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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 3, 2019 21:35:38 GMT
Agree with this, once it was clear we were safe etc he should have played them more often if they turned out not to be ready so be it but at least give them some minutes. To play Williams above him was a bloody brain dead decision I guess at the same time that Nath observed there was a fantastical set of results that could still see us in the play offs (as late as March he said it!) He deep down knew that there was a less fantastical set of results that would see us relegated and he bottled it until the maths were finalised. We start on zero in four weeks though, then we'll see what sort of manager Nath is. How ballsy and how youth focussed he is.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 3, 2019 21:38:13 GMT
Agree with this, once it was clear we were safe etc he should have played them more often if they turned out not to be ready so be it but at least give them some minutes. To play Williams above him was a bloody brain dead decision Yeh it was a strange move, there was no need to play him unless the terms of the deal forced it, an if he's fit he plays kind of thing but hopefully we aren't agreeing to those kind of deals in the first place.
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Jul 3, 2019 21:40:04 GMT
To play Williams above him was a bloody brain dead decision I guess at the same time that Nath observed there was a fantastical set of results that could still see us in the play offs (as late as March he said it!) He deep down knew that there was a less fantastical set of results that would see us relegated and he bottled it until the maths were finalised. We start on zero in four weeks though, then we'll see what sort of manager Nath is. How ballsy and how youth focussed he is. I will eat my own arse if anyone other than Edwards starts (in terms of youthful players).
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 14, 2019 12:39:28 GMT
Sounds like he did well at right back too.
We have to play this lad.
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 14, 2019 12:42:45 GMT
We should be turning them all away.
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Post by stokesaint1 on Jul 15, 2019 1:42:07 GMT
To all those that have concerns about an 18 year old Nathan Collins playing on a regular basis in the EFL championship, I'd just like to highlight that a 19 year old, Matthijs de Ligt, not only played for but actually captained Ajax in the Dutch premier league, the Champions league and featured regularly for his national team too. If you're good enough, you're old enough and from what we know, this lad Collins definitely is. Surely he has to get a run this season.
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 15, 2019 7:11:08 GMT
To all those that have concerns about an 18 year old Nathan Collins playing on a regular basis in the EFL championship, I'd just like to highlight that a 19 year old, Matthijs de Ligt, not only played for but actually captained Ajax in the Dutch premier league, the Champions league and featured regularly for his national team too. If you're good enough, you're old enough and from what we know, this lad Collins definitely is. Surely he has to get a run this season. I have to admit I don't know a lot about him but now I do because I saw him play and I saw enough to agree he is definitely worth a go.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jul 15, 2019 7:23:00 GMT
To all those that have concerns about an 18 year old Nathan Collins playing on a regular basis in the EFL championship, I'd just like to highlight that a 19 year old, Matthijs de Ligt, not only played for but actually captained Ajax in the Dutch premier league, the Champions league and featured regularly for his national team too. If you're good enough, you're old enough and from what we know, this lad Collins definitely is. Surely he has to get a run this season. I have to admit I don't know a lot about him but now I do because I saw him play and I saw enough to agree he is definitely worth a go. I listened to an interview with an Academy coach on Talksport last week(sorry missed his name). He made a number of interesting comments about how to integrate young players into the higher level squad and first team. He said sometimes even if the individual player is playing well it’s wise to “bring them” back down a step and then reintroduce them into the higher level again to safeguard their long term progression. He said it’s about the management of the “individual” Common sense really. Perhaps this is a case with Verlinden which only time will time
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 15, 2019 7:29:38 GMT
I have to admit I don't know a lot about him but now I do because I saw him play and I saw enough to agree he is definitely worth a go. I listened to an interview with an Academy coach on Talksport last week(sorry missed his name). He made a number of interesting comments about how to integrate young players into the higher level squad and first team. He said sometimes even if the individual player is playing well it’s wise to “bring them” back down a step and then reintroduce them into the higher level again to safeguard their long term progression. He said it’s about the management of the “individual” Common sense really. Perhaps this is a case with Verlinden which only time will time At some point managers have to decide who the best player is I'm not sure age should come into it. I understand being careful and supporting but many players have played at a younger age at a higher level. I was very impressed with him he stood out for me on Saturday and I had no idea how old he was i could not quite see who it was. Northy told me who it was as there were several I could not identify, new faces etc. We all struggled to put names to players but I'll remember him.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jul 15, 2019 7:33:17 GMT
I have to admit I don't know a lot about him but now I do because I saw him play and I saw enough to agree he is definitely worth a go. I listened to an interview with an Academy coach on Talksport last week(sorry missed his name). He made a number of interesting comments about how to integrate young players into the higher level squad and first team. He said sometimes even if the individual player is playing well it’s wise to “bring them” back down a step and then reintroduce them into the higher level again to safeguard their long term progression. He said it’s about the management of the “individual” Common sense really. Perhaps this is a case with Verlinden which only time will time Not sure I agree with this "bring them back down a step" philosophy ....there are plenty of very successful players who made the mark at 18 and continued to have remarkable careers without having to be "nurtured" by not playing them at the highest level at their clubs.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 15, 2019 7:34:03 GMT
I listened to an interview with an Academy coach on Talksport last week(sorry missed his name). He made a number of interesting comments about how to integrate young players into the higher level squad and first team. He said sometimes even if the individual player is playing well it’s wise to “bring them” back down a step and then reintroduce them into the higher level again to safeguard their long term progression. He said it’s about the management of the “individual” Common sense really. Perhaps this is a case with Verlinden which only time will time Not sure I agree with this "bring them back down a step" philosophy ....there are plenty of very successful players who made the mark at 18 and continued to have remarkable careers without having to be "nurtured" by not playing them at the highest level at their clubs. Yeah sounds like a right cowards way of doing it.
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Post by kelw on Jul 15, 2019 7:37:34 GMT
Seen him play for the Irish youth teams. SK rates him highly but as of yet not fast tracked into the senior squad. I think the hype and the Man U thing getting to a lot of people. He"s a teally promising young lad who for me should be eased in this season. Great potential but let's not get carried away and talk about him starting every week. Hopefully we'll see a lot of him though.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 15, 2019 7:41:18 GMT
Seen him play for the Irish youth teams. SK rates him highly but as of yet not fast tracked into the senior squad. I think the hype and the Man U thing getting to a lot of people. He"s a teally promising young lad who for me should be eased in this season. Great potential but let's not get carried away and talk about him starting every week. Hopefully we'll see a lot of him though. I don’t think anyone has said they want him starting every week.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 15, 2019 8:33:03 GMT
To me Marcus Rashford is a great example of how a young player's progress can go off the rails if they get too much exposure early in their career. He has become arrogant and lazy and looks nowhere near as effective as he was when he knew he had to work hard to make it as a player. Therefore if appropriate a young player needs to be taken back a step at the first signs of arrogance.
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Post by mallorcanstokie on Jul 15, 2019 8:34:01 GMT
There is not a set ‘one off’ way to bring players through to 1st team football, as everyone can see all footballers have different personalities and respond in different ways to different situations, this is where a good manager earn his crust (if he can be bothered, or just go and buy someone)... Nathan, we are watching ...
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 15, 2019 8:35:26 GMT
To me Marcus Rashford is a great example of how a young player's progress can go off the rails if they get too much exposure early in their career. He has become arrogant and lazy and looks nowhere near as effective as he was when he knew he had to work hard to make it as a player. Therefore if appropriate a young player needs to be taken back a step at the first signs of arrogance. So a young lad who has played in a World Cup semi final is your evidence for this. Ok then.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 15, 2019 10:29:58 GMT
To me Marcus Rashford is a great example of how a young player's progress can go off the rails if they get too much exposure early in their career. He has become arrogant and lazy and looks nowhere near as effective as he was when he knew he had to work hard to make it as a player. Therefore if appropriate a young player needs to be taken back a step at the first signs of arrogance. So a young lad who has played in a World Cup semi final is your evidence for this. Ok then. No look at his career since the world cup that's my evidence. Look at how much and how he's played since and his arrogance over his contract. A friend of mine was at the same hotel as the England u21's with his son. Rashford wouldn't give his autograph - not allowed and wouldn't talk to them. On the other hand Grealish gave his autograph and went out of his way to come over to the table and speak to the whole family.
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 15, 2019 11:54:00 GMT
So a young lad who has played in a World Cup semi final is your evidence for this. Ok then. No look at his career since the world cup that's my evidence. Look at how much and how he's played since and his arrogance over his contract. A friend of mine was at the same hotel as the England u21's with his son. Rashford wouldn't give his autograph - not allowed and wouldn't talk to them. On the other hand Grealish gave his autograph and went out of his way to come over to the table and speak to the whole family. Trust Grealish to spoil a smashing meal hey 😁
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jul 15, 2019 13:00:34 GMT
I listened to an interview with an Academy coach on Talksport last week(sorry missed his name). He made a number of interesting comments about how to integrate young players into the higher level squad and first team. He said sometimes even if the individual player is playing well it’s wise to “bring them” back down a step and then reintroduce them into the higher level again to safeguard their long term progression. He said it’s about the management of the “individual” Common sense really. Perhaps this is a case with Verlinden which only time will time At some point managers have to decide who the best player is I'm not sure age should come into it. I understand being careful and supporting but many players have played at a younger age at a higher level. I was very impressed with him he stood out for me on Saturday and I had no idea how old he was i could not quite see who it was. Northy told me who it was as there were several I could not identify, new faces etc. We all struggled to put names to players but I'll remember him. Of course age shouldn’t come into and there’s several examples of youngsters not only holding their own but progressing very nicely. I imagine there are a number of variables to consider on an “individual player” basis. I can understand the “careful” management of a youngster and it’s a skill in itself to do that successfully. We all like youngsters to come in and make an impact. Sometimes I suppose we have to be as patient as the player and the coaching staff. In respect of Collins I look forward to seeing more of him especially because of the hype that surrounded the alleged interest of Man Utd, the same for Verlinden and the other U23’s knocking on the door.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jul 15, 2019 13:06:48 GMT
Not sure I agree with this "bring them back down a step" philosophy ....there are plenty of very successful players who made the mark at 18 and continued to have remarkable careers without having to be "nurtured" by not playing them at the highest level at their clubs. Yeah sounds like a right cowards way of doing it. Don’t be silly. Unless absolutely gifted, different younger players (individuals) need well managed career paths. What will suit one, may not suit another. It’s a careful balancing act. Even down to how well the side is playing before the introduction process, you wouldn’t throw a youngster under the bus just for the sake of it.
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Post by questionable on Jul 15, 2019 13:22:36 GMT
Yes let’s not fast track young players and keep playing some inferior shite from another team. Yesterday’s Cricket shows it’s wrong to fast track youngsters as it gets you nowhere, oh hang on.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Jul 15, 2019 16:19:06 GMT
I hate to say it but I think it would be best to sell him now. Jones has already signed 2 centre backs and not bomb squaded BMI so we have 4 centre backs that have been included to put into two positions.
The ideal solution is we shouldn't have bought Lindsay or Batth but we're not in a financial position to double down on bad decisions.
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Post by clarkeda on Jul 15, 2019 16:22:21 GMT
I hate to say it but I think it would be best to sell him now. Jones has already signed 2 centre backs and not bomb squaded BMI so we have 4 centre backs that have been included to put into two positions. The ideal solution is we shouldn't have bought Lindsay or Batth but we're not in a financial position to double down on bad decisions. I think indi will be on his way if we can.
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Post by Veritas on Jul 15, 2019 16:26:09 GMT
I hate to say it but I think it would be best to sell him now. Jones has already signed 2 centre backs and not bomb squaded BMI so we have 4 centre backs that have been included to put into two positions. The ideal solution is we shouldn't have bought Lindsay or Batth but we're not in a financial position to double down on bad decisions. I think indi will be on his way if we can. I agree I think Collins will be ahead of BMI in the pecking order
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jul 15, 2019 16:37:47 GMT
So a young lad who has played in a World Cup semi final is your evidence for this. Ok then. No look at his career since the world cup that's my evidence. Look at how much and how he's played since and his arrogance over his contract. A friend of mine was at the same hotel as the England u21's with his son. Rashford wouldn't give his autograph - not allowed and wouldn't talk to them. On the other hand Grealish gave his autograph and went out of his way to come over to the table and speak to the whole family. He had his best ever season for Premier League goals straight after the World Cup and has scored 4 of his 7 England goals since the competition. His stats have improved so what are you basing your view on?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 15, 2019 16:45:21 GMT
So a young lad who has played in a World Cup semi final is your evidence for this. Ok then. No look at his career since the world cup that's my evidence. Look at how much and how he's played since and his arrogance over his contract. A friend of mine was at the same hotel as the England u21's with his son. Rashford wouldn't give his autograph - not allowed and wouldn't talk to them. On the other hand Grealish gave his autograph and went out of his way to come over to the table and speak to the whole family. Best career league goal haul last season - check 4 out of 7 England goals since the World Cup - check. Gone to shit the lad has.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 15, 2019 17:26:33 GMT
Well I know two Utd fans who would have been glad to see the back of him this summer and they've seen far more of him than I have. Say he doesn't do the things he used to, doesn't take people onany more, passes sideways and backwards, looks disinterested and feel his wage and contract demands were excessive to say the least. They say he has definitely had too much early success and it's gone to his head.
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Post by AlliG on Jul 15, 2019 17:56:16 GMT
Surely the big challenge with any young player (particularly in a physically demanding position) is managing their appearances so as not to do long term physical damage to a player who is still developing for short term gain.
Would Ryan have had such problems with his back if he hadn't played constantly from the age of 19 and while he was still growing?
Would Paul Bracewell have had all the injury problems that plagued his career if he hadn't played a full season at the age of 17 but been given a few games off on a regular basis.
Would, say, Norman Whiteside have had to retire at 27 if he hadn't played over 100 competitive games before he was 20?
Hopefully modern sports science and fatigue management is better than it was but are managers any braver nowadays and prepared to leave a player out of a particular game (or few games) because it will be better for the player's long term development and career?
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Post by kelw on Jul 15, 2019 18:59:32 GMT
Surely the big challenge with any young player (particularly in a physically demanding position) is managing their appearances so as not to do long term physical damage to a player who is still developing for short term gain. Would Ryan have had such problems with his back if he hadn't played constantly from the age of 19 and while he was still growing? Would Paul Bracewell have had all the injury problems that plagued his career if he hadn't played a full season at the age of 17 but been given a few games off on a regular basis. Would, say, Norman Whiteside have had to retire at 27 if he hadn't played over 100 competitive games before he was 20? Hopefully modern sports science and fatigue management is better than it was but are managers any braver nowadays and prepared to leave a player out of a particular game (or few games) because it will be better for the player's long term development and career? To be fair Norman rarely trained and only exercised his drinking arm thanks to Robson
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Post by baystokie on Jul 15, 2019 19:00:18 GMT
Surely the big challenge with any young player (particularly in a physically demanding position) is managing their appearances so as not to do long term physical damage to a player who is still developing for short term gain. Would Ryan have had such problems with his back if he hadn't played constantly from the age of 19 and while he was still growing? Would Paul Bracewell have had all the injury problems that plagued his career if he hadn't played a full season at the age of 17 but been given a few games off on a regular basis. Would, say, Norman Whiteside have had to retire at 27 if he hadn't played over 100 competitive games before he was 20? Hopefully modern sports science and fatigue management is better than it was but are managers any braver nowadays and prepared to leave a player out of a particular game (or few games) because it will be better for the player's long term development and career? Good post. Few of us have any experience of managing the development of sportsmen, modern sports science, physiology etc and yet we pontificate on what should/should not be done. Physical development needs will vary from person to person as will mental development (something about which we will know nothing) so advice from those closest to the player would seems eminently sensible and more considered.
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