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Post by lancashirelad on Sept 5, 2017 6:50:48 GMT
Good win. Team marks 6 being average. Hart 6. Walker 5 Cahill 5 Jones 7 Bertram 5; Dier 4 Henderson 7; ox 5 Alli 7 Rashford 8 Kane 6 Hart gets a 6 he had only one thing to do and didn't do it that constitutes below adverage He did make one block save early in the second half and most of his work was average . For the goal he was not responsible but he made his body shape as big as he could it's just not as big a shape as Jack or as quick.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 5, 2017 7:04:52 GMT
Hart gets a 6 he had only one thing to do and didn't do it that constitutes below adverage He did make one block save early in the second half and most of his work was average . For the goal he was not responsible but he made his body shape as big as he could it's just not as big a shape as Jack or as quick. There was one save some were saying was ace but it was straight at him.
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Post by greyman on Sept 5, 2017 7:37:12 GMT
All of it is warranted. We know what's coming at the finals. We also know that Southgate will feel like his selections are justified and they'll all be exposed the moment we come up against a half decent opponent, and maybe even a team like Iceland again. Disagree. People lose all sense of rational thought when it comes to the England team. Criticise now for what's coming next year being a prime example. And some no doubt think quarter final would be a failure when, bu any historical measure, it's a decent result for England. I'd be delighted with a quarter final. Won't happen. We'll see the same mistakes we always make and for all the same reasons. I don't know how many times it has to happen before somebody gets a grip of it. If we even had a manager who picked on form rather than club and fucking sponsorship deals, it would be a start. The only thing we achieved last night was for Southgate to feel justified in his shitty tactics and player selection. This is why fewer and fewer people care about England. My tipping point was Roy Hodgson taking Jack Wilshere to the Euros. As soon as I saw that, I knew we'd had it.
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Post by salopstick on Sept 5, 2017 7:42:39 GMT
Some of the critisism thrown at England is warranted, some of it isn't. That was only the 3rd goal we've conceeded in qualifying. The other two were against Scotland. If that was stoke v Southampton We would have been happy with the result, not happy with the first 35 minutes but very happy at our comeback and second half performance
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Post by Northy on Sept 5, 2017 8:26:24 GMT
Hart gets a 6 he had only one thing to do and didn't do it that constitutes below adverage He did make one block save early in the second half and most of his work was average . For the goal he was not responsible but he made his body shape as big as he could it's just not as big a shape as Jack or as quick. he was very slow to come out and attempt to block the shot, Jack would have been all over that
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 5, 2017 8:27:39 GMT
Some of the critisism thrown at England is warranted, some of it isn't. That was only the 3rd goal we've conceeded in qualifying. The other two were against Scotland. If that was stoke v Southampton We would have been happy with the result, not happy with the first 35 minutes but very happy at our comeback and second half performance Fair point. Second half wasn't too bad. But we make such hard work of everything. We sort of sat on 2-1 after about 75 minutes and that was asking for trouble.
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Post by Cast no shadow on Sept 5, 2017 8:32:45 GMT
Some of the critisism thrown at England is warranted, some of it isn't. That was only the 3rd goal we've conceeded in qualifying. The other two were against Scotland. If that was stoke v Southampton We would have been happy with the result, not happy with the first 35 minutes but very happy at our comeback and second half performance Hahaha we don't come from behind
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Post by salopstick on Sept 5, 2017 8:44:41 GMT
If that was stoke v Southampton We would have been happy with the result, not happy with the first 35 minutes but very happy at our comeback and second half performance Fair point. Second half wasn't too bad. But we make such hard work of everything. We sort of sat on 2-1 after about 75 minutes and that was asking for trouble. Just like stoke then
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Post by pavel on Sept 5, 2017 8:54:00 GMT
Here's a thought jake Livermore has 200% more caps for England than Alan Hudson Unbelievable really, shows the depths we have sunk to.
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Post by Will_75 on Sept 5, 2017 12:55:14 GMT
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Post by jezzascfc on Sept 5, 2017 14:09:15 GMT
England are a mediocre international team with very few players who one could even seriously argue are remotely close to world class. It will remain so whilst 75% or more of the players playing in the Premier League are not qualified to play for England.
Our younger age groups have done well this past year, but how many of them can get a regular game in the Premier League, even less so in the Champions League? Will they get the chance to develop into full internationals of suitable quality, or drift into decent, but unremarkable, journeymen pros. Do the likes of Jack Rodwell fail us, or does the system fail them?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 17:04:41 GMT
I was actually slipping in and out of conciousness at the end.I really like this new tactic of boring the opposition to death,its almost foolproof until, that is, you come up against somebody that is actually half decent.ps Glenn Hoddle is a mind numbing and totally patronising cunt who, should be driven off the white cliffs of Dover in order to, save the viewing England watching public from his garbage and, mind numbingly boring punditry.
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Post by mattador78 on Sept 5, 2017 17:18:52 GMT
England are a mediocre international team with very few players who one could even seriously argue are remotely close to world class. It will remain so whilst 75% or more of the players playing in the Premier League are not qualified to play for England. Our younger age groups have done well this past year, but how many of them can get a regular game in the Premier League, even less so in the Champions League? Will they get the chance to develop into full internationals of suitable quality, or drift into decent, but unremarkable, journeymen pros. Do the likes of Jack Rodwell fail us, or does the system fail them? In my opinion the system they are rewarded too much too soon and then never have to worry about their futures. Fair play to the lad from Man City who has moved to Dortmund to push for their first team as he felt he would be locked out of their first team by imports. One above adverage season sees a English national in the premier league triple his wages and endorsements then plateau at their level which may never reach those heights again. The demand from the press for certain players to be included or excluded is a piss take and now with the increasingly aggressive social media platforms the England team is a joke. Expectations are high in certain countries such as Brazil because they are used to winning expectations are high here because of the stupid money in the game we believe we should be winning.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 5, 2017 17:36:43 GMT
I have nothing to add other than Oxlade-Chamberlain is fucking shit.
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Post by mattador78 on Sept 5, 2017 17:40:32 GMT
I have nothing to add other than Oxlade-Chamberlain is fucking shit but not quite as shit as Jordan sausage foot Henderson or as useless as Joe hologram Hart
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Post by emmbrook1956 on Sept 5, 2017 18:32:59 GMT
My view is that we were poor until Dier scored against the run of play. Thereafter in the last 5 minutes of the first half we were strong. Then second half we were all over them until Rashford scored. Thereafter England sat back.
With regard their goal I thought Hart was very poor. No conviction, did not attack the ball as he wandered out!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 5, 2017 22:35:42 GMT
Our midfield and Henderson in particular look dreadful.
I think Tom Davies should be given the game time in there.
He's shown he can play in the Premier League and he's a much better footballer than Henderson. He does everything Henderson can't.
It's time we chucked some of these younger players in and he fits the bill perfectly.
He's playing Premier League football. He's a player in a position we're woefully short in. And he's actually better than what we have.
The same should go for any of this batch of players that are 22/23 and under.
There's not many that warrant it yet but he's definitely one.
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 6, 2017 9:45:58 GMT
www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/sep/06/world-cup-qualifying-10-talking-points1) Time for Southgate to be ruthless and drop HartBefore the games against Malta and Slovakia Gareth Southgate suggested no other goalkeeper had “staked a strong enough claim” to take over from Joe Hart. It seems a strange statement given the fine form and obvious talent of Jack Butland and Jordan Pickford. It is an oddity of the goalkeeping position that, while mistakes are always highlighted, it generally takes a run of howlers to lose your spot. Sustained middling form, or the mild uncertainty that Hart has emanated for more than a year doesn’t seem to be enough. Southgate missed a chance in the current break to show a little ruthlessness and address this. In the event Hart failed to get a hand on the first shot on target across the two games, Stanislav Lobotka’s goal at Wembley poked past a starfish-pose-by-numbers England keeper. Tournament games come down to fine details, just as a goalie at the top of his powers can disguise many failings. “Showing faith in your man” is one thing. Right now Hart looks like the last outpost of the undroppable celebrity player culture that blighted successive England teams. Barney Ronay
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 6, 2017 10:13:36 GMT
Our midfield and Henderson in particular look dreadful. I think Tom Davies should be given the game time in there. He's shown he can play in the Premier League and he's a much better footballer than Henderson. He does everything Henderson can't. It's time we chucked some of these younger players in and he fits the bill perfectly. He's playing Premier League football. He's a player in a position we're woefully short in. And he's actually better than what we have. The same should go for any of this batch of players that are 22/23 and under. There's not many that warrant it yet but he's definitely one. We definitely need a midfielder to emerge late through the course of this season! I still think John Stones could be a decent bet there, because he sure as hell isn't a centre-half. To make squad: www.skybet.com/football/england-specials/event/20516976Dele Alli 1/10 Eric Dier 1/6 Jordan Henderson 2/7 Jake Livermore Evs Nathaniel Chalobah 9/4 Danny Drinkwater 3/1 James Ward-Prowse 4/1 Ruben Loftus-Cheek 5/1 Harry Winks 11/2 Jack Wilshere 11/2 Tom Davies 6/1 Lewis Cook 8/1 Fabian Delph 10/1 Jonjo Shelvey 10/1 Josh Onomah 12/1 Sam Clucas 14/1 Isaac Hayden 16/1 Will Hughes 16/1 Phil Foden 25/1 Jack Rodwell 33/1
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Post by pez75 on Sept 6, 2017 10:25:24 GMT
There is too much expectancy and micro-analysing of England / International football. We are an above average team who can beat anyone on their day, but if there was a World League we would be mid-table in the top division at best. However the pressure is immense and it has produced a win-by-tactics approach that stifles any player individuality and flair. We play to a system and not to players' strengths meaning they usually under-perform. Hence we played Kane isolated up top but with 2 defensive midfielders - at home to Slovakia FFS!
I agree that we do not have too many truly good players, but that is what we have produced, therfore so-be-it. If we lowered our expectations we might just enjoy it a little more.
Strangley or not - the similarities with our own Stoke City in the Prem are quite obvious too...
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Post by rawli on Sept 6, 2017 12:44:05 GMT
There is too much expectancy and micro-analysing of England / International football. We are an above average team who can beat anyone on their day, but if there was a World League we would be mid-table in the top division at best. However the pressure is immense and it has produced a win-by-tactics approach that stifles any player individuality and flair. We play to a system and not to players' strengths meaning they usually under-perform. Hence we played Kane isolated up top but with 2 defensive midfielders - at home to Slovakia FFS! I agree that we do not have too many truly good players, but that is what we have produced, therfore so-be-it. If we lowered our expectations we might just enjoy it a little more. Strangley or not - the similarities with our own Stoke City in the Prem are quite obvious too... England are equivalent of Newcastle. Bang on about limited success years ago - tick Delusions of grandeur - tick Mistaking big support for being a big club - tick Always likely to fuck up when you least expect it - tick Thought Keegan was the messiah - tick Useless board - tick.
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Post by lordb on Sept 6, 2017 12:58:03 GMT
Disagree. People lose all sense of rational thought when it comes to the England team. Criticise now for what's coming next year being a prime example. And some no doubt think quarter final would be a failure when, bu any historical measure, it's a decent result for England. I'd be delighted with a quarter final. Won't happen. We'll see the same mistakes we always make and for all the same reasons. I don't know how many times it has to happen before somebody gets a grip of it. If we even had a manager who picked on form rather than club and fucking sponsorship deals, it would be a start. The only thing we achieved last night was for Southgate to feel justified in his shitty tactics and player selection. This is why fewer and fewer people care about England. My tipping point was Roy Hodgson taking Jack Wilshere to the Euros. As soon as I saw that, I knew we'd had it. Whats Hodgson's ludicrous selection of Wilshire got to do with Southgate? That's like people who refuse to watch Stoke now because they don't like Pulis.
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Post by jezzascfc on Sept 6, 2017 13:07:26 GMT
Our midfield and Henderson in particular look dreadful. I think Tom Davies should be given the game time in there. He's shown he can play in the Premier League and he's a much better footballer than Henderson. He does everything Henderson can't. It's time we chucked some of these younger players in and he fits the bill perfectly. He's playing Premier League football. He's a player in a position we're woefully short in. And he's actually better than what we have. The same should go for any of this batch of players that are 22/23 and under. There's not many that warrant it yet but he's definitely one. I agree - and it will also be interesting to see how Chalobah and RLC get on this season with regular game time away from Chelsea. Both have promise and could force their way into the team with some decent performances. I see Chalobah already made this last squad. The dearth of decent central midfielders makes Delph's decision to turn down Stoke for Man City's bench in a World Cup year even more bizarre.
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Post by greyman on Sept 6, 2017 13:08:44 GMT
I'd be delighted with a quarter final. Won't happen. We'll see the same mistakes we always make and for all the same reasons. I don't know how many times it has to happen before somebody gets a grip of it. If we even had a manager who picked on form rather than club and fucking sponsorship deals, it would be a start. The only thing we achieved last night was for Southgate to feel justified in his shitty tactics and player selection. This is why fewer and fewer people care about England. My tipping point was Roy Hodgson taking Jack Wilshere to the Euros. As soon as I saw that, I knew we'd had it. Whats Hodgson's ludicrous selection of Wilshire got to do with Southgate? That's like people who refuse to watch Stoke now because they don't like Pulis. I never said it had anything to do with it. It was just the point at which I lost a lot more interest in England. If Wilshere could keep another player out of the squad having proved neither his form nor fitness over a season, what's the point of anybody else trying? Indeed what's the point of Wilshere trying if he knows he's going to be picked anyway? But there are similar issues with what's happening with Joe Hart right now. His automatic inclusion in the team should have ended after Euro 2016. Instead we're looking to go into another tournament with him as the first choice goalie when he should really be struggling to even make the squad. These are all ongoing problems with the England set up. Every player in that squad should be worried they will get dropped or even excluded from the squad. Instead we have a clique of players who start regardless. And we always have had. Does anybody seriously think that will be any different in 2018?
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Post by lordb on Sept 6, 2017 13:25:50 GMT
Whats Hodgson's ludicrous selection of Wilshire got to do with Southgate? That's like people who refuse to watch Stoke now because they don't like Pulis. I never said it had anything to do with it. It was just the point at which I lost a lot more interest in England. If Wilshere could keep another player out of the squad having proved neither his form nor fitness over a season, what's the point of anybody else trying? Indeed what's the point of Wilshere trying if he knows he's going to be picked anyway? But there are similar issues with what's happening with Joe Hart right now. His automatic inclusion in the team should have ended after Euro 2016. Instead we're looking to go into another tournament with him as the first choice goalie when he should really be struggling to even make the squad. These are all ongoing problems with the England set up. Every player in that squad should be worried they will get dropped or even excluded from the squad. Instead we have a clique of players who start regardless. And we always have had. Does anybody seriously think that will be any different in 2018? Goalkeeper & left back are about the only positions with serious competition pretty much everywhere else the side picks itself Harry Kane is going to start regardless (& regardless of who the manager is) not because of some clique but because there is no competition Southgate is mostly doing the bets he can with not very much.
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Post by greyman on Sept 6, 2017 15:19:53 GMT
I never said it had anything to do with it. It was just the point at which I lost a lot more interest in England. If Wilshere could keep another player out of the squad having proved neither his form nor fitness over a season, what's the point of anybody else trying? Indeed what's the point of Wilshere trying if he knows he's going to be picked anyway? But there are similar issues with what's happening with Joe Hart right now. His automatic inclusion in the team should have ended after Euro 2016. Instead we're looking to go into another tournament with him as the first choice goalie when he should really be struggling to even make the squad. These are all ongoing problems with the England set up. Every player in that squad should be worried they will get dropped or even excluded from the squad. Instead we have a clique of players who start regardless. And we always have had. Does anybody seriously think that will be any different in 2018? Goalkeeper & left back are about the only positions with serious competition pretty much everywhere else the side picks itself Harry Kane is going to start regardless (& regardless of who the manager is) not because of some clique but because there is no competition Southgate is mostly doing the bets he can with not very much. Maybe true about Kane but that is not the point. There is quite clearly a clique and there has been for a long time. While he continues to prioritise Joe Hart's feelings, or whatever the hell he thinks he is doing, it's hard to get behind them. Like I said, this is a player who should be fighting for a place in the squad and instead he's literally the first name on the team sheet. I agree we have a limited pool of talent but it's hard to see a case for the inclusion of Oxlade Chamberlain, a midfield pairing of Henderson and Livermore and the automatic inclusion of Gary Cahill. People like Dele Alli should also be worried about their place. And they're not.
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Post by Pugsley on Sept 6, 2017 16:21:07 GMT
Goalkeeper & left back are about the only positions with serious competition pretty much everywhere else the side picks itself Harry Kane is going to start regardless (& regardless of who the manager is) not because of some clique but because there is no competition Southgate is mostly doing the bets he can with not very much. Maybe true about Kane but that is not the point. There is quite clearly a clique and there has been for a long time. While he continues to prioritise Joe Hart's feelings, or whatever the hell he thinks he is doing, it's hard to get behind them. Like I said, this is a player who should be fighting for a place in the squad and instead he's literally the first name on the team sheet. I agree we have a limited pool of talent but it's hard to see a case for the inclusion of Oxlade Chamberlain, a midfield pairing of Henderson and Livermore and the automatic inclusion of Gary Cahill. People like Dele Alli should also be worried about their place. And they're not. But who do you replace them with? It's pretty clear that they are the best players we have to offer. The only alternative is to play youngsters, perhaps sacrificing a major tournament qualification, and hope we can build something. Does the country have stomach for that? I doubt it. It's no coincidence that when England last won something we had 3 world class performers in the side, probably the best player in that position in World football. The only other time we have come close is when we had Gazza. England need to produce that level of player to stand a chance.
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Post by greyman on Sept 6, 2017 20:48:19 GMT
Maybe true about Kane but that is not the point. There is quite clearly a clique and there has been for a long time. While he continues to prioritise Joe Hart's feelings, or whatever the hell he thinks he is doing, it's hard to get behind them. Like I said, this is a player who should be fighting for a place in the squad and instead he's literally the first name on the team sheet. I agree we have a limited pool of talent but it's hard to see a case for the inclusion of Oxlade Chamberlain, a midfield pairing of Henderson and Livermore and the automatic inclusion of Gary Cahill. People like Dele Alli should also be worried about their place. And they're not. But who do you replace them with? It's pretty clear that they are the best players we have to offer. The only alternative is to play youngsters, perhaps sacrificing a major tournament qualification, and hope we can build something. Does the country have stomach for that? I doubt it. It's no coincidence that when England last won something we had 3 world class performers in the side, probably the best player in that position in World football. The only other time we have come close is when we had Gazza. England need to produce that level of player to stand a chance. I agree but then again, if you're starting matches with a goalkeeper who isn't in the top 4 in the country, you're done for from the beginning. I wish they'd lost the other night and Hart had a nightmare then maybe the decision would have been forced on Southgate. As it stands, we're likely to see Hart get the chance to bugger up the tournament for us, as he did at Euro 2016.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Sept 6, 2017 21:03:10 GMT
James Ward-Prowse must be close to call up surely? His set piece delivery is easily the best I've seen on a consistent basis in years.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 6, 2017 21:05:19 GMT
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