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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 21, 2018 21:39:51 GMT
The CPS are renowned for being shit. This isn’t some fucking conspiracy! How can you come to a concise conclusion on a legal fight that’s taken 3 decades, I honestly wouldn’t know how to start ! Missing Police notebooks, falsifying statements, incorrec times of death and what’s frightening in one part of the evidence is that fans had forced open a entrance/exit door ? Now this is what allegedly occurred at Preston which we all know resulted in the heavy handed response by Lancashire Constabulary. Let’s just see what the outcome of the investigation into this incident is and who will get apportioned the blame . I haven’t mentioned this incident. What are you going on about?
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Post by onefatcopper on Aug 21, 2018 21:45:25 GMT
How can you come to a concise conclusion on a legal fight that’s taken 3 decades, I honestly wouldn’t know how to start ! Missing Police notebooks, falsifying statements, incorrec times of death and what’s frightening in one part of the evidence is that fans had forced open a entrance/exit door ? Now this is what allegedly occurred at Preston which we all know resulted in the heavy handed response by Lancashire Constabulary. Let’s just see what the outcome of the investigation into this incident is and who will get apportioned the blame . I haven’t mentioned this incident. What are you going on about? What incident ? I don’t know nothing about anything officer 👮♂️
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Post by Boothen on Aug 21, 2018 22:59:45 GMT
One of the best, and funniest, things I ever witnessed was some jumped up traffic cop CS spraying himself in a car and then getting locked in said car. Was hilarious.
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Post by djduncanjames on Aug 22, 2018 0:03:24 GMT
One of the best, and funniest, things I ever witnessed was some jumped up traffic cop CS spraying himself in a car and then getting locked in said car. Was hilarious. you know the drill, picture or it didnt happen ![(lol)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/lvpvZ64EmrkLcuVniUmo.gif) hilarious mate ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/wMWjB17JNiCK5pUPtfmL.gif)
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Post by Boothen on Aug 22, 2018 4:11:50 GMT
One of the best, and funniest, things I ever witnessed was some jumped up traffic cop CS spraying himself in a car and then getting locked in said car. Was hilarious. you know the drill, picture or it didnt happen ![(lol)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/lvpvZ64EmrkLcuVniUmo.gif) hilarious mate ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/wMWjB17JNiCK5pUPtfmL.gif) I would, but it was the 90s and sometime before phones had cameras on them. And besides, it was down near Taunton so if anyone had whipped a phone out they'd have been done for witchcraft. It was funny though, watching him trying to pull that little catch up on the door to get out, a catch that was knackered and required a pair of pliers to open.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 22, 2018 7:22:45 GMT
Not with the peppery stuff. I am contemplating wearing swimming goggles at away games to protect myself from the boys in blue. Maybe everyone should wear a pair ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/KYqg3pYeaerc5lD_P7BR.gif) I really don't think you have understood the gravitas of the situation. Those brave boys spilt their lager for us. To commemorate the "Heroes of Deepdale" I've written to the club asking that a mural be etched on the urinals at the Bet365 stadium depicting the scene in the form of the classic heraldic pose "Phalanx of Knobheads, Flaccid, Sans Googles". That way we can re-enact their selfless sacrifice at every game - unzip, raise receptacle, spray - knobhead facing knob head, vacant, unsuspecting stare about to receive it's comeuppance in noxious peppery unguent form. Lest Wee Forget.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 22, 2018 7:57:50 GMT
It is as inappropriate to generalise about a whole police force from the action of one police officer I'm not sure that's entirely true, Malcolm. Anyone who had any dealings with individuals or small groups of officers from the WMP over a long period of time were well able to decipher that you could do just that! I certainly agree that some police forces have developed a more appropriate and skilled approach to policing football than others ( says he putting it diplomatically! ). Some are much more willing to engage with the FSF than others, and Lancs are to be commended for involving us in this review. I am already a little concerned that our next 5.30 Saturday kickoff is in South Yorkshire. But I don’t think it’s appropriate to generalise from the actions of a single officer in a non football incident.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 8:04:57 GMT
On BBC Breakfast they have just been talking about Police and use of these agents. I missed the start of the piece so not sure if related to Deepdale. They were talking in passing about a 15 year old kid so I'm guessing not.
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Post by metalhead on Aug 22, 2018 13:51:16 GMT
I saw the article in the paper about the child who was caught up in the pepper spray. What a lovely experience for him.
Don't worry though, just a bit of collateral. Coppers are above the law and it doesn't matter how many people get hurt..... justice will be served, one skull crushing baton strike at a time.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 22, 2018 14:09:59 GMT
Maybe everyone should wear a pair ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/KYqg3pYeaerc5lD_P7BR.gif) I really don't think you have understood the gravitas of the situation. Those brave boys spilt their lager for us. To commemorate the "Heroes of Deepdale" I've written to the club asking that a mural be etched on the urinals at the Bet365 stadium depicting the scene in the form of the classic heraldic pose "Phalanx of Knobheads, Flaccid, Sans Googles". That way we can re-enact their selfless sacrifice at every game - unzip, raise receptacle, spray - knobhead facing knob head, vacant, unsuspecting stare about to receive it's comeuppance in noxious peppery unguent form. Lest Wee Forget. Whereas I believe the Lancashire Constabulary will be receiving the, Orgreave Memorial 'just doing our jobs' Proportionality Cup from their South Yorkshire counterparts this week. Don't worry though police fans, the South Yorkshire lads are brewing up their respiratory attacking sprays and sharpening their truncheons as we speak and look forward to regaining their trophy at Hillsbrough in the next couple of weeks. Stoke fans, remember littering is an offence. Expect the full force of the law should you disobey.
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Post by metalhead on Aug 22, 2018 15:13:53 GMT
I really don't think you have understood the gravitas of the situation. Those brave boys spilt their lager for us. To commemorate the "Heroes of Deepdale" I've written to the club asking that a mural be etched on the urinals at the Bet365 stadium depicting the scene in the form of the classic heraldic pose "Phalanx of Knobheads, Flaccid, Sans Googles". That way we can re-enact their selfless sacrifice at every game - unzip, raise receptacle, spray - knobhead facing knob head, vacant, unsuspecting stare about to receive it's comeuppance in noxious peppery unguent form. Lest Wee Forget. Whereas I believe the Lancashire Constabulary will be receiving the, Orgreave Memorial 'just doing our jobs' Proportionality Cup from their South Yorkshire counterparts this week. Don't worry though police fans, the South Yorkshire lads are brewing up their respiratory attacking sprays and sharpening their truncheons as we speak and look forward to regaining their trophy at Hillsbrough in the next couple of weeks. Stoke fans, remember littering is an offence. Expect the full force of the law should you disobey.I'm under no illusions about my trip to Hillsborough in a few weeks. Wednesday fans are apparently talking about 'settling scores' (probably with people who haven't been for 20 years) and yet you just know the coppers are going to be all over Stoke fans like a rash. Give them half a chance and you'll be either getting beaten to within an inch of your life or arrested. I suspect they'll avoid using pepper spray, the last thing they want is to be accused of being a copy cat.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 15:14:39 GMT
They appear to be confusing two incidents. The steward who allegedly was attacked wasn't being attacked at the time they decided to use pepper spray. Neither were the fans who allegedly kicked a door down. We know this because we've seen the footage.
What the statement reads to me is "a handful of Stoke fans were acting like pricks, so we took out retribution 2 minutes later instead of at the time which would have been justifiable".....
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Post by raythesailor on Aug 22, 2018 15:21:17 GMT
Didn’t expect any thing else. Bullshit Gobldygook.
We will never know but I would bet some officers have had a severe bollocking behind closed doors.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 22, 2018 15:52:10 GMT
They appear to be confusing two incidents. The steward who allegedly was attacked wasn't being attacked at the time they decided to use pepper spray. Neither were the fans who allegedly kicked a door down. We know this because we've seen the footage. What the statement reads to me is "a handful of Stoke fans were acting like pricks, so we took out retribution 2 minutes later instead of at the time which would have been justifiable"..... Arse covering lad of balls. Not worth anyone's time or effort. They might as well have said, 'take your peppering and shut the fuck up.'
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Post by adi on Aug 22, 2018 16:26:43 GMT
I saw the article in the paper about the child who was caught up in the pepper spray. What a lovely experience for him. Don't worry though, just a bit of collateral. Coppers are above the law and it doesn't matter how many people get hurt..... justice will be served, one skull crushing baton strike at a time. I’m sure many of the residents of London wouldn’t mind some law enforcement right now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 14:50:43 GMT
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Post by JurgenVandeurzen on Aug 23, 2018 14:52:07 GMT
Wish they'd have had it out last night - rather that than watch that shite!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 23, 2018 15:11:13 GMT
Whereas I believe the Lancashire Constabulary will be receiving the, Orgreave Memorial 'just doing our jobs' Proportionality Cup from their South Yorkshire counterparts this week. Don't worry though police fans, the South Yorkshire lads are brewing up their respiratory attacking sprays and sharpening their truncheons as we speak and look forward to regaining their trophy at Hillsbrough in the next couple of weeks. Stoke fans, remember littering is an offence. Expect the full force of the law should you disobey.I'm under no illusions about my trip to Hillsborough in a few weeks. Wednesday fans are apparently talking about 'settling scores' (probably with people who haven't been for 20 years) and yet you just know the coppers are going to be all over Stoke fans like a rash. Give them half a chance and you'll be either getting beaten to within an inch of your life or arrested. I suspect they'll avoid using pepper spray, the last thing they want is to be accused of being a copy cat. The fact that some posters were in effect comparing the incident at Deepdale to that of places like Orgreave was the point of my post. Were the knobheads of Deepdale defending their jobs and communities? Were they bollocks they were defending their right to behave like knobheads. Turning this incident into some sort of threat to civil liberties - which is what it was in the Orgreave case - is laughable and to compare our "fans" with the striking miners at Orgreave is an insult. I take it you will be ordering flowers for installation alongside the proposed mural to honour our heroes?
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Post by Gods on Aug 23, 2018 15:35:30 GMT
The statement says lessons have been learned but it does not say what lessons ?
Other than that 'difficulties can be experienced communicating effectively in a loud and crowded environment'.
If that is the only lesson then what is the moral of that lesson?
Is it that had the police been better able to communicate among themselves then they would not have attacked fans with pelargonic acid vanillylamide in the first place ? Or perhaps that had they been better able to communicate to the Stoke supporters the need to back off they would not have had to had to incapacitate them in this very chemical way?
I guess it will always be a bit vague when the police investigate the police.
I would imagine if lawyers were involved they would have some proper searching questions:
1.How often if ever has PAVA been fired at the faces of fans at Deepdale? 2.When was it last used and in what circumstances? 3.Do police carry PAVA in all parts of the ground or just the away area? 4.Do they carry PAVA for all visiting teams and if not what is the criteria by which they decide?
Of course the answer to those questions is very likely 'never', 'not before','no' and 'no'. So the follow up might be:
5.What made this instance so uniquely challenging since on the face of it it seems typical of the kind of low level idiocy you get from testosterone and alcohol fueled young males in concourses up and down the land every Saturday?
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Post by skemstokie on Aug 23, 2018 15:49:22 GMT
Trying to kick down a door is a safety hazard and is the action of knobheads when the knobhead supporters accept this i think you will find the use of PAVA will most likely be a thing of the past,act like a dick you get treated like a dick.
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Post by adamsson on Aug 23, 2018 15:55:17 GMT
The statement says lessons have been learned but it does not say what lessons ? Other than that 'difficulties can be experienced communicating effectively in a loud and crowded environment'. If that is the only lesson then what is the moral of that lesson? Is it that had the police been better able to communicate among themselves then they would not have attacked fans with pelargonic acid vanillylamide in the first place ? Or perhaps that had they been better able to communicate to the Stoke supporters the need to back off they would not have had to had to incapacitate them in this very chemical way? I guess it will always be a bit vague when the police investigate the police. I would imagine if lawyers were involved they would have some proper searching questions: 1.How often if ever has PAVA been fired at the faces of fans at Deepdale? 2.When was it last used and in what circumstances? 3.Do police carry PAVA in all parts of the ground or just the away area? 4.Do they carry PAVA for all visiting teams and if not what is the criteria by which they decide? Of course the answer to those questions is very likely 'never', 'not before','no' and 'no'. So the follow up might be: 5.What made this instance so uniquely challenging since on the face of it it seems typical of the kind of low level idiocy you get from testosterone and alcohol fueled young males in concourses up and down the land every Saturday? The lesson is watch out for people filming you on mobile phones.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 23, 2018 16:48:24 GMT
Trying to kick down a door is a safety hazard and is the action of knobheads when the knobhead supporters accept this i think you will find the use of PAVA will most likely be a thing of the past,act like a dick you get treated like a dick. So you're saying that the pepper spraying by the police was actually retribution for the attempted kicking down of the door at some point earlier?
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Post by skemstokie on Aug 23, 2018 17:01:18 GMT
I am saying if you act like dicks you get treated as dicks .
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Post by raythesailor on Aug 23, 2018 17:06:20 GMT
I thought we had stopped locking supporters in stadiums after Bradford.
A few guys wanting to go out for a smoke could have been easily handled by two bobbys with a smile and a joke.
I know we like many others have our share of idiots but this could have been so easily handled.
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Post by metalhead on Aug 23, 2018 17:10:12 GMT
I'm under no illusions about my trip to Hillsborough in a few weeks. Wednesday fans are apparently talking about 'settling scores' (probably with people who haven't been for 20 years) and yet you just know the coppers are going to be all over Stoke fans like a rash. Give them half a chance and you'll be either getting beaten to within an inch of your life or arrested. I suspect they'll avoid using pepper spray, the last thing they want is to be accused of being a copy cat. The fact that some posters were in effect comparing the incident at Deepdale to that of places like Orgreave was the point of my post. Were the knobheads of Deepdale defending their jobs and communities? Were they bollocks they were defending their right to behave like knobheads. Turning this incident into some sort of threat to civil liberties - which is what it was in the Orgreave case - is laughable and to compare our "fans" with the striking miners at Orgreave is an insult. I take it you will be ordering flowers for installation alongside the proposed mural to honour our heroes? would you like a side of chips with your sarcasm? There's limited actual content to your post to actually reply to, so I don't know what you're expecting me to say tbh.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 23, 2018 17:23:39 GMT
I'm under no illusions about my trip to Hillsborough in a few weeks. Wednesday fans are apparently talking about 'settling scores' (probably with people who haven't been for 20 years) and yet you just know the coppers are going to be all over Stoke fans like a rash. Give them half a chance and you'll be either getting beaten to within an inch of your life or arrested. I suspect they'll avoid using pepper spray, the last thing they want is to be accused of being a copy cat. The fact that some posters were in effect comparing the incident at Deepdale to that of places like Orgreave was the point of my post. Were the knobheads of Deepdale defending their jobs and communities? Were they bollocks they were defending their right to behave like knobheads. Turning this incident into some sort of threat to civil liberties - which is what it was in the Orgreave case - is laughable and to compare our "fans" with the striking miners at Orgreave is an insult. I take it you will be ordering flowers for installation alongside the proposed mural to honour our heroes? I still, in almost a week, haven't seen anyone defend the fans or not acknowledge that, when we have large followings in particular, we have a problem with general dickishness. This is not a binary issue. Stop fucking making it one. Many Stoke fans were dicks, the Police response was entirely unacceptable and over the top verging on the despicable. Both things can be true.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 2:47:57 GMT
Now I'm not necessarily saying I agree that its a generalisation of all Lancashire police, nor would I necessarily agree with that generalisation. That said, however, You've made a few too many oversimplifications in your comparison. For example: Police DO generalise football fans, not just the small majority of fans, when everything is calm and peaceful it's policing by consent and being helpful etc. But when any bit of kick off happens, you don't want to be in the wrong place with any PC because they will absolutely switch to view you in relation to the group you're attached to, no longer as an individual. They always have and when they get it wrong its slapping girls and pepper spraying kids. - Let's be clear it wasn't the action of 'One' officer at PNE. There have been at least 2 instances of Lancs Police being over-zealous not one in the last week. Police close ranks around their own - just look at the Hillsborough verdict today, which means when a PC 'slaps' a girl in the face like that, had it not been caught on video he gets away with being paid by taxpayers to do it. It did get caught on video and he'll probably end up with a slap on the wrist at most if anything, As I fully expect Sergeant Pepper and his band of itchy-fingered peace-upholders to walk away with. So the comparison here to football fans? If Stoke fans generalise the police, they might think they're a bunch of pepper spraying heavy handed prison guards in waiting, or maybe the chords of mystic trust between your average fan and your average PC become strained. Well, so fucking what? How inappropriate indeed...If Stoke fans try and close ranks around their own, They get arrested or pepper sprayed. Neither group are going to stop generalising each other and here's why. Police have a uniform, to signify their powers on match days. Let's say you walked into the pepper spraying incident WITHOUT generalising, how's that going to go for you? It's categorically common sense for either group to be wary of the other for a whole host of reason - namely history and the very specific relations that have been developed of the tried and tested practice of matchday experience vs matchday policing. So you can make a pretty accurate consideration which will actually help you keep safe when identifying police on matchday: Presume the worst because they will close ranks, if things get ugly, even if it's not your fault or you're innocent you could still end up getting pepper sprayed or worse. You can Guarantee they'd generalise when you're on the other side of it, as they did when pepper spraying a child. Policing by consent went right out of the window and it was just pure crowd control. Your posts have mostly been sensible on this thread, But I take issue with you telling people what is and isn't appropriate, considering who fell foul of both situations. Hang on. Your first sentence indicates that you agree with the only point I made in my post 👍 I don’t actually disagree with quite a lot of the rest but it doesn’t refute my rather simple point. Well yes, You've understood my point to a degree. I can agree your initial comment about generalisation logically. Rather, what I referred to as oversimplifying was your comparison of generalising of fans by police, and police by fans, which appeared to show both generalisations as holding equal value and therefore being of equal importance in an argument. Which as I tried to point out is false if claimed, or rejected if believed, due to the consequences of acting on considering equal weighting. The reason I went into depth is to show that there isn't the same value of equivalence to each generalisation, and further, it's unwise to advise people of whats appropriate to generalise based on that value status of equal comparison. We disagree that people shouldn't generalise Police at matchdays... You said: " This kind of generalisation is not helpful. It is as inappropriate to generalise about a whole police force as it would be for the police to generalise about Stoke fans " This is advice is unfortunately false equivocacy and is not appropriate subject matter to advice people on.
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Post by metalhead on Aug 24, 2018 12:30:50 GMT
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Post by desman2 on Aug 24, 2018 12:35:52 GMT
I remember in the day when you got one copper standing among all the louts on the boothen. When it turned nasty he just waded in and dragged out the offending twat and marched him off down the front. Now they all just group together like a bunch of cowardly muppets.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Aug 24, 2018 12:40:16 GMT
I remember in the day when you got one copper standing among all the louts on the boothen. When it turned nasty he just waded in and dragged out the offending twat and marched him off down the front. Now they all just group together like a bunch of cowardly muppets. It works both ways though mate. Unlike in the 'good old days' if a single copper waded in to a bunch of 'louts' today the cowardly muppets would turn on him giving him a right shoeing.
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