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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 16:05:27 GMT
The use of pepper spray against Stoke fans in Preston was an over-reaction by the police to say the least. It probably had as much to do with what happened in Blackpool a few hours earlier, when it 'kicked off' and flares got chucked around. No doubt news of this incident filtered down to Preston Old Bill and they decided to take no prisoners. Expect more of the same in future. If my face gets sprayed on a away game there will be a claim going in Trevor’s had his face sprayed on quite a few occasions hasn’t he waggy lad?
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Post by Waggy on Aug 21, 2018 16:09:09 GMT
If my face gets sprayed on a away game there will be a claim going in Trevor’s had his face sprayed on quite a few occasions hasn’t he waggy lad? Not with the peppery stuff. I am contemplating wearing swimming goggles at away games to protect myself from the boys in blue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 16:57:08 GMT
This kind of generalisation is not helpful. It is as inappropriate to generalise about a whole police force from the action of one police officer as it would be for the police to generalise about Stoke fans from the actions of a small number, which of course is exactly the problem we have sometimes been faced with. Now I'm not necessarily saying I agree that its a generalisation of all Lancashire police, nor would I necessarily agree with that generalisation. That said, however, You've made a few too many oversimplifications in your comparison. For example: Police DO generalise football fans, not just the small majority of fans, when everything is calm and peaceful it's policing by consent and being helpful etc. But when any bit of kick off happens, you don't want to be in the wrong place with any PC because they will absolutely switch to view you in relation to the group you're attached to, no longer as an individual. They always have and when they get it wrong its slapping girls and pepper spraying kids. - Let's be clear it wasn't the action of 'One' officer at PNE. There have been at least 2 instances of Lancs Police being over-zealous not one in the last week. Police close ranks around their own - just look at the Hillsborough verdict today, which means when a PC 'slaps' a girl in the face like that, had it not been caught on video he gets away with being paid by taxpayers to do it. It did get caught on video and he'll probably end up with a slap on the wrist at most if anything, As I fully expect Sergeant Pepper and his band of itchy-fingered peace-upholders to walk away with. So the comparison here to football fans? If Stoke fans generalise the police, they might think they're a bunch of pepper spraying heavy handed prison guards in waiting, or maybe the chords of mystic trust between your average fan and your average PC become strained. Well, so fucking what? How inappropriate indeed...If Stoke fans try and close ranks around their own, They get arrested or pepper sprayed. Neither group are going to stop generalising each other and here's why. Police have a uniform, to signify their powers on match days. Let's say you walked into the pepper spraying incident WITHOUT generalising, how's that going to go for you? It's categorically common sense for either group to be wary of the other for a whole host of reason - namely history and the very specific relations that have been developed of the tried and tested practice of matchday experience vs matchday policing. So you can make a pretty accurate consideration which will actually help you keep safe when identifying police on matchday: Presume the worst because they will close ranks, if things get ugly, even if it's not your fault or you're innocent you could still end up getting pepper sprayed or worse. You can Guarantee they'd generalise when you're on the other side of it, as they did when pepper spraying a child. Policing by consent went right out of the window and it was just pure crowd control. Your posts have mostly been sensible on this thread, But I take issue with you telling people what is and isn't appropriate, considering who fell foul of both situations.
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Post by expectedtoulouse on Aug 21, 2018 17:12:24 GMT
There is still a culture in this, and other countries for that matter, of Police behaving in a completely inappropriate, negligent and perhaps a criminal manner towards football supporters.
Pepper spray, GMPs actions and Duckenfield is still a free man. It’s absolutely disgusting and must change.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 21, 2018 17:24:39 GMT
This kind of generalisation is not helpful. It is as inappropriate to generalise about a whole police force from the action of one police officer as it would be for the police to generalise about Stoke fans from the actions of a small number, which of course is exactly the problem we have sometimes been faced with. Now I'm not necessarily saying I agree that its a generalisation of all Lancashire police, nor would I necessarily agree with that generalisation. That said, however, You've made a few too many oversimplifications in your comparison. For example: Police DO generalise football fans, not just the small majority of fans, when everything is calm and peaceful it's policing by consent and being helpful etc. But when any bit of kick off happens, you don't want to be in the wrong place with any PC because they will absolutely switch to view you in relation to the group you're attached to, no longer as an individual. They always have and when they get it wrong its slapping girls and pepper spraying kids. - Let's be clear it wasn't the action of 'One' officer at PNE. There have been at least 2 instances of Lancs Police being over-zealous not one in the last week. Police close ranks around their own - just look at the Hillsborough verdict today, which means when a PC 'slaps' a girl in the face like that, had it not been caught on video he gets away with being paid by taxpayers to do it. It did get caught on video and he'll probably end up with a slap on the wrist at most if anything, As I fully expect Sergeant Pepper and his band of itchy-fingered peace-upholders to walk away with. So the comparison here to football fans? If Stoke fans generalise the police, they might think they're a bunch of pepper spraying heavy handed prison guards in waiting, or maybe the chords of mystic trust between your average fan and your average PC become strained. Well, so fucking what? How inappropriate indeed...If Stoke fans try and close ranks around their own, They get arrested or pepper sprayed. Neither group are going to stop generalising each other and here's why. Police have a uniform, to signify their powers on match days. Let's say you walked into the pepper spraying incident WITHOUT generalising, how's that going to go for you? It's categorically common sense for either group to be wary of the other for a whole host of reason - namely history and the very specific relations that have been developed of the tried and tested practice of matchday experience vs matchday policing. So you can make a pretty accurate consideration which will actually help you keep safe when identifying police on matchday: Presume the worst because they will close ranks, if things get ugly, even if it's not your fault or you're innocent you could still end up getting pepper sprayed or worse. You can Guarantee they'd generalise when you're on the other side of it, as they did when pepper spraying a child. Policing by consent went right out of the window and it was just pure crowd control. Your posts have mostly been sensible on this thread, But I take issue with you telling people what is and isn't appropriate, considering who fell foul of both situations. Hang on. Your first sentence indicates that you agree with the only point I made in my post 👍 I don’t actually disagree with quite a lot of the rest but it doesn’t refute my rather simple point.
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Post by elystokie on Aug 21, 2018 17:43:10 GMT
Trevor’s had his face sprayed on quite a few occasions hasn’t he waggy lad? Not with the peppery stuff. I am contemplating wearing swimming goggles at away games to protect myself from the boys in blue. Maybe everyone should wear a pair
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Post by cobhamstokey on Aug 21, 2018 17:45:36 GMT
And we have plenty of self righteous pricks on here supporting the well over the top police actions. In the interest of balance there are plenty also trying to justify the actions of the fans too. All this is based upon 30 seconds of mobile phone footage. I’ll await the final outcome of any investigation before deciding whose actions were over the top. Well said. Some people have made their mind up already just because they have an inbuilt predjudice of Police and the language they use against people they dont agree with says something about them. If we had no police at games we'd have 2 percent having a great time smashing in doors, getting pissed, swearing and being abusive and the other 98 percent would have to just put up with it.
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Post by Waggy on Aug 21, 2018 17:48:39 GMT
Not with the peppery stuff. I am contemplating wearing swimming goggles at away games to protect myself from the boys in blue. Maybe everyone should wear a pair If we play them next season ( if) ( doubtful) ( as good things are going to start happening) we should definitely wear them there
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Aug 21, 2018 17:56:31 GMT
Not with the peppery stuff. I am contemplating wearing swimming goggles at away games to protect myself from the boys in blue. Maybe everyone should wear a pair And speedos?
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Post by elystokie on Aug 21, 2018 17:58:28 GMT
Maybe everyone should wear a pair And speedos?
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Post by Waggy on Aug 21, 2018 18:01:05 GMT
Maybe everyone should wear a pair And speedos? [br I don't look the best in speedos to be honest.
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Post by dexta on Aug 21, 2018 18:22:31 GMT
Trevor’s had his face sprayed on quite a few occasions hasn’t he waggy lad? Not with the peppery stuff. I am contemplating wearing swimming goggles at away games to protect myself from the boys in blue. get some done waggy lad...market them red and white ones with scfc goin across the middle of them
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Aug 21, 2018 18:25:03 GMT
And speedos? [br I don't look the best in speedos to be honest. Not in that photo you don't you're right.
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Post by Waggy on Aug 21, 2018 18:34:53 GMT
[br I don't look the best in speedos to be honest. Not in that photo you don't. That is not me. I would never go semi naked to a football match.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Aug 21, 2018 18:36:55 GMT
Not in that photo you don't. That is not me. I would never go semi naked to a football match. Just totally?
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Post by Waggy on Aug 21, 2018 18:37:19 GMT
Not with the peppery stuff. I am contemplating wearing swimming goggles at away games to protect myself from the boys in blue. get some done waggy lad...market them red and white ones with scfc goin across the middle of them It could be a great idea. I don't think the police would like it but after the over the top actions i could no longer give a damn
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Post by Waggy on Aug 21, 2018 18:38:04 GMT
get some done waggy lad...market them red and white ones with scfc goin across the middle of them It could be a great idea. I don't think the police would like it but after the over the top actions i could no longer give a damn In saying that i will still not break the law
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Aug 21, 2018 18:40:26 GMT
get some done waggy lad...market them red and white ones with scfc goin across the middle of them It could be a great idea. I don't think the police would like it but after the over the top actions i could no longer give a damn Just tell them you're going up Dimensions after the match. And as long as you don't breast feed in the deep end you'll be fine.
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Post by onefatcopper on Aug 21, 2018 20:37:52 GMT
This kind of generalisation is not helpful. It is as inappropriate to generalise about a whole police force from the action of one police officer as it would be for the police to generalise about Stoke fans from the actions of a small number, which of course is exactly the problem we have sometimes been faced with. Now I'm not necessarily saying I agree that its a generalisation of all Lancashire police, nor would I necessarily agree with that generalisation. That said, however, You've made a few too many oversimplifications in your comparison. For example: Police DO generalise football fans, not just the small majority of fans, when everything is calm and peaceful it's policing by consent and being helpful etc. But when any bit of kick off happens, you don't want to be in the wrong place with any PC because they will absolutely switch to view you in relation to the group you're attached to, no longer as an individual. They always have and when they get it wrong its slapping girls and pepper spraying kids. - Let's be clear it wasn't the action of 'One' officer at PNE. There have been at least 2 instances of Lancs Police being over-zealous not one in the last week. Police close ranks around their own - just look at the Hillsborough verdict today, which means when a PC 'slaps' a girl in the face like that, had it not been caught on video he gets away with being paid by taxpayers to do it. It did get caught on video and he'll probably end up with a slap on the wrist at most if anything, As I fully expect Sergeant Pepper and his band of itchy-fingered peace-upholders to walk away with. So the comparison here to football fans? If Stoke fans generalise the police, they might think they're a bunch of pepper spraying heavy handed prison guards in waiting, or maybe the chords of mystic trust between your average fan and your average PC become strained. Well, so fucking what? How inappropriate indeed...If Stoke fans try and close ranks around their own, They get arrested or pepper sprayed. Neither group are going to stop generalising each other and here's why. Police have a uniform, to signify their powers on match days. Let's say you walked into the pepper spraying incident WITHOUT generalising, how's that going to go for you? It's categorically common sense for either group to be wary of the other for a whole host of reason - namely history and the very specific relations that have been developed of the tried and tested practice of matchday experience vs matchday policing. So you can make a pretty accurate consideration which will actually help you keep safe when identifying police on matchday: Presume the worst because they will close ranks, if things get ugly, even if it's not your fault or you're innocent you could still end up getting pepper sprayed or worse. You can Guarantee they'd generalise when you're on the other side of it, as they did when pepper spraying a child. Policing by consent went right out of the window and it was just pure crowd control. Your posts have mostly been sensible on this thread, But I take issue with you telling people what is and isn't appropriate, considering who fell foul of both situations. Today’s decision by the CPS not to charge Sir Norman Bettison is confirmation of my earlier post, how do you have any chance of justice when you are going up against the biggest state sponsored organised gang in this country ? After nearly 30 years the families of those 96 football fans who never returned home will not have their day in court ? Remember they were fans who were just like you and me,
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 21, 2018 20:44:24 GMT
Now I'm not necessarily saying I agree that its a generalisation of all Lancashire police, nor would I necessarily agree with that generalisation. That said, however, You've made a few too many oversimplifications in your comparison. For example: Police DO generalise football fans, not just the small majority of fans, when everything is calm and peaceful it's policing by consent and being helpful etc. But when any bit of kick off happens, you don't want to be in the wrong place with any PC because they will absolutely switch to view you in relation to the group you're attached to, no longer as an individual. They always have and when they get it wrong its slapping girls and pepper spraying kids. - Let's be clear it wasn't the action of 'One' officer at PNE. There have been at least 2 instances of Lancs Police being over-zealous not one in the last week. Police close ranks around their own - just look at the Hillsborough verdict today, which means when a PC 'slaps' a girl in the face like that, had it not been caught on video he gets away with being paid by taxpayers to do it. It did get caught on video and he'll probably end up with a slap on the wrist at most if anything, As I fully expect Sergeant Pepper and his band of itchy-fingered peace-upholders to walk away with. So the comparison here to football fans? If Stoke fans generalise the police, they might think they're a bunch of pepper spraying heavy handed prison guards in waiting, or maybe the chords of mystic trust between your average fan and your average PC become strained. Well, so fucking what? How inappropriate indeed...If Stoke fans try and close ranks around their own, They get arrested or pepper sprayed. Neither group are going to stop generalising each other and here's why. Police have a uniform, to signify their powers on match days. Let's say you walked into the pepper spraying incident WITHOUT generalising, how's that going to go for you? It's categorically common sense for either group to be wary of the other for a whole host of reason - namely history and the very specific relations that have been developed of the tried and tested practice of matchday experience vs matchday policing. So you can make a pretty accurate consideration which will actually help you keep safe when identifying police on matchday: Presume the worst because they will close ranks, if things get ugly, even if it's not your fault or you're innocent you could still end up getting pepper sprayed or worse. You can Guarantee they'd generalise when you're on the other side of it, as they did when pepper spraying a child. Policing by consent went right out of the window and it was just pure crowd control. Your posts have mostly been sensible on this thread, But I take issue with you telling people what is and isn't appropriate, considering who fell foul of both situations. Today’s decision by the CPS not to charge Sir Norman Bettison is confirmation of my earlier post, how do you have any chance of justice when you are going up against the biggest state sponsored organised gang in this country ? After nearly 30 years the families of those 96 football fans who never returned home will not have their day in court ? Remember they were fans who were just like you and me, That evidence seemed flimsy as fook though. “Something he told me down the pub in 1989” being part of that.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Aug 21, 2018 20:45:31 GMT
Today’s decision by the CPS not to charge Sir Norman Bettison is confirmation of my earlier post, how do you have any chance of justice when you are going up against the biggest state sponsored organised gang in this country ? After nearly 30 years the families of those 96 football fans who never returned home will not have their day in court ? Remember they were fans who were just like you and me, That evidence seemed flimsy as fook though. “Something he told me down the pub in 1989” being part of that. The police have got convictions on flimsier though
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 21, 2018 20:46:15 GMT
That evidence seemed flimsy as fook though. “Something he told me down the pub in 1989” being part of that. The police have got convictions on flimsier though Still, from the look of it he should never have been in court.
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Post by onefatcopper on Aug 21, 2018 20:52:55 GMT
The police have got convictions on flimsier though Still, from the look of it he should never have been in court. The CPS decided against the victims families and their legal teams wishes to plough on regardless with the 4 charges that they ultimately withdrew today !
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Aug 21, 2018 20:53:03 GMT
The police have got convictions on flimsier though Still, from the look of it he should never have been in court. I've not read the evidence mate so I can't comment. He does come across as a totally arrogant tossrag though.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 21, 2018 20:56:10 GMT
Still, from the look of it he should never have been in court. The CPS decided against the victims families and their legal teams wishes to plough on regardless with the 4 charges that they ultimately withdrew today ! As they should if they don’t think it’s worth it.
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Post by xchpotter on Aug 21, 2018 21:01:31 GMT
Oh dear.....Hillsborough debate on this thread as well. Gonna be a long few days and there may be casualties.
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Post by onefatcopper on Aug 21, 2018 21:09:55 GMT
The CPS decided against the victims families and their legal teams wishes to plough on regardless with the 4 charges that they ultimately withdrew today ! As they should if they don’t think it’s worth it. Exactly they went ahead with 4 charges they chose from the (Bundle) files knowing full well that this would be the outcome ! There were more viable charges that could have seen a totally different scenario but the CPS decided ignore these ? I’ll ask you this who do the CPS & South Yorkshire Constabulary both serve ?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 21, 2018 21:11:40 GMT
As they should if they don’t think it’s worth it. Exactly they went ahead with 4 charges they chose from the (Bundle) files knowing full well that this would be the outcome ! There were more viable charges that could have seen a totally different scenario but the CPS decided ignore these ? I’ll ask you this who do the CPS & South Yorkshire Constabulary both serve ? The CPS are renowned for being shit. This isn’t some fucking conspiracy!
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 21, 2018 21:23:44 GMT
It is as inappropriate to generalise about a whole police force from the action of one police officer I'm not sure that's entirely true, Malcolm. Anyone who had any dealings with individuals or small groups of officers from the WMP over a long period of time were well able to decipher that you could do just that!
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Post by onefatcopper on Aug 21, 2018 21:36:19 GMT
Exactly they went ahead with 4 charges they chose from the (Bundle) files knowing full well that this would be the outcome ! There were more viable charges that could have seen a totally different scenario but the CPS decided ignore these ? I’ll ask you this who do the CPS & South Yorkshire Constabulary both serve ? The CPS are renowned for being shit. This isn’t some fucking conspiracy! How can you come to a concise conclusion on a legal fight that’s taken 3 decades, I honestly wouldn’t know how to start ! Missing Police notebooks, falsifying statements, incorrec times of death and what’s frightening in one part of the evidence is that fans had forced open a entrance/exit door ? Now this is what allegedly occurred at Preston which we all know resulted in the heavy handed response by Lancashire Constabulary. Let’s just see what the outcome of the investigation into this incident is and who will get apportioned the blame .
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