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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 8:46:40 GMT
He argued against this several years ago. His argument was literally “I personally don’t wish to stand therefore standing should never return”, and I’m still not entirely sure he understands why that’s not an effective argument… I can never understand why people would rather stand than sit in a comfortable, seat unless they suffer from piles......get some anusol cream on yer arse and sit down boy! How are cold plastic seats with cramped leg room “comfy”? Leaning on a rail far more comfy if that’s the argument we’re going with.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 6, 2021 9:00:16 GMT
I can never understand why people would rather stand than sit in a comfortable, seat unless they suffer from piles......get some anusol cream on yer arse and sit down boy! How are cold plastic seats with cramped leg room “comfy”? Leaning on a rail far more comfy if that’s the argument we’re going with. And more importantly no more removing the skin from both your shins on the seats in front when we score a last minute winner
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Post by stokiejoe on Oct 6, 2021 9:37:22 GMT
Standing was the normal for many many years without real problems. The problem arose not from standing but by putting fences to stop pitch invasions which in turn caused the terrible Hillsborough disaster. Look at old footage of the 1923 Cup final when the crush caused people to surge on to the pitch. Standing isn't the big problem it's overcrowding and fences.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 6, 2021 10:36:55 GMT
Standing was the normal for many many years without real problems. The problem arose not from standing but by putting fences to stop pitch invasions which in turn caused the terrible Hillsborough disaster. Look at old footage of the 1923 Cup final when the crush caused people to surge on to the pitch. Standing isn't the big problem it's overcrowding and fences. And diving the Lepping Lane terrace into pens with no control on the number going into each pen.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 6, 2021 10:44:57 GMT
Yeah I mean imagine people having a choice He argued against this several years ago. His argument was literally “I personally don’t wish to stand therefore standing should never return”, and I’m still not entirely sure he understands why that’s not an effective argument… Of course at the moment, particularly at away games, there are fans who don't want to stand but have to because other fans are standing, and some fans who have stopped going to away games for that reason. The Club do their best to encourage the 'sitters' to buy seats towards the front, which is welcome, but it doesn't always work. At Preston there were stokies standing on the second row for example. The entire WBA support last Friday stood. I doubt whether they all wanted to. It just makes sense to have separate areas for those who want to stand in safety, and those who want to sit without having their view blocked by someone standing.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 6, 2021 10:51:24 GMT
Malcolm how do you think we are best even talking to the club about this? I haven't forgotten this question ashley. I'm just checking some information on exactly what the legal position now is, and will post when that's done. I don't want to say anything which is wrong.
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Post by nott1 on Oct 6, 2021 11:45:49 GMT
He argued against this several years ago. His argument was literally “I personally don’t wish to stand therefore standing should never return”, and I’m still not entirely sure he understands why that’s not an effective argument… Of course at the moment, particularly at away games, there are fans who don't want to stand but have to because other fans are standing, and some fans who have stopped going to away games for that reason. The Club do their best to encourage the 'sitters' to buy seats towards the front, which is welcome, but it doesn't always work. At Preston there were stokies standing on the second row for example. The entire WBA support last Friday stood. I doubt whether they all wanted to. It just makes sense to have separate areas for those who want to stand in safety, and those who want to sit without having their view blocked by someone standing. The selfish so and so's who stand in front of seated people should be kicked out!
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 6, 2021 11:49:41 GMT
Of course at the moment, particularly at away games, there are fans who don't want to stand but have to because other fans are standing, and some fans who have stopped going to away games for that reason. The Club do their best to encourage the 'sitters' to buy seats towards the front, which is welcome, but it doesn't always work. At Preston there were stokies standing on the second row for example. The entire WBA support last Friday stood. I doubt whether they all wanted to. It just makes sense to have separate areas for those who want to stand in safety, and those who want to sit without having their view blocked by someone standing. The selfish so and so's who stand in front of seated people should be kicked out! Impossible to police. The person in front who is standing is probably doing so because the person in front of them is and so on and so on. Standing areas need to be brought back, that is the only solution.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 6, 2021 12:12:44 GMT
The selfish so and so's who stand in front of seated people should be kicked out! Impossible to police. The person in front who is standing is probably doing so because the person in front of them is and so on and so on. Standing areas need to be brought back, that is the only solution. Yes, indeed. The current system pleases no one. Specially designated safe standing areas and separate seated areas is the ONLY way to square the circle. And let's not forget that the problem never was whether people COULD stand in safety - it was the stadium design flaws, lax safety practices and poor policing which caused the Hillsborough disaster which led to the flawed Taylor report which largely misunderstood both the problem and the solution.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 6, 2021 12:33:38 GMT
Impossible to police. The person in front who is standing is probably doing so because the person in front of them is and so on and so on. Standing areas need to be brought back, that is the only solution. Yes, indeed. The current system pleases no one. Specially designated safe standing areas and separate seated areas is the ONLY way to square the circle. And let's not forget that the problem never was whether people COULD stand in safety - it was the stadium design flaws, lax safety practices and poor policing which caused the Hillsborough disaster which led to the flawed Taylor report which largely misunderstood both the problem and the solution. Yes, great point, a great number of people, possibly a younger generation maybe, believe it was just the standing that was the issue. You rightly point out the many other variables. For me I can't wait until more grounds get some decent allocated standing areas because I think it has been missed how these areas can generate a much better atmosphere and therefore a much improved game experience for everyone in the stadium. Plus it might keep the more rowdy (not in a bad sense) fans away from those who want a more gentile/relaxed match day experience. I miss the Boothen End, as in the proper Boothen End. Doubt you'd get approval for that mind
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Post by nott1 on Oct 7, 2021 7:51:50 GMT
I can never understand why people would rather stand than sit in a comfortable, seat unless they suffer from piles......get some anusol cream on yer arse and sit down boy! How are cold plastic seats with cramped leg room “comfy”? Leaning on a rail far more comfy if that’s the argument we’re going with. I wonder how many people have contacted the owners to demand better seating? I'll tell you.....virtually nobody.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 8:00:55 GMT
How are cold plastic seats with cramped leg room “comfy”? Leaning on a rail far more comfy if that’s the argument we’re going with. I wonder how many people have contacted the owners to demand better seating? I'll tell you.....virtually nobody. Bet a few have contacted about swapping seats for rails though.
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Post by nott1 on Oct 7, 2021 8:33:15 GMT
I wonder how many people have contacted the owners to demand better seating? I'll tell you.....virtually nobody. Bet a few have contacted about swapping seats for rails though. I wonder if anyone has written an objection? They might if their favourite seat is ripped out and replaced!
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 7, 2021 8:36:50 GMT
How are cold plastic seats with cramped leg room “comfy”? Leaning on a rail far more comfy if that’s the argument we’re going with. I wonder how many people have contacted the owners to demand better seating? I'll tell you.....virtually nobody. I bet many many people have contacted Stoke and other clubs to complain about people standing in front of them and blocking their view of the game. And that is something nobody did in the days when all grounds were split into areas where people could stand and other areas where people could sit. Hopefully complaints by seated fans of people standing in front of them and blocking their view will soon be a thing of the past at those grounds which adopt continuous rail standing areas in a big way.
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Post by nott1 on Oct 7, 2021 8:45:15 GMT
I wonder how many people have contacted the owners to demand better seating? I'll tell you.....virtually nobody. I bet many many people have contacted Stoke and other clubs to complain about people standing in front of them and blocking their view of the game. And that is something nobody did in the days when all grounds were split into areas where people could stand and other areas where people could sit. Hopefully complaints by seated fans of people standing in front of them and blocking their view will soon be a thing of the past at those grounds which adopt continuous rail standing areas in a big way. They did complain when some lumbering six and a half footer with a massive hat and umbrella arrived seconds before the match started when you had stood there for half an hour in your regular spot! Soon coming to a club near you!
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 7, 2021 8:55:18 GMT
I bet many many people have contacted Stoke and other clubs to complain about people standing in front of them and blocking their view of the game. And that is something nobody did in the days when all grounds were split into areas where people could stand and other areas where people could sit. Hopefully complaints by seated fans of people standing in front of them and blocking their view will soon be a thing of the past at those grounds which adopt continuous rail standing areas in a big way. They did complain when some lumbering six and a half footer with a massive hat and umbrella arrived seconds before the match started when you had stood there for half an hour in your regular spot! Soon coming to a club near you! My regular spot when I was a school kid in the 60s was on the rail above the horizontal gangway in the Boothen so no bugger ever managed to block my view! I could cope with even people as tall as Crouch and Souttar standing in front of me with no problems.
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Post by nott1 on Oct 7, 2021 9:05:04 GMT
They did complain when some lumbering six and a half footer with a massive hat and umbrella arrived seconds before the match started when you had stood there for half an hour in your regular spot! Soon coming to a club near you! My regular spot when I was a school kid in the 60s was on the rail above the horizontal gangway in the Boothen so no bugger ever managed to block my view! I could cope with even people as tall as Crouch and Souttar standing in front of me with no problems. I had a good spot there for some time in the 50's as it was higher up above the horizontal gangway and a great view. I would still have preferred a seat in the stand though, but it was too costly for me and my mates at that time of our lives. Steam train from Bucknall to Stoke and a Wrights pie after the match (and they tasted a lot better then), great memories.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 10:38:11 GMT
I wrote to Tony Scholes on the 23/09 and to be fair he responded on the 27th; it was a weak response though & this thread has again reminded me to reply. The response was :
"In relation to the Safe-Standing trial commencing January 2022, we will certainly be keeping abreast of developments. We note that the current guidance already includes a number of changes from previous versions (including in respect of rail-type seating). We intend to monitor the results at stadia that elect and are chosen to take part in the further trials and in particular will consider any further operational challenges that emerge. We will then consider our position as a club, which at that stage will include and be informed by consultation with supporters."
I'll try and find some time to reply today & let's see if they give anything further. Enough supporter push and perhaps they might make a slight move.
The council will inevitably accept the weak response they were given and move on, pointless hoping they push it - no disrespect at all meant there, just the truth.
If more individuals/group push the club directly here then the chance of fan consultation sooner might just happen.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Oct 7, 2021 10:46:58 GMT
I wrote to Tony Scholes on the 23/09 and to be fair he responded on the 27th; it was a weak response though & this thread has again reminded me to reply. The response was : "In relation to the Safe-Standing trial commencing January 2022, we will certainly be keeping abreast of developments. We note that the current guidance already includes a number of changes from previous versions (including in respect of rail-type seating). We intend to monitor the results at stadia that elect and are chosen to take part in the further trials and in particular will consider any further operational challenges that emerge. We will then consider our position as a club, which at that stage will include and be informed by consultation with supporters." I'll try and find some time to reply today & let's see if they give anything further. Enough supporter push and perhaps they might make a slight move. The council will inevitably accept the weak response they were given and move on, pointless hoping they push it - no disrespect at all meant there, just the truth. If more individuals/group push the club directly here then the chance of fan consultation sooner might just happen. It might be a bit wishy washy but I’m not sure what else you expected. We’ve not been chosen to trial it and so the sensible thing to do is ‘monitor’ the trial and make a decision based on the results of those trials. It would be a bit foolish of him to pre empt those trials now especially in an email to a fan. If you’d been his nephew on the other hand he’d have given you chapter and verse. 😉
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Post by nott1 on Oct 7, 2021 11:01:17 GMT
I wrote to Tony Scholes on the 23/09 and to be fair he responded on the 27th; it was a weak response though & this thread has again reminded me to reply. The response was : "In relation to the Safe-Standing trial commencing January 2022, we will certainly be keeping abreast of developments. We note that the current guidance already includes a number of changes from previous versions (including in respect of rail-type seating). We intend to monitor the results at stadia that elect and are chosen to take part in the further trials and in particular will consider any further operational challenges that emerge. We will then consider our position as a club, which at that stage will include and be informed by consultation with supporters." I'll try and find some time to reply today & let's see if they give anything further. Enough supporter push and perhaps they might make a slight move. The council will inevitably accept the weak response they were given and move on, pointless hoping they push it - no disrespect at all meant there, just the truth. If more individuals/group push the club directly here then the chance of fan consultation sooner might just happen. I doubt any action and building work won't start anytime soon even if they go ahead as it will have to take place out of season, but which season? Could be years even if they decide to proceed!
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Post by nott1 on Oct 7, 2021 11:02:07 GMT
I wrote to Tony Scholes on the 23/09 and to be fair he responded on the 27th; it was a weak response though & this thread has again reminded me to reply. The response was : "In relation to the Safe-Standing trial commencing January 2022, we will certainly be keeping abreast of developments. We note that the current guidance already includes a number of changes from previous versions (including in respect of rail-type seating). We intend to monitor the results at stadia that elect and are chosen to take part in the further trials and in particular will consider any further operational challenges that emerge. We will then consider our position as a club, which at that stage will include and be informed by consultation with supporters." I'll try and find some time to reply today & let's see if they give anything further. Enough supporter push and perhaps they might make a slight move. The council will inevitably accept the weak response they were given and move on, pointless hoping they push it - no disrespect at all meant there, just the truth. If more individuals/group push the club directly here then the chance of fan consultation sooner might just happen. I doubt any action and building work would start anytime soon even if they go ahead as it will have to take place out of season, but which season? Could be years even if they decide to proceed!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 11:02:23 GMT
I wrote to Tony Scholes on the 23/09 and to be fair he responded on the 27th; it was a weak response though & this thread has again reminded me to reply. The response was : "In relation to the Safe-Standing trial commencing January 2022, we will certainly be keeping abreast of developments. We note that the current guidance already includes a number of changes from previous versions (including in respect of rail-type seating). We intend to monitor the results at stadia that elect and are chosen to take part in the further trials and in particular will consider any further operational challenges that emerge. We will then consider our position as a club, which at that stage will include and be informed by consultation with supporters." I'll try and find some time to reply today & let's see if they give anything further. Enough supporter push and perhaps they might make a slight move. The council will inevitably accept the weak response they were given and move on, pointless hoping they push it - no disrespect at all meant there, just the truth. If more individuals/group push the club directly here then the chance of fan consultation sooner might just happen. It might be a bit wishy washy but I’m not sure what else you expected. We’ve not been chosen to trial it and so the sensible thing to do is ‘monitor’ the trial and make a decision based on the results of those trials. It would be a bit foolish of him to pre empt those trials now especially in an email to a fan. If you’d been his nephew on the other hand he’d have given you chapter and verse. 😉 We didn't put ourselves forward to trial (shock). My questions to him were simple, why are we not consulting supporters now, % of expected uptake etc. Why are we also not openly looking at how and where we would install the rail seating, based on the feedback from fans that should be being gathered now. If he wants to look at trials or actual evidence of it in use, he doesn't need to look further that Scotland or Germany. It really isn't difficult to put in motion the first steps to save weeks/months of time in future.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 11:05:48 GMT
I wrote to Tony Scholes on the 23/09 and to be fair he responded on the 27th; it was a weak response though & this thread has again reminded me to reply. The response was : "In relation to the Safe-Standing trial commencing January 2022, we will certainly be keeping abreast of developments. We note that the current guidance already includes a number of changes from previous versions (including in respect of rail-type seating). We intend to monitor the results at stadia that elect and are chosen to take part in the further trials and in particular will consider any further operational challenges that emerge. We will then consider our position as a club, which at that stage will include and be informed by consultation with supporters." I'll try and find some time to reply today & let's see if they give anything further. Enough supporter push and perhaps they might make a slight move. The council will inevitably accept the weak response they were given and move on, pointless hoping they push it - no disrespect at all meant there, just the truth. If more individuals/group push the club directly here then the chance of fan consultation sooner might just happen. I doubt any action and building work won't start anytime soon even if they go ahead as it will have to take place out of season, but which season? Could be years even if they decide to proceed! Whilst I disagree with your views on safe-standing you're bang on here. It would have to be closed-season so you'd imagine we should be aiming for Summer '22. Here we are waiting for 'trial results', which likely won't be back before Summer '22, and then we'll spend that whole year engaging with supporters and manufacturers and likely we won't be seeing this until 2023/24, just not pro-active enough. I'd estimate that this will get the green light for all clubs from the start of next season.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Oct 7, 2021 11:20:09 GMT
It might be a bit wishy washy but I’m not sure what else you expected. We’ve not been chosen to trial it and so the sensible thing to do is ‘monitor’ the trial and make a decision based on the results of those trials. It would be a bit foolish of him to pre empt those trials now especially in an email to a fan. If you’d been his nephew on the other hand he’d have given you chapter and verse. 😉 We didn't put ourselves forward to trial (shock). My questions to him were simple, why are we not consulting supporters now, % of expected uptake etc. Why are we also not openly looking at how and where we would install the rail seating, based on the feedback from fans that should be being gathered now. If he wants to look at trials or actual evidence of it in use, he doesn't need to look further that Scotland or Germany. It really isn't difficult to put in motion the first steps to save weeks/months of time in future. Fair point but as Nott1 says above there’s plenty of opportunity to consult as this won’t be happening any time soon even if the results of the trials are positive.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Oct 7, 2021 11:23:31 GMT
If we do bring standing back at some point I'll feel a little robbed. I stood on the old Boothen End as a child and early teen but we moved grounds as I went into my mid teens, just as I was about to enter the prime years for standing at the football. Would have loved to have stood through the 2000s in my 20s. Now I'm not far off 40 I'm reaching the point where I actually prefer sitting down now and don't really drink that much at the games any more. So if standing was brought back now, I'd probably stick with my seat and wouldn't bother moving.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 11:55:55 GMT
We didn't put ourselves forward to trial (shock). My questions to him were simple, why are we not consulting supporters now, % of expected uptake etc. Why are we also not openly looking at how and where we would install the rail seating, based on the feedback from fans that should be being gathered now. If he wants to look at trials or actual evidence of it in use, he doesn't need to look further that Scotland or Germany. It really isn't difficult to put in motion the first steps to save weeks/months of time in future. Fair point but as Nott1 says above there’s plenty of opportunity to consult as this won’t be happening any time soon even if the results of the trials are positive. Start of next season this will be green lighted all over the country, no doubt.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 12:03:56 GMT
If we do bring standing back at some point I'll feel a little robbed. I stood on the old Boothen End as a child and early teen but we moved grounds as I went into my mid teens, just as I was about to enter the prime years for standing at the football. Would have loved to have stood through the 2000s in my 20s. Now I'm not far off 40 I'm reaching the point where I actually prefer sitting down now and don't really drink that much at the games any more. So if standing was brought back now, I'd probably stick with my seat and wouldn't bother moving. Feel the same way although I'm early 30s so my memories of the vic are more vague, and I never stood there. Stood at a few away grounds, Ninian Park a few times being the most memorable. Mentioned before that I remember being 15 and following this campaign and believing at the time that it'd be implemented "within 5 years". When standing returns at stoke I'll be mid 30s at least. As pleased as I'll be to see it, it's hard not to feel robbed of those prime years as you say.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Oct 7, 2021 12:04:20 GMT
Fair point but as Nott1 says above there’s plenty of opportunity to consult as this won’t be happening any time soon even if the results of the trials are positive. Start of next season this will be green lighted all over the country, no doubt. I have no idea mate although I’m doubtful bearing in mind the speed the football authorities and our club move. After all It took us 10 years to get round to filling 1 corner in just in time for relegation and lower gates.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 12:46:12 GMT
Start of next season this will be green lighted all over the country, no doubt. I have no idea mate although I’m doubtful bearing in mind the speed the football authorities and our club move. After all It took us 10 years to get round to filling 1 corner in just in time for relegation and lower gates. This is my main frustration mate, look how long it took us to get any sort of card payments in the ground. At that pace it'll take us years to do this, we have to be more pro-active.
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Post by nott1 on Oct 7, 2021 13:56:27 GMT
Fair point but as Nott1 says above there’s plenty of opportunity to consult as this won’t be happening any time soon even if the results of the trials are positive. Start of next season this will be green lighted all over the country, no doubt. There will also be tenders out for architects and builders and a wait for architects designs never mind needing planning permission for the alterations and that sort of delay, plus getting supporters approval and starting a scramble for fans seating arrangements if their seats are ripped out. I reckon at least another 2 or 3 seasons before it's even started! Might as well build a a new 50k seater/safe standing stadium for our Champions League adventures
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