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Post by franklin66 on Jul 15, 2019 19:12:19 GMT
Surely the big challenge with any young player (particularly in a physically demanding position) is managing their appearances so as not to do long term physical damage to a player who is still developing for short term gain. Would Ryan have had such problems with his back if he hadn't played constantly from the age of 19 and while he was still growing? Would Paul Bracewell have had all the injury problems that plagued his career if he hadn't played a full season at the age of 17 but been given a few games off on a regular basis. Would, say, Norman Whiteside have had to retire at 27 if he hadn't played over 100 competitive games before he was 20? Hopefully modern sports science and fatigue management is better than it was but are managers any braver nowadays and prepared to leave a player out of a particular game (or few games) because it will be better for the player's long term development and career? If Ryan had not played would he have spent 10yrs as a premier league player? If Norman had done the same would he have had his success injuries happen age is no bearing on them.
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corkstokie
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Post by corkstokie on Jul 15, 2019 19:48:09 GMT
To all those that have concerns about an 18 year old Nathan Collins playing on a regular basis in the EFL championship, I'd just like to highlight that a 19 year old, Matthijs de Ligt, not only played for but actually captained Ajax in the Dutch premier league, the Champions league and featured regularly for his national team too. If you're good enough, you're old enough and from what we know, this lad Collins definitely is. Surely he has to get a run this season. This ............... totally agree
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corkstokie
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Post by corkstokie on Jul 15, 2019 19:52:21 GMT
To me Marcus Rashford is a great example of how a young player's progress can go off the rails if they get too much exposure early in their career. He has become arrogant and lazy and looks nowhere near as effective as he was when he knew he had to work hard to make it as a player. Therefore if appropriate a young player needs to be taken back a step at the first signs of arrogance. So pick an example of a young player who didn't get lazy and figure out how they managed to stay hungry (they are out there................) Collins is a class act - if he isn't blooded properly this season he'll go and I wouldn't blame him
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Post by kelw on Jul 16, 2019 8:13:48 GMT
To all those that have concerns about an 18 year old Nathan Collins playing on a regular basis in the EFL championship, I'd just like to highlight that a 19 year old, Matthijs de Ligt, not only played for but actually captained Ajax in the Dutch premier league, the Champions league and featured regularly for his national team too. If you're good enough, you're old enough and from what we know, this lad Collins definitely is. Surely he has to get a run this season. This ............... totally agree Using tbe best young CB in Europe as an example hardly a comparison. A lot seems to know the mindset of our players as well
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Post by raythesailor on Jul 16, 2019 8:47:28 GMT
How old was Rooney when he broke into the Everton team?
Worked out OK for him.
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Post by kelw on Jul 16, 2019 8:54:11 GMT
How old was Rooney when he broke into the Everton team? Worked out OK for him. Going back 20 years to single out a rare player to back up a point
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 16, 2019 9:01:05 GMT
Isn't the point that everyone is different and react to situations in different ways? Some young players cope mentally and physically with promotion to the first team, some need a more gradual introduction and others do OK to start with and then become less motivated as they think they've achieved their dream. Same with the physical demands. As fans we have no idea what sort of characters players are, how their bodies are coping and what their attitude is to training or challenges like being dropped. We have to trust the manager and his team to judge that. Frankly if a young player says that he wants a move because the club have brought in competition for his place I can't see that he is going to be the most desirable character to have in a squad.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 16, 2019 9:11:07 GMT
I'm not one for playing players out of position but could he play DM given the opportunity?!... I've not seen enough of him to make a judgement just throwing the question out there.
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 16, 2019 9:20:08 GMT
I'm not one for playing players out of position but could he play DM given the opportunity?!... I've not seen enough of him to make a judgement just throwing the question out there. All I will say is that he was bombing up and down the right second half and he did not look out of place one bit. The lad can play.....
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 16, 2019 9:39:17 GMT
I'm not one for playing players out of position but could he play DM given the opportunity?!... I've not seen enough of him to make a judgement just throwing the question out there. All I will say is that he was bombing up and down the right second half and he did not look out of place one bit. The lad can play..... That's what I'm thinking. I'd hate him to look like Eric Dier in that position but on the flip side he could be like Declan Rice.. worth thinking about.
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Post by clarkeda on Jul 16, 2019 10:11:57 GMT
All I will say is that he was bombing up and down the right second half and he did not look out of place one bit. The lad can play..... That's what I'm thinking. I'd hate him to look like Eric Dier in that position but on the flip side he could be like Declan Rice.. worth thinking about. Maybe that’s the plan. We simply don’t know. Same as leftback. I don’t know whether Collins could do it, but like you say for every Dier there’s a Rice.
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Post by potterpaul on Jul 16, 2019 10:21:54 GMT
I'm not one for playing players out of position but could he play DM given the opportunity?!... I've not seen enough of him to make a judgement just throwing the question out there. Suggested this at back end of season. Trouble was Jones lacked trust in the youngsters and his diamond. If he reverted back to diamond we COULD be talking a lot more positively about the direction and ambition of club. We'd have some idea if Collins was a) Up to scratch as a fullback or b) a possible candidate for base of diamond McLean was capable of LWB Verlinden or Ince could play tip of diamond Campbell could profit from playing alongside Vokes A total waste of precious time during the last 10 weeks or so of last season
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 16, 2019 10:29:22 GMT
That's what I'm thinking. I'd hate him to look like Eric Dier in that position but on the flip side he could be like Declan Rice.. worth thinking about. Maybe that’s the plan. We simply don’t know. Same as leftback. I don’t know whether Collins could do it, but like you say for every Dier there’s a Rice. You’ve just named two England internationals?!?
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Post by clarkeda on Jul 16, 2019 11:06:31 GMT
Maybe that’s the plan. We simply don’t know. Same as leftback. I don’t know whether Collins could do it, but like you say for every Dier there’s a Rice. You’ve just named two England internationals?!? Yup. And?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 16, 2019 11:10:04 GMT
You’ve just named two England internationals?!? Yup. And? I don’t get the bad side of it? Dier is a regular for a good Champions League side as a DM. Rice is an up and coming player with the world at his feet. If Collins could emulate either it would be brilliant for us. That said he’s a CB and needs playing there primarily.
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Post by lordb on Jul 16, 2019 11:13:36 GMT
Dribbling the ball out from the back. Who can and who cannot.? Lyndsey Bruno Collins
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 13:53:33 GMT
How old was Rooney when he broke into the Everton team? Worked out OK for him. Going back 20 years to single out a rare player to back up a point Ronaldo Messi Fowler Owen Walcott There's fucking loads of players who played properly at 17,18,19 and are having good careers still
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Post by kelw on Jul 16, 2019 14:10:47 GMT
Going back 20 years to single out a rare player to back up a point Ronaldo Messi Fowler Owen Walcott There's fucking loads of players who played properly at 17,18,19 and are having good careers still you've gone even further back No-one denying that some players break through at a young age, very few but some do. How many currently in the Championship rather than pick out World/European players of the year as examples? My point was am all for Collins playing, like I said have seen him play 8 or 9 times which at a guess is more than those hailing him as a must starter every week. No harm in him playing gradually this season and being eased in.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 14:17:06 GMT
Ronaldo Messi Fowler Owen Walcott There's fucking loads of players who played properly at 17,18,19 and are having good careers still you've gone even further back No-one denying that some players break through at a young age, very few but some do. How many currently in the Championship rather than pick out World/European players of the year as examples? My point was am all for Collins playing, like I said have seen him play 8 or 9 times which at a guess is more than those hailing him as a must starter every week. No harm in him playing gradually this season and being eased in. We might be looking at a World/Euro player though. Who knows. You'll only find out playing him
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 16, 2019 14:31:07 GMT
Jayden Bogle Derby. Jack Clarke Leeds. Lloyd Kelly Bristol City (now Bournemouth) Max Aarons Norwich
.. just a few championship examples of young talents who have been given an opportunity and taken it with both hands.
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Post by kelw on Jul 16, 2019 14:38:23 GMT
you've gone even further back No-one denying that some players break through at a young age, very few but some do. How many currently in the Championship rather than pick out World/European players of the year as examples? My point was am all for Collins playing, like I said have seen him play 8 or 9 times which at a guess is more than those hailing him as a must starter every week. No harm in him playing gradually this season and being eased in. We might be looking at a World/Euro player though. Who knows. You'll only find out playing him Not that simple is it. Certainly be surprised if not in the ROI full squad in the next 12 months as Stephen Kenny a huge fan, the U21 coach. Good news is that he looks like he will be a first team squad player and won't be going out on loan if the weekend is to go by. A really exciting player but all this, he must start every week is based on what? The Man U thing has certainly turned heads
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 16, 2019 14:45:03 GMT
We might be looking at a World/Euro player though. Who knows. You'll only find out playing him Not that simple is it. Certainly be surprised if not in the ROI full squad in the next 12 months as Stephen Kenny a huge fan, the U21 coach. Good news is that he looks like he will be a first team squad player and won't be going out on loan if the weekend is to go by. A really exciting player but all this, he must start every week is based on what? The Man U thing has certainly turned heads No one but no one is saying he should start every week.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 16, 2019 14:48:04 GMT
Not that simple is it. Certainly be surprised if not in the ROI full squad in the next 12 months as Stephen Kenny a huge fan, the U21 coach. Good news is that he looks like he will be a first team squad player and won't be going out on loan if the weekend is to go by. A really exciting player but all this, he must start every week is based on what? The Man U thing has certainly turned heads No one but no one is saying he should start every week. Hmm you are a bit Bayern, you've got him in your starting line up right? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/kwfoKwtHI0jglJZ4qZf6.gif)
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 16, 2019 14:49:36 GMT
No one but no one is saying he should start every week. Hmm you are a bit Bayern, you've got him in your starting line up right? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/kwfoKwtHI0jglJZ4qZf6.gif) I have him down for 30 games.
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Post by corkstokie on Jul 16, 2019 15:23:02 GMT
Going back 20 years to single out a rare player to back up a point Ronaldo Messi Fowler Owen Walcott There's fucking loads of players who played properly at 17,18,19 and are having good careers still Agree. And I've shared my views about Collins - he's a special talent and we are lucky to have got him before others. This debate is pointless though - people will just stack players as examples to support their argument. Move on and get Collins in - yes he could do CDM.
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Post by corkstokie on Jul 16, 2019 15:27:00 GMT
We might be looking at a World/Euro player though. Who knows. You'll only find out playing him Not that simple is it. Certainly be surprised if not in the ROI full squad in the next 12 months as Stephen Kenny a huge fan, the U21 coach. Good news is that he looks like he will be a first team squad player and won't be going out on loan if the weekend is to go by. A really exciting player but all this, he must start every week is based on what? The Man U thing has certainly turned heads Expect Troy Parrot (Spurs 17 yrs) and Adam Idah (Norwich 18 yrs) both Irish team mates of Collins to be breaking into their senior squads this season. I just hope he gets a fair crack at pre-season and that if he performs we don't bottle it and leave him out for a stalwart
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 15:27:26 GMT
For anyone saying he doesn't need to play, I just wanted to ask how you think that someone moves from under 21 to senior football? Do you think the senior football fairy comes at random one night and blesses them with some magic water and suddenly that player is deemed capable and miraculously everyone in the world can also suddenly see it as well?
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Post by kelw on Jul 16, 2019 15:35:11 GMT
For anyone saying he doesn't need to play, I just wanted to ask how you think that someone moves from under 21 to senior football? Do you think the senior football fairy comes at random one night and blesses them with some magic water and suddenly that player is deemed capable and miraculously everyone in the world can also suddenly see it as well? Not seen anyone say anything of the sort He hasn't made the ROI U21 side yet and they know him far better than you do
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Post by kelw on Jul 16, 2019 15:36:57 GMT
Not that simple is it. Certainly be surprised if not in the ROI full squad in the next 12 months as Stephen Kenny a huge fan, the U21 coach. Good news is that he looks like he will be a first team squad player and won't be going out on loan if the weekend is to go by. A really exciting player but all this, he must start every week is based on what? The Man U thing has certainly turned heads Expect Troy Parrot (Spurs 17 yrs) and Adam Idah (Norwich 18 yrs) both Irish team mates of Collins to be breaking into their senior squads this season. I just hope he gets a fair crack at pre-season and that if he performs we don't bottle it and leave him out for a stalwart Wouldn't call Idah a team mate of late as been playing in the U21s
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 15:37:05 GMT
For anyone saying he doesn't need to play, I just wanted to ask how you think that someone moves from under 21 to senior football? Do you think the senior football fairy comes at random one night and blesses them with some magic water and suddenly that player is deemed capable and miraculously everyone in the world can also suddenly see it as well? Not seen anyone say anything of the sort He hasn't made the ROI U21 side yet and they know him far better than you do Last time I checked I didn't say I know him. I was just asking a question as to how an U21 player becomes a senior player without playing. Nor did I mention the RoI team at all but feel free to ignore what I've actually said as usual and make some bizarre unrelated comment.
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