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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 22:57:12 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 13, 2018 22:57:12 GMT
Is it fair to speculate just how much of Hughes' initial success here was actually down to to the fact that he had N'Zonzi in his team, a bit like Rodgers with Suarez at Liverpool? Perfectly fair. The transfer window after he left was the beginning of the end. Didn't we sign Van Winkle as his replacement? Apologies if my memory has failed me again!
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Post by Pugsley on Mar 13, 2018 22:57:43 GMT
Is it fair to speculate just how much of Hughes' initial success here was actually down to to the fact that he had N'Zonzi in his team, a bit like Rodgers with Suarez at Liverpool? Woe betide a manager having a good player in his ranks and making the most of it. If Hughes is to blame for our current predicament (and he is, but not solely) then he has to take the plaudits for making us a decent side to watch in his first three seasons.
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 13, 2018 23:04:40 GMT
What gets me about Nzonzi is when he played for us he wasn't terribly well appreciated. Home to Newcastle United 2014/15 I had a return to my youth because I started arguing with a bloke nearby me. Apparently the reason Steve always passed backwards was because he's a "backwards French cunt who needs to be fucked off" The crowd let out a collective groan a few minutes later when Steve passed sideways but it was the move that led to Crouchy's winner so that stopped everyone moaning at him for half an hour. Second half with a lead to defend and pegged back Nzonzi was again getting the blame. They reckoned was his passes that kept us under the cosh and the crowd weren't shy of letting him know it. Of course he could have twatted it forward and we lose the ball but that was a preposterous thing to add to the equation and I was told so in no uncertain terms. Next was away to Sunderland and we played pretty crap really and got beaten. BUT plenty of the Stokies in the upper tier knew whose fault it was. It was Steve's. I went for a half time piss and there was a lad venting his Nzonzi rage and decided he was only in the team because "he must do a fucking good blow job". Horrible things to say about your own players but that's how many saw him. Just a lucky lazy plodder. Of course in reality he's a smart player keeping the ball and fully aware of his role but sometimes that's lost on people So now when I see so many of us furious about him being elsewhere and doing well it's worth wondering why he wasn't fully accepted by lots of us until he left. Its sadly true, he wasn't valued at our club by many, but I think he really was by others. He had a similar transformative effect on the team as Hudson (sorry to harp on about the even more remote past!), he completely changed our game and transformed players around him. Whelan's game improved beyond recognition. we saw the best of Whelan with Nzonzi, suddenly Whelan could keep possession. Nzonzi creates time and space with the ball. It is an artform. There is no hope for those who don't recognise these things and value them, and, at the risk of sounding patronising, I feel sorry for them, because they are missing a fascinating part of the jigsaw of football.
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:06:07 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 13, 2018 23:06:07 GMT
Is it fair to speculate just how much of Hughes' initial success here was actually down to to the fact that he had N'Zonzi in his team, a bit like Rodgers with Suarez at Liverpool? Woe betide a manager having a good player in his ranks and making the most of it. If Hughes is to blame for our current predicament (and he is, but not solely) then he has to take the plaudits for making us a decent side to watch in his first three seasons. But was his actual initial success as a manager over inflated due to him having a superstar in his team, in the same way that it was with Rodgers having Suarez available at Liverpool? Once those players departed, both managers then began to look a little bit more ordinary.
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:09:02 GMT
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Gifton likes this
Post by johnnysoul60 on Mar 13, 2018 23:09:02 GMT
He loves the big games like tonight. His challenge is to get up for the bread and butter ones . He is a top talent but when you see the attitude of top players he needs that level of spirit to reach his potential .
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:10:21 GMT
Post by Pugsley on Mar 13, 2018 23:10:21 GMT
Woe betide a manager having a good player in his ranks and making the most of it. If Hughes is to blame for our current predicament (and he is, but not solely) then he has to take the plaudits for making us a decent side to watch in his first three seasons. But was his actual initial success as a manager over inflated due to him having a superstar in his team, in the same way that it was with Rodgers having Suarez available at Liverpool? Once those players departed, both managers began to look a little bit more ordinary. Still has to get the best out of them. Do you think Citeh last night just strolled out on the pitch and played off the cuff? Their team has more superstars than you can shake a stick at but they are incredibly well coached and motivated. I find the mealy mouthed comments about Hughes's three ninth placed finishes a bit sad.
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:11:41 GMT
Post by benjaminbiscuit on Mar 13, 2018 23:11:41 GMT
Sadl6 I said at the time I’d keep him he’d hsve signed and then with a proper release , if he didn’t what’s 6m we are about lose £100m per annum revenue by following the self sustainable policy this deal heralded He wouldn't have signed. From the moment he arrived he was after a move. But we didn’t have to sell him when we did for a paltry fee , just another example of woeful commercial management , do you think he’d have left spurs for the same fee in the middle of the window
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Post by alster on Mar 13, 2018 23:12:19 GMT
Class.
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:13:50 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 13, 2018 23:13:50 GMT
But was his actual initial success as a manager over inflated due to him having a superstar in his team, in the same way that it was with Rodgers having Suarez available at Liverpool? Once those players departed, both managers began to look a little bit more ordinary. Still has to get the best out of them. Do you think Citeh last night just strolled out on the pitch and played off the cuff? Their team has more superstars than you can shake a stick at but they are incredibly well coached and motivated. I find the mealy mouthed comments about Hughes's three ninth placed finishes a bit sad. I think you're missing my point, you've already done it once and now you're doing it again, I know you'll say that you aren't but hey, I'm convinced that you are.
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:18:39 GMT
Post by Pugsley on Mar 13, 2018 23:18:39 GMT
Still has to get the best out of them. Do you think Citeh last night just strolled out on the pitch and played off the cuff? Their team has more superstars than you can shake a stick at but they are incredibly well coached and motivated. I find the mealy mouthed comments about Hughes's three ninth placed finishes a bit sad. I think you're missing my point, you've already done it once and now you're doing it again, I know you'll say that you aren't but hey, I'm convinced that you are. What is your point? Hughes only did well because he had good players? No fucking shit sherlock.
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:31:33 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 13, 2018 23:31:33 GMT
I think you're missing my point, you've already done it once and now you're doing it again, I know you'll say that you aren't but hey, I'm convinced that you are. What is your point? Hughes only did well because he had good players? No fucking shit sherlock. When Liverpool came within a hairs breadth of winning the title for the first time in decades, AT THE TIME, many people thought it was due to Rodgers being an amazing manager but history now sees it somewhat differently, it being more about Suarez being in the team at the time, rather than Rodgers actually being a great manager. I'm asking can the same comparison be drawn with Hughes and N'Zonzi on reflection? Of course they both had to get the best out of each player at the time but that isn't what my point has about.
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:35:16 GMT
Post by Pugsley on Mar 13, 2018 23:35:16 GMT
What is your point? Hughes only did well because he had good players? No fucking shit sherlock. When Liverpool came within a hairs breadth of winning the title for the first time in decades, AT THE TIME, many people thought it was due to Rodgers being an amazing manager but history now sees it somewhat differently, it being more about Suarez being in the team at the time, rathet than Rodgers actually being a great manager. I'm asking can the same comparison be drawn with Hughes and N'Zonzi on reflection? Of course they both had to get the best out of each player at the time but that isn't what my point has about. Honestly mate, I don't think you have a point. Why didn't Dalglish (a great of the game) do the same with Suarez?
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:45:48 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 13, 2018 23:45:48 GMT
When Liverpool came within a hairs breadth of winning the title for the first time in decades, AT THE TIME, many people thought it was due to Rodgers being an amazing manager but history now sees it somewhat differently, it being more about Suarez being in the team at the time, rathet than Rodgers actually being a great manager. I'm asking can the same comparison be drawn with Hughes and N'Zonzi on reflection? Of course they both had to get the best out of each player at the time but that isn't what my point has about. Honestly mate, I don't think you have a point. Why didn't Dalglish (a great of the game) do the same with Suarez? You're still missing it ... Sometimes a player can be so good, it transcends who the manager actually is at the time and their presence in that team ALONE can make the manager seem better than he actually is. Rodgers didn't suddenly turn Suarez into a fantastic player and Hughes didn't do that with N'Zonzi either. Both managers didn't last particularly long once either player had left either.
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Post by Gods on Mar 13, 2018 23:54:20 GMT
Is it fair to speculate just how much of Hughes' initial success here was actually down to to the fact that he had N'Zonzi in his team, a bit like Rodgers with Suarez at Liverpool? I've said it at least 10 times on here since he left. The Zonz was the beating heart of the Hughes revolution.
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Nzonzi
Mar 13, 2018 23:55:04 GMT
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Post by ParaPsych on Mar 13, 2018 23:55:04 GMT
Honestly mate, I don't think you have a point. Why didn't Dalglish (a great of the game) do the same with Suarez? You're still missing it ... Sometimes a player can be so good, it transcends who the manager actually is at the time and their presence in that team ALONE can make the manager seem better than he actually is. Rodgers didn't suddenly turn Suarez into a fantastic player and Hughes didn't do that with N'Zonzi either. Both managers didn't last particularly long once either player had left either. Have you ever had a discussion where you haven't said someone is missing your point?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 13, 2018 23:57:31 GMT
You're still missing it ... Sometimes a player can be so good, it transcends who the manager actually is at the time and their presence in that team ALONE can make the manager seem better than he actually is. Rodgers didn't suddenly turn Suarez into a fantastic player and Hughes didn't do that with N'Zonzi either. Both managers didn't last particularly long once either player had left either. Have you ever had a discussion where you haven't said someone is missing your point? Probably not, I really am absolutely wank at articulating what I want to say ...
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Post by ParaPsych on Mar 13, 2018 23:57:57 GMT
Have you ever had a discussion where you haven't said someone is missing your point? Probably not, I really am absolutely wank at articulating what I want to say ... It's a bad habit.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 14, 2018 0:00:05 GMT
Probably not, I really am absolutely wank at articulating what I want to say ... It's a bad habit. You've clearly missed my point!
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Post by ParaPsych on Mar 14, 2018 0:01:08 GMT
It's a bad habit. You've clearly missed my point! Ignored, yes. Missed, no.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 14, 2018 0:02:30 GMT
You've clearly missed my point! Ignored, yes. Missed, no. Well you absolutely haven't ignored me.
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Post by ParaPsych on Mar 14, 2018 0:06:31 GMT
Ignored, yes. Missed, no. Well you absolutely haven't ignored me. Oh no absolutely not, but you've missed my point. OH SHIT
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Nzonzi
Mar 14, 2018 0:17:37 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 14, 2018 0:17:37 GMT
Well you absolutely haven't ignored me. Oh no absolutely not, but you've missed my point. OH SHIT I'm not really sure what it is you're attempting to contribute to the thread. Since you've arrived, it's just been, including my replies (and I hold my hands up) pure spam. But hey, if you think that's what people want to read, then please, crack on ...
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hoopty
Youth Player
Posts: 431
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Post by hoopty on Mar 14, 2018 0:21:57 GMT
N'Zonzi took a pay cut to leave us because he wanted nights like this. Who can begrudge him that? The muppets in this aren't the Stoke board for not signing him on a contract he would never have signed. The real muppets are the top four clubs in the UK who didn't see what a huge talent he was when playing for us. We knew it. We could see it.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 14, 2018 0:52:54 GMT
Oh no absolutely not, but you've missed my point. OH SHIT I'm not really sure what it is you're attempting to contribute to the thread. Since you've arrived, it's just been, including my replies (and I hold my hands up) pure spam. But hey, if you think that's what people want to read, then please, crack on ... I took it as good natured banter and quite enjoyed it.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Mar 14, 2018 0:54:38 GMT
Fantastic player, it all started to go to shit when he left.
I remember having many arguments with people on here who said he was just average.
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Post by supersimonstainrod on Mar 14, 2018 1:22:00 GMT
Is it fair to speculate just how much of Hughes' initial success here was actually down to to the fact that he had N'Zonzi in his team, a bit like Rodgers with Suarez at Liverpool? I think there was a definite symbiosis at work,he saw more of the he ball under Hughes and that benefitted the other ball players in our side too. I've never seen a Stoke player so comfortable receiving the ball and creating time and space for himself when surrounded by opposition players,and this ability to draw opponents to him and calmly transition the play created space for others in our team. I'd like to think that Hughes's contribution was a bit more than merely picking his best eleven and telling them to get on with it,but unequivocally N'zonzi made the more accomplished performances possible.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2018 1:35:05 GMT
Is it fair to speculate just how much of Hughes' initial success here was actually down to to the fact that he had N'Zonzi in his team, a bit like Rodgers with Suarez at Liverpool? Perfectly fair. The transfer window after he left was the beginning of the end. Didn't we sign Van Winkle as his replacement? Apologies if my memory has failed me again! But when we reached the peaks of Stokealona Steve had left.
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Post by tuum on Mar 14, 2018 2:29:10 GMT
Backwards and sideways eh ...... Who were the football wizards on this board who used to say that ? Let's not rewrite history. Nzonzi did play it backwards and sideways for a large part of his time at Stoke. He also failed to move the ball quickly. He was more adventurous under Hughes. Not sure if that was down to the player, the managers or a bit of both. Two things that were always consistent with Nzonzi were (1) his coolness on the ball allowing him to create space for himself and (2) he very rarely gave the ball away.
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Nzonzi
Mar 14, 2018 3:09:40 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 14, 2018 3:09:40 GMT
Perfectly fair. The transfer window after he left was the beginning of the end. Didn't we sign Van Winkle as his replacement? Apologies if my memory has failed me again! But when we reached the peaks of Stokealona Steve had left. True, but it was a brief interlude. I think our most consistently good football was during his time here. Glad he's doing well.
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Nzonzi
Mar 14, 2018 3:13:07 GMT
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hoopty likes this
Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 14, 2018 3:13:07 GMT
N'Zonzi took a pay cut to leave us because he wanted nights like this. Who can begrudge him that? The muppets in this aren't the Stoke board for not signing him on a contract he would never have signed. The real muppets are the top four clubs in the UK who didn't see what a huge talent he was when playing for us. We knew it. We could see it. I always thought he was tailor made for Arsenal.
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