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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 9, 2023 10:55:45 GMT
To be fair he does make some very valid points. I'm just trying to put another spin on it and balance the discussion up. Its too easy sometimes to block certain realities out because it harms the narrative for their main arguement. And that's what's been happening to white working class kids. They are currently doomed from the start of life and will end up a huge problem down the road. It shouldn't be ignored in the trampede to be seen as racially progressive. We are a good country in racial terms heading in the right direction. Still lots to achieve but simply peddling this story of us being inherently racist and ethnics can't get on in life here is an absolute lie. And a dangerous one. Thanks, Mickey. Shove that up your fudge pipe, Crappy   Completely agree about white working class kids being failed educationally - but that's not the same as discrimination which, by definition, is deliberate and often enshrined in legislation. Is anyone on here really "peddling this story of us being inherently racist and ethnics can't get on in life here"? Perhaps you meant in general, away from the board, in which case fair enough and those voices should be challenged. But, I'd say that they are minority opinions, the flip side of the same coin that Crappy here bangs on about in relation to the 'persecution' of straight white males which, as I said, is arrant bollocks, frankly. I'm talking about general society but particularly how things in my opinion went bat shit crazy after the George Floyd incident. To the point that many of the ethnic parents i spoke to on the school yard were also very concerned with what was being said. There are currently no laws in this country that discriminate against ethnic people. There have been in the past and that is shameful. But as a society we have moved on a great deal in the last 40 years. And its been fantastic for decent honest people to see. Not saying individual companies won't still have racist beliefs and practices but that can work both ways too. Telling white people they are privileged simply for their colour or they are racist and biased simply because they are white is just plain wrong if you ask me. And yes it was happening and some are still peddling that message. It's harmful for everyone in the long run. Indeed I was chatting to somebody the other day about this topic and when I said I like to think I just don't see colour and will just take people on face value they scoffed and said that's borderline racist. Something about demeaning the plight of ethnic people and their lived experiences. Jeez, sometimes you just can't win 😆 At some point we have to leave the past in the past but keep learning to all be better people. |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 9, 2023 10:55:56 GMT
She is a laughing stock for normal people but for you and other Labour supporters she can do no wrong. I'm mint and ace like Trump. She is just like you. You are a match made in heaven. Nah she's like you. |
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Post by Gawa on Oct 9, 2023 10:57:12 GMT
I can sympathise and understand where he's coming from. If you're a straight white male there's an illusion that everything's easy and handed on a plate and that because of the way you're born your suddenly privileged and have it easier than everyone else. And while this is correct for some things - it also leads to alot of these people feeling like their problems and issues are easily dismissed because gays/trans/black/foreign/immigrant/women have it harder. And in a sense that is also racial stereotyping to presume that someone has its easier than others due to their colour or gender. I also think through "equality" we are all suffering. One example is women in the workplace. A household could generally survive and buy a house and raise a family on one income 40 years ago. Now women have alot more rights in the work place we suddenly need 2 incomes to run a household and raise a family in most instances. How has this happened? Another example is that with so much focus on equality in pay there are alot of white working class men suffering as a result. CEOs like you said yourself are mostly men. While alot of those doing manual jobs which are lower paid are also men. And as a result alot of office and middle management roles get filled up with women to meet these "average equal pay targets". And who's winning from that? The CEOs and directors on big money. When it comes to BAME managers for instance it's usually compared against the number of BAME footballers in a league or country. But a large chunk of BAME footballers are foreign and only here for the duration of their contract before leaving. So I don't think that's the best measurement to use. Now that's not to say they're under represented, they are, but the metrics used sometimes can make it look worse than it is in some instances. We don't have alot of player managers these days so comparisons should be made against British born BAME players 20 years ago (rough duration of a career) rather than against current BAME representation in the league. What I'm saying above isn't me saying discrimination doesn't exist. It certainly does and I can recognise that there are certain things such as stop and check searches which are much more likely for black people compared to me and that is racial stereotyping. As well as many other examples you and others have provided. But ultimately I think class plays a much bigger role in where people end up and how they get treated than anything else. A black/asian person in a wealthy family going to private school such as Sunak or Braverman will get alot more opportunities than a white man born in a working class area. So for me it all comes down to the wealthy again who seem to benefit from these culture wars where they pit us against eachother but in reality we all know that the class your born into and the wealth of your parents has more influence on how you turn out than anything else. I can see both sides of the coin and I'm a huge supporter of equality for all. But I can sympathise with other white working class men too who feel things have been getting worse for them too and all they hear in the media is about equality for everyone else. And thus I can see why this then triggers them because they're also being fucked over by austerity but effectively being told they're privileged and their problems don't matter. Agree with all of that. Although I'll add regarding stop and search racial profiling isn't always a bad thing and is often necessary. Why should the police waste their time stopping and searching an elderly middle class white lady on her mobility scooter in Trentham when it's plainly obvious a black man with his trousers half way down his arse and an angry scowl on his face is the one more likely to be carrying a knife. It's just common sense. Works in reverse as well. Why should the police waste their time stopping and searching an elderly black lady on a match day in the harvester when it's plainly obvious the white lad with a stone island jacket on singing "who are ya" by the ground is the one most likely to be concealing a gram of beak. It's a difficult one because the police should definitely be using data and statistics to influence their decision making. But in doing so you can then also come across as racist too. I had a black housemate from Hackney who regularly encountered stop and search in London despite having no criminal record. So there's a problem there and stereotyping at play. A difficult one which I can see both sides of the argument to and don't really know the answer or solution to myself. The police should use data to help with their decision making to help protect us. But I think there also needs to be a balancing act with it too so that normal law abiding black people aren't constantly being stereotyped due to what another black person has done. It's a difficult one to debate/discuss. I can see both sides of it. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 9, 2023 10:59:01 GMT
I get where you're coming from, Mickey, but I'm not sure anyone said working class white boys were "privileged". I certainly didn't, if anyone else has then I must have missed it, apologies. However, without dismissing their failing academic achievements at school which you've correctly highlighted, the point of the discussion, originally at least, was that to grow up as a white, straight male in the west which has previously seen discrimination against blacks, Asians, women, homosexuals and other minorities, often in legislation, was to have experienced and to continue to experience a life almost entirely free from any of those barriers to progress. We're still not seeing equal pay for women, there are very few black or female CEOs in our industries, very few black or Asian football managers, administrators or referees, only recently have homosexuals been granted the same marital rights and job opportunities as straight people....none of that stuff applies the other way round. To think that there is some kind of organised campaign to persecute and victimise straight white men in this country or the west in general is arrant nonsense frankly. The evidence of daily life just doesn't support that view at all. I can sympathise and understand where he's coming from. If you're a straight white male there's an illusion that everything's easy and handed on a plate and that because of the way you're born your suddenly privileged and have it easier than everyone else. And while this is correct for some things - it also leads to alot of these people feeling like their problems and issues are easily dismissed because gays/trans/black/foreign/immigrant/women have it harder. And in a sense that is also racial stereotyping to presume that someone has its easier than others due to their colour or gender. I also think through "equality" we are all suffering. One example is women in the workplace. A household could generally survive and buy a house and raise a family on one income 40 years ago. Now women have alot more rights in the work place we suddenly need 2 incomes to run a household and raise a family in most instances. How has this happened? Another example is that with so much focus on equality in pay there are alot of white working class men suffering as a result. CEOs like you said yourself are mostly men. While alot of those doing manual jobs which are lower paid are also men. And as a result alot of office and middle management roles get filled up with women to meet these "average equal pay targets". And who's winning from that? The CEOs and directors on big money. When it comes to BAME managers for instance it's usually compared against the number of BAME footballers in a league or country. But a large chunk of BAME footballers are foreign and only here for the duration of their contract before leaving. So I don't think that's the best measurement to use. Now that's not to say they're under represented, they are, but the metrics used sometimes can make it look worse than it is in some instances. We don't have alot of player managers these days so comparisons should be made against British born BAME players 20 years ago (rough duration of a career) rather than against current BAME representation in the league. What I'm saying above isn't me saying discrimination doesn't exist. It certainly does and I can recognise that there are certain things such as stop and check searches which are much more likely for black people compared to me and that is racial stereotyping. As well as many other examples you and others have provided. But ultimately I think class plays a much bigger role in where people end up and how they get treated than anything else. A black/asian person in a wealthy family going to private school such as Sunak or Braverman will get alot more opportunities than a white man born in a working class area. So for me it all comes down to the wealthy again who seem to benefit from these culture wars where they pit us against eachother but in reality we all know that the class your born into and the wealth of your parents has more influence on how you turn out than anything else. I can see both sides of the coin and I'm a huge supporter of equality for all. But I can sympathise with other white working class men too who feel things have been getting worse for them too and all they hear in the media is about equality for everyone else. And thus I can see why this then triggers them because they're also being fucked over by austerity but effectively being told they're privileged and their problems don't matter. Good post. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2023 10:59:41 GMT
You are right about white working class boys underachieving in schools. White middle class boys are not underachieving and neither are white working class girls. So this is a class and gender thing more than a race thing. This is not the fault of the immigrant of black person. I never once said it was anything to do with racism. I don't do the cry racism thing if there's a problem. This is a thread about shitty govts. And this is one thing they are getting criminally wrong as they all do consistently. And having half a functioning brain i can see where its heading. And it ain't good. My underlying point is the usual virtue signallers banging on about how racist this country is should perhaps spend a bit more time checking in on working class white boys. They are anything but privileged. Sorry, I know you weren’t bringing up race, that was more for Aurelius who liked your post. I don’t think anyone is saying that you either address issues caused by racism, or the underachievement of white working class boys (certainly I am not). Both need to be addressed so that as far as possible everyone has as fair playing field as possible in succeeding, regardless of background or ethnicity. That’s why I don’t like the Diane Abbot/Aurelius approach of only seeing it from one side and ignoring the other sides to it. Class is the biggest discriminating factor in this country which is why labour’s policy of taxing private schools more to boost funding in the state sector is great. |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 9, 2023 11:01:21 GMT
Agree with all of that. Although I'll add regarding stop and search racial profiling isn't always a bad thing and is often necessary. Why should the police waste their time stopping and searching an elderly middle class white lady on her mobility scooter in Trentham when it's plainly obvious a black man with his trousers half way down his arse and an angry scowl on his face is the one more likely to be carrying a knife. It's just common sense. Works in reverse as well. Why should the police waste their time stopping and searching an elderly black lady on a match day in the harvester when it's plainly obvious the white lad with a stone island jacket on singing "who are ya" by the ground is the one most likely to be concealing a gram of beak. It's a difficult one because the police should definitely be using data and statistics to influence their decision making. But in doing so you can then also come across as racist too. I had a black housemate from Hackney who regularly encountered stop and search in London despite having no criminal record. So there's a problem there and stereotyping at play. A difficult one which I can see both sides of the argument to and don't really know the answer or solution to myself. The police should use data to help with their decision making to help protect us. But I think there also needs to be a balancing act with it too so that normal law abiding black people aren't constantly being stereotyped due to what another black person has done. It's a difficult one to debate/discuss. I can see both sides of it. It shouldn't matter how it comes across mate. The only thing that should be important is keeping the wider public safe. If people want to take something that's not racist and call it racist that's on them and their own issue. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2023 11:02:48 GMT
I never once said it was anything to do with racism. I don't do the cry racism thing if there's a problem. This is a thread about shitty govts. And this is one thing they are getting criminally wrong as they all do consistently. And having half a functioning brain i can see where its heading. And it ain't good. My underlying point is the usual virtue signallers banging on about how racist this country is should perhaps spend a bit more time checking in on working class white boys. They are anything but privileged. Oggy has a track record of making stuff up and twisting what you've said. I'm still trying to figure out if he genuinely has difficulties understanding things or if he just thinks he's clever by being disingenuous. Either way his views on race and ethnicity are abhorrent and have no place in modern Britain where everyone should he treated as equals and jobs given on merit rather than skin colour. In which case, black people would be proportionately represented in the top levels of all industries, but they are not. Why is that then if not some form of bias against them? |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 9, 2023 11:04:38 GMT
Oggy has a track record of making stuff up and twisting what you've said. I'm still trying to figure out if he genuinely has difficulties understanding things or if he just thinks he's clever by being disingenuous. Either way his views on race and ethnicity are abhorrent and have no place in modern Britain where everyone should he treated as equals and jobs given on merit rather than skin colour. In which case, black people would be proportionately represented in the top levels of all industries, but they are not. Why is that then if not some form of bias against them? It's been answered by myself and others above mate. Have a look, either learn to understand basic subjects or stop being disingenuous and playing dumb. Is this where you accuse me of refusing you answer even though I've answered already as have others. You seem to enjoy going round in circles....anyway....teams meeting. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2023 11:07:32 GMT
In which case, black people would be proportionately represented in the top levels of all industries, but they are not. Why is that then if not some form of bias against them? It's been answered by myself and others above mate. Have a look, either learn to understand basic subjects or stop being disingenuous and playing dumb. Is this where you accuse me of refusing you answer even though I've answered already as have others. You seem to enjoy going round in circles....anyway....teams meeting. No you haven’t. Not once. You say merit. Are you admitting that you think white people are better than black people? If not, explain the lack of proportionate representation of black people in senior work roles. |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 9, 2023 11:09:24 GMT
It's been answered by myself and others above mate. Have a look, either learn to understand basic subjects or stop being disingenuous and playing dumb. Is this where you accuse me of refusing you answer even though I've answered already as have others. You seem to enjoy going round in circles....anyway....teams meeting. No you haven’t. Not once. You say merit. Are you admitting that you think white people are better than black people? If not, explain the lack of proportionate representation of black people in senior work roles. I have. As have others. |
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Post by lordb on Oct 9, 2023 11:10:06 GMT
Abbot is a laughing stock. Don’t you get the irony? You complain frequently about Abbot and then do exactly what she does and see racism and discrimination but only from one side and where it isn’t there. You and Diane are the same. Too woke for your own goods. She is a laughing stock for normal people but for you and other Labour supporters she can do no wrong. I'm mint and ace like Trump. I'll agree you are like Trump Actually no he has no redeeming features You make us all laugh |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 9, 2023 11:11:53 GMT
She is a laughing stock for normal people but for you and other Labour supporters she can do no wrong. I'm mint and ace like Trump. I'll agree you are like Trump Thats actually a huge compliment mate thanks.  |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 9, 2023 11:16:22 GMT
Thanks, Mickey. Shove that up your fudge pipe, Crappy Completely agree about white working class kids being failed educationally - but that's not the same as discrimination which, by definition, is deliberate and often enshrined in legislation. Is anyone on here really "peddling this story of us being inherently racist and ethnics can't get on in life here"? Perhaps you meant in general, away from the board, in which case fair enough and those voices should be challenged. But, I'd say that they are minority opinions, the flip side of the same coin that Crappy here bangs on about in relation to the 'persecution' of straight white males which, as I said, is arrant bollocks, frankly. I'm talking about general society but particularly how things in my opinion went bat shit crazy after the George Floyd incident. To the point that many of the ethnic parents i spoke to on the school yard were also very concerned with what was being said. There are currently no laws in this country that discriminate against ethnic people. There have been in the past and that is shameful. But as a society we have moved on a great deal in the last 40 years. And its been fantastic for decent honest people to see. Not saying individual companies won't still have racist beliefs and practices but that can work both ways too. Telling white people they are privileged simply for their colour or they are racist and biased simply because they are white is just plain wrong if you ask me. And yes it was happening and some are still peddling that message. It's harmful for everyone in the long run. Indeed I was chatting to somebody the other day about this topic and when I said I like to think I just don't see colour and will just take people on face value they scoffed and said that's borderline racist. Something about demeaning the plight of ethnic people and their lived experiences. Jeez, sometimes you just can't win 😆 At some point we have to leave the past in the past but keep learning to all be better people. Things definitely went crazy after the murder of George Floyd while under arrest. One of numerous examples of black people being killed by the police in the US. You can kind of understand why it did, not that that excuses some of the actions and words that were carried out afterwards. I agree that there are no laws currently in this country that discriminate against ethnic people and the transition to that place is a very good and welcome thing. Where are the laws that discriminate against straight, white males in this country? When have they ever existed? You can argue perfectly reasonably that working class white people are being failed by schooling but in what sense is that a deliberate act of discrimination and, surely, as I said earlier, the same failures of teaching are experienced by pupils from ethnic backgrounds in those same schools? In which case, their families must be responsible for helping them to achieve better results - again, hardly evidence of a prejudiced and legalised discriminatory approach. This is the point. Where that discrimination towards minorities definitely existed previously, it has never done so for straight white males, working class white males, etc. To think so is bollocks. And this is, I think, where the sense of victimhood that Crappy embodies comes from. There is little or no introspection from white, working class areas as to why their kids are failing. It's partly external factors like government educational funding and delivery and partly the society in which these kids grow up, where there seems to be little sense of individual responsibility within families to provide a nurturing environment that kids can do well in, which fosters a strange sense of 'entitlement' that it doesn't matter if little Johnny leaves school with no qualifications, he can spend his life on the dole or in shitty, low-paid, no future, dead-end jobs and it's somebody else's fault that that's how it turned out, which is basically where Crappy's nonsense comes from. Prejudice and discrimination it most definitely isn't. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2023 11:19:56 GMT
No you haven’t. Not once. You say merit. Are you admitting that you think white people are better than black people? If not, explain the lack of proportionate representation of black people in senior work roles. I have. As have others. I am sorry, I have missed it. Can you please copy and paste it as I have gone back through the thread and the only thing you have said is people are appointed on merit. So, I repeat, unless black people are inherently worse than white people at work (which I do not believe), why are they underrepresented in senior positions at work? |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 9, 2023 11:27:31 GMT
I am sorry, I have missed it. Can you please copy and paste it as I have gone back through the thread and the only thing you have said is people are appointed on merit. So, I repeat, unless black people are inherently worse than white people at work (which I do not believe), why are they underrepresented in senior positions at work? You said please and I notice your tone seems more civil so I'll happily answer your question as soon as I get chance 👍🏻 Edit. I've just had a quick scan over bluers post above yours and he pretty much answers the question but in reverse. Replace white with black and you pretty much have your answer. Like I said though I'll lay it out properly in a bit. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 9, 2023 11:35:30 GMT
I'm talking about general society but particularly how things in my opinion went bat shit crazy after the George Floyd incident. To the point that many of the ethnic parents i spoke to on the school yard were also very concerned with what was being said. There are currently no laws in this country that discriminate against ethnic people. There have been in the past and that is shameful. But as a society we have moved on a great deal in the last 40 years. And its been fantastic for decent honest people to see. Not saying individual companies won't still have racist beliefs and practices but that can work both ways too. Telling white people they are privileged simply for their colour or they are racist and biased simply because they are white is just plain wrong if you ask me. And yes it was happening and some are still peddling that message. It's harmful for everyone in the long run. Indeed I was chatting to somebody the other day about this topic and when I said I like to think I just don't see colour and will just take people on face value they scoffed and said that's borderline racist. Something about demeaning the plight of ethnic people and their lived experiences. Jeez, sometimes you just can't win 😆 At some point we have to leave the past in the past but keep learning to all be better people. Things definitely went crazy after the murder of George Floyd while under arrest. One of numerous examples of black people being killed by the police in the US. You can kind of understand why it did, not that that excuses some of the actions and words that were carried out afterwards. I agree that there are no laws currently in this country that discriminate against ethnic people and the transition to that place is a very good and welcome thing. Where are the laws that discriminate against straight, white males in this country? When have they ever existed? You can argue perfectly reasonably that working class white people are being failed by schooling but in what sense is that a deliberate act of discrimination and, surely, as I said earlier, the same failures of teaching are experienced by pupils from ethnic backgrounds in those same schools? In which case, their families must be responsible for helping them to achieve better results - again, hardly evidence of a prejudiced and legalised discriminatory approach. This is the point. Where that discrimination towards minorities definitely existed previously, it has never done so for straight white males, working class white males, etc. To think so is bollocks. And this is, I think, where the sense of victimhood that Crappy embodies comes from. There is little or no introspection from white, working class areas as to why their kids are failing. It's partly external factors like government educational funding and delivery and partly the society in which these kids grow up, where there seems to be little sense of individual responsibility within families to provide a nurturing environment that kids can do well in, which fosters a strange sense of 'entitlement' that it doesn't matter if little Johnny leaves school with no qualifications, he can spend his life on the dole or in shitty, low-paid, no future, dead-end jobs and it's somebody else's fault that that's how it turned out, which is basically where Crappy's nonsense comes from. Prejudice and discrimination it most definitely isn't. Fair points. However its not a massive leap to suggest that in our haste to highlight how ethnic people have had it rough and continue to do so because white people subconsciously encourage racism then we are maybe completely missing a huge disadvantaged sector of our society. I'd call that being discriminated against. Whether its intended or not they are being discriminated. And whilst I fully understand your cultural points about white working class being generally uninterested in their kids education, it could be construed as being a bit stereotypical. A bit like perhaps me suggesting ethnic boys are only interested in basketball or certain food types. Funny how despite what some say these things can always work in both directions. All kids should be given a half decent chance of equal opportunity through till 18. White working class kids are most definitely being ignored whether they have shitty parents or not. It needs correcting fast. |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 9, 2023 11:37:02 GMT
I am sorry, I have missed it. Can you please copy and paste it as I have gone back through the thread and the only thing you have said is people are appointed on merit. So, I repeat, unless black people are inherently worse than white people at work (which I do not believe), why are they underrepresented in senior positions at work? There is little or no introspection from black areas as to why their kids are failing in life. It's partly external factors like government educational funding and delivery and partly the society in which these kids grow up, where there seems to be little sense of individual responsibility within families to provide a nurturing environment that kids can do well in, which fosters a strange sense of 'entitlement' that it doesn't matter if little Leroy leaves school with no qualifications, he can spend his life on the dole or in shitty, low-paid, no future, dead-end jobs or dealing weed and it's somebody else's fault, this in turn means that fewer blacks are able to make it to CEO positions. Prejudice and discrimination it most definitely isn't. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 9, 2023 11:52:35 GMT
I am sorry, I have missed it. Can you please copy and paste it as I have gone back through the thread and the only thing you have said is people are appointed on merit. So, I repeat, unless black people are inherently worse than white people at work (which I do not believe), why are they underrepresented in senior positions at work? There is little or no introspection from black areas as to why their kids are failing in life. It's partly external factors like government educational funding and delivery and partly the society in which these kids grow up, where there seems to be little sense of individual responsibility within families to provide a nurturing environment that kids can do well in, which fosters a strange sense of 'entitlement' that it doesn't matter if little Leroy leaves school with no qualifications, he can spend his life on the dole or in shitty, low-paid, no future, dead-end jobs or dealing weed and it's somebody else's fault, this in turn means that fewer blacks are able to make it to CEO positions. Prejudice and discrimination it most definitely isn't. With reference to America, Thomas Sowell has some interesting thoughts on this. He gets called a lot of derogatory names in his search for truth which is a bit ironic when you look at him. A wise old chap on most matters I've heard him discuss. |
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Post by Eggybread on Oct 9, 2023 11:55:54 GMT
Just to jump into this there is a third option. Maybe certain people of certain backgrounds and beliefs just don't want to climb the ladder. Its similar to why dont you see any Asian (inc Chinese) or African/Caribbean residents in nursing homes. It seems unlikely that black British people, people of Caribbean origin and people of African origin all happen to share those beliefs and backgrounds. Obviously not all.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 12:28:09 GMT
Things definitely went crazy after the murder of George Floyd while under arrest. One of numerous examples of black people being killed by the police in the US. You can kind of understand why it did, not that that excuses some of the actions and words that were carried out afterwards. I agree that there are no laws currently in this country that discriminate against ethnic people and the transition to that place is a very good and welcome thing. Where are the laws that discriminate against straight, white males in this country? When have they ever existed? You can argue perfectly reasonably that working class white people are being failed by schooling but in what sense is that a deliberate act of discrimination and, surely, as I said earlier, the same failures of teaching are experienced by pupils from ethnic backgrounds in those same schools? In which case, their families must be responsible for helping them to achieve better results - again, hardly evidence of a prejudiced and legalised discriminatory approach. This is the point. Where that discrimination towards minorities definitely existed previously, it has never done so for straight white males, working class white males, etc. To think so is bollocks. And this is, I think, where the sense of victimhood that Crappy embodies comes from. There is little or no introspection from white, working class areas as to why their kids are failing. It's partly external factors like government educational funding and delivery and partly the society in which these kids grow up, where there seems to be little sense of individual responsibility within families to provide a nurturing environment that kids can do well in, which fosters a strange sense of 'entitlement' that it doesn't matter if little Johnny leaves school with no qualifications, he can spend his life on the dole or in shitty, low-paid, no future, dead-end jobs and it's somebody else's fault that that's how it turned out, which is basically where Crappy's nonsense comes from. Prejudice and discrimination it most definitely isn't. Fair points. However its not a massive leap to suggest that in our haste to highlight how ethnic people have had it rough and continue to do so because white people subconsciously encourage racism then we are maybe completely missing a huge disadvantaged sector of our society. I'd call that being discriminated against. Whether its intended or not they are being discriminated. And whilst I fully understand your cultural points about white working class being generally uninterested in their kids education, it could be construed as being a bit stereotypical. A bit like perhaps me suggesting ethnic boys are only interested in basketball or certain food types. Funny how despite what some say these things can always work in both directions. All kids should be given a half decent chance of equal opportunity through till 18. White working class kids are most definitely being ignored whether they have shitty parents or not. It needs correcting fast. Unfortunately, race and “class” have often been strongly correlated. However, I agree that working class people of all ethnicities should be afforded better opportunity. Census data gives governments the opportunity to identify target areas and create programs that prioritize increased opportunities for stronger education, re-education tuition for early career job trainings for people from areas that score high on the neighborhood disadvantage index (NDI). It’s hard to argue that structural racism doesn’t exist in the Western World unless the argument is “I don’t believe data collected from Census” or “I don’t believe data collected from some of the UK’s largest study of maternal health even if it’s backed by sworn testimony of hundreds of doctors”. However, there are other ways to create additional opportunities without explicitly considering ethnicity. Applying affirmative action based approaches to something more granular, like the NDI can provide improved support to the working class as a whole, while also prioritizing the targeting of individuals from areas that most need it. For career opportunities at large corporations that have DEI policies, there could be an opt-in for good applications from those born in disadvantaged areas who apply with an agreement (for early career positions) to take on extra job-specific training in their free time. |
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Post by essexstokey on Oct 9, 2023 12:57:58 GMT
Bet a few Tories will be googling palaces you cant be extradited from after Rachel Reeves speech and covid fraud
Mass exodus of grubby Tory mps and lords ne thinks 😁😁
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 9, 2023 13:10:45 GMT
Fair points. However its not a massive leap to suggest that in our haste to highlight how ethnic people have had it rough and continue to do so because white people subconsciously encourage racism then we are maybe completely missing a huge disadvantaged sector of our society. I'd call that being discriminated against. Whether its intended or not they are being discriminated. And whilst I fully understand your cultural points about white working class being generally uninterested in their kids education, it could be construed as being a bit stereotypical. A bit like perhaps me suggesting ethnic boys are only interested in basketball or certain food types. Funny how despite what some say these things can always work in both directions. All kids should be given a half decent chance of equal opportunity through till 18. White working class kids are most definitely being ignored whether they have shitty parents or not. It needs correcting fast. Unfortunately, race and “class” have often been strongly correlated. However, I agree that working class people of all ethnicities should be afforded better opportunity. Census data gives governments the opportunity to identify target areas and create programs that prioritize increased opportunities for stronger education, re-education tuition for early career job trainings for people from areas that score high on the neighborhood disadvantage index (NDI). It’s hard to argue that structural racism doesn’t exist in the Western World unless the argument is “I don’t believe data collected from Census” or “I don’t believe data collected from some of the UK’s largest study of maternal health even if it’s backed by sworn testimony of hundreds of doctors”. However, there are other ways to create additional opportunities without explicitly considering ethnicity. Applying affirmative action based approaches to something more granular, like the NDI can provide improved support to the working class as a whole, while also prioritizing the targeting of individuals from areas that most need it. For career opportunities at large corporations that have DEI policies, there could be an opt-in for good applications from those born in disadvantaged areas who apply with an agreement (for early career positions) to take on extra job-specific training in their free time. Spot on. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 9, 2023 13:26:18 GMT
Things definitely went crazy after the murder of George Floyd while under arrest. One of numerous examples of black people being killed by the police in the US. You can kind of understand why it did, not that that excuses some of the actions and words that were carried out afterwards. I agree that there are no laws currently in this country that discriminate against ethnic people and the transition to that place is a very good and welcome thing. Where are the laws that discriminate against straight, white males in this country? When have they ever existed? You can argue perfectly reasonably that working class white people are being failed by schooling but in what sense is that a deliberate act of discrimination and, surely, as I said earlier, the same failures of teaching are experienced by pupils from ethnic backgrounds in those same schools? In which case, their families must be responsible for helping them to achieve better results - again, hardly evidence of a prejudiced and legalised discriminatory approach. This is the point. Where that discrimination towards minorities definitely existed previously, it has never done so for straight white males, working class white males, etc. To think so is bollocks. And this is, I think, where the sense of victimhood that Crappy embodies comes from. There is little or no introspection from white, working class areas as to why their kids are failing. It's partly external factors like government educational funding and delivery and partly the society in which these kids grow up, where there seems to be little sense of individual responsibility within families to provide a nurturing environment that kids can do well in, which fosters a strange sense of 'entitlement' that it doesn't matter if little Johnny leaves school with no qualifications, he can spend his life on the dole or in shitty, low-paid, no future, dead-end jobs and it's somebody else's fault that that's how it turned out, which is basically where Crappy's nonsense comes from. Prejudice and discrimination it most definitely isn't. Fair points. However its not a massive leap to suggest that in our haste to highlight how ethnic people have had it rough and continue to do so because white people subconsciously encourage racism then we are maybe completely missing a huge disadvantaged sector of our society. I'd call that being discriminated against. Whether its intended or not they are being discriminated. And whilst I fully understand your cultural points about white working class being generally uninterested in their kids education, it could be construed as being a bit stereotypical. A bit like perhaps me suggesting ethnic boys are only interested in basketball or certain food types. Funny how despite what some say these things can always work in both directions. All kids should be given a half decent chance of equal opportunity through till 18. White working class kids are most definitely being ignored whether they have shitty parents or not. It needs correcting fast. I think we might have to agree to disagree about what counts as discrimination. I'm talking about laws and sanctioned or, at minimum, tolerated actions that have deliberately kept minorities (including women, although the definition of 'minority' there is obviously not accurate) away from the opportunities that those in the non-minority group have always had access to. You could argue, as cvillestokie has correctly done, that class discrimination has prevented working class people from access to some of those opportunities and I wouldn't disagree, but that is nothing to do with ethnicity as class discrimination has applied, more or less (in itself highly arguable!) across the board in preventing poorer people from having a better quality of life. I think what you're talking about is abandonment or neglect, of society leaving behind working class communities and those communities being forgotten about. That's not legalised discrimination in my mind, and it's got nothing to do with ethnicity. Nor should it be brushed under the carpet as unimportant. It does foster, in some people at least, the kind of nonsense that Crappy seeks to perpetuate and introduce into every thread - a question of whether certain ethnicities are favoured ahead of others and/or whether others are discriminated against. Whilst I agree that working class communities of all colours and beliefs are forgotten about and neglected, to claim that straight white males in particular are the victims of some form of legalised, state discrimination is bollocks. (Not saying you've done this, but Crappy has, repeatedly). I doubt whether you'll get many takers on that one, at least not outside of the EDL types. |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 9, 2023 13:49:37 GMT
Things definitely went crazy after the murder of George Floyd while under arrest. One of numerous examples of black people being killed by the police in the US. You can kind of understand why it did, not that that excuses some of the actions and words that were carried out afterwards. I agree that there are no laws currently in this country that discriminate against ethnic people and the transition to that place is a very good and welcome thing. Where are the laws that discriminate against straight, white males in this country? When have they ever existed? You can argue perfectly reasonably that working class white people are being failed by schooling but in what sense is that a deliberate act of discrimination and, surely, as I said earlier, the same failures of teaching are experienced by pupils from ethnic backgrounds in those same schools? In which case, their families must be responsible for helping them to achieve better results - again, hardly evidence of a prejudiced and legalised discriminatory approach. This is the point. Where that discrimination towards minorities definitely existed previously, it has never done so for straight white males, working class white males, etc. To think so is bollocks. And this is, I think, where the sense of victimhood that Crappy embodies comes from. There is little or no introspection from white, working class areas as to why their kids are failing. It's partly external factors like government educational funding and delivery and partly the society in which these kids grow up, where there seems to be little sense of individual responsibility within families to provide a nurturing environment that kids can do well in, which fosters a strange sense of 'entitlement' that it doesn't matter if little Johnny leaves school with no qualifications, he can spend his life on the dole or in shitty, low-paid, no future, dead-end jobs and it's somebody else's fault that that's how it turned out, which is basically where Crappy's nonsense comes from. Prejudice and discrimination it most definitely isn't. However its not a massive leap to suggest that in our haste to highlight how ethnic people have had it rough and continue to do so because white people subconsciously encourage racism then we are maybe completely missing a huge disadvantaged sector of our society. I'd call that being discriminated against. Whether its intended or not they are being discriminated. And whilst I fully understand your cultural points about white working class being generally uninterested in their kids education, it could be construed as being a bit stereotypical. A bit like perhaps me suggesting ethnic boys are only interested in basketball or certain food types. Funny how despite what some say these things can always work in both directions. All kids should be given a half decent chance of equal opportunity through till 18. White working class kids are most definitely being ignored whether they have shitty parents or not. It needs correcting fast. Spot on. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2023 15:14:09 GMT
I am sorry, I have missed it. Can you please copy and paste it as I have gone back through the thread and the only thing you have said is people are appointed on merit. So, I repeat, unless black people are inherently worse than white people at work (which I do not believe), why are they underrepresented in senior positions at work? There is little or no introspection from black areas as to why their kids are failing in life. It's partly external factors like government educational funding and delivery and partly the society in which these kids grow up, where there seems to be little sense of individual responsibility within families to provide a nurturing environment that kids can do well in, which fosters a strange sense of 'entitlement' that it doesn't matter if little Leroy leaves school with no qualifications, he can spend his life on the dole or in shitty, low-paid, no future, dead-end jobs or dealing weed and it's somebody else's fault, this in turn means that fewer blacks are able to make it to CEO positions. Prejudice and discrimination it most definitely isn't. I think you raise some good points but generally speaking, the majority of people (from every ethnicity) work hard and do their best to further themselves. I don’t think black women giving birth are suffering much worse outcomes because of what you describe. I don’t think the hard working black professionals striving to get to the top are overlooked because of what you say. But we will never agree. |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 9, 2023 15:16:20 GMT
There is little or no introspection from black areas as to why their kids are failing in life. It's partly external factors like government educational funding and delivery and partly the society in which these kids grow up, where there seems to be little sense of individual responsibility within families to provide a nurturing environment that kids can do well in, which fosters a strange sense of 'entitlement' that it doesn't matter if little Leroy leaves school with no qualifications, he can spend his life on the dole or in shitty, low-paid, no future, dead-end jobs or dealing weed and it's somebody else's fault, this in turn means that fewer blacks are able to make it to CEO positions. Prejudice and discrimination it most definitely isn't. I think you raise some good points but generally speaking, the majority of people (from every ethnicity) work hard and do their best to further themselves. I don’t think black women giving birth are suffering much worse outcomes because of what you describe. I don’t think the hard working black professionals striving to get to the top are overlooked because of what you say. But we will never agree. I agree with your first sentence but not the rest. We'll certainly never agree on that. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 9, 2023 15:57:06 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 9, 2023 18:42:58 GMT
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Post by Veritas on Oct 9, 2023 21:11:01 GMT
Heard him being ridiculed on this earlier when interviewed by Jeremy Vine on Radio 2. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 10, 2023 9:48:35 GMT
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