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Post by Northy on Nov 16, 2017 13:05:27 GMT
The report does say a lot about pre level funding, and levels 2001-2010 (when a coalition government took over) so tell us how we were suppose to fund this when there was fook all money in the country and borrowing was at obscene levels? Austerity and the wilful killing of poor people was the only answer....obviously what was the answer then? you call people murderers, come out of your glass house and give a solution |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 16, 2017 13:15:07 GMT
Austerity and the wilful killing of poor people was the only answer....obviously what was the answer then? you call people murderers, come out of your glass house and give a solution You honestly thing Austerity and the targetting of the weak and sick was the only answer to a worldwide recession? Christ these Tories have done a number on a lot of people haven't they. Just a few ideas Specialist Banks, Infrastructure spending, targetting some middle class benefits which the Tories didn't do as that would be targetting their own. Don't have an insane and unachievable target of 2015 to eliminate the deficit which targetted the poor to aid the rich. Robin Hood taxes. There's loads. I though the idea that vicious austerity targetted at the weakest in society was either desirable or even effective was debunked long ago? |
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Post by Northy on Nov 16, 2017 14:00:33 GMT
what was the answer then? you call people murderers, come out of your glass house and give a solution ? Christ these Tories have done a number on a lot of people haven't they. Just a few ideas Specialist Banks, Infrastructure spending, targetting some middle class benefits which the Tories didn't do as that would be targetting their own. Don't have an insane and unachievable target of 2015 to eliminate the deficit which targetted the poor to aid the rich. Robin Hood taxes. There's loads. I though the idea that vicious austerity targetted at the weakest in society was either desirable or even effective was debunked long ago? No I don't, but I wasn't calling people murderers, and they haven't done a job on me. Maybe you should take the blinkers off and think about what caused the austerity to be thought about in the first instance, perhaps things wouldn't have been so bad if Brown had saved for a rainy day, the 7 thin cows eating the 7 fat cows etc. etc. ? |
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Post by manmarking on Nov 16, 2017 14:06:36 GMT
what was the answer then? you call people murderers, come out of your glass house and give a solution You honestly thing Austerity and the targetting of the weak and sick was the only answer to a worldwide recession? Christ these Tories have done a number on a lot of people haven't they. Just a few ideas Specialist Banks, Infrastructure spending, targetting some middle class benefits which the Tories didn't do as that would be targetting their own. Don't have an insane and unachievable target of 2015 to eliminate the deficit which targetted the poor to aid the rich. Robin Hood taxes. There's loads. I though the idea that vicious austerity targetted at the weakest in society was either desirable or even effective was debunked long ago? momo. But trying to discuss economic theory with someone like northy is like asking a labrador to design you a pair of brogues. There's no shortage of enthusiasm, sure, but ultimately the poor sod will just end up licking his own balls because he hasn't the faintest idea what you're talking to him about  |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 16, 2017 15:10:05 GMT
You honestly thing Austerity and the targetting of the weak and sick was the only answer to a worldwide recession? Christ these Tories have done a number on a lot of people haven't they. Just a few ideas Specialist Banks, Infrastructure spending, targetting some middle class benefits which the Tories didn't do as that would be targetting their own. Don't have an insane and unachievable target of 2015 to eliminate the deficit which targetted the poor to aid the rich. Robin Hood taxes. There's loads. I though the idea that vicious austerity targetted at the weakest in society was either desirable or even effective was debunked long ago? No I don't, but I wasn't calling people murderers, and they haven't done a job on me. Maybe you should take the blinkers off and think about what caused the austerity to be thought about in the first instance, perhaps things wouldn't have been so bad if Brown had saved for a rainy day, the 7 thin cows eating the 7 fat cows etc. etc. ? They have done a number on you though haven't they. Those that concede that Labour didn't cause the recession number two former Governors of the Bank of England, The architect of austerity, George Osborne, The Economist, in fact anyone with a basic grasp of Economics. Was Brown faultless? Of course not but Austerity was a Political decision not an economic one and to be justified it had to have a narrative and that narrative was Tories sweeping up Labour mess. It was a hugely successful piece of theatre, perhaps the most successful for a generation but that's all it was, a piece of theatre, made up to justify one of the most divisive acts of economic victimisation and terrorism for a century. Sadly, these reports I fear are the tip of the iceberg, the true cost of austerity wont be known for another 50 years and when the full horror is revealed the architects will rightfully take their shameful place in history. |
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Post by Northy on Nov 16, 2017 15:15:10 GMT
No I don't, but I wasn't calling people murderers, and they haven't done a job on me. Maybe you should take the blinkers off and think about what caused the austerity to be thought about in the first instance, perhaps things wouldn't have been so bad if Brown had saved for a rainy day, the 7 thin cows eating the 7 fat cows etc. etc. ? They have done a number on you though haven't they. Those that concede that Labour didn't cause the recession number two former Governors of the Bank of England, The architect of austerity, George Osborne, The Economist, in fact anyone with a basic grasp of Economics. Was Brown faultless? Of course not but Austerity was a Political decision not an economic one and to be justified it had to have a narrative and that narrative was Tories sweeping up Labour mess. It was a hugely successful piece of theatre, perhaps the most successful for a generation but that's all it was, a piece of theatre, made up to justify one of the most divisive acts of economic victimisation and terrorism for a century. Sadly, these reports I fear are the tip of the iceberg, the true cost of austerity wont be known for another 50 years and when the full horror is revealed the architects will rightfully take their shameful place in history. I didn't say they had caused the recession, I said their actions could have helped prevent what caused the austerity to be thought about; so much austerity may not have been thought about if Brown and Blair had put away for a rainy day instead of completly emptying the coffers |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 16, 2017 15:54:09 GMT
They have done a number on you though haven't they. Those that concede that Labour didn't cause the recession number two former Governors of the Bank of England, The architect of austerity, George Osborne, The Economist, in fact anyone with a basic grasp of Economics. Was Brown faultless? Of course not but Austerity was a Political decision not an economic one and to be justified it had to have a narrative and that narrative was Tories sweeping up Labour mess. It was a hugely successful piece of theatre, perhaps the most successful for a generation but that's all it was, a piece of theatre, made up to justify one of the most divisive acts of economic victimisation and terrorism for a century. Sadly, these reports I fear are the tip of the iceberg, the true cost of austerity wont be known for another 50 years and when the full horror is revealed the architects will rightfully take their shameful place in history. I didn't say they had caused the recession, I said their actions could have helped prevent what caused the austerity to be thought about; so much austerity may not have been thought about if Brown and Blair had put away for a rainy day instead of completly emptying the coffers Yet another myth The deficit in the run up to the crash wasn't extraordinary by any measure www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-myth-excessive-government-borrowing-got-us-into-this-mess-8601390.html#galleryYou could just about argue that in the boom years they should have run a balanced budget rather than a small deficit, however that is absolutely no consequence to the Tory Government choosing targetted austerity as its path. |
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Post by Northy on Nov 16, 2017 16:52:51 GMT
I didn't say they had caused the recession, I said their actions could have helped prevent what caused the austerity to be thought about; so much austerity may not have been thought about if Brown and Blair had put away for a rainy day instead of completly emptying the coffers Yet another myth The deficit in the run up to the crash wasn't extraordinary by any measure www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-myth-excessive-government-borrowing-got-us-into-this-mess-8601390.html#galleryYou could just about argue that in the boom years they should have run a balanced budget rather than a small deficit, however that is absolutely no consequence to the Tory Government choosing targetted austerity as its path. The problem with Labour was there wastefulness, £26billion wasted on IT projects, the john Major years got the economy heading in the right direction after the early 90's recession, black Friday, george Sorros etc., the first 3 or 4 years labour benefitted from that direction until Brown changed his spending direction from the US model to a European model with a big jump in spending per GDP%, if they'd done it a more slower pace, had ministers in who knew what they were doing for teh large projects and quangos and energy we wouldn't have had the biggest debt in history when they left office in 2010, and maybe would have the electorate trusting them more. |
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Post by essexstokey on Nov 16, 2017 17:15:43 GMT
The report does say a lot about pre level funding, and levels 2001-2010 (when a coalition government took over) so tell us how we were suppose to fund this when there was fook all money in the country and borrowing was at obscene levels? Austerity and the wilful killing of poor people was the only answer....obviously that and paying bribes to other party's from the magic money tree |
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Post by essexstokey on Nov 16, 2017 17:22:42 GMT
lets face the facts the debts of this country were built up by the tory supporting bankers and bailing them out since that time the Tories have doubled the debt, cut public services, cut benefits, attacked the poor and sold off the post office on the cheep and also then sold off the privatised banks on the cheep to there mates in the city the same ones that got us in the mess in the first place. when we look at mismanagement of the economy we only have to look at the Tory party and there smoke and mirrors approach to finance.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 16, 2017 17:24:19 GMT
The problem with Labour was there wastefulness, £26billion wasted on IT projects, the john Major years got the economy heading in the right direction after the early 90's recession, black Friday, george Sorros etc., the first 3 or 4 years labour benefitted from that direction until Brown changed his spending direction from the US model to a European model with a big jump in spending per GDP%, if they'd done it a more slower pace, had ministers in who knew what they were doing for teh large projects and quangos and energy we wouldn't have had the biggest debt in history when they left office in 2010, and maybe would have the electorate trusting them more. So we are getting somewhere now though aren't we. Labour weren't responsible for the global crash and the deficit they ran up until the crash was unextraordinary in historic terms. Austerity. The targeting of the weakest in society, was a political dogma entirely down to the Tory Party and it is the Tory Party who must answer for its devastating life destroying consequences. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 16, 2017 17:29:21 GMT
Is there an echo in here? Hey, if you like the independent this guy is one of their chief political journo's...  No comment on the vicious and targetted dogma of the party you love causing the death of of over 100,000 people, Rog? I guess not, that's just collateral damage to a Tory isn't it and they're only poor people anyway. Not just the nasty party, they are the evil murdering filth party and you are a card carrying member. Well done Rog. You must be a very proud man. None whatsoever, as usual. |
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Post by felonious on Nov 16, 2017 17:48:35 GMT
what was the answer then? you call people murderers, come out of your glass house and give a solution You honestly thing Austerity and the targetting of the weak and sick was the only answer to a worldwide recession? Christ these Tories have done a number on a lot of people haven't they. Just a few ideas Specialist Banks, Infrastructure spending, targetting some middle class benefits which the Tories didn't do as that would be targetting their own. Don't have an insane and unachievable target of 2015 to eliminate the deficit which targetted the poor to aid the rich. Robin Hood taxes. There's loads. I though the idea that vicious austerity targetted at the weakest in society was either desirable or even effective was debunked long ago? I think you'll find, if you choose to open your eyes, that the middle classes have been hammered by the Conservative party. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 16, 2017 18:11:34 GMT
lets face the facts the debts of this country were built up by the tory supporting bankers and bailing them out since that time the Tories have doubled the debt, cut public services, cut benefits, attacked the poor and sold off the post office on the cheep and also then sold off the privatised banks on the cheep to there mates in the city the same ones that got us in the mess in the first place. when we look at mismanagement of the economy we only have to look at the Tory party and there smoke and mirrors approach to finance. "Facts" Lolz. |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 16, 2017 18:22:45 GMT
What was the body count for War Marshall Blair's foreign policy, just out of interest? Did we keep a tally on that one?
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 16, 2017 18:27:05 GMT
No comment on the vicious and targetted dogma of the party you love causing the death of of over 100,000 people, Rog? I guess not, that's just collateral damage to a Tory isn't it and they're only poor people anyway. Not just the nasty party, they are the evil murdering filth party and you are a card carrying member. Well done Rog. You must be a very proud man. None whatsoever, as usual. Maybe that's because he read and understood the article unlike you and MoMo, you actually expect a debate when your starting point is the Conservatives killed 100,000 people even though the article clearly says the following Professor Martin Roland Emeritus Professor of Health Services Research, University of Cambridge said: “This study suggests that a change happened to cause deaths to stop declining around 2014. This is likely to be a correct finding. However, the link to health and social care spending is speculative as observational studies of this type can never prove cause and effect."
The papers’ senior author and a researcher at UCL, Dr Ben Maruthappu, said that while the paper “can’t prove cause and effect” it shows an association. So there is no proof it is anything to do with austerity, why not blame Swansea being promoted to the premier league this is around the same period maybe that is a cause  The 100,000 on pure maths is highly speculative, the study covers a 4 year period 2010 to 2014 where they identified 45,000 deaths and then extrapolate this to 120,000 based on the assumption this continues even though they can not definitively identify what caused this, its really not hard to see why you swallowed project fear whole is it I'm also looking at this report I can't see Wales or Scotland mentioned surely with Labour and the SNP in control, they should be able to identify the opposite trend. Pound to a pinch of shit the reports authors are heavily tied back to Labour and probably Momentum looney tunes........... |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 16, 2017 18:36:39 GMT
lets face the facts the debts of this country were built up by the tory supporting bankers and bailing them out since that time the Tories have doubled the debt, cut public services, cut benefits, attacked the poor and sold off the post office on the cheep and also then sold off the privatised banks on the cheep to there mates in the city the same ones that got us in the mess in the first place. when we look at mismanagement of the economy we only have to look at the Tory party and there smoke and mirrors approach to finance. Annual Budget deficit left by Labour £145 billion, actual cash lent to the banks £123.93 billion - who is to blame again then Essex And this deficit Labour left wasn't investment spending it was the day to day spending that continues year upon year. www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/nov/12/bank-bailouts-uk-credit-crunch |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 16, 2017 18:38:39 GMT
<Alert> <Alert> What's that, my faithful sidekick, Arsekiss? Someone is making negative comments towards the Conservative Party on the Oatcake? Why, I, Waylon followyoudown will assume my heroic secret identity and become King of the Brown Nosers. I will right this wrong and spring to their defence with the speed of a sloppy turd exiting Queen Theresa's wrinkly anus. Stand back, Arsekiss, while I unleash my two main weapons - deflection and condescension. Hurrah for the Blueshirts  |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 16, 2017 18:47:41 GMT
I didn't say they had caused the recession, I said their actions could have helped prevent what caused the austerity to be thought about; so much austerity may not have been thought about if Brown and Blair had put away for a rainy day instead of completly emptying the coffers Yet another myth The deficit in the run up to the crash wasn't extraordinary by any measure www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-myth-excessive-government-borrowing-got-us-into-this-mess-8601390.html#galleryYou could just about argue that in the boom years they should have run a balanced budget rather than a small deficit, however that is absolutely no consequence to the Tory Government choosing targetted austerity as its path. But, momo, You can't do that with pillocks from the right like Northy, fraise, followyoudown, salop, Todger etc it's their entire raison d'etre for blaming the country's woes on Labour. If you remove that brick, the whole sorry edifice comes crashing down. It's almost become a gestalt entity they have a beer with! Someone will mention the "there's no money left note" at some point as evidence that "it was Labour what got us in this mess" Or PFI - it's another favourite. Oddly enough still just as popular with this government over the last seven years lol |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 16, 2017 18:48:26 GMT
None whatsoever, as usual. Maybe that's because he read and understood the article unlike you and MoMo, you actually expect a debate when your starting point is the Conservatives killed 100,000 people even though the article clearly says the following Professor Martin Roland Emeritus Professor of Health Services Research, University of Cambridge said: “This study suggests that a change happened to cause deaths to stop declining around 2014. This is likely to be a correct finding. However, the link to health and social care spending is speculative as observational studies of this type can never prove cause and effect."
The papers’ senior author and a researcher at UCL, Dr Ben Maruthappu, said that while the paper “can’t prove cause and effect” it shows an association. So there is no proof it is anything to do with austerity, why not blame Swansea being promoted to the premier league this is around the same period maybe that is a cause The 100,000 on pure maths is highly speculative, the study covers a 4 year period 2010 to 2014 where they identified 45,000 deaths and then extrapolate this to 120,000 based on the assumption this continues even though they can not definitively identify what caused this, its really not hard to see why you swallowed project fear whole is it I'm also looking at this report I can't see Wales or Scotland mentioned surely with Labour and the SNP in control, they should be able to identify the opposite trend. Pound to a pinch of shit the reports authors are heavily tied back to Labour and probably Momentum looney tunes........... Yeah. Wot he said. I'm also busy at BUPA's shareholder of the year awards champagne lunch. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 16, 2017 18:56:55 GMT
None whatsoever, as usual. Maybe that's because he read and understood the article unlike you and MoMo, you actually expect a debate when your starting point is the Conservatives killed 100,000 people even though the article clearly says the following Professor Martin Roland Emeritus Professor of Health Services Research, University of Cambridge said: “This study suggests that a change happened to cause deaths to stop declining around 2014. This is likely to be a correct finding. However, the link to health and social care spending is speculative as observational studies of this type can never prove cause and effect."
The papers’ senior author and a researcher at UCL, Dr Ben Maruthappu, said that while the paper “can’t prove cause and effect” it shows an association. So there is no proof it is anything to do with austerity, why not blame Swansea being promoted to the premier league this is around the same period maybe that is a cause The 100,000 on pure maths is highly speculative, the study covers a 4 year period 2010 to 2014 where they identified 45,000 deaths and then extrapolate this to 120,000 based on the assumption this continues even though they can not definitively identify what caused this, its really not hard to see why you swallowed project fear whole is it I'm also looking at this report I can't see Wales or Scotland mentioned surely with Labour and the SNP in control, they should be able to identify the opposite trend. Pound to a pinch of shit the reports authors are heavily tied back to Labour and probably Momentum looney tunes........... You are as usual talking out of your arse. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2017 19:26:00 GMT
Maybe that's because he read and understood the article unlike you and MoMo, you actually expect a debate when your starting point is the Conservatives killed 100,000 people even though the article clearly says the following Professor Martin Roland Emeritus Professor of Health Services Research, University of Cambridge said: “This study suggests that a change happened to cause deaths to stop declining around 2014. This is likely to be a correct finding. However, the link to health and social care spending is speculative as observational studies of this type can never prove cause and effect."
The papers’ senior author and a researcher at UCL, Dr Ben Maruthappu, said that while the paper “can’t prove cause and effect” it shows an association. So there is no proof it is anything to do with austerity, why not blame Swansea being promoted to the premier league this is around the same period maybe that is a cause The 100,000 on pure maths is highly speculative, the study covers a 4 year period 2010 to 2014 where they identified 45,000 deaths and then extrapolate this to 120,000 based on the assumption this continues even though they can not definitively identify what caused this, its really not hard to see why you swallowed project fear whole is it I'm also looking at this report I can't see Wales or Scotland mentioned surely with Labour and the SNP in control, they should be able to identify the opposite trend. Pound to a pinch of shit the reports authors are heavily tied back to Labour and probably Momentum looney tunes........... Yeah. Wot he said. I'm also busy at BUPA's shareholder of the year awards champagne lunch. Still moonlighting with the bar work then Rog? |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 16, 2017 20:05:58 GMT
Maybe that's because he read and understood the article unlike you and MoMo, you actually expect a debate when your starting point is the Conservatives killed 100,000 people even though the article clearly says the following Professor Martin Roland Emeritus Professor of Health Services Research, University of Cambridge said: “This study suggests that a change happened to cause deaths to stop declining around 2014. This is likely to be a correct finding. However, the link to health and social care spending is speculative as observational studies of this type can never prove cause and effect."
The papers’ senior author and a researcher at UCL, Dr Ben Maruthappu, said that while the paper “can’t prove cause and effect” it shows an association. So there is no proof it is anything to do with austerity, why not blame Swansea being promoted to the premier league this is around the same period maybe that is a cause The 100,000 on pure maths is highly speculative, the study covers a 4 year period 2010 to 2014 where they identified 45,000 deaths and then extrapolate this to 120,000 based on the assumption this continues even though they can not definitively identify what caused this, its really not hard to see why you swallowed project fear whole is it I'm also looking at this report I can't see Wales or Scotland mentioned surely with Labour and the SNP in control, they should be able to identify the opposite trend. Pound to a pinch of shit the reports authors are heavily tied back to Labour and probably Momentum looney tunes........... You are as usual talking out of your arse. The usual well researched and argued response you are famous for in the absence of your beloved memes. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 16, 2017 20:35:18 GMT
You are as usual talking out of your arse. The usual well researched and argued response you are famous for in the absence of your beloved memes. As you get yours from the Russian Funded Guido Fawkes site, I have every right to say you're talking out of your arse. |
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Post by 828492 on Nov 16, 2017 21:16:33 GMT
lets face the facts the debts of this country were built up by the tory supporting bankers and bailing them out since that time the Tories have doubled the debt, cut public services, cut benefits, attacked the poor and sold off the post office on the cheep and also then sold off the privatised banks on the cheep to there mates in the city the same ones that got us in the mess in the first place. when we look at mismanagement of the economy we only have to look at the Tory party and there smoke and mirrors approach to finance. "Facts" Lolz. So Mr Intellectual Rigour, did Priity Useless ‘resign’ because: (A). She was the best ever minister for overseas aid; (B). She held 12 meetings with Israeli officials without telling her department (C). She lied about when her boss knew about those meetings (D). She had a couple of extra meetings she did not admit to (E). She lied to the Maybot about the number of unauthorised meetings she had had with Israeli officials (F). She tried to have money fromthe UK overseas aid budget paid to the Israeli army to suppport their work in the occcupied Golan Heights (G). She failed to cross a few Ts and dot a few Is (H). She is an all round good egg who is just misunderstood in her frantic efforts to be leader of the nasty party. Which one of these best describes her? |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 16, 2017 21:38:42 GMT
The usual well researched and argued response you are famous for in the absence of your beloved memes. As you get yours from the Russian Funded Guido Fawkes site, I have every right to say you're talking out of your arse. Really link to Guido Fawkes where my argument re the report comes from then, you'll struggle as they have not even mentioned it. As you so against russian funding I assume you will obviously be calling for the deselection of those labour mp's who appear on Russia today. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 16, 2017 21:39:08 GMT
So Mr Intellectual Rigour, did Priity Useless ‘resign’ because: (A). She was the best ever minister for overseas aid; (B). She held 12 meetings with Israeli officials without telling her department (C). She lied about when her boss knew about those meetings (D). She had a couple of extra meetings she did not admit to (E). She lied to the Maybot about the number of unauthorised meetings she had had with Israeli officials (F). She tried to have money fromthe UK overseas aid budget paid to the Israeli army to suppport their work in the occcupied Golan Heights (G). She failed to cross a few Ts and dot a few Is (H). She is an all round good egg who is just misunderstood in her frantic efforts to be leader of the nasty party. Which one of these best describes her? Well I hate to tell you this after all your typing but at a stretch G. Actually I don't hate to tell you :-) |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 16, 2017 21:40:04 GMT
The usual well researched and argued response you are famous for in the absence of your beloved memes. As you get yours from the Russian Funded Guido Fawkes site, I have every right to say you're talking out of your arse. Russia funded. Lolz. |
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Post by 828492 on Nov 16, 2017 21:41:45 GMT
So Mr Intellectual Rigour, did Priity Useless ‘resign’ because: (A). She was the best ever minister for overseas aid; (B). She held 12 meetings with Israeli officials without telling her department (C). She lied about when her boss knew about those meetings (D). She had a couple of extra meetings she did not admit to (E). She lied to the Maybot about the number of unauthorised meetings she had had with Israeli officials (F). She tried to have money fromthe UK overseas aid budget paid to the Israeli army to suppport their work in the occcupied Golan Heights (G). She failed to cross a few Ts and dot a few Is (H). She is an all round good egg who is just misunderstood in her frantic efforts to be leader of the nasty party. Which one of these best describes her? Well I hate to tell you this after all your typing but at a stretch G. Actually I don't hate to tell you :-) Well that is not what the Maybot, or indeed any sentient being, believes. But you are entitled to your opinion. However demented. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 16, 2017 22:12:11 GMT
Is there an echo in here? Hey, if you like the independent this guy is one of their chief political journo's... No comment on the vicious and targetted dogma of the party you love causing the death of of over 100,000 people, Rog? I guess not, that's just collateral damage to a Tory isn't it and they're only poor people anyway. Not just the nasty party, they are the evil murdering filth party and you are a card carrying member. Well done Rog. You must be a very proud man. If you ain't got a card you ain't getting in.... hic  Attachment Deleted |
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