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Post by Will_75 on Aug 7, 2017 15:51:51 GMT
it couldn't have been set in stone, because there were two parties involved. the other party (Porto) wouldn't sign. you can try to twist it any way you want, but you simply can't buy from someone who won't sell. Of course you can, we did it with Wolly. And if they don't agree to it you don't do the deal. But that wasn't an option because we left signing a crucial player to the last day. Another master stroke Mr Scholes....... The whole deal has been a fuck up. eh? are you saying we should have walked away?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 7, 2017 15:51:51 GMT
It shouldn't have come to it though should it? That initial deal should have been cast iron. They shouldn't have been allowed to move the goal posts. That's a piss poor initial deal. He's now missed another pre season with us and more time to play alongside Zouma which is crucial. It should never have come to this. I'm trying to understand your point of view. Re-winding to the initial loan discussions, you think we should have pulled out of it because they wouldn't agree a price set in stone in the contract? Rather than going with the load and hoping of striking a deal at the end of it? Who would you have taken instead? I would have bought him outright. Always been a fan! I don't like loan deals for us as a PL club tbh.
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Post by Ryan_Shawjosh on Aug 7, 2017 15:52:59 GMT
I'm trying to understand your point of view. Re-winding to the initial loan discussions, you think we should have pulled out of it because they wouldn't agree a price set in stone in the contract? Rather than going with the load and hoping of striking a deal at the end of it? Who would you have taken instead? I would have bought him outright. Always been a fan! I don't like loan deal for us a PL club tbh. Was that an option at the time? I can't argue with the club wanting to take a look at him on loan first.
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Post by mattador78 on Aug 7, 2017 15:53:35 GMT
Look I've been out with no signal has he signed?
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Aug 7, 2017 15:55:15 GMT
He's a lesser player than Keane. He's a lesser player than Shawcross who many on here seemingly want rid of. Just depends which Shawcross you're comparing at his best yes last season definitely not Bruno had a better season than Shawcross by some distance. You can only compare Bruno to Shawcross as they are now....it would be unfair to compare him to Shawcross 2 or 3 seasons ago....as we didn't know much about Bruno 2 or 3 seasons ago!!!
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Post by GeneralFaye on Aug 7, 2017 15:55:42 GMT
Look I've been out with no signal has he signed? He will, tomorrow hopefully 👍
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 7, 2017 15:57:48 GMT
I would have bought him outright. Always been a fan! I don't like loan deal for us a PL club tbh. Was that an option at the time? I can't argue with the club wanting to take a look at him on loan first. Widely reported as 8m. I can. I don't think we should be loaning players tbh unless there's a cast iron deal to make it permanent if he's good enough. And no, I wouldn't have signed Zouma.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Aug 7, 2017 16:02:12 GMT
Was that an option at the time? I can't argue with the club wanting to take a look at him on loan first. Widely reported as 8m. I can. I don't think we should be loaning players tbh unless there's a cast iron deal to make it permanent if he's good enough. And no, I wouldn't have signed Zouma. The fee may well have been 8m to us. But the option to SELL may have been at Porto's discretion only.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Aug 7, 2017 16:04:02 GMT
Maybe when he signs we get a full explanation of what actually happened with the original "agreement"
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Post by alster on Aug 7, 2017 16:04:19 GMT
Just depends which Shawcross you're comparing at his best yes last season definitely not Bruno had a better season than Shawcross by some distance. You can only compare Bruno to Shawcross as they are now....it would be unfair to compare him to Shawcross 2 or 3 seasons ago....as we didn't know much about Bruno 2 or 3 seasons ago!!! In which case I can't see how BMI is a lesser player than Shawcross. He's stronger, quicker better in the tackle, better with the ball, doesn't get turned as easily.
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Post by mattador78 on Aug 7, 2017 16:04:23 GMT
Look I've been out with no signal has he signed? He will, tomorrow hopefully 👍 So the sum total of bugger all has happened again
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Aug 7, 2017 16:04:55 GMT
Widely reported as 8m. I can. I don't think we should be loaning players tbh unless there's a cast iron deal to make it permanent if he's good enough. And no, I wouldn't have signed Zouma. The fee may well have been 8m to us. But the option to SELL may have been at Porto's discretion only. Maybe, but doesn't really align with what the Club reported when it said that they had allowed the option to lapse
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 7, 2017 16:05:05 GMT
Widely reported as 8m. I can. I don't think we should be loaning players tbh unless there's a cast iron deal to make it permanent if he's good enough. And no, I wouldn't have signed Zouma. The fee may well have been 8m to us. But the option to SELL may have been at Porto's discretion only. Yes and as I've been saying that's a ridiculous deal to agree to.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Aug 7, 2017 16:05:46 GMT
Bought a Tymon with the summer wages saved never mind the reduced price. We could be pretty certain he'd hit the ground running {like last year} so we decided we could take it to the wire. Cute. The other recourse would have been to go to law to enforce the terms of the 'agreement'. Still be filing papers at xmas etc. Plenty of credit due for identifying him in the first place, and getting him so cheap if true. Proven in the Prem, left sided. Great news if true, restores backline balance, and already in tune with Ryan. If we need to do that to sign an 18 year old who looks a good 18 months away from being ready then God help us! The kid who opens the cereal box and throws the free toy away. Celebrate the deal, move on to your next moan. You're not allowing for real world factors in your criticisms. Maybe we didn't want to take a plunge, maybe Bruno appreciated the chance 'to suck it and see', maybe the loan suited both parties best. Loans are a reality. And the volatility management changes at Porto. There's also the reality that this kind of deal is going to be far more complex than snapping up Sunderland players at the 11th hour, it's a relatively new environment for us as a Club, learning curves etc. Self sufficiency etc.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 7, 2017 16:08:56 GMT
If we need to do that to sign an 18 year old who looks a good 18 months away from being ready then God help us! The kid who opens the cereal box and throws the free toy away. Celebrate the deal, move on to your next moan. You're not allowing for real world factors in your criticisms. Maybe we didn't want to take a plunge, maybe Bruno appreciated the chance 'to suck it and see', maybe the loan suited both parties best. Loans are a reality. And the volatility management changes at Porto. There's also the reality that this kind of deal is going to be far more complex than snapping up Sunderland players at the 11th hour, it's a relatively new environment for us as a Club, learning curves etc. Self sufficiency etc. Of course they're going to be complicated, it's why you don't leave it until the last minute. Another feather in the cap.
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Post by Onneravineet on Aug 7, 2017 16:09:15 GMT
Maybe when he signs we get a full explanation of what actually happened with the original "agreement" Realistically I would say that Porto's position re transfer embargo etc has had a major influence on this. Either way, if we get our man then it will be a job well done. Tell Tony he has done well General please.
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Post by mattythestokie on Aug 7, 2017 16:09:22 GMT
It should never have come to it. We had this fee agreed and that should have been set in stone and activated last season. The fact it wasn't shows how poor they at getting good deals as it's gone on way longer than it needed. There is no credit to be had. it couldn't have been set in stone, because there were two parties involved. the other party (Porto) wouldn't sign. you can try to twist it any way you want, but you simply can't buy from someone who won't sell. Porto agreed to sell him when they agreed to the option to buy clause in the deal. All that was left was for us to trigger it.
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Post by lordb on Aug 7, 2017 16:10:28 GMT
Don't know too much on Keane, so no comment there.... But sorry dave, I can't agree that he's a lesser player than Shawcross!!! BUT, that's my opinion, I ain't gonna get drawn into an arguement about it!!! Shawcross is superior to Bruno even when not at his best in my opinion and at his best, there is simply no comparison. It isn't an argument, just a differing of opinions. You have yours, I have mine. Give me Ryan over Bruno every day of the week. They are a good pair,no?
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Post by Cast no shadow on Aug 7, 2017 16:13:20 GMT
Van dijk handed in transfer requests, go get him
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Post by nutterpotter on Aug 7, 2017 16:13:22 GMT
Widely reported as 8m. I can. I don't think we should be loaning players tbh unless there's a cast iron deal to make it permanent if he's good enough. And no, I wouldn't have signed Zouma. The fee may well have been 8m to us. But the option to SELL may have been at Porto's discretion only. If so, Hughes and Scholes shouldn't have been talking about it so openly when there was absolutely no guarantee that we could sign him for the agreed amount. The way they talked about it suggests they thought Porto had no say in any agreed deal after the loan ended.
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Post by theteacher on Aug 7, 2017 16:14:04 GMT
You could say it was a needless gamble, and I'd agree for the sake of 2m euros. But seems churlish to be overly-critical when they appear to have ultimately read the situation perfectly.....for once. I was massively sceptical, but they seem to have pulled it off We may well have had a 100% cast-iron commitment from BMI and we seem to have correctly gauged that Porto would buckle. It's been clear he's not in their plans and this was their last chance to get money for him. He's had a full pre-season and it's not as if he's not aware of our methods. Surely he can pretty much be dropped into the team straight away with little need to acclimatisation It shouldn't have come to it though should it? That initial deal should have been cast iron. They shouldn't have been allowed to move the goal posts. That's a piss poor initial deal. He's now missed another pre season with us and more time to play alongside Zouma which is crucial. It should never have come to this. I agree with all of that but playing devils advocate for a moment. Imagine the situation where we had a cast iron agreement with Porto but BMI then chose to play the market to see what the best possible deal for him wa as? He refuses to sign by the deadline and the deadline passes. The cast iron deal is no longer on the table and not because of either club? I am not saying that this scenario is at all correct but we don't have all of the facts available to us to judge....
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Aug 7, 2017 16:14:20 GMT
Van dijk handed in transfer requests, go get him Sadly he's going to bigger things than us
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Post by Clayton Wood on Aug 7, 2017 16:15:31 GMT
The fee may well have been 8m to us. But the option to SELL may have been at Porto's discretion only. Maybe, but doesn't really align with what the Club reported when it said that they had allowed the option to lapse I've no more idea than anyone else to be honest. But if the option to sell at the agreed price had, as it seems, an end date and Porto didn't elect to sell, but then offered him at a higher price (Porto are in FFP trouble and need the dosh) would that be deemed us letting the option lapse? If you look at it from Porto's view who have a €600k FFP fine to pay they may risk holding back on the sell option hoping for a better offer. We don't want to do that deal but don't want to walk away and put it about that we let it lapse to stay on side with Porto. All if's but's and maybe's - as long as he signs what's it matter now?
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Post by chayzenbacon on Aug 7, 2017 16:16:52 GMT
What's all this "celebrate the deal" bollocks? There is no deal to celebrate yet, not until it's confirmed by the club (or Percy at the Telegraph).
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 7, 2017 16:16:55 GMT
He's a lesser player than Keane. He's a lesser player than Shawcross who many on here seemingly want rid of. Just depends which Shawcross you're comparing at his best yes last season definitely not Bruno had a better season than Shawcross by some distance. I'd prefer both versions to be honest. Bruno was nowhere near as good as you and many others seem to make out. He was as weak defensively as any of the others, made as many mistakes as Ryan did but he wasn't Wooly so he was instantly hugely popular. Don't get me wrong. I like Bruno and think he had a good season. I guess it is more that I don't think Ryan was anywhere near as bad as some of you have tended to make out.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 7, 2017 16:19:08 GMT
It shouldn't have come to it though should it? That initial deal should have been cast iron. They shouldn't have been allowed to move the goal posts. That's a piss poor initial deal. He's now missed another pre season with us and more time to play alongside Zouma which is crucial. It should never have come to this. I agree with all of that but playing devils advocate for a moment. Imagine the situation where we had a cast iron agreement with Porto but BMI then chose to play the market to see what the best possible deal for him wa as? He refuses to sign by the deadline and the deadline passes. The cast iron deal is no longer on the table and not because of either club? I am not saying that this scenario is at all correct but we don't have all of the facts available to us to judge.... I know he bought a house in about May ready for the move! 👍 He wanted to join from the point of that interview where he said so.
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Post by stokie1130 on Aug 7, 2017 16:22:56 GMT
If we indeed to pull this off for 7 million then a lot of people including my self have got to take a good hard look at ourselfs and realise that scoles knows exctaly what has doing and we need in future to keep our gobs shut, 7 million is a master stroke
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Post by StokeTudoGuy on Aug 7, 2017 16:27:13 GMT
You can only compare Bruno to Shawcross as they are now....it would be unfair to compare him to Shawcross 2 or 3 seasons ago....as we didn't know much about Bruno 2 or 3 seasons ago!!! In which case I can't see how BMI is a lesser player than Shawcross. He's stronger, quicker better in the tackle, better with the ball, doesn't get turned as easily. Passes better, brings the ball out of defense better. Bruno is a very good ball playing defender. Ryan is an old fashioned wrecking ball of a defender in comparison.... Nothing wrong with that, his ability to clear the ball alone gives him a place in our defense. Fact is there is a place for both of them... They complement each other. But Bruno is without a doubt a more complete player. Completely different horses for different courses.
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Post by theteacher on Aug 7, 2017 16:28:20 GMT
I agree with all of that but playing devils advocate for a moment. Imagine the situation where we had a cast iron agreement with Porto but BMI then chose to play the market to see what the best possible deal for him wa as? He refuses to sign by the deadline and the deadline passes. The cast iron deal is no longer on the table and not because of either club? I am not saying that this scenario is at all correct but we don't have all of the facts available to us to judge.... I know he bought a house in about May ready for the move! 👍 He wanted to join from the point of that interview where he said so. That may be 100% correct but again let's play the scenario.... He come to us on loan with the intention of signing a full contract on let's say £40k/week. He purchases a house in readiness for the move but his agent says I can get you £85k/week and the player believes that this may be possible. This delays the deal and the player sees the house as an investment he can sell??? This delays the deal and the deadline passes. The £85k/week doesn't become available and he is happy to sign? This is just a scenario but without all of the facts no one will be 100% sure. You maywell be correct with this being badly managed but we honestly don't know do we.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 7, 2017 16:31:54 GMT
I know he bought a house in about May ready for the move! 👍 He wanted to join from the point of that interview where he said so. That may be 100% correct but again let's play the scenario.... He come to us on loan with the intention of signing a full contract on let's say £40k/week. He purchases a house in readiness for the move but his agent says I can get you £85k/week and the player believes that this may be possible. This delays the deal and the player sees the house as an investment he can sell??? This delays the deal and the deadline passes. The £85k/week doesn't become available and he is happy to sign? This is just a scenario but without all of the facts no one will be 100% sure. You maywell be correct with this being badly managed but we honestly don't know do we. I think we do. It just shouldn't have come to this.
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