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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 22:26:49 GMT
There is no doubting that Arnie is a talented player. BUT
I have never understood how or why, when it comes to tapping the ball into the net, his talents seem to desert him. Yes ok, I know he has scored good goals, but bloody hell, he has missed some (a lot of) sitters.
Maybe the problem was that "tapping it in" wasn't on his agenda - he wanted to burst the net.
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Post by ashleyscfc on Jul 10, 2017 22:27:59 GMT
Having lost 2 of our most consistent players in Nzonzi and Arnie for midfield and attack and not replacing them adequately has been and could be nothing short of suicide.
The club have underinvested and tried the dogs home tactics and we've got a team full of mongrels. Who's surprised?
You can't penny pinch through the spine of the team and we have for years. Striker, Central attacking mid, Centre Mid, Central defender all need £15m+ investment now.
If we'd just done that instead of spunking millions up the wall on dogs home players we'd be better off. Then saved money on wingers/full backs etc.
Our transfer policy/scouting always has been and continues to be fucking shit and clueless. The sooner we all realise that the bettsr
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Post by heworksardtho on Jul 10, 2017 22:29:26 GMT
3 words, "One Greedy Bastard"... I can see where your coming from but at the end of the day he's like any of us in a job there's no loyalty and if he can earn more money somewhere else then good luck to him , but I have a gut feeling Andy Carrol will be part of the deal
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Post by Davef on Jul 10, 2017 22:30:12 GMT
Having lost 2 of our most consistent players in Nzonzi and Arnie for midfield and attack and not replacing them adequately has been and could be nothing short of suicide. The club have underinvested and tried the dogs home tactics and we've got a team full of mongrels. Who's surprised? You can't penny pinch through the spine of the team and we have for years. Striker, Central attacking mid, Centre Mid, Central defender all need £15m+ investment now. If we'd just done that instead of spunking millions up the wall on dogs home players we'd be better off. Then saved money on wingers/full backs etc. Our transfer policy/scouting always has been and continues to be fucking shit and clueless. The sooner we all realise that the bettsr We haven't lost Arnie yet and you have no idea who will replace him if he is sold.
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Post by warringtonstokie on Jul 10, 2017 22:33:41 GMT
I can't understand why the fuck any Stoke fan would be happy to see the back of Arnautovic especially to a rival? He's the best player we've had since we came up imo. The blokes class and even if he does have an off day he's one of only 2 or 3 in the squad who can produce magic from nowhere. We will really struggle to replace him for the £25m quoted in today's market. The reason why some of us want to see him go is because he's asked to go! If it was the Club trying to sell him to raise cash I'd be going mental but he's asked to go, so to avoid disruption to the squad we need to move him on as quickly as possible for the highest possible fee. I'd never want to see him go though. If he makes a sideways move I'll change my opinion on him but if he wants to change clubs and go somewhere with actual ambition then I can't blame him.
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Post by broadwayroundabout on Jul 10, 2017 22:33:43 GMT
I will miss his flair, the talent he showed on occasion (but not always), his character, but if that's what he has requested all I'd say is ....bubuy now.
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Post by ashleyscfc on Jul 10, 2017 22:34:05 GMT
3 words, "One Greedy Bastard"... I can see where your coming from but at the end of the day he's like any of us in a job there's no loyalty and if he can earn more money somewhere else then good luck to him , but I have a gut feeling Andy Carrol will be part of the deal Fine, but if you want the adulation, the thanking the fans, the agreement of an extended deal saying it's his family club. Then running off to London for an extra 20k a week and a signing on bung nails your colours to the mast. If it was to better his footballing career fine. This isn't like Nzonzi or even Bego. He's going to a club that in recent history has finished below us. It's all about the £££. Therefore he should be treated as such. The pretence of it's about "ambition" makes him look like a twat. Then the video of him in Switzerland looking like he's trying to ostracise himself from the group just look childish. He owes us more than that. If he wants to go for money fine, but there's no need to be a twat about it. No quarter given here. No heroes return I'm afraid.
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Post by skelman on Jul 10, 2017 22:35:38 GMT
3 words, "One Greedy Bastard"... Reported back for pre-season last Wednesday and then hands in a transfer request today. Remind him he's on fucking good money and is contracted to us for 3 more years Then SEND HIM HOME FROM SWITZERLAND while we prepare for Everton, Arsenal, WBA, Man U, Newcastle and Chelsea One Ungrateful Greedy Bastard
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Post by Davef on Jul 10, 2017 22:37:18 GMT
3 words, "One Greedy Bastard"... Reported back for pre-season last Wednesday and then hands in a transfer request today. Remind him he's on fucking good money and is contracted to us for 3 more years Then SEND HIM HOME FROM SWITZERLAND while we prepare foe Everton, Arsenal, WBA, Man U, Newcastle and Chelsea One Ungrateful Greedy Bastard He handed in the transfer request last week, presumably before the players reported back.
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Post by superheroantonius on Jul 10, 2017 22:47:08 GMT
There is no doubting that Arnie is a talented player. BUT I have never understood how or why, when it comes to tapping the ball into the net, his talents seem to desert him. Yes ok, I know he has scored good goals, but bloody hell, he has missed some (a lot of) sitters. Maybe the problem was that "tapping it in" wasn't on his agenda - he wanted to burst the net. Good player But how does he manage to be 6 foot 4 built like a brick outhouse and no threat whatsoever in the air. Probably bigger than thorne sheron and beattie, even alan shearer for that matter, but zero interest in heading the ball. Definitely a one off in good ways and bad.
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Post by djduncanjames on Jul 10, 2017 22:51:16 GMT
So will Hughes go through all of preseason with Arnie in the team? I mean really we should be looking at the new formations without him in the team.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 22:51:23 GMT
There is no doubting that Arnie is a talented player. BUT I have never understood how or why, when it comes to tapping the ball into the net, his talents seem to desert him. Yes ok, I know he has scored good goals, but bloody hell, he has missed some (a lot of) sitters. Maybe the problem was that "tapping it in" wasn't on his agenda - he wanted to burst the net. Good player But how does he manage to be 6 foot 4 built like a brick outhouse and no threat whatsoever in the air. Probably bigger than thorne sheron and beattie, even alan shearer for that matter, but zero interest in heading the ball. Definitely a one off in good ways and bad. Yes, it's really strange. We can't compare him as a player now, to what he was when he arrived. He has "come on" tremendously. I think he still does have the "show pony" about him. Maybe another year or two and he will be slotting in those easy goals, and not just the hard ones.
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Post by StokeTudoGuy on Jul 10, 2017 22:55:20 GMT
If Arni goes, rather than directly replace him I would suggest to get a right winger who operates the full length of the pitch and play Sobhi on the left. I like sobhi. He can be a real player for us But the problem is that he is right footed and only mark hughes would play him on the left Why not play sobhi on the right, where he always played for Al ahly And then get in a left footed left winger We got to a Cup final with left footed ethers on the left and right footed pennant on the right. And in hindsight it surely wasn't that radical an idea? I dont necessarily disagree with what you say. However I do think there is sometimes merit to playing with your stronger foot on the inside. An examply would be Joe Cole who was very effective in this manner IMO. Especially if there is a club desire to move towards a LB who gets more forward and provides better supply balls. Having a right footed LW attacking player who naturally cuts in allows this FB to overlap very effectively, while leaving Sobhi at a good chance to shoot with his strong foot even from short through balls. Sobhi looks like more of a run at the opposition attacker to me too, rather than a pinpoint crossing type. Not that im saying he cant pass. I just think he looks comfortable going at people.
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Post by hammered on Jul 10, 2017 22:55:49 GMT
I've just looked on West Hams forum and according to thier ITK bloke named 'Jinxed'. He's said Arnie will leave for 18-20 million. He can't possibly know what we would be prepared to accept. We had the same with Payet - sold under value with the player dictating the terms. If this turns out to be true, the player/agent have been busy for a while IMO. Was that injury tonight real Jinxed hasn't confirmed it as DONE but seems to know more than most and is well ahead of what's reported in the media. As I mentioned on the other MA thread he's usually 75% right - and when he's been wrong it's usually because of a change of target or final terms. No one has any idea who he/she is but nearly always bang on the money. If he's right about Hernandez being 80% done as well then I'd say we're showing a bit of ambition which might have got MA's attention but more than likely it's the $$$ Sulli's raised getting shot of Fegouli, Valancia, Nordveit, Tore, (Oxford's wages) etc.. Sullivan right now is probably upping his £15m to £8m + Snodgrass.......
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Post by bhp on Jul 10, 2017 22:57:23 GMT
If he goes to West Ham he's lied to us all, 'lack of ambition' apparently, my arse.
Moving to a club who finished 1 point above us? Seriously? It's got sod all do with ambition if he goes to the spammers, just a pay rise.
If he moves to a club in Europe, Europa or Champions League then fair enough to the bloke he's gone on to better things, no one can moan if someone betters themselves. If he turns up at the 365 in the claret & blue of the Irons he may get a mixed response.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 23:09:21 GMT
If it's true Weat Ham, AC Milan and PSG are interested then I think we can be pretty safe in the knowledge he won't be playing in London!
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Post by mattythestokie on Jul 10, 2017 23:11:04 GMT
He can't possibly know what we would be prepared to accept. We had the same with Payet - sold under value with the player dictating the terms. If this turns out to be true, the player/agent have been busy for a while IMO. Was that injury tonight real Jinxed hasn't confirmed it as DONE but seems to know more than most and is well ahead of what's reported in the media. As I mentioned on the other MA thread he's usually 75% right - and when he's been wrong it's usually because of a change of target or final terms. No one has any idea who he/she is but nearly always bang on the money. If he's right about Hernandez being 80% done as well then I'd say we're showing a bit of ambition which might have got MA's attention but more than likely it's the $$$ Sulli's raised getting shot of Fegouli, Valancia, Nordveit, Tore, (Oxford's wages) etc.. Sullivan right now is probably upping his £15m to £8m + Snodgrass....... What's the general consensus with the West Ham fans about possibly signing Arnie?
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Post by hammered on Jul 10, 2017 23:21:27 GMT
If it's true Weat Ham, AC Milan and PSG are interested then I think we can be pretty safe in the knowledge he won't be playing in London! You'd think so but stranger things have happened. bhp MA leaving Stoke for WHU is purely $$$$. We still boo Ince, Lampard & Defoe but never Tevez, Carrick, Ferdinand etc..strange really. Payet will probably get stick if he ever plays against us - but a good booing doesn't change their bank balance.
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Post by boothenesque on Jul 10, 2017 23:22:49 GMT
When we were languishing in Div 1, anyone with ambitions for us to be an established PL side would have been laughed at. Even when back in the Championship the PL was way way out of reach light years away. We're now established in the PL, not really struggled once, ok last season we could have done better and under performed a bit but we still survived comfortably. When we were in the Championship an ambition to be in the PL year after year, watching to top clubs week in week out, attracting good players would have been considers an unrealistic fantasy. Now we have achieved that people are whining and moaning that we have no ambition. Blackburn Rovers had ambitions. I don't get Stoke fans at times, they don't half fucking moan.
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Post by bhp on Jul 10, 2017 23:32:41 GMT
If Arni goes, rather than directly replace him I would suggest to get a right winger who operates the full length of the pitch and play Sobhi on the left. I like sobhi. He can be a real player for us But the problem is that he is right footed and only mark hughes would play him on the left Why not play sobhi on the right, where he always played for Al ahly And then get in a left footed left winger We got to a Cup final with left footed ethers on the left and right footed pennant on the right. And in hindsight it surely wasn't that radical an idea? Funny old debate this, inverted wingers. Neither a right or wrong way about it, just a clash of ideologies. In England from when we were young both watching and playing we were used to fast wingers driving down the line taking on their full back and whipping in a cross for the strikers to attack whether that be Sunday league or the professional game. A time when full backs barely got beyond the half way line so the space was not there for them to occupy. In Europe it seems the majority of nations tend to play inverted wingers, looking for that through ball into the channel for the striker. Looking from the switch to the opposite flank. Looking to get a shot off at goal. Creating space for your attacking full back and more. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. Under Pulis we had traditional English wingers, who occasionally switched sides, and physical centre forwards, perfect mix for 'normal' wingers, beat their man and get a cross in. It worked for us. Now, with the foreign wingers that we have who prefer to link with the play, take a shot, switch play etc and most likely Berahino leading the line next season who I hope will be making runs in behind. We've seen it work for us before, the Shaqiri and Arnautovic partnership shows the benefits of inverted wingers, just ask Manchester City in 2015, Arnautovic could have had a hat trick and Shaqiri could have had a hat trick of assists. It's all about people's preferences, does Berahino predominantly like to feed from crosses or from through balls? I'd personally say through balls for him but I don't know what he prefers. It's weird, in my experience of playing football albeit at a reasonable Sunday league standard I played as a right sided centre back in a back 4, I played there 99% of the time (apart from the occasionally classy performance in midfield, still got it if you need me Hughesy, I'd bring the average age of the squad down too😉) I had bad and good games, some world class but scouts said they needed to give others a chance, then I had a patch where I started to play poor. I was getting my body position wrong, tackling with the wrong foot etc. One game I got partnered with someone who usually plays right back, they wanted to play that side and had a poor left peg so being a two footed maestro I gave it a go playing the left side, I never went back to the right side. It gives you a different insight and view of the game and definitely helped me and I preferred it much more. Like I said it's weird how a small tweak can change something. A bit off topic I apologise but it's somewhat relevant, I guess.. ahaha
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Post by Theninjabadger on Jul 10, 2017 23:51:55 GMT
Realistically if we want decent money for him we have to sell him to premier league team. AC aren't going to spend £30+million on him. PSG won't even be interested in him. I can't see West Ham spending more than £20m on him. If Everton or Liverpool aren't interested I can see him being disappointed come September
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 0:06:15 GMT
If it's true Weat Ham, AC Milan and PSG are interested then I think we can be pretty safe in the knowledge he won't be playing in London! You'd think so but stranger things have happened. bhp MA leaving Stoke for WHU is purely $$$$. We still boo Ince, Lampard & Defoe but never Tevez, Carrick, Ferdinand etc..strange really. Payet will probably get stick if he ever plays against us - but a good booing doesn't change their bank balance. I'd honestly be very surprised as we've only sold 2 players who were regular starters since promotion 9 years ago and they were to Champions League clubs when they had 1 year left on their contracts. We seem to have a strange reputation as being an easy club to poach players from in the media (and even amongst our own fans), but the facts don't really show that to be the case at all. You never know I suppose, Palace are insane enough to give Zaha £150k a week, so maybe West Ham are willing to offer significantly more than the £100k a week Arnie is currently on plus a fee significantly over 20 million. Seems like lunacy to me though.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 11, 2017 0:36:08 GMT
He can't possibly know what we would be prepared to accept. We had the same with Payet - sold under value with the player dictating the terms. If this turns out to be true, the player/agent have been busy for a while IMO. Was that injury tonight real Jinxed hasn't confirmed it as DONE but seems to know more than most and is well ahead of what's reported in the media. As I mentioned on the other MA thread he's usually 75% right - and when he's been wrong it's usually because of a change of target or final terms. No one has any idea who he/she is but nearly always bang on the money. If he's right about Hernandez being 80% done as well then I'd say we're showing a bit of ambition which might have got MA's attention but more than likely it's the $$$ Sulli's raised getting shot of Fegouli, Valancia, Nordveit, Tore, (Oxford's wages) etc.. Sullivan right now is probably upping his £15m to £8m + Snodgrass....... The melt down on here if we accepted that
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Post by hanibal7 on Jul 11, 2017 1:35:19 GMT
Having lost 2 of our most consistent players in Nzonzi and Arnie for midfield and attack and not replacing them adequately has been and could be nothing short of suicide. The club have underinvested and tried the dogs home tactics and we've got a team full of mongrels. Who's surprised? You can't penny pinch through the spine of the team and we have for years. Striker, Central attacking mid, Centre Mid, Central defender all need £15m+ investment now. If we'd just done that instead of spunking millions up the wall on dogs home players we'd be better off. Then saved money on wingers/full backs etc. Our transfer policy/scouting always has been and continues to be fucking shit and clueless. The sooner we all realise that the bettsr Absolute bollocks
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Post by tijuanabrass on Jul 11, 2017 2:38:41 GMT
Well, he has been as close to a talisman as we've had this last year and while it upsets me to think of him donning that shirt in a few weeks time I think there has been some over-reaction on this thread. It's like Fonzi all over. We knew he was itching for a transfer last season, like most people and especially modern footballers, he is greedy. The club anticipated this last year and brought Sobhi in. We now have a player of equal ability (albeit lesser experience) bedded in and ready to step up to the breach. I'm sure that nobody on the transfer team has been caught with their pants down over this. We will have irons in the fire. As long as they get a ludicrous 2017 transfer fee for Arnie we can just accept it as a symptom of the game. Replace him with better. Wind him up when he comes to visit.Laugh when he's left on the bench because Sullivan and Gold have splashed out on someone better by January.
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Post by houstonsteve on Jul 11, 2017 2:39:01 GMT
Well this is all a bit disappointing. Hard to know where to start on this inevitably VERY long rant and rave from me.
Abbreviated version........................
I love(d) Arnie. He is worth the entrance money alone for me in the current team (and don't give me the show pony, 3 games in 10 clap trap - we would have been relegated without him in the last 2 seasons). But its clear Stokes business model has changed and Arnie simply has to go. But if we don't get more than 20 million (I know, I said 35 million elsewhere) to spend (and use) immediately on other areas of the team serious questions need to be asked.
Long read version................................................
The new "Stoke City New Normal".
So......At the end of the day its a business. But more and more its becoming clear to me that it seems that Scholsey bought Moneyball (or was told to) for his kindle to read on the flight over to last seasons (piss poor) pre season tour and bought into the concepts hook, line and sinker (and obviously looked at Liverpool a little). The one thing EVERYONE tends to miss about the moneyball schtick is the need for a manager/executive (or management team) with a single minded vision, purpose and direction that everyone buys into (and still paying serious money for key players by the way). Its no surprise that Billy Beane is now EVP (executive level) of the Oakland As after he quit day to day general managing of the team. I.e he was a manager who could make anything work (most likely in any business), and he evolved his approach through time, but he always had a vision - and by the way, since Billy went to EVP level the Oakland As have been shit and are currently close to the worst team in baseball (so, as a strategic leader he is lacking...but I digress). I see no evidence that anyone involved in the day to day running of Stoke City football club has that vision or capacity. Thats not to say there not are people of that type involved in the club, but they do not care about the club like the fans do - and thats no disrespect to them as that is their prerogative (and they also spend most of their time running a business that is significantly more valuable than the football club). I suspect having watched 2 managers piss serious money up the wall under Uncle Petes benevolence we are seeing the influence of the kids coming into play - i.e. the "moneyball" plan - and messaging is - keep us in the premier league if you can on a shoestring, or generate your own funds, reduce the wage bill and develop talent - and that probably explains why Hughes is still there i.e what he achieved in season 1 shows he can do it on a shoestring. So yes, there is most probably a wage cap (per player and for the squad), players are assets that are for sale at the right price.... and .... get used to it. I don't blame the decision makers for that but the obfuscation associated with it is disingenuous. However, I do think the club believe that the "new normal" has been messaged to the fans already.
The Arnie perspective.
I seriously cannot believe how badly he is being advised. Seriously son. You would have been a hero if any club had maneuvered the move but its clear your "Team" is managing this. I don't give a shit if we are better than West ham or vice versa. Again its a business. I also don't blame him for looking elsewhere, and I think its a fair argument that is being used that almost nothing we have done for 18 months says ambition (notwithstanding the new normal outline above). But Arnie is 29 and lets look at what he has as options. Stay at Stoke with only domestic cups to fight for (and at least 12 months to realize European football), move to a CL club on more money, or move to a club roughly equivalent to Stoke and get at least 10k more a week, a signing on fee in the millions and a nice earner for his brother.. So this is the West Ham option for the majority of us: Move to a new company, do exactly the same job, with the same expectations and same performance indicators and get a 20% pay rise, a signing on bonus of 4 times your annual salary, your brother gets set up for life as well (don't under estimate that element) and you'll live in a dynamic capital city (where your income guarantees you a fantastic place to live). Oh, and for these guys the numbers are in the millions. Sorry its a no brainer. Spare me the faux outrage. All of us would do it. The only thing that is BS is the timing and the reason provided is just convenient, and for that I'm done with Arnies representatives, and by association Arnie.
So, what now?
In all forms of business there are people in your team that you really don't want to lose, but you do. They move on to better things either within your company or elsewhere (and in most cases as a good manager that is what you should be hoping for, coaching them for and encouraging). The important thing is to replace them with equally talented people, or, people who will get there quickly (i.e. a succession plan). I think we actually have that in this case in Sobhi. Judgment or luck by us? So I am not concerned on that front. Sobhi is a rare talent who needs the stage.....
The only issue I have is the way Arnies team have played their hand and there is no route back for them as far as I am concerned. He's gone (yes I know its not a done deal) and all of us have to move on.
However, in my view, the spotlight should not be on Arnie (he and his brother are just going to be financially secure for his/their life at a shit club (WH), or be at a CL club and financially secure, or be at a very aggressive premier league club on the up, and still financially secure.......) its on the decision makers, management and transfer team at Stoke now.
If we don't maximize the profit (a fee of less than 20 million is a joke for our top player who is under our contractual control) and reinvest the profit this transfer window in areas of the team that really need strengthening (central defence and central midfield) I will be very very concerned.
Ciao Arnie. At times your skill, power and class are sublime and close to world class.... but..... don't expect me to be clapping you on your return as your "teams" approach to this has diminished my respect for you.
This could have been done in a much better way. Enjoy the pervasive mediocrity at WH.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 11, 2017 3:06:06 GMT
Main thing it teaches us again is...contracts mean fuck all.
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Post by george2again on Jul 11, 2017 3:37:46 GMT
A point that I think no one has picked up on is when Arnie leaves we are left with one wide player with experience. This wide player doesn't turn up much and is injured half the season. When we contemplate Arnie leaving and Sobi can replace, who replaces Shaq when hes hamstring tweaks every other game? On top of that most on here feels Shaqs best position is behind the front man. Some real investment needed at Stoke and a serious look at ourselves.
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moz
Academy Starlet
Posts: 169
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Post by moz on Jul 11, 2017 4:39:04 GMT
If he really wants to leave then the management should set with him and ask him if it's for better salary then we should negotiate increasing his salary by a reasonable amount. If not and he insists that he leaves then ask him and WH for a delay till January. So, that we can evaluate our options or at least gain some time to integrate Sobhi while we still have Arni.
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Post by kastro on Jul 11, 2017 4:45:35 GMT
Sobhi won't be at Stoke in a few years if his development continues as it has been. When he adds end product to his game - which will come with maturity - he'll command a very large transfer fee.
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