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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 27, 2019 17:12:50 GMT
Fankle. Are you now a naturalised Scot, Partick? In September this year I'll have been living in Scotland for 30 years. It's my home. But I'm English through and through. Whatever that means! Partick I would value your opinion ( just an immediate ' off the of your head') on; How do you think the border would play out if Scotland did achieve independence? As I understand it they would not immediately and automatically be part of the EU.
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Post by partickpotter on May 27, 2019 17:21:54 GMT
In September this year I'll have been living in Scotland for 30 years. It's my home. But I'm English through and through. Whatever that means! Partick I would value your opinion ( just an immediate ' off the of your head') on; How do you think the border would play out if Scotland did achieve independence? As I understand it they would not immediately and automatically be part of the EU. Who knows? It's one of the great unanswered (actually unasked!) questions the Indy folks choose to ignore. File under Project Fear - the home of all difficult questions. It's potentially a huge issue for Scotland. The rest of the U.K. (meaning mainly England) accounts for 60% of Scottish exports. That's a big number to put at risk. And we now know it will be put at risk thanks to the EU policy on borders as we have seen with Ireland.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 27, 2019 17:54:54 GMT
Partick I would value your opinion ( just an immediate ' off the of your head') on; How do you think the border would play out if Scotland did achieve independence? As I understand it they would not immediately and automatically be part of the EU. Who knows? It's one of the great unanswered (actually unasked!) questions the Indy folks choose to ignore. File under Project Fear - the home of all difficult questions. It's potentially a huge issue for Scotland. The rest of the U.K. (meaning mainly England) accounts for 60% of Scottish exports. That's a big number to put at risk. And we now know it will be put at risk thanks to the EU policy on borders as we have seen with Ireland. In some ways then it mirrors the Irish question. I suppose that there are two ( separate) issue s) with borders..... 1 make them as seemless as possible to aid trade 2 To control/ monitor what's going on in terms of immigration/ emigration. To make changes to custom snf practice because a population wants self determination is challenging. I think.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 27, 2019 18:52:03 GMT
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Post by harryburrows on May 27, 2019 19:04:20 GMT
Who knows? It's one of the great unanswered (actually unasked!) questions the Indy folks choose to ignore. File under Project Fear - the home of all difficult questions. It's potentially a huge issue for Scotland. The rest of the U.K. (meaning mainly England) accounts for 60% of Scottish exports. That's a big number to put at risk. And we now know it will be put at risk thanks to the EU policy on borders as we have seen with Ireland. In some ways then it mirrors the Irish question. I suppose that there are two ( separate) issue s) with borders..... 1 make them as seemless as possible to aid trade 2 To control/ monitor what's going on in terms of immigration/ emigration. To make changes to custom snf practice because a population wants self determination is challenging. I think. I said this earlier john , if we are to stop freedom of movement some form of border control is inevitable
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Post by harryburrows on May 27, 2019 19:08:19 GMT
The point was made last night on the BBC that the SNP had asked voters to lend them their vote to stop Brexit therefore making them unable to use the results as a reason for another independence referendum.
Do you not think that the Union is doomed Partick? The SNP refer to Westminster as a body that has no care for Scotland. Like Brexit the genie is out of the bottle.
No - I don't think so. The SNP have done nothing to address the problems that caused their defeat last time - specifically on the question of currency and the economy generally. In addition the white paper they produced for the 2014 referendum hasn't, to put it mildly, stood the test of time very well. Plus add to that Salmondgate and the travails of a third term government being unable to blame previous administrations for poor performance in areas like education and health (both of which are devolved powers). On the face of it, their argument seems much weaker now than previously. So their strategy seems to me to be to ratchet up the Westminster grievance agenda as high as it can go. The problem is, that hasn't shown any signs of working. The pro-Indy vote has stuck at 45%. Which, as mentioned above, is what they got in these elections. They now seem to be hoping BoJo that if becomes the new PM, that will be enough to boost the Indy vote. I think that is more hope than expectation though despite their bluster. I suppose the diminishing returns from North Sea oil hasn't helped the Indi cause either .
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 27, 2019 19:11:37 GMT
In some ways then it mirrors the Irish question. I suppose that there are two ( separate) issue s) with borders..... 1 make them as seemless as possible to aid trade 2 To control/ monitor what's going on in terms of immigration/ emigration. To make changes to custom snf practice because a population wants self determination is challenging. I think. I said this earlier john , if we are to stop freedom of movement some form of border control is inevitable You did Harry In the short term , I'd be prepared to put up with an insecure border to get Brexit delivered.... then look at ways to " check, monitor, enforce" immigration on the Northern Irish mainland later. In practice it would not be any " worse/ insecure" than now and we could take advantage of the opportunities of Brexit. Or am I missing something?
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Post by salopstick on May 27, 2019 19:13:45 GMT
They have lost Scotland Been annihilated in wales Now doing their best to alienate working class england
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Post by auntiegeorge on May 27, 2019 19:25:29 GMT
Working class England will therefore flock to the Brexit Party and Labour will look back on this period as a monumental lost opportunity due to hopeless leadership. Even the runner beans in Jezza's allotment have wilted beyond hope.
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Post by harryburrows on May 27, 2019 19:28:59 GMT
I said this earlier john , if we are to stop freedom of movement some form of border control is inevitable You did Harry In the short term , I'd be prepared to put up with an insecure border to get Brexit delivered.... then look at ways to " check, monitor, enforce" immigration on the Northern Irish mainland later. In practice it would not be any " worse/ insecure" than now and we could take advantage of the opportunities of Brexit. Or am I missing something? I'll be interested to see what the EU do about the Irish border , they have already said they will have to secure their external borders with some control. This despite their insistence on the backstop in the WA to prevent the U.K. Doing so , euro fudge at its finest
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Post by salopstick on May 27, 2019 19:30:03 GMT
Working class England will therefore flock to the Brexit Party and Labour will look back on this period as a monumental lost opportunity due to hopeless leadership. If the tories just secure Brexit they are back in business. Labour won’t be trusted to make it work
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Post by salopstick on May 27, 2019 19:31:25 GMT
You did Harry In the short term , I'd be prepared to put up with an insecure border to get Brexit delivered.... then look at ways to " check, monitor, enforce" immigration on the Northern Irish mainland later. In practice it would not be any " worse/ insecure" than now and we could take advantage of the opportunities of Brexit. Or am I missing something? I'll be interested to see what the EU do about the Irish border , they have already said they will have to secure their external borders with some control. This despite their insistence on the backstop in the WA to prevent the U.K. Doing so , euro fudge at its finest The Eu Problem. we should be happy to let it carry on That’s why we need a free trade agreement. There won’t be hundreds of thousands of migrants coming in via Dublin
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Post by thevoid on May 27, 2019 19:33:21 GMT
They have lost Scotland Been annihilated in wales Now doing their best to alienate working class england Labour are now the party of Owen Jones, hipsters, Shoreditch, The Guardian and Glastonbury. They are not the party of the working man anymore. When they commit to Remain, they will haemmorage voters.
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Post by felonious on May 27, 2019 19:35:57 GMT
How long will Corbyn last? As long as Momentum and Unite see fit.
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Post by felonious on May 27, 2019 19:39:56 GMT
In some ways then it mirrors the Irish question. I suppose that there are two ( separate) issue s) with borders..... 1 make them as seemless as possible to aid trade 2 To control/ monitor what's going on in terms of immigration/ emigration. To make changes to custom snf practice because a population wants self determination is challenging. I think. I said this earlier john , if we are to stop freedom of movement some form of border control is inevitable Always thought it would be nice to see Hadrian's wall reinstated.
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Post by harryburrows on May 27, 2019 19:40:56 GMT
Working class England will therefore flock to the Brexit Party and Labour will look back on this period as a monumental lost opportunity due to hopeless leadership. If the tories just secure Brexit they are back in business. Labour won’t be trusted to make it work I think the Tories have some other issues as well mate , they have done a lot of damage in middle England with the cuts to public services, bus services , council tax utility bills , property prices, business rates , health service spending, social care funding , schools , libraries, post offices public sector workers haven't seen a pay increase for 10 years , the list is endless and I believe is affecting everyone . This needs to change before another election . We saw last time out how effective labours magic money tree was . Tax cuts aren't going to help
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Post by felonious on May 27, 2019 19:42:19 GMT
They have lost Scotland Been annihilated in wales Now doing their best to alienate working class england Between the Conservative party and Labour it has that whiff of the last days of Rome.
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Post by felonious on May 27, 2019 19:44:01 GMT
You did Harry In the short term , I'd be prepared to put up with an insecure border to get Brexit delivered.... then look at ways to " check, monitor, enforce" immigration on the Northern Irish mainland later. In practice it would not be any " worse/ insecure" than now and we could take advantage of the opportunities of Brexit. Or am I missing something? I'll be interested to see what the EU do about the Irish border , they have already said they will have to secure their external borders with some control. This despite their insistence on the backstop in the WA to prevent the U.K. Doing so , euro fudge at its finest Labour and the Conservatives can't be trusted but the EU are on whole different level.
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Post by salopstick on May 27, 2019 19:45:58 GMT
If the tories just secure Brexit they are back in business. Labour won’t be trusted to make it work I think the Tories have some other issues as well mate , they have done a lot of damage in middle England with the cuts to public services, bus services , council tax utility bills , property prices, business rates , health service spending, social care funding , schools , libraries, post offices public sector workers haven't seen a pay increase for 10 years , the list is endless and I believe is affecting everyone . This needs to change before another election . We saw last time out how effective labours magic money tree was . Tax cuts aren't going to help At this fragile time they will trust labour less I can’t think of a decent labour politician to put on the national campaign trail Corbyn? Abbott? Thornberry? McDonnell? Slim man? Can you imagine the reception this lot will have up north At least the tories can deliver Brexit with a new leader and say we tried, it took us a while due to Parliament and it’s now time to crack on with the other issues.
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Post by harryburrows on May 27, 2019 19:48:20 GMT
I think the Tories have some other issues as well mate , they have done a lot of damage in middle England with the cuts to public services, bus services , council tax utility bills , property prices, business rates , health service spending, social care funding , schools , libraries, post offices public sector workers haven't seen a pay increase for 10 years , the list is endless and I believe is affecting everyone . This needs to change before another election . We saw last time out how effective labours magic money tree was . Tax cuts aren't going to help At this fragile time they will trust labour less They will have other options now
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Post by felonious on May 27, 2019 19:49:24 GMT
If the tories just secure Brexit they are back in business. Labour won’t be trusted to make it work I think the Tories have some other issues as well mate , they have done a lot of damage in middle England with the cuts to public services, bus services , council tax utility bills , property prices, business rates , health service spending, social care funding , schools , libraries, post offices public sector workers haven't seen a pay increase for 10 years , the list is endless and I believe is affecting everyone . This needs to change before another election . We saw last time out how effective labours magic money tree was . Tax cuts aren't going to help Thing is Harry the middle classes haven't seen tax cuts. NI increases, withdrawal of family allowance, new taxes on dividend income, etc but remember there was no money left in the Treasury when they came into office. At least they've made an effort to sort the pension crisis that's been put off by successive governments.
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Post by salopstick on May 27, 2019 19:50:24 GMT
At this fragile time they will trust labour less They will have other options now If we brexit the BP become a bit irrelevant. The libs won’t be able to take a remain campaign into a GE once we are out. But change uk might still succeed
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Post by trickydicky73 on May 27, 2019 19:50:39 GMT
They have lost Scotland Been annihilated in wales Now doing their best to alienate working class england Labour are now the party of Owen Jones, hipsters, Shoreditch, The Guardian and Glastonbury. They are not the party of the working man anymore. When they commit to Remain, they will haemmorage voters. Another myth is that Labour is traditionally a party that favours unlimited levels of immigration. Most Labour voters wanted reasonable levels of immigration, and still do. Make no mistake, that's a big reason people voted for Brexit. It's also a huge reason that Wales has done the same.
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Post by felonious on May 27, 2019 19:53:26 GMT
I think the Tories have some other issues as well mate , they have done a lot of damage in middle England with the cuts to public services, bus services , council tax utility bills , property prices, business rates , health service spending, social care funding , schools , libraries, post offices public sector workers haven't seen a pay increase for 10 years , the list is endless and I believe is affecting everyone . This needs to change before another election . We saw last time out how effective labours magic money tree was . Tax cuts aren't going to help At this fragile time they will trust labour less I can’t think of a decent labour politician to put on the national campaign trail Corbyn? Abbott? Thornberry? McDonnell? Slim man? Can you imagine the reception this lot will have up north At least the tories can deliver Brexit with a new leader and say we tried, it took us a while due to Parliament and it’s not time to crack on with the other issues. Only the hard left will be happy with that line up. Just look at the alternatives available only a few years back:
Cooper Burnham Millibands
.... and there are people on here who think Labour are the government in waiting.
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Post by salopstick on May 27, 2019 20:03:09 GMT
At this fragile time they will trust labour less I can’t think of a decent labour politician to put on the national campaign trail Corbyn? Abbott? Thornberry? McDonnell? Slim man? Can you imagine the reception this lot will have up north At least the tories can deliver Brexit with a new leader and say we tried, it took us a while due to Parliament and it’s not time to crack on with the other issues. Only the hard left will be happy with that line up. Just look at the alternatives available only a few years back:
Cooper Burnham Millibands
.... and there are people on here who think Labour are the government in waiting.
Any working class labour voters left would have been disgusted by that fucking disgusting mess thornberry on the bbc last night.
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Post by felonious on May 27, 2019 20:06:50 GMT
Only the hard left will be happy with that line up. Just look at the alternatives available only a few years back:
Cooper Burnham Millibands
.... and there are people on here who think Labour are the government in waiting.
Any working class labour voters left would have been disgusted by that fucking disgusting mess thornberry on the bbc last night. She was awful and God knows where she thinks that smarmy superior attitude will get her with voters. It was almost "Talk to the hand"
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on May 27, 2019 20:13:57 GMT
She was so far up her own arse it was unbelievable, arrogant fucking twat. Vile specimen, I hope I never have to encounter it again.
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Post by felonious on May 27, 2019 20:16:49 GMT
Only the hard left will be happy with that line up. Just look at the alternatives available only a few years back:
Cooper Burnham Millibands
.... and there are people on here who think Labour are the government in waiting.
Any working class labour voters left would have been disgusted by that fucking disgusting mess thornberry on the bbc last night. Thornberry and Campbell, Labour's dream ticket
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Post by mrcoke on May 27, 2019 20:24:24 GMT
A few observations:
1. In the UK and across Europe the established parties have lost out. So why is it when I trawl through the media I read that it has not gone as bad as it could have done so it is a victory for the established parties???!
2. The Labour party are so detached from their traditional support that they have totally lost the plot. The Liberals and Greens have done well by standing strongly for remaining in the EU, so Labour now wants to chase those voters despite the fact that more people voted Brexit and UKIP. Uhh?!
3. Scotland went for SNP. If the Scots want independence then good luck to them. They will need it being only 10% of the population. I just hope they don't expect the English to pay for it. They get more spending per head than England from central government, so without them the rest of us should be better off.
4. Brexit have done well with a low turnout in the areas they were expected to well like Stoke. My theory is that disaffected traditional Labour voters could not bring themselves to vote for Farage and traditional Tory voters could not bring themselves be disloyal and vote against their normal party. Hopefully Brexit have broken the mould and the stay at homers will get out next time and forget personalities and vote for a policy they support.
5. London has again demonstrated that they are out of step with the rest of the country. But no doubt they will continue to believe the rest are out of step with them.
I hope Nigel gives the new Tory party leader and the EU hell. He has a massive support base to work from. No doubt there will be a massive effort by the establishment including media to smear him. Last night the media trotted out 5 or 6 times as many pro-EU supporters as anti-EU supporters, despite the fact that many of the pro-EU had (virtually) no base support to speak from.
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Post by harryburrows on May 27, 2019 20:42:16 GMT
Only the hard left will be happy with that line up. Just look at the alternatives available only a few years back:
Cooper Burnham Millibands
.... and there are people on here who think Labour are the government in waiting.
Any working class labour voters left would have been disgusted by that fucking disgusting mess thornberry on the bbc last night. Yes I agree , I switched over to sky news ,they had Gina Miller 😡😡
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