections Strange Its not like an unbreakable blind devotion to a football club, it's about voting for something you believe in. Voting for change and for better lives for those shit on for a generation or more. If they're just wearing a thin red tracksuit over their blue strip, what's the fucking point?
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Post by thevoid on Oct 30, 2020 12:01:31 GMT
Who gives a shit about Palestine? We're facing a national crisis here. Let Palestine worry about Palestine. There are a lot of people who give a shit about Palestine. Not least its people living under military occupation and gross injustice. There is a Palestinian man who has been on hunger strike for 90 days to oppose the Israeli policy if administrative detention. Ie, imprisonment without charge. He cares enough to die to oppose the gross injustice his countrymen are facing by a British allie. It's perfectly possible to care about others suffering injustice both within and outside of the country. I added freedom for Palestine to that post as it has relevance in an issue about the abuse of anti semitism. Let's sort our own multitude of issues out here and then when they are resolved we can worry about Palestine then. That's what Labour should be focusing on. The Average Joe traditional Labour voter outside London couldn't give two hoots about Palestine any more than they do about Spain imprisoning Catalan politicians. They want their own problems addressing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2020 12:28:29 GMT
You have to move away from the MSM to get proper analysis of the EHRC report which in itself is telling.....
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 30, 2020 12:36:24 GMT
There are a lot of people who give a shit about Palestine. Not least its people living under military occupation and gross injustice. There is a Palestinian man who has been on hunger strike for 90 days to oppose the Israeli policy if administrative detention. Ie, imprisonment without charge. He cares enough to die to oppose the gross injustice his countrymen are facing by a British allie. It's perfectly possible to care about others suffering injustice both within and outside of the country. I added freedom for Palestine to that post as it has relevance in an issue about the abuse of anti semitism. Let's sort our own multitude of issues out here and then when they are resolved we can worry about Palestine then. That's what Labour should be focusing on. The Average Joe traditional Labour voter outside London couldn't give two hoots about Palestine any more than they do about Spain imprisoning Catalan politicians. They want their own problems addressing. The Labour manifesto was full of policies to improve the lives of British people. Maybe a mention of recognising Palestine. Which previous leader, Ed Milliband had already committed to do. It was not the advocates of Palestinian rights that made the issue central to Labour affairs in recent years, quite the opposite. It was the media and politicians opposed to Corbyn who willfully and disproprtiinatrly put the issue of anti Semitism and its overlapping with Israel at the heart of public debate and kept it there no matter what. I see no reason why a politician should refuse to even hold a position on wider injustices or global issues. Let alone be forced not to.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 30, 2020 13:17:11 GMT
You have to move away from the MSM to get proper analysis of the EHRC report which in itself is telling..... The content of the report was irrelevant really, the MSM response was already filed months ago. The report itself is actually a great disappointment to many people, they have no interest in properly discussing it and care less about the genuine problem the Labour Party has with antisemitism. They were interested in only a hatchet job, which of course is a great insult to those who have suffered by it.
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Post by spitthedog on Oct 30, 2020 13:57:28 GMT
The problem we have is the obsession with personalities, we seem to struggle to separate personalities from the issues.
Anyone and everybody should be concerned about this EHRC report and the political processes behind it.
Throughout the report, the EHRC has drawn conclusions on what is and is not anti-Semitic, where it has no legal power to do so. In addition, the Commission fails to give a definition of anti-Semitism in the report itself, and seems to proceed from the assumption that anything it considers to be anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism.
If the same principle is applied to any other investigation would we be happy? For example, judgements on racist behaviour without a clear definition of what racism is. Calling someone out for being racist without a clear understanding of what racism is?
This is something people complain about all of the time on here, but when applied to someone who one doesn't sympathise with politically then it is ok.
It's a very dangerous road and very selective.
It's ok posting twitter comments by folk who are celebrating damage caused by this report, but I would suggest take a closer look at those who are celebrating, and those behind this report and it might not be so satisfying.
An atmosphere where people are paralysed by fear of being labeled is 'anti-semite' is not healthy just as an atmosphere of being labeled 'racist' is equally destructive, as we see on here on a weekly basis, particularly when the definitions of these are deliberately evasive for political purposes.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 30, 2020 15:14:47 GMT
The problem we have is the obsession with personalities, we seem to struggle to separate personalities from the issues. Anyone and everybody should be concerned about this EHRC report and the political processes behind it. Throughout the report, the EHRC has drawn conclusions on what is and is not anti-Semitic, where it has no legal power to do so. In addition, the Commission fails to give a definition of anti-Semitism in the report itself, and seems to proceed from the assumption that anything it considers to be anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism. If the same principle is applied to any other investigation would we be happy? For example, judgements on racist behaviour without a clear definition of what racism is. Calling someone out for being racist without a clear understanding of what racism is? This is something people complain about all of the time on here, but when applied to someone who one doesn't sympathise with politically then it is ok. It's a very dangerous road and very selective. It's ok posting twitter comments by folk who are celebrating damage caused by this report, but I would suggest take a closer look at those who are celebrating, and those behind this report and it might not be so satisfying. An atmosphere where people are paralysed by fear of being labeled is 'anti-semite' is not healthy just as an atmosphere of being labeled 'racist' is equally destructive, as we see on here on a weekly basis, particularly when the definitions of these are deliberately evasive for political purposes. Spot on
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Post by salopstick on Oct 30, 2020 16:27:34 GMT
You have to move away from the MSM to get proper analysis of the EHRC report which in itself is telling..... It wasn’t the report it was Corbyn not accepting the report in full claiming it was exaggerated For the sake of the party to move on he should have just stayed quiet
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2020 16:34:43 GMT
You have to move away from the MSM to get proper analysis of the EHRC report which in itself is telling..... It wasn’t the report it was Corbyn not accepting the report in full claiming it was exaggerated For the sake of the party to move on he should have just stayed quiet He claimed that the scale of the issue was exaggerated, and it absolutely was.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 30, 2020 17:03:18 GMT
I see Diane Abbott has started a petition to get Corbyn reinstated.....
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 30, 2020 19:03:50 GMT
Just not the ones I bake from time to time.... A large proportion of charity work is co-ordinated through the police over here. I have what they call a 'vergunning omtrent goed gedrag' or translated 'license regarding good behaviour' where if you want to take part in charity work the police first do extensive background checks........what with me being a non NLér this was more in depth as they looked at in terms of ="OK whats he done over in the UK then"...... Once you get that this you sign up to any group that needs assistance. They always ask for this document and then they have to register your involvement with that group to the police. Jokes aside its well worth the time you put in Yeah but whats the value of what you do against a few self righteous comments on here
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