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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 21:30:32 GMT
That is a really good article Joe. I will say one thing, yes, I agree there are always common misconceptions amongst England fans, but I totally disagree that England fans expect too much. Expectancy levels right now are rock bottom. The quality of player in the national Squad right now is worse than it has eve been. The reason why we never rise above mediocrity in tournaments is because of of deep rooted issues in our football culture. Put simply, our players are thick, the coaches and managers are thick, even our press pack are thick. In 2004 we had Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole etc... On paper, in times gone by, we have had players who can match anyone. But have we played like that? Never. In 2004 scholes was the best midfielder in the world and in my lifetime, along with gazza, the only midfielder capable of running the game against top class opposition. What did eriksson do? Shoe horned him at left wing to accommodate two players in lampard and gerrard that just could not play together in the centre. It is this total lack of tactical awareness and game intelligence which is so deep rooted. Even now, look at southgates' team selections! We will never be any good. In the early noughties we had a team packed with top top talent and never looked like doing anything. And now, we have a shocking selection of players in comparison. Still, it is better on paper than the German team of 2002, who I saw in person get mullered by England. One year later they were in a world cup final. It is all about having a strategy. 'what weakness does our opponent have, how do we exploit it, how can we cover our own weaknesses'. There has never been any evidence to me in my 38 years on this earth of an England manager addressing these questions. Yes, for us to be successful we would need to completely change our approach to tactics, but then again we have never really cared about the performance of the national team in this country. And that is why I have given up, absolutely sick of watching the shit that England churn out every game without fail. But I totally disagree with any argument that England fans expect too much.Most expect failure. When in fact England's football history is one of humiliating under achievement. Very good thought provoking write-up though.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 21:40:59 GMT
Another thing that pisses me off is how we always go with the latest tactical fad, without forging our own identity. So the other night we have to watch henderson and dier, two workmanlike plodders being absolutely shit.
Alli should be dropping in to midfield as we need a ball player there, with a combative mobile player next to him. Don't play dier or henderson there just because they play for glamour clubs. They are wank...absolutely wank! We should look down the league for the best english player who will do a dirty job as foil for Alli. But no, we pick on personality. So we also have Butland looking on as Hart produces another non-existent display.
Our wing backs are shit, overrated, but we play a system with our attacking focus on them.
It's all wrong, we should just appoint German managers from now on.
There, got it off my chest
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Post by spiderpuss on Sept 6, 2017 21:42:58 GMT
That is a really good article Joe. I will say one thing, yes, I agree there are always common misconceptions amongst England fans, but I totally disagree that England fans expect too much. Expectancy levels right now are rock bottom. The quality of player in the national Squad right now is worse than it has eve been. The reason why we never rise above mediocrity in tournaments is because of of deep rooted issues in our football culture. Put simply, our players are thick, the coaches and managers are thick, even our press pack are thick. In 2004 we had Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole etc... On paper, in times gone by, we have had players who can match anyone. But have we played like that? Never. In 2004 scholes was the best midfielder in the world and in my lifetime, along with gazza, the only midfielder capable of running the game against top class opposition. What did eriksson do? Shoe horned him at left wing to accommodate two players in lampard and gerrard that just could not play together in the centre. It is this total lack of tactical awareness and game intelligence which is so deep rooted. Even now, look at southgates' team selections! We will never be any good. In the early noughties we had a team packed with top top talent and never looked like doing anything. And now, we have a shocking selection of players in comparison. Still, it is better on paper than the German team of 2002, who I saw in person get mullered by England. One year later they were in a world cup final. It is all about having a strategy. 'what weakness does our opponent have, how do we exploit it, how can we cover our own weaknesses'. There has never been any evidence to me in my 38 years on this earth of an England manager addressing these questions. Yes, for us to be successful we would need to completely change our approach to tactics, but then again we have never really cared about the performance of the national team in this country. And that is why I have given up, absolutely sick of watching the shit that England churn out every game without fail. But I totally disagree with any argument that England fans expect too much.Most expect failure. When in fact England's football history is one of humiliating under achievement. Very good thought provoking write-up though. Agree, anyone expects anything from this England team are a fool to themselves. You are conning yourself. England are now the "Sweden" of tournaments, give it a good gamely go, but in the end will lose to some non-descript side and bow out without not too many people noticing. To see the root problem, you have to look no further than the division we are in. Chelsea sucking the very life out of the division, with a myriad of youths at their disposal. Are any in their 1st team? Are they balls. We not quite as innocent either, with the last regular youth coming into the 1st team I think was "Shotts" plus the academy coming up with very few players to compete for a 1st team place. Hopefully that changes for us. However for the top 6 its too easy to sign a 50M player than consider anything below the age of 25. Compare this with Germany who can field apparently 4 different sides in Russia, mostly of younger talent. It will never change until the spiral of money is broken and clubs are forced to select their own players.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 6, 2017 21:44:16 GMT
That is a really good article Joe. I will say one thing, yes, I agree there are always common misconceptions amongst England fans, but I totally disagree that England fans expect too much. Expectancy levels right now are rock bottom. The quality of player in the national Squad right now is worse than it has eve been. The reason why we never rise above mediocrity in tournaments is because of of deep rooted issues in our football culture. Put simply, our players are thick, the coaches and managers are thick, even our press pack are thick. In 2004 we had Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole etc... On paper, in times gone by, we have had players who can match anyone. But have we played like that? Never. In 2004 scholes was the best midfielder in the world and in my lifetime, along with gazza, the only midfielder capable of running the game against top class opposition. What did eriksson do? Shoe horned him at left wing to accommodate two players in lampard and gerrard that just could not play together in the centre. It is this total lack of tactical awareness and game intelligence which is so deep rooted. Even now, look at southgates' team selections! We will never be any good. In the early noughties we had a team packed with top top talent and never looked like doing anything. And now, we have a shocking selection of players in comparison. Still, it is better on paper than the German team of 2002, who I saw in person get mullered by England. One year later they were in a world cup final. It is all about having a strategy. 'what weakness does our opponent have, how do we exploit it, how can we cover our own weaknesses'. There has never been any evidence to me in my 38 years on this earth of an England manager addressing these questions. Yes, for us to be successful we would need to completely change our approach to tactics, but then again we have never really cared about the performance of the national team in this country. And that is why I have given up, absolutely sick of watching the shit that England churn out every game without fail. But I totally disagree with any argument that England fans expect too much.Most expect failure. When in fact England's football history is one of humiliating under achievement. Very good thought provoking write-up though. Agree 100% about the football culture issue. It almost prides itself on ignorance. Which doesn't sit well with a global multi cultural game like football. I agree expectation has dropped off but if we get knocked out in the quarter final next year there will still be mutterings of failure. Depends on the nature and opponent involved in the exit too. On this very thread someone refers to not being good enough to win the world cup as if it's a feasible goal. Which is like berating Leslie Grantham for not winning an Oscar! ☺ Also noticeable everyone says how shit we are then moan about being knocked out. If we are shit why are they moaning what did they expect? Also perception changes according to people's preconceived ideas. In 2008 we thrashed Croatia 4-1 away and one person on here said they were a pub team!! Croatia a pub team😀😀. That's desperation!
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 6, 2017 21:44:17 GMT
That is a really good article Joe. I will say one thing, yes, I agree there are always common misconceptions amongst England fans, but I totally disagree that England fans expect too much. Expectancy levels right now are rock bottom. The quality of player in the national Squad right now is worse than it has eve been. The reason why we never rise above mediocrity in tournaments is because of of deep rooted issues in our football culture. Put simply, our players are thick, the coaches and managers are thick, even our press pack are thick. In 2004 we had Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole etc... On paper, in times gone by, we have had players who can match anyone. But have we played like that? Never. In 2004 scholes was the best midfielder in the world and in my lifetime, along with gazza, the only midfielder capable of running the game against top class opposition. What did eriksson do? Shoe horned him at left wing to accommodate two players in lampard and gerrard that just could not play together in the centre. It is this total lack of tactical awareness and game intelligence which is so deep rooted. Even now, look at southgates' team selections! We will never be any good. In the early noughties we had a team packed with top top talent and never looked like doing anything. And now, we have a shocking selection of players in comparison. Still, it is better on paper than the German team of 2002, who I saw in person get mullered by England. One year later they were in a world cup final. It is all about having a strategy. 'what weakness does our opponent have, how do we exploit it, how can we cover our own weaknesses'. There has never been any evidence to me in my 38 years on this earth of an England manager addressing these questions. Yes, for us to be successful we would need to completely change our approach to tactics, but then again we have never really cared about the performance of the national team in this country. And that is why I have given up, absolutely sick of watching the shit that England churn out every game without fail. But I totally disagree with any argument that England fans expect too much.Most expect failure. When in fact England's football history is one of humiliating under achievement. Very good thought provoking write-up though. You only need to walk around local parks to understand what is wrong in England. Last week I saw 4 games with kids going in my local park ages between 7-12. Near Full sized pitches, 11 against 11 competitive football, all the parents shouting for their sons to kick it, head it, belt it, get stuck in etc. 22 headless chickens. The passing and shooting was awful. Why? Because no one was stopping the game at any point to explain what and how the kids could do things differently. It was all about winning, absolutely nothing else. Poor technical skills which are going to be no better the following week. Brainless!!!
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 7, 2017 5:33:13 GMT
That is a really good article Joe. I will say one thing, yes, I agree there are always common misconceptions amongst England fans, but I totally disagree that England fans expect too much. Expectancy levels right now are rock bottom. The quality of player in the national Squad right now is worse than it has eve been. The reason why we never rise above mediocrity in tournaments is because of of deep rooted issues in our football culture. Put simply, our players are thick, the coaches and managers are thick, even our press pack are thick. In 2004 we had Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole etc... On paper, in times gone by, we have had players who can match anyone. But have we played like that? Never. In 2004 scholes was the best midfielder in the world and in my lifetime, along with gazza, the only midfielder capable of running the game against top class opposition. What did eriksson do? Shoe horned him at left wing to accommodate two players in lampard and gerrard that just could not play together in the centre. It is this total lack of tactical awareness and game intelligence which is so deep rooted. Even now, look at southgates' team selections! We will never be any good. In the early noughties we had a team packed with top top talent and never looked like doing anything. And now, we have a shocking selection of players in comparison. Still, it is better on paper than the German team of 2002, who I saw in person get mullered by England. One year later they were in a world cup final. It is all about having a strategy. 'what weakness does our opponent have, how do we exploit it, how can we cover our own weaknesses'. There has never been any evidence to me in my 38 years on this earth of an England manager addressing these questions. Yes, for us to be successful we would need to completely change our approach to tactics, but then again we have never really cared about the performance of the national team in this country. And that is why I have given up, absolutely sick of watching the shit that England churn out every game without fail. But I totally disagree with any argument that England fans expect too much.Most expect failure. When in fact England's football history is one of humiliating under achievement. Very good thought provoking write-up though. You only need to walk around local parks to understand what is wrong in England. Last week I saw 4 games with kids going in my local park ages between 7-12. Near Full sized pitches, 11 against 11 competitive football, all the parents shouting for their sons to kick it, head it, belt it, get stuck in etc. 22 headless chickens. The passing and shooting was awful. Why? Because no one was stopping the game at any point to explain what and how the kids could do things differently. It was all about winning, absolutely nothing else. Poor technical skills which are going to be no better the following week. Brainless!!! IMHO kids playing on pitches too big is a huge part of the inferiority of English players. In formative years emphasis should be on kids being confident controlling and using the ball in tight areas. Instead they spend time standing about. The quickest and most physically robust are the ones that shine but after a certain time that's less useful. You don't become a great pianist by running around the piano.
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Post by greyman on Sept 7, 2017 7:53:54 GMT
You only need to walk around local parks to understand what is wrong in England. Last week I saw 4 games with kids going in my local park ages between 7-12. Near Full sized pitches, 11 against 11 competitive football, all the parents shouting for their sons to kick it, head it, belt it, get stuck in etc. 22 headless chickens. The passing and shooting was awful. Why? Because no one was stopping the game at any point to explain what and how the kids could do things differently. It was all about winning, absolutely nothing else. Poor technical skills which are going to be no better the following week. Brainless!!! IMHO kids playing on pitches too big is a huge part of the inferiority of English players. In formative years emphasis should be on kids being confident controlling and using the ball in tight areas. Instead they spend time standing about. The quickest and most physically robust are the ones that shine but after a certain time that's less useful. You don't become a great pianist by running around the piano. Exactly this. I remember when my lads suddenly went from six a side with hockey goals to a full sized pitch. The sight of an eleven year old in a full sized goal is ridiculous, as is kids running through long grass in all weathers with the game dominated by whoever get it furthest down the pitch quickest. Not to mention parents constantly yelling at them to get rid and get stuck in.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 7, 2017 8:29:07 GMT
IMHO kids playing on pitches too big is a huge part of the inferiority of English players. In formative years emphasis should be on kids being confident controlling and using the ball in tight areas. Instead they spend time standing about. The quickest and most physically robust are the ones that shine but after a certain time that's less useful. You don't become a great pianist by running around the piano. Exactly this. I remember when my lads suddenly went from six a side with hockey goals to a full sized pitch. The sight of an eleven year old in a full sized goal is ridiculous, as is kids running through long grass in all weathers with the game dominated by whoever get it furthest down the pitch quickest. Not to mention parents constantly yelling at them to get rid and get stuck in. I was under the impression full sized pitches and parents yelling at the kids was discouraged these days.
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Post by greyman on Sept 7, 2017 9:17:17 GMT
Exactly this. I remember when my lads suddenly went from six a side with hockey goals to a full sized pitch. The sight of an eleven year old in a full sized goal is ridiculous, as is kids running through long grass in all weathers with the game dominated by whoever get it furthest down the pitch quickest. Not to mention parents constantly yelling at them to get rid and get stuck in. I was under the impression full sized pitches and parents yelling at the kids was discouraged these days. Discouraged is the word. Clubs might ask parents to sign up to a code of conduct but then you still hear all sorts from certain people that goes ignored. All depends on the club. Some are a disgrace. As for the pitches, kids play on what's available, so that's sometimes good, sometimes not. Some councils barely cut the grass on municipal pitches so it's a shame more money doesn't get to that level. On a related note, have you read No Hunger in Paradise?
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 7, 2017 9:35:42 GMT
Exactly this. I remember when my lads suddenly went from six a side with hockey goals to a full sized pitch. The sight of an eleven year old in a full sized goal is ridiculous, as is kids running through long grass in all weathers with the game dominated by whoever get it furthest down the pitch quickest. Not to mention parents constantly yelling at them to get rid and get stuck in. I was under the impression full sized pitches and parents yelling at the kids was discouraged these days. If thats true then no-one has told the crowds of parents who assemble every weekend at my local park. Parents may not necessarily shouting abuse, but what they are shouting is actually not helping them to develop their game either. They are just inciting competitiveness. On its own competitiveness is not enough. You can see the kids actually regressing as footballers before your eyes. For example, It might be much more worthwhile if they collectively hired a decent coach who could stop the game every 5 minutes and explain/demonstrate what they could have/should have done and worked on exercises to address these. Instead all their errors are repeated over and over again and are becoming embedded into their game. The parents just seem to want a win and that's what the kids are brainwashed into thinking is the only thing that matters. There is talent there but it is not nurtured, actually it is diminishing in front of everyone's eyes.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 7, 2017 11:12:47 GMT
I was under the impression full sized pitches and parents yelling at the kids was discouraged these days. If thats true then no-one has told the crowds of parents who assemble every weekend at my local park. Parents may not necessarily shouting abuse, but what they are shouting is actually not helping them to develop their game either. They are just inciting competitiveness. On its own competitiveness is not enough. You can see the kids actually regressing as footballers before your eyes. For example, It might be much more worthwhile if they collectively hired a decent coach who could stop the game every 5 minutes and explain/demonstrate what they could have/should have done and worked on exercises to address these. Instead all their errors are repeated over and over again and are becoming embedded into their game. The parents just seem to want a win and that's what the kids are brainwashed into thinking is the only thing that matters. There is talent there but it is not nurtured, actually it is diminishing in front of everyone's eyes. One thing for a lot of kids coaching systems is to let kids play but make notes and discuss the game with them afterwards, thus enabling the player to be aware of a flaw and rectify it either during the game or after the talk. This is obviously more productive in different football mindsets where thinking football is encouraged from an early age.
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 7, 2017 12:17:08 GMT
If thats true then no-one has told the crowds of parents who assemble every weekend at my local park. Parents may not necessarily shouting abuse, but what they are shouting is actually not helping them to develop their game either. They are just inciting competitiveness. On its own competitiveness is not enough. You can see the kids actually regressing as footballers before your eyes. For example, It might be much more worthwhile if they collectively hired a decent coach who could stop the game every 5 minutes and explain/demonstrate what they could have/should have done and worked on exercises to address these. Instead all their errors are repeated over and over again and are becoming embedded into their game. The parents just seem to want a win and that's what the kids are brainwashed into thinking is the only thing that matters. There is talent there but it is not nurtured, actually it is diminishing in front of everyone's eyes. One thing for a lot of kids coaching systems is to let kids play but make notes and discuss the game with them afterwards, thus enabling the player to be aware of a flaw and rectify it either during the game or after the talk. This is obviously more productive in different football mindsets where thinking football is encouraged from an early age. The games Ive seen 5 minutes after the final whistle everyone is in their cars and on their way home with the winners looking jubilant and the losers looking disgruntled.
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 7, 2017 12:58:00 GMT
The trouble is there is to much coaching going on Youngsters are having any talent coached out of them
Years ago lads spent there early years kicking a ball about with their mates in the streets Now at six or seven they are put into a system that strangles natural ability and concentrates on systems
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 7, 2017 13:36:20 GMT
I agree with many of the comments on this page, mostly provoked by Joe's article.
I totally agree with Joe about "passion". It's a dumbed down phone in phrase that has little to do with elite sport. In fact, quite the opposite. If you listen to say, Martin Johnson or some of the current Rugby Union players, it is quite the opposite. Planning, preparation, execution. It has an echo of military precision.
I also agree with GlasgowStokie's condemnation of our players mental and cultural approach. The vast majority live in a cossetted bubble with little appreciation of the world around them. Worse still, from the age of about 8, they have everything done for them by clubs and agents. I don't know this for a fact, but I believe that for our top players, all travel arrangements are made for them, their diets are controlled, and I'm fairly sure their financial affairs are managed too. In short, they don't have to think for themselves, and therefore understandably un-learn the habit.
The trouble is, this comes out on the pitch. I was embarrassed during the shambles against Iceland. I watched a group of reasonably talented players not knowing what to do. They couldn't think for themselves, or find a way to get the best of their superior talent as a group and win the game.
Finally, I have made the point before about picking a team, not just the best 11 players. Alf Ramsey acknowledged that Jack Charlton may not have been the best centre half in England, but he fit alongside the imperious Bobby Moore. Alf also had the courage to drop the incredibly talented Jimmy Greaves in favour of Geoff Hurst. That worked out OK.
Past England teams need to adapt to tournament football. So instead of playing Gerrard and Lampard, we play one, and use the other as a sub. Change it in a game or as cover for injuries, suspension, loss of form etc. When a fresh Rui Costa came off the bench for Portugal and destroyed us in extra time of the Euro 2004 semi final, Sven brought on Darius Vassell. The point about Paul Scholes is frightening: the national team should have been built around a genuine world class player. A passing, goal scoring midfielder*. Instead, because he may not have been a media darling, he is shunted out of position.
I have some hope for Southgate because he strikes me as an intelligent bloke. He must by now know that Hart is finished. Let's hope he learns from that and finds a better balance to get the best out of our talented players like Butland, Ali, Kane and Rashford.
*Paul Scholes gave the best performance I've seen at The Brit/Bet when Manchester United beat us 2-0 at home. He absolutely ran the game. He was always available to receive the ball and pick a pass, always finding space, having time, not wasting a ball and always moving us around. He could do this moving from the half way line to the edge of our box. He was so good that day I think he could have walked the ball into the net.
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