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Post by maxplonk on Jan 5, 2024 18:53:21 GMT
Just when I was starting to think they couldn't become any more loathsome... nothing wrong at all with that sentiment. lets see if her actions speak louder than words Isn't she a bit late to the party? Doing a Johnson, she is: sees which way the wind is blowing then shouts "follow me"!
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Post by muggleton on Jan 5, 2024 19:38:27 GMT
There's an element of collective embarrassment among people who enthusiastically backed the Tories and Brexit that'll lead to many of them staying home next time. Lots of them will convince themselves of the plague on all your houses line, but in reality it'll be down to embarrassment at getting taken in by such obvious chancers previously. And by staying home they'll be doing the country a favour. So 17,410,742 voters, largely traditional working class voters, not at all embarrassed, but frustrated(as most people on the Oatcake seem to be), should stay at home and leave it to the others who of course know best. That will help and sums up the new arrogant lefties or rather those who think they are on the left.....but don't actually listen any more, just judge and preach. No, not 17m. I'm specifically talking about the cohort who backed Brexit as a gateway drug into backing the Tories, and have been left with buyer's remorse. Lots of these will sit out the next election out of embarrassment at being taken in by such obvious chancers, and that'll do both them and the rest of us a favour. People frustrated at getting what they voted for are encountering the consequences of their actions. None of them will pay any attention to me, and they're entitled to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. But we both know that large numbers won't, wiping up the local Tories who carpet-bagged on Brexit to get elected in seats they won't be seen in for dust post election.
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Post by muggleton on Jan 5, 2024 19:42:59 GMT
Tom Hingley (ex Inspiral Carpets) just posted that he can not leave Keele because they are not let anyone on or off due to Rishi Sunak is going around the service station as if hes the man of the people This is how is feels to be small...
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 5, 2024 19:50:59 GMT
Tom Hingley (ex Inspiral Carpets) just posted that he can not leave Keele because they are not let anyone on or off due to Rishi Sunak is going around the service station as if hes the man of the people This is how is feels to be small... And indeed “when your word means nothing at all”.
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 5, 2024 20:04:31 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2024 20:39:33 GMT
So 17,410,742 voters, largely traditional working class voters, not at all embarrassed, but frustrated(as most people on the Oatcake seem to be), should stay at home and leave it to the others who of course know best. That will help and sums up the new arrogant lefties or rather those who think they are on the left.....but don't actually listen any more, just judge and preach. No, not 17m. I'm specifically talking about the cohort who backed Brexit as a gateway drug into backing the Tories, and have been left with buyer's remorse. Lots of these will sit out the next election out of embarrassment at being taken in by such obvious chancers, and that'll do both them and the rest of us a favour. People frustrated at getting what they voted for are encountering the consequences of their actions. None of them will pay any attention to me, and they're entitled to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. But we both know that large numbers won't, wiping up the local Tories who carpet-bagged on Brexit to get elected in seats they won't be seen in for dust post election. Labour missed a once in a lifetime opportunity to change British politics, and have reverted to their establishment conformity and now stand for very little...except the status quo. It's a shame Corbyn could not have stuck to his conviction and took the motivated 17 m , largely working class, with him. Never mind.
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Post by fullmetaljacket on Jan 5, 2024 21:12:50 GMT
What's the saying? A lot of truth said in jest.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jan 5, 2024 21:17:13 GMT
May as well get that election called.
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Post by gawa on Jan 5, 2024 23:55:53 GMT
No, not 17m. I'm specifically talking about the cohort who backed Brexit as a gateway drug into backing the Tories, and have been left with buyer's remorse. Lots of these will sit out the next election out of embarrassment at being taken in by such obvious chancers, and that'll do both them and the rest of us a favour. People frustrated at getting what they voted for are encountering the consequences of their actions. None of them will pay any attention to me, and they're entitled to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. But we both know that large numbers won't, wiping up the local Tories who carpet-bagged on Brexit to get elected in seats they won't be seen in for dust post election. Labour missed a once in a lifetime opportunity to change British politics, and have reverted to their establishment conformity and now stand for very little...except the status quo. It's a shame Corbyn could not have stuck to his conviction and took the motivated 17 m , largely working class, with him. Never mind. Sorry but I disagree John. Corbyn lost the election through a smear campaign, not to do with brexit. You ask people why they didn't vote or dont like Corbyn and many of them say its because he's a terrorist sympathiser, an antisemite, a security risk etc.. Some may say brexit but it's not the majority. In terms of brexit the greatest correlation between how people voted is age not class. Every single age group from 18-21 upwards slowly voted more and more for brexit. When it comes to wealth its actually the wealthiest who voted for brexit and the poorest who voted against it. If you base it on graduates then I agree you could argue that the working class voted for brexit. But being a graduate in the 21st century does not mean you're not working class. And given there are much more graduates under 40 than over 40, this is pretty much just another way of saying more young people voted against brexit. I didn't vote in the referendum as I was too busy partying and not following politics. So I can't complain myself about the outcome. I don't believe corbyn followed establishment conformity either, he very much did the opposite hench the smear campaign. Starmer, Brown, Blair or Milliband yes I can agree but not Corbyn. The most revolutionary leader of one of the big two in our recent history in my opinion. I agree though that saying "they're too embarrassed to vote" or being pompous and acting like a know it all doesn't help at all. Same goes for all the arguments/discussions related to covid and other divisive topics. Corbyn did say he would have another referendum on brexit so I can understand why some people may not have liked this but I don't fully understand why aside from "it's not respecting the vote". Much of the vote was based on lies though, was our NHS not meant to be millions of pounds a week better off according to a big bus? But now the NHS is on its knees. Is it such a bad thing to have a secondary vote when you know actual details of the transaction? The one good thing from brexit is it's given alot of lessons for United Ireland referendum and I believe campaigners are now very much going to do the leg work and work out the details and impacts of an Irish unity vote before putting it towards the population rather than being asked whether you want a united Ireland or not and then finding out after the vote that it also means you'll lose your uk pension and your health care will now cost £200 a month. Again I'd like to reiterate that I agree with alot of what you say but I also disagree with some points too. I think brexit of course has potential benefits too but I think the way it's been handled and managed has been an absolute disaster and as a result of that it's put us in a weaker position on the world stage as we're going into trade discussions with other countries already knowing our hand. And here we are 8 years on and America with our "special relationship" still haven't agreed a trade deal. Long term hopefully things will work out but due to the management of it along with other global issues such as covid and conflict it's left us in a weaker position in the interim in my view. I hope things improve but I struggle to have any confidence in any of the current party leaders to make those positive changes we desperately need. I'm a corbyn fan boy though and I'll continue to believe things would have been better under him. That's the one benefit of a vote not going your way, the result is unknown. Maybe things would have been worse if we stayed in the EU. Maybe things would have been worse if Corbyn got in power. We don't know though as it's unknown. I wish we had a better alternative or someone who inspires confidence to lead us forward but we don't. All I can hope for now is the tories are voted out as it at least shows the public are holding them accountable and letting them know our disproval. I sort of hope to see a surge in Lib Dem, Green and Reform votes too to show that the British public are tired of this two horse pro establishment race and to strike fear in them to make the reform we so urgently need. But who knows. Hope none of the above comes across in a bad way towards you. I don't feel I'm being a know it all or anything and I don't intend to but I think we all sometimes can like a bit of self awareness and things maybe come across differently to how we intend.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 6, 2024 0:06:27 GMT
Labour missed a once in a lifetime opportunity to change British politics, and have reverted to their establishment conformity and now stand for very little...except the status quo. It's a shame Corbyn could not have stuck to his conviction and took the motivated 17 m , largely working class, with him. Never mind. Sorry but I disagree John. Corbyn lost the election through a smear campaign, not to do with brexit. You ask people why they didn't vote or dont like Corbyn and many of them say its because he's a terrorist sympathiser, an antisemite, a security risk etc.. Some may say brexit but it's not the majority. In terms of brexit the greatest correlation between how people voted is age not class. Every single age group from 18-21 upwards slowly voted more and more for brexit. When it comes to wealth its actually the wealthiest who voted for brexit and the poorest who voted against it. If you base it on graduates then I agree you could argue that the working class voted for brexit. But being a graduate in the 21st century does not mean you're not working class. And given there are much more graduates under 40 than over 40, this is pretty much just another way of saying more young people voted against brexit. I didn't vote in the referendum as I was too busy partying and not following politics. So I can't complain myself about the outcome. I don't believe corbyn followed establishment conformity either, he very much did the opposite hench the smear campaign. Starmer, Brown, Blair or Milliband yes I can agree but not Corbyn. The most revolutionary leader of one of the big two in our recent history in my opinion. I agree though that saying "they're too embarrassed to vote" or being pompous and acting like a know it all doesn't help at all. Same goes for all the arguments/discussions related to covid and other divisive topics. Corbyn did say he would have another referendum on brexit so I can understand why some people may not have liked this but I don't fully understand why aside from "it's not respecting the vote". Much of the vote was based on lies though, was our NHS not meant to be millions of pounds a week better off according to a big bus? But now the NHS is on its knees. Is it such a bad thing to have a secondary vote when you know actual details of the transaction? The one good thing from brexit is it's given alot of lessons for United Ireland referendum and I believe campaigners are now very much going to do the leg work and work out the details and impacts of an Irish unity vote before putting it towards the population rather than being asked whether you want a united Ireland or not and then finding out after the vote that it also means you'll lose your uk pension and your health care will now cost £200 a month. Again I'd like to reiterate that I agree with alot of what you say but I also disagree with some points too. I think brexit of course has potential benefits too but I think the way it's been handled and managed has been an absolute disaster and as a result of that it's put us in a weaker position on the world stage as we're going into trade discussions with other countries already knowing our hand. And here we are 8 years on and America with our "special relationship" still haven't agreed a trade deal. Long term hopefully things will work out but due to the management of it along with other global issues such as covid and conflict it's left us in a weaker position in the interim in my view. I hope things improve but I struggle to have any confidence in any of the current party leaders to make those positive changes we desperately need. I'm a corbyn fan boy though and I'll continue to believe things would have been better under him. That's the one benefit of a vote not going your way, the result is unknown. Maybe things would have been worse if we stayed in the EU. Maybe things would have been worse if Corbyn got in power. We don't know though as it's unknown. I wish we had a better alternative or someone who inspires confidence to lead us forward but we don't. All I can hope for now is the tories are voted out as it at least shows the public are holding them accountable and letting them know our disproval. I sort of hope to see a surge in Lib Dem, Green and Reform votes too to show that the British public are tired of this two horse pro establishment race and to strike fear in them to make the reform we so urgently need. But who knows. Hope none of the above comes across in a bad way towards you. I don't feel I'm being a know it all or anything and I don't intend to but I think we all sometimes can like a bit of self awareness and things maybe come across differently to how we intend. An excellent post Gawa, but I don't believe that the left wing case for Brexit was ever made in any way shape or form. Brexit was not a party political issue. If anything it has been a trading left wing issue, tied up with democracy, representation. To make the case from the front would have taken real leadership and courage. To me that is where Corbyn, the Left and Labour failed....weren't even in the game.....and still aren't in terms of achieving any significant change. If the case had been made , there's no telling what difference it would make to the statistics.....and with a large motivated working class for once, perhaps something could have been achieved. In my opinion, Stoke turned blue because of Brexit, if Corbyn had led on this, he could have done so as a conviction politician rather than an opportunist Johnson. Imo of course ( I'll perhaps have a closer look at your statistics tomorrow)
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Post by gawa on Jan 6, 2024 1:51:28 GMT
Sorry but I disagree John. Corbyn lost the election through a smear campaign, not to do with brexit. You ask people why they didn't vote or dont like Corbyn and many of them say its because he's a terrorist sympathiser, an antisemite, a security risk etc.. Some may say brexit but it's not the majority. In terms of brexit the greatest correlation between how people voted is age not class. Every single age group from 18-21 upwards slowly voted more and more for brexit. When it comes to wealth its actually the wealthiest who voted for brexit and the poorest who voted against it. If you base it on graduates then I agree you could argue that the working class voted for brexit. But being a graduate in the 21st century does not mean you're not working class. And given there are much more graduates under 40 than over 40, this is pretty much just another way of saying more young people voted against brexit. I didn't vote in the referendum as I was too busy partying and not following politics. So I can't complain myself about the outcome. I don't believe corbyn followed establishment conformity either, he very much did the opposite hench the smear campaign. Starmer, Brown, Blair or Milliband yes I can agree but not Corbyn. The most revolutionary leader of one of the big two in our recent history in my opinion. I agree though that saying "they're too embarrassed to vote" or being pompous and acting like a know it all doesn't help at all. Same goes for all the arguments/discussions related to covid and other divisive topics. Corbyn did say he would have another referendum on brexit so I can understand why some people may not have liked this but I don't fully understand why aside from "it's not respecting the vote". Much of the vote was based on lies though, was our NHS not meant to be millions of pounds a week better off according to a big bus? But now the NHS is on its knees. Is it such a bad thing to have a secondary vote when you know actual details of the transaction? The one good thing from brexit is it's given alot of lessons for United Ireland referendum and I believe campaigners are now very much going to do the leg work and work out the details and impacts of an Irish unity vote before putting it towards the population rather than being asked whether you want a united Ireland or not and then finding out after the vote that it also means you'll lose your uk pension and your health care will now cost £200 a month. Again I'd like to reiterate that I agree with alot of what you say but I also disagree with some points too. I think brexit of course has potential benefits too but I think the way it's been handled and managed has been an absolute disaster and as a result of that it's put us in a weaker position on the world stage as we're going into trade discussions with other countries already knowing our hand. And here we are 8 years on and America with our "special relationship" still haven't agreed a trade deal. Long term hopefully things will work out but due to the management of it along with other global issues such as covid and conflict it's left us in a weaker position in the interim in my view. I hope things improve but I struggle to have any confidence in any of the current party leaders to make those positive changes we desperately need. I'm a corbyn fan boy though and I'll continue to believe things would have been better under him. That's the one benefit of a vote not going your way, the result is unknown. Maybe things would have been worse if we stayed in the EU. Maybe things would have been worse if Corbyn got in power. We don't know though as it's unknown. I wish we had a better alternative or someone who inspires confidence to lead us forward but we don't. All I can hope for now is the tories are voted out as it at least shows the public are holding them accountable and letting them know our disproval. I sort of hope to see a surge in Lib Dem, Green and Reform votes too to show that the British public are tired of this two horse pro establishment race and to strike fear in them to make the reform we so urgently need. But who knows. Hope none of the above comes across in a bad way towards you. I don't feel I'm being a know it all or anything and I don't intend to but I think we all sometimes can like a bit of self awareness and things maybe come across differently to how we intend. An excellent post Gawa, but I don't believe that the left wing case for Brexit was ever made in any way shape or form. Brexit was not a party political issue. If anything it has been a trading left wing issue, tied up with democracy, representation. To make the case from the front would have taken real leadership and courage. To me that is where Corbyn, the Left and Labour failed....weren't even in the game.....and still aren't in terms of achieving any significant change. If the case had been made , there's no telling what difference it would make to the statistics.....and with a large motivated working class for once, perhaps something could have been achieved. In my opinion, Stoke turned blue because of Brexit, if Corbyn had led on this, he could have done so as a conviction politician rather than an opportunist Johnson. Imo of course ( I'll perhaps have a closer look at your statistics tomorrow) I agree that we lacked a left wing pro brexit view and I think alot of that comes back to the two horse race we have become accustomed to too. Whereby if there is a divisive issue with a fairly even split and one of the big two parties goes one side then the other tends to go the other side. I guess in doing so it helps keep them both as the two largest parties too. As Cameron won the 2015 election off the back of promising a referendum it sort of setup the conservatives to back brexit because they were voted in on the back of a promise to have a referendum and people wouldn't vote for them, for a referendum, unless they wanted to vote for change. So in some ways I think Corbyns position was decided for him because had he also been pro brexit then there would be 49% (or whatever voted to remain) of those who voted who would be disillusioned by both tory and Labour. And I'm not sure if being pro brexit would have won him over much of the leave vote or enough to put up a challenge. I am bias though towards corbyn so I know my views are probably a bit blinded and impartial. And I can understand why people didn't like him or have confidence in him but for me he gave hope. Like I said before though things could easily have turned out worse under his leadership too. Just because it's unknown doesn't mean it would have been better. But my bias part of me thinks it would have been. The ship has sailed for now though and so I must move on. As for labour I agree in the sense about not being in the game in terms of significant change. Starmer at times has given trinkets of hope such as pledging to scrap the house of Lords before then back tracking on his commitment or when he will action it. And my greatest worry is he gets in power and doesn't have any radical or breath of fresh air changes which are much needed because if that happens then it very much backs up the whole "all politicians are the same" rhetoric we often hear. In terms of statistics, again, I'm probably cherry picking a bit myself to back up my point. I'm not doing it to be disingenuous though, it's just more that I don't believe it's a working class voted brexit and middle class voted against it sort of thing. Older people are wealthier but then they've also worked longer and own assets which have substantially increased in value so you expect them to be wealthier. So me using this comparison can maybe be debunked a bit and scrutinised too. At the same time though 73% of 18-24 year olds voted to remain and there's certainly no way that only a quarter of that age group is working class. So I just don't think it's clear cut. Anyway it's always much easier to scrutinise a government or referendum when you're in opposition and its not what you voted for. All those on the left blaming brexit voters could very well find themselves on the receiving end in 4 or 5 years themselves whereby a labour government they backed may be involved in scandals and oversee worsening public services and standards of living. Anyway been a very long day and I'm rambling off on a tangent here. I think once/if things begin to improve then brexit will become less and less significant. But while things have got worse some see it as a potential factor what's contributed to thst. So fingers crossed whoever comes in next actually gets a New PM bounce if such a thing exists.
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Post by Bramolini on Jan 6, 2024 5:35:31 GMT
An excellent post Gawa, but I don't believe that the left wing case for Brexit was ever made in any way shape or form. Brexit was not a party political issue. If anything it has been a trading left wing issue, tied up with democracy, representation. To make the case from the front would have taken real leadership and courage. To me that is where Corbyn, the Left and Labour failed....weren't even in the game.....and still aren't in terms of achieving any significant change. If the case had been made , there's no telling what difference it would make to the statistics.....and with a large motivated working class for once, perhaps something could have been achieved. In my opinion, Stoke turned blue because of Brexit, if Corbyn had led on this, he could have done so as a conviction politician rather than an opportunist Johnson. Imo of course ( I'll perhaps have a closer look at your statistics tomorrow) I agree that we lacked a left wing pro brexit view and I think alot of that comes back to the two horse race we have become accustomed to too. Whereby if there is a divisive issue with a fairly even split and one of the big two parties goes one side then the other tends to go the other side. I guess in doing so it helps keep them both as the two largest parties too. As Cameron won the 2015 election off the back of promising a referendum it sort of setup the conservatives to back brexit because they were voted in on the back of a promise to have a referendum and people wouldn't vote for them, for a referendum, unless they wanted to vote for change. So in some ways I think Corbyns position was decided for him because had he also been pro brexit then there would be 49% (or whatever voted to remain) of those who voted who would be disillusioned by both tory and Labour. And I'm not sure if being pro brexit would have won him over much of the leave vote or enough to put up a challenge. I am bias though towards corbyn so I know my views are probably a bit blinded and impartial. And I can understand why people didn't like him or have confidence in him but for me he gave hope. Like I said before though things could easily have turned out worse under his leadership too. Just because it's unknown doesn't mean it would have been better. But my bias part of me thinks it would have been. The ship has sailed for now though and so I must move on. As for labour I agree in the sense about not being in the game in terms of significant change. Starmer at times has given trinkets of hope such as pledging to scrap the house of Lords before then back tracking on his commitment or when he will action it. And my greatest worry is he gets in power and doesn't have any radical or breath of fresh air changes which are much needed because if that happens then it very much backs up the whole "all politicians are the same" rhetoric we often hear. In terms of statistics, again, I'm probably cherry picking a bit myself to back up my point. I'm not doing it to be disingenuous though, it's just more that I don't believe it's a working class voted brexit and middle class voted against it sort of thing. Older people are wealthier but then they've also worked longer and own assets which have substantially increased in value so you expect them to be wealthier. So me using this comparison can maybe be debunked a bit and scrutinised too. At the same time though 73% of 18-24 year olds voted to remain and there's certainly no way that only a quarter of that age group is working class. So I just don't think it's clear cut. Anyway it's always much easier to scrutinise a government or referendum when you're in opposition and its not what you voted for. All those on the left blaming brexit voters could very well find themselves on the receiving end in 4 or 5 years themselves whereby a labour government they backed may be involved in scandals and oversee worsening public services and standards of living. Anyway been a very long day and I'm rambling off on a tangent here. I think once/if things begin to improve then brexit will become less and less significant. But while things have got worse some see it as a potential factor what's contributed to thst. So fingers crossed whoever comes in next actually gets a New PM bounce if such a thing exists. Jeremy Corbyn haha fuck me
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jan 6, 2024 6:17:00 GMT
An excellent post Gawa, but I don't believe that the left wing case for Brexit was ever made in any way shape or form. Brexit was not a party political issue. If anything it has been a trading left wing issue, tied up with democracy, representation. To make the case from the front would have taken real leadership and courage. To me that is where Corbyn, the Left and Labour failed....weren't even in the game.....and still aren't in terms of achieving any significant change. If the case had been made , there's no telling what difference it would make to the statistics.....and with a large motivated working class for once, perhaps something could have been achieved. In my opinion, Stoke turned blue because of Brexit, if Corbyn had led on this, he could have done so as a conviction politician rather than an opportunist Johnson. Imo of course ( I'll perhaps have a closer look at your statistics tomorrow) In terms of statistics, again, I'm probably cherry picking a bit myself to back up my point. I'm not doing it to be disingenuous though, it's just more that I don't believe it's a working class voted brexit and middle class voted against it sort of thing. Older people are wealthier but then they've also worked longer and own assets which have substantially increased in value so you expect them to be wealthier. So me using this comparison can maybe be debunked a bit and scrutinised too. At the same time though 73% of 18-24 year olds voted to remain and there's certainly no way that only a quarter of that age group is working class. Is that 73% of 18-24 year olds that turned out and voted, or 73% of 18-24 year olds in the general population at the time? I imagine there's a significant difference between those two figures.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 6, 2024 9:33:17 GMT
An excellent post Gawa, but I don't believe that the left wing case for Brexit was ever made in any way shape or form. Brexit was not a party political issue. If anything it has been a trading left wing issue, tied up with democracy, representation. To make the case from the front would have taken real leadership and courage. To me that is where Corbyn, the Left and Labour failed....weren't even in the game.....and still aren't in terms of achieving any significant change. If the case had been made , there's no telling what difference it would make to the statistics.....and with a large motivated working class for once, perhaps something could have been achieved. In my opinion, Stoke turned blue because of Brexit, if Corbyn had led on this, he could have done so as a conviction politician rather than an opportunist Johnson. Imo of course ( I'll perhaps have a closer look at your statistics tomorrow) I agree that we lacked a left wing pro brexit view and I think alot of that comes back to the two horse race we have become accustomed to too. Whereby if there is a divisive issue with a fairly even split and one of the big two parties goes one side then the other tends to go the other side. I guess in doing so it helps keep them both as the two largest parties too. As Cameron won the 2015 election off the back of promising a referendum it sort of setup the conservatives to back brexit because they were voted in on the back of a promise to have a referendum and people wouldn't vote for them, for a referendum, unless they wanted to vote for change. So in some ways I think Corbyns position was decided for him because had he also been pro brexit then there would be 49% (or whatever voted to remain) of those who voted who would be disillusioned by both tory and Labour. And I'm not sure if being pro brexit would have won him over much of the leave vote or enough to put up a challenge. I am bias though towards corbyn so I know my views are probably a bit blinded and impartial. And I can understand why people didn't like him or have confidence in him but for me he gave hope. Like I said before though things could easily have turned out worse under his leadership too. Just because it's unknown doesn't mean it would have been better. But my bias part of me thinks it would have been. The ship has sailed for now though and so I must move on. As for labour I agree in the sense about not being in the game in terms of significant change. Starmer at times has given trinkets of hope such as pledging to scrap the house of Lords before then back tracking on his commitment or when he will action it. And my greatest worry is he gets in power and doesn't have any radical or breath of fresh air changes which are much needed because if that happens then it very much backs up the whole "all politicians are the same" rhetoric we often hear. In terms of statistics, again, I'm probably cherry picking a bit myself to back up my point. I'm not doing it to be disingenuous though, it's just more that I don't believe it's a working class voted brexit and middle class voted against it sort of thing. Older people are wealthier but then they've also worked longer and own assets which have substantially increased in value so you expect them to be wealthier. So me using this comparison can maybe be debunked a bit and scrutinised too. At the same time though 73% of 18-24 year olds voted to remain and there's certainly no way that only a quarter of that age group is working class. So I just don't think it's clear cut. Anyway it's always much easier to scrutinise a government or referendum when you're in opposition and its not what you voted for. All those on the left blaming brexit voters could very well find themselves on the receiving end in 4 or 5 years themselves whereby a labour government they backed may be involved in scandals and oversee worsening public services and standards of living. Anyway been a very long day and I'm rambling off on a tangent here. I think once/if things begin to improve then brexit will become less and less significant. But while things have got worse some see it as a potential factor what's contributed to thst. So fingers crossed whoever comes in next actually gets a New PM bounce if such a thing exists. There is no true left wing pro Brexit view. All true left wingers are against being ruled by a capitalist organization that is there to support the interests of large German and French corporate interests. Corbyn could not be trusted. He claimed to be socialist once, but then sold out to left wing academics, who have no genuine interest in the interests of the working class. I voted leave because I don't believe in politicians handing over sovereignty to Brussels. The government should be accountable to the people and be capable of being removed by the people when it messes up. Both leave and remain campaigns misled the public, that's what politicians do! What was posted on the side of red buses went out the window in 2020 with the COVID19 pandemic which has changed the whole NHS situation, with patient backlog, staff burn out, etc. being made far worse than it already was due to austerity measures. I supported EEC membership in the 1970s, when the present members represented a third of the world's economy. I thought giving up some sovereignty for the benefits of a large "home market" was good for Britain. But over half a century the world has completely changed. The EU now represents only 15% of the world economy and that fraction is declining fast. Conversely Maastricht handed of the supremacy of sovereignty to the EU. The balance has shifted far too far for me. Furthermore the balance has shifted even more since the UK left the EU. The trade benefits of joining the EEC have turned into a massive trade deficit with the EU. The UK will be far better off economically in the long term concentrating on trade with RoW and being a member of other trade groups. www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/7292/20-05-2009/why-socialists-oppose-the-eu/monthlyreview.org/2019/10/01/socialist-internationalism-against-the-european-union/www.politicshome.com/thehouse/article/socialism-can-never-be-delivered-while-we-remain-in-the-eus-capitalist-clubwww.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stanceI'll conclude by saying there is no going back to the EU. People need to realise that as Starmer does. Germany's net contribution is now over £20 billion pa. which isn't so bad when you enjoy a huge trade benefit with the rest of the EU. The EU is set on a path to total fiscal union and ultimately total political union of things like foreign policy. Not all countries will agree to everything so qualified majority voting will take precedence over individual country's interests on everything, which means more loss of sovereignty. Since leaving the EU, the rules have changed on EU debt. The EU Commission have now started to take on huge amounts of debt "on behalf of" members countries. www.bruegel.org/policy-brief/rising-cost-european-union-borrowing-and-what-do-about-it#:~:text=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.europarl.europa,%2FIPOL_IDA(2023)7494%E2%80%A6&text=Debt%20issuance%20by%20the%20European,arisen%20from%20borrowing%20since%202020.
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Post by gawa on Jan 6, 2024 10:07:38 GMT
In terms of statistics, again, I'm probably cherry picking a bit myself to back up my point. I'm not doing it to be disingenuous though, it's just more that I don't believe it's a working class voted brexit and middle class voted against it sort of thing. Older people are wealthier but then they've also worked longer and own assets which have substantially increased in value so you expect them to be wealthier. So me using this comparison can maybe be debunked a bit and scrutinised too. At the same time though 73% of 18-24 year olds voted to remain and there's certainly no way that only a quarter of that age group is working class. Is that 73% of 18-24 year olds that turned out and voted, or 73% of 18-24 year olds in the general population at the time? I imagine there's a significant difference between those two figures. Of those who voted mate.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jan 6, 2024 10:30:49 GMT
Is that 73% of 18-24 year olds that turned out and voted, or 73% of 18-24 year olds in the general population at the time? I imagine there's a significant difference between those two figures. Of those who voted mate. So do we know what percentage of that cohort actually bothered to vote?
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Post by wannabee on Jan 6, 2024 11:43:27 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 6, 2024 11:48:55 GMT
I agree that we lacked a left wing pro brexit view and I think alot of that comes back to the two horse race we have become accustomed to too. Whereby if there is a divisive issue with a fairly even split and one of the big two parties goes one side then the other tends to go the other side. I guess in doing so it helps keep them both as the two largest parties too. As Cameron won the 2015 election off the back of promising a referendum it sort of setup the conservatives to back brexit because they were voted in on the back of a promise to have a referendum and people wouldn't vote for them, for a referendum, unless they wanted to vote for change. So in some ways I think Corbyns position was decided for him because had he also been pro brexit then there would be 49% (or whatever voted to remain) of those who voted who would be disillusioned by both tory and Labour. And I'm not sure if being pro brexit would have won him over much of the leave vote or enough to put up a challenge. I am bias though towards corbyn so I know my views are probably a bit blinded and impartial. And I can understand why people didn't like him or have confidence in him but for me he gave hope. Like I said before though things could easily have turned out worse under his leadership too. Just because it's unknown doesn't mean it would have been better. But my bias part of me thinks it would have been. The ship has sailed for now though and so I must move on. As for labour I agree in the sense about not being in the game in terms of significant change. Starmer at times has given trinkets of hope such as pledging to scrap the house of Lords before then back tracking on his commitment or when he will action it. And my greatest worry is he gets in power and doesn't have any radical or breath of fresh air changes which are much needed because if that happens then it very much backs up the whole "all politicians are the same" rhetoric we often hear. In terms of statistics, again, I'm probably cherry picking a bit myself to back up my point. I'm not doing it to be disingenuous though, it's just more that I don't believe it's a working class voted brexit and middle class voted against it sort of thing. Older people are wealthier but then they've also worked longer and own assets which have substantially increased in value so you expect them to be wealthier. So me using this comparison can maybe be debunked a bit and scrutinised too. At the same time though 73% of 18-24 year olds voted to remain and there's certainly no way that only a quarter of that age group is working class. So I just don't think it's clear cut. Anyway it's always much easier to scrutinise a government or referendum when you're in opposition and its not what you voted for. All those on the left blaming brexit voters could very well find themselves on the receiving end in 4 or 5 years themselves whereby a labour government they backed may be involved in scandals and oversee worsening public services and standards of living. Anyway been a very long day and I'm rambling off on a tangent here. I think once/if things begin to improve then brexit will become less and less significant. But while things have got worse some see it as a potential factor what's contributed to thst. So fingers crossed whoever comes in next actually gets a New PM bounce if such a thing exists. There is no true left wing pro Brexit view. All true left wingers are against being ruled by a capitalist organization that is there to support the interests of large German and French corporate interests. Corbyn could not be trusted. He claimed to be socialist once, but then sold out to left wing academics, who have no genuine interest in the interests of the working class. I voted leave because I don't believe in politicians handing over sovereignty to Brussels. The government should be accountable to the people and be capable of being removed by the people when it messes up. Both leave and remain campaigns misled the public, that's what politicians do! What was posted on the side of red buses went out the window in 2020 with the COVID19 pandemic which has changed the whole NHS situation, with patient backlog, staff burn out, etc. being made far worse than it already was due to austerity measures. I supported EEC membership in the 1970s, when the present members represented a third of the world's economy. I thought giving up some sovereignty for the benefits of a large "home market" was good for Britain. But over half a century the world has completely changed. The EU now represents only 15% of the world economy and that fraction is declining fast. Conversely Maastricht handed of the supremacy of sovereignty to the EU. The balance has shifted far too far for me. Furthermore the balance has shifted even more since the UK left the EU. The trade benefits of joining the EEC have turned into a massive trade deficit with the EU. The UK will be far better off economically in the long term concentrating on trade with RoW and being a member of other trade groups. www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/7292/20-05-2009/why-socialists-oppose-the-eu/monthlyreview.org/2019/10/01/socialist-internationalism-against-the-european-union/www.politicshome.com/thehouse/article/socialism-can-never-be-delivered-while-we-remain-in-the-eus-capitalist-clubwww.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stanceI'll conclude by saying there is no going back to the EU. People need to realise that as Starmer does. Germany's net contribution is now over £20 billion pa. which isn't so bad when you enjoy a huge trade benefit with the rest of the EU. The EU is set on a path to total fiscal union and ultimately total political union of things like foreign policy. Not all countries will agree to everything so qualified majority voting will take precedence over individual country's interests on everything, which means more loss of sovereignty. Since leaving the EU, the rules have changed on EU debt. The EU Commission have now started to take on huge amounts of debt "on behalf of" members countries. www.bruegel.org/policy-brief/rising-cost-european-union-borrowing-and-what-do-about-it#:~:text=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.europarl.europa,%2FIPOL_IDA(2023)7494%E2%80%A6&text=Debt%20issuance%20by%20the%20European,arisen%20from%20borrowing%20since%202020. Since Thatcher came into power, the EU has always been more left wing than our government (I cannot speak with enough knowledge about what cane before then). Brexit was championed and fought for by the most right wing parts of the tory party. The referendum taking place was due to right wing tories. They led the leave campaigns. They have pushed it through. The reason being they hate the restrictions on businesses from the EU. In other words, they hate the restrictions on free market capitalism put in place by the EU for the benefit of workers and consumers. The EU is capitalist but has the tightest control of capitalism on earth in terms of giving the greatest amount of rights to individuals and workers over businesses and employers. A left wing brexit never existed and no left win brexit plans have ever been promoted or raised as a possible outcome of brexit by Corbyn or anyone on the left wing. Brexit is about making rich people richer and giving them more opportunities to do so by reducing regulations on businesses and reducing rights for workers and employees.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 6, 2024 12:56:43 GMT
There is no true left wing pro Brexit view. All true left wingers are against being ruled by a capitalist organization that is there to support the interests of large German and French corporate interests. Corbyn could not be trusted. He claimed to be socialist once, but then sold out to left wing academics, who have no genuine interest in the interests of the working class. I voted leave because I don't believe in politicians handing over sovereignty to Brussels. The government should be accountable to the people and be capable of being removed by the people when it messes up. Both leave and remain campaigns misled the public, that's what politicians do! What was posted on the side of red buses went out the window in 2020 with the COVID19 pandemic which has changed the whole NHS situation, with patient backlog, staff burn out, etc. being made far worse than it already was due to austerity measures. I supported EEC membership in the 1970s, when the present members represented a third of the world's economy. I thought giving up some sovereignty for the benefits of a large "home market" was good for Britain. But over half a century the world has completely changed. The EU now represents only 15% of the world economy and that fraction is declining fast. Conversely Maastricht handed of the supremacy of sovereignty to the EU. The balance has shifted far too far for me. Furthermore the balance has shifted even more since the UK left the EU. The trade benefits of joining the EEC have turned into a massive trade deficit with the EU. The UK will be far better off economically in the long term concentrating on trade with RoW and being a member of other trade groups. www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/7292/20-05-2009/why-socialists-oppose-the-eu/monthlyreview.org/2019/10/01/socialist-internationalism-against-the-european-union/www.politicshome.com/thehouse/article/socialism-can-never-be-delivered-while-we-remain-in-the-eus-capitalist-clubwww.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stanceI'll conclude by saying there is no going back to the EU. People need to realise that as Starmer does. Germany's net contribution is now over £20 billion pa. which isn't so bad when you enjoy a huge trade benefit with the rest of the EU. The EU is set on a path to total fiscal union and ultimately total political union of things like foreign policy. Not all countries will agree to everything so qualified majority voting will take precedence over individual country's interests on everything, which means more loss of sovereignty. Since leaving the EU, the rules have changed on EU debt. The EU Commission have now started to take on huge amounts of debt "on behalf of" members countries. www.bruegel.org/policy-brief/rising-cost-european-union-borrowing-and-what-do-about-it#:~:text=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.europarl.europa,%2FIPOL_IDA(2023)7494%E2%80%A6&text=Debt%20issuance%20by%20the%20European,arisen%20from%20borrowing%20since%202020. Since Thatcher came into power, the EU has always been more left wing than our government (I cannot speak with enough knowledge about what cane before then). Brexit was championed and fought for by the most right wing parts of the tory party. The referendum taking place was due to right wing tories. They led the leave campaigns. They have pushed it through. The reason being they hate the restrictions on businesses from the EU. In other words, they hate the restrictions on free market capitalism put in place by the EU for the benefit of workers and consumers. The EU is capitalist but has the tightest control of capitalism on earth in terms of giving the greatest amount of rights to individuals and workers over businesses and employers. A left wing brexit never existed and no left win brexit plans have ever been promoted or raised as a possible outcome of brexit by Corbyn or anyone on the left wing. Brexit is about making rich people richer and giving them more opportunities to do so by reducing regulations on businesses and reducing rights for workers and employees. Brexit is firstly about sovereignty, but it also about making everyone richer. Our economy will grow faster, workers wages are increasing faster than for decades due to stopping freedom of movement. All foreigners are treated equally apart from those with special rights like Hongkongers. Government can invest in the UK instead of handing payments to the EU. We are free to negotiate our own trade deals and join trade agreements with the world's faster growing economies. We are free for UK governments to introduce what legislation is necessary to control business. No workers rights need be lost. If the country votes in a right wing government that's democracy. tradingeconomics.com/country-list/wage-growthwww.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/december2023#:~:text=Annual%20growth%20in%20regular%20earnings,in%20August%20to%20October%202023.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 6, 2024 14:16:12 GMT
Since Thatcher came into power, the EU has always been more left wing than our government (I cannot speak with enough knowledge about what cane before then). Brexit was championed and fought for by the most right wing parts of the tory party. The referendum taking place was due to right wing tories. They led the leave campaigns. They have pushed it through. The reason being they hate the restrictions on businesses from the EU. In other words, they hate the restrictions on free market capitalism put in place by the EU for the benefit of workers and consumers. The EU is capitalist but has the tightest control of capitalism on earth in terms of giving the greatest amount of rights to individuals and workers over businesses and employers. A left wing brexit never existed and no left win brexit plans have ever been promoted or raised as a possible outcome of brexit by Corbyn or anyone on the left wing. Brexit is about making rich people richer and giving them more opportunities to do so by reducing regulations on businesses and reducing rights for workers and employees. Brexit is firstly about sovereignty, but it also about making everyone richer. Our economy will grow faster, workers wages are increasing faster than for decades due to stopping freedom of movement. All foreigners are treated equally apart from those with special rights like Hongkongers. Government can invest in the UK instead of handing payments to the EU. We are free to negotiate our own trade deals and join trade agreements with the world's faster growing economies. We are free for UK governments to introduce what legislation is necessary to control business. No workers rights need be lost. If the country votes in a right wing government that's democracy. tradingeconomics.com/country-list/wage-growthwww.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/december2023#:~:text=Annual%20growth%20in%20regular%20earnings,in%20August%20to%20October%202023. Right. But when will we actually see these alleged benefits? When will everyone get richer because in real terms, everyone is a lot poorer (not entirely due to brexit, obviously). Wages have increased quickly, but not in real terms when you account for inflation. Immigration is higher than ever and we have lost lots of the net contributing immigrants (from the EU). Name 5 tangible benefits of brexit.
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Post by wannabee on Jan 6, 2024 14:41:38 GMT
Since Thatcher came into power, the EU has always been more left wing than our government (I cannot speak with enough knowledge about what cane before then). Brexit was championed and fought for by the most right wing parts of the tory party. The referendum taking place was due to right wing tories. They led the leave campaigns. They have pushed it through. The reason being they hate the restrictions on businesses from the EU. In other words, they hate the restrictions on free market capitalism put in place by the EU for the benefit of workers and consumers. The EU is capitalist but has the tightest control of capitalism on earth in terms of giving the greatest amount of rights to individuals and workers over businesses and employers. A left wing brexit never existed and no left win brexit plans have ever been promoted or raised as a possible outcome of brexit by Corbyn or anyone on the left wing. Brexit is about making rich people richer and giving them more opportunities to do so by reducing regulations on businesses and reducing rights for workers and employees. Brexit is firstly about sovereignty, but it also about making everyone richer. Our economy will grow faster, workers wages are increasing faster than for decades due to stopping freedom of movement. All foreigners are treated equally apart from those with special rights like Hongkongers. Government can invest in the UK instead of handing payments to the EU. We are free to negotiate our own trade deals and join trade agreements with the world's faster growing economies. We are free for UK governments to introduce what legislation is necessary to control business. No workers rights need be lost. If the country votes in a right wing government that's democracy. tradingeconomics.com/country-list/wage-growthwww.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/december2023#:~:text=Annual%20growth%20in%20regular%20earnings,in%20August%20to%20October%202023. Since leaving EU, UK has signed 71 Bilateral Trade Agreements of these 68 were EU rollovers on EXACTLY the same terms Of the 3 Bespoke Trade Agreements the one with Australia was described as a crap deal for UK by the Minister who negotiated it George Eustace as soon as he stepped down as a Minister and was free to speak. The Australian Think Tank The Lowy Institute reached a similar conclusion and congratulated the Australian Negotiators for getting concessions from UK they were unable to get In Trade Agreements with Japan, China, South Korea and US www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/australia-sweeps-table-uk-trade-dealThe New Zealand Trade Agreement is based on the Australian and is equally crap. The Japan Trade Agreement is almost a Rollover except for the addition of a Digital Section and the Agriculture Section only gives UK a quota if EU doesn't use, e.g. none The most important Trade Agreement with EU is considerably worse than previous arrangements The UK also joined CPTPP but as it already had Bilateral Agreements with 9 of the 11 Members the only new Trade Partners are Brunei and Malaysia A Trade Agreement with US, the Big Brexit Prize, is nowhere in sight The much advertised enhanced Trade Agreement with Canada is floundering as Canada has no great appetite to negotiate In fact some of the EU Rollover Agreement contained Sunset Clauses and is now providing Hard Cheese for the Dairy Industry For about the 4th/5th time I'll ask your opinion on whether Sovereignty has been damaged in this agreement where Global Companies can sue the UK Government in Secret Courts if they introduce Legislation which negatively affects their business? The equally discussed Trade Agreement with India has also gone equally quite I am perplexed how you think this level of competence will enhance the Economy Wages are increasing faster for decades because inflation increased faster than for decades All foreigners are not treated equally. It is possible to pay skilled workers (misnomer) 20% less Over 100,000 Social care Workers entered on this route last year alone. The changes announced by forked tongued Cleverly (sic) were immediately rowed back and the majority of changes come into effect in January 2025 I.e. never You saying Government can introduce Legislation to control Business I assume deliberately excluded Sovereignty over Human Rights which UK has ceded to International Organisations
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Post by essexstokey on Jan 7, 2024 9:09:47 GMT
Snake on kunsberg
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Post by essexstokey on Jan 7, 2024 9:12:16 GMT
Not answering questions again trying to rewriting history the snake
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Post by essexstokey on Jan 7, 2024 9:24:00 GMT
What a slimey snake not answering questions and blaming others he seams like an ostrich witness head in the sand
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Post by elystokie on Jan 7, 2024 9:37:02 GMT
Only just watched this, genius! 😀 The highlight for me was the bit where the commentary says 'through thick and thin' and they show a picture of Gullis as the word 'thick' is mentioned 😂
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 7, 2024 16:34:07 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 7, 2024 20:50:32 GMT
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Post by gawa on Jan 8, 2024 1:29:04 GMT
Reform really are UKIP v2 aren't they.
While not being right wing myself, I was excited by the prospect of another right wing party which could potentially deliver for those that way inclined without being knee deep in corruption. They've challenged the tories on where they've failed for their supporters and seemed to be a good opposition even promising to stand a candidate in every constituency just a few weeks ago.
Just like UKIP though they appear to be a tory enabling party which are only interested in challenging sears the torys can't win and staying away from tight seats to allow the corrupt torys more chance of success.
Funny considering all the chat from Sunak trying to imply Lib Dem/Labour are a coalition over the summer. This is the tory parry which went into a coalition with Lib Dem, did a deal with the DUP to get a majority and have had UKIP bow over for them at every ask for the last decade.
UKIP have won one seat at a GE and 2 at a by election in their 30 year history - absolutely pathetic. Reform seem to now be much the same.
If you have right wing views in this country it seems the only option is to be represented is if it comes with a large dollop of corruption to the highest bidding tory donors too.
The more I think about it the more I think Reform/UKIP aren't proper parties with any political aspirations at all. Feels more like a set of fake parties under the thumb of the conservatives to split votes where they feel its beneficial.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 8, 2024 5:40:59 GMT
Reform really are UKIP v2 aren't they. While not being right wing myself, I was excited by the prospect of another right wing party which could potentially deliver for those that way inclined without being knee deep in corruption. They've challenged the tories on where they've failed for their supporters and seemed to be a good opposition even promising to stand a candidate in every constituency just a few weeks ago. Just like UKIP though they appear to be a tory enabling party which are only interested in challenging sears the torys can't win and staying away from tight seats to allow the corrupt torys more chance of success. Funny considering all the chat from Sunak trying to imply Lib Dem/Labour are a coalition over the summer. This is the tory parry which went into a coalition with Lib Dem, did a deal with the DUP to get a majority and have had UKIP bow over for them at every ask for the last decade. UKIP have won one seat at a GE and 2 at a by election in their 30 year history - absolutely pathetic. Reform seem to now be much the same. If you have right wing views in this country it seems the only option is to be represented is if it comes with a large dollop of corruption to the highest bidding tory donors too. The more I think about it the more I think Reform/UKIP aren't proper parties with any political aspirations at all. Feels more like a set of fake parties under the thumb of the conservatives to split votes where they feel its beneficial. Without electoral reform, some form of proportional representation, any other party other than the big two will be on the periphery. The Greens for example will never have a real voice. The futile ( minor, insignificant) political struggle is within the big two parties...."how far to the " left" or "right" are we( perceived to be)?" . Unfortunately Gawa, in my opinion, even after the next election we are destined for the status quo, same old, same old....no real change, very few getting what they really want.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Jan 8, 2024 7:23:02 GMT
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